View Full Version : Is it just me??
Hot_pocket
09-12-2016, 09:26 PM
So I just started my league on Sunday and I heard a lot of people saying they weren't bowling seriously for the first few weeks. Is it just me or is that bad thinking? The first week matters just as much as the 31st in my book because that relaxed mind stay could mean the difference between first and second, am I right? Am I missing something about the first few weeks other than a little average maintenance?
JaxBowlingGuy
09-12-2016, 09:32 PM
For me the first 3 weeks is where I rack up brackets and side pots while on book average lol
Amyers
09-12-2016, 09:49 PM
That's the nice way of saying it. In other words sandbagging
1VegasBowler
09-12-2016, 10:36 PM
That's the nice way of saying it. In other words sandbagging
Can't sum it up any better than that.
Hot_pocket
09-13-2016, 02:22 AM
For me the first 3 weeks is where I rack up brackets and side pots while on book average lol
at least your still trying to shoot
Hot_pocket
09-13-2016, 02:42 AM
That's the nice way of saying it. In other words sandbagging
I feel like some people arent even thinking that. I feel like they just don't think its important to actually bowl.
No doubt, "keeping their average where they can live with it" it's all doing a little bagging.
Had one guy last year began with a 189 avg, ended with a 232, and his team won the league.....imagine that coincidence.
ep1977
09-13-2016, 08:08 AM
So I just started my league on Sunday and I heard a lot of people saying they weren't bowling seriously for the first few weeks. Is it just me or is that bad thinking? The first week matters just as much as the 31st in my book because that relaxed mind stay could mean the difference between first and second, am I right? Am I missing something about the first few weeks other than a little average maintenance?
Most of the higher average bowlers around here want to get the 10 pin drop so they don't bow there best for the first 6-8 weeks of the season. They want to amass a lot of wood underneath them so then when they start putting up 250 plus each week it's unbeatable with the handicap they are now getting.
NewToBowling
09-13-2016, 10:10 AM
Depends on how the payouts are laid out. If it's top heavy there will be a lot of "average manipulation". If it's pretty linear I so go balls out every night.
Amyers
09-13-2016, 11:09 AM
Depends on how the payouts are laid out. If it's top heavy there will be a lot of "average manipulation". If it's pretty linear I so go balls out every night.
What are you talking about I know people who would sandbag a church league with no payouts just to say they won lol.
mc_runner
09-13-2016, 11:25 AM
A lot of people don't bowl over the summer and have somewhat of a downturn as they get comfortable again. Just so happens to work out nicely with the averages too. The way I see it if I'm going to bowl poorly I'm not super upset if it's at the beginning of the year when averages are still being worked out, lol. However I'll also never intentionally throw poorly, either. I think it might be a little bit of that... "well, I'm not throwing that well right now (not on purpose) but that's ok because it helps the average!"
Generally I end up going the other way. I'll start the season lights out and even off about 10 weeks in, lol. Great for the team!
foreverincamo
09-13-2016, 12:42 PM
I'm trying hard! Not scoring very well. Averaging 200 for the first two weeks. Averaged 204 for the season last year so I'm close.
foreverincamo
09-13-2016, 12:44 PM
We do have a guy in the league averaging 245 right now. Like to see him keep that up all year.
Hot_pocket
09-13-2016, 01:13 PM
No doubt, "keeping their average where they can live with it" it's all doing a little bagging.
Had one guy last year began with a 189 avg, ended with a 232, and his team won the league.....imagine that coincidence.
damn... that's obvious dumping if his average was that high last season. Unless he put in some serious work and got lessons or something lol
Hot_pocket
09-13-2016, 01:17 PM
We do have a guy in the league averaging 245 right now. Like to see him keep that up all year.
Got a buddy who averaged about 240 last season so it isn't impossible. He must be pretty good because even on a house shot it isn't all that easy.
1VegasBowler
09-13-2016, 01:29 PM
Last winter my 2 leagues ended up being 178 each. But during the summer I had a coach, added 2 more balls and on Monday's my average is up to 202.
The only Wednesday, so far, was an embarrassment. Had no feel or anything, and I couldn't hit the ocean with an aircraft carrier.
We all have days where sometimes we're the dog, and sometimes we're the fire hydrant. It happens. You have to have a very short memory, hit the reset button and move on, and you can bank on the fact that I won't be in the 400's again for quite a while.
vdubtx
09-13-2016, 01:42 PM
I go out each and every week to just do my best. If that turns out to be starting the season with a 761 series like I did last week, then so be it. I will go out tonight just like I did last week....to do my best. I don't hold back one iota when I bowl. Don't care what it means for handicap etc as I usually don't get any anyway. I'm not a big gambler so doesn't affect me with brackets etc.
damn... that's obvious dumping if his average was that high last season. Unless he put in some serious work and got lessons or something lol
Even his buddies were getting on him about it, he had a 230's avg the past 5 year according to the USBC and was a star bowler in HS and College....but the league did nothing.
Once during the season he threw an open and a gutter to finish the 3rd game, and when his teammate gave him crap he said If I can't get the 8, I don't care... 8 meaning 800 series, if he struck out he would have been 780's or so.
NewToBowling
09-13-2016, 02:17 PM
Even his buddies were getting on him about it, he had a 230's avg the past 5 year according to the USBC and was a star bowler in HS and College....but the league did nothing.
Once during the season he threw an open and a gutter to finish the 3rd game, and when his teammate gave him crap he said If I can't get the 8, I don't care... 8 meaning 800 series, if he struck out he would have been 780's or so.
Sounds like a miserable person to be with. He should just to bowl scratch.
fordman1
09-13-2016, 02:29 PM
In my league we pay by point unless you win one of the halves. Point count.
There is a 10 pin drop rule that states that no bowler with a carryover avg. can drop more than 10 pins all year.
We also use a 21 game cushion so you start with 21 games bowled on your 200 avg. So if you go out the first night and bowl only 500 you only drop to 195.
At $19.50 a point on a 7 point system you can't afford to throw away 100 pins to bag.
Now the college kid would be kicked of my team after doing that once. I would demand he get no score for the game and forfeit the game. Next time he would be out of the league.
mc_runner
09-13-2016, 02:40 PM
I like the 10 pin drop rule. Doesn't eliminate all sandbagging but keeps it in check. I wish my competitive league would vote to adopt it.
fordman1
09-13-2016, 02:54 PM
The cushion works well too.
Don't forget rerating is possible.
Hot_pocket
09-13-2016, 03:48 PM
Last winter my 2 leagues ended up being 178 each. But during the summer I had a coach, added 2 more balls and on Monday's my average is up to 202.
The only Wednesday, so far, was an embarrassment. Had no feel or anything, and I couldn't hit the ocean with an aircraft carrier.
We all have days where sometimes we're the dog, and sometimes we're the fire hydrant. It happens. You have to have a very short memory, hit the reset button and move on, and you can bank on the fact that I won't be in the 400's again for quite a while.
Im telling myself that, but I bowl on a sport shot, 400's are bound to happen when your stuggling. I had a few last season because when your're off, your're screwed lol.
Hot_pocket
09-13-2016, 03:52 PM
Even his buddies were getting on him about it, he had a 230's avg the past 5 year according to the USBC and was a star bowler in HS and College....but the league did nothing.
Once during the season he threw an open and a gutter to finish the 3rd game, and when his teammate gave him crap he said If I can't get the 8, I don't care... 8 meaning 800 series, if he struck out he would have been 780's or so.
wow thats pretty stupid. If he's that good he should try going pro, wait no, that probably would bruise his ego just a tad. Even though a little bit of humbling sounds neccessary.
Hot_pocket
09-13-2016, 03:55 PM
I like the 10 pin drop rule. Doesn't eliminate all sandbagging but keeps it in check. I wish my competitive league would vote to adopt it.
I like it also and it should be a rule for all leagues. There are plenty of guys who bowl leagues to drop their averages for tournaments.
chrono00
09-13-2016, 10:34 PM
We do have a guy in the league averaging 245 right now. Like to see him keep that up all year.
It happens sometimes in those first week. Buddy of mine in the first week of his Thursday league had the front ten before pulling the ball and ending with a 288. Shot 742 for the night. So he starts the league with a 247 average and he usually holds around 195-205 or so.
wow thats pretty stupid. If he's that good he should try going pro, wait no, that probably would bruise his ego just a tad. Even though a little bit of humbling sounds neccessary.
Who knows, he left town maybe he did go somewhere to try to get on the tour. With the comment could be he lost the ball into the ditch and was trying to cover with his buddy. There was no doubt he wasn't trying the first 1/2 of the season and that was unfortunate.
In my league we pay by point unless you win one of the halves. Point count.
There is a 10 pin drop rule that states that no bowler with a carryover avg. can drop more than 10 pins all year.
We also use a 21 game cushion so you start with 21 games bowled on your 200 avg. So if you go out the first night and bowl only 500 you only drop to 195.
At $19.50 a point on a 7 point system you can't afford to throw away 100 pins to bag.
Now the college kid would be kicked of my team after doing that once. I would demand he get no score for the game and forfeit the game. Next time he would be out of the league.
In an example of be careful what you wish for.....that guy is gone but they replaced him with a guy who averages 250+ ......
fordman1
09-14-2016, 08:45 AM
It happens sometimes in those first week. Buddy of mine in the first week of his Thursday league had the front ten before pulling the ball and ending with a 288. Shot 742 for the night. So he starts the league with a 247 average and he usually holds around 195-205 or so.
Perfect example of why my league rules are better. In my league you buddy would be 206 in week 2.
fordman1
09-14-2016, 08:50 AM
Tony
The league has a 1050 team cap. So if the other 4 are under 800 that is fine. Just bowl up to your potential. Besides there are not that many 250 bowlers around. Especially wanting to bowl in a H\C league.
jab5325
09-14-2016, 08:55 AM
This is why I've committed to only doing scratch this year.
chrono00
09-14-2016, 09:25 AM
Perfect example of why my league rules are better. In my league you buddy would be 206 in week 2.
It's a semi competitive mixed league so I don't think that league worries too much about that stuff
fordman1
09-14-2016, 11:18 AM
This is why I've committed to only doing scratch this year.
You can't do that here with very few scratch leagues. Besides the ones we do have are not for bowlers under 220 minimum.
Tony
The league has a 1050 team cap. So if the other 4 are under 800 that is fine. Just bowl up to your potential. Besides there are not that many 250 bowlers around. Especially wanting to bowl in a H\C league.
I'm not worried, it's not a big money league and the spread from first to last isn't a huge difference in money. The 250 guy is a good guy, likes to joke around, brings about 12 balls with him and I try to get him to use them all. We have talked about putting a team cap into effect, probably will happen if we make it reasonable, we are at 100% of 220 now and a motion to bump it to 230 almost passed at the last meeting. It's a 4 man league and they are probably close to 900. There is a shortage of scratch leagues around here so the guys that love to bowl and want to play in 3 or more leagues have to join H/C leagues.
fordman1
09-14-2016, 11:42 AM
So if he hits his average you have to bowl 30 over yours to beat him? Just seems a little unfair.
mc_runner
09-14-2016, 04:22 PM
That's assuming the dude will carry a 250 average for the full season. Not very likely.
classygranny
09-14-2016, 11:03 PM
One of my leagues has a rule that your entering average for the first 9 games is your average from the previous year's league, or the summer league average, or the highest book average, and if none of those then establish with first three games.
When using the entering average for 9 games, it keeps some of the sandbagging out of the league. Then after 9 games, you still have fluctuation in averages, but not as much. I like it better than establishing the first night and going from there. On my Monday league, I started at about a 173, and bowled a 467 this week, so next week I will be at 164 which is about 20 pins under what my average should be. And believe me, it was not a sandbagging issue as I don't have that in my blood. Just ask anyone, I was pretty upset with the sub 500 series.
billf
09-15-2016, 08:58 AM
Rolled a 692 Sunday, 490 Monday and 654 Tuesday. I don't need to sandbag, I just need to show up and one of the league days will just suck so bad to even everything out.
Amyers
09-15-2016, 09:36 AM
Rolled a 692 Sunday, 490 Monday and 654 Tuesday. I don't need to sandbag, I just need to show up and one of the league days will just suck so bad to even everything out.
Good to see its not just me then.
RobLV1
09-15-2016, 10:24 AM
I don't know if it's just in Vegas, but each year I'm seeing bigger and bigger differences in pairs of lanes. Yesterday in my Doubles League, I shot 207-219 on lanes 21-22, then moved to 11-12 where I shot 189-160. While my partner had a very big 255 in the third game, by the fourth game, no-one on the pair could strike on both sides. Two of us were hitting the left lane and lost on the right, while the other two were hitting the right and lost on the left. This seems to be happening more and more. Could it be that the lifespan of the synthetic lanes put in in the early nineties is reaching it's conclusion?
ep1977
09-15-2016, 10:43 AM
I don't know if it's just in Vegas, but each year I'm seeing bigger and bigger differences in pairs of lanes. Yesterday in my Doubles League, I shot 207-219 on lanes 21-22, then moved to 11-12 where I shot 189-160. While my partner had a very big 255 in the third game, by the fourth game, no-one on the pair could strike on both sides. Two of us were hitting the left lane and lost on the right, while the other two were hitting the right and lost on the left. This seems to be happening more and more. Could it be that the lifespan of the synthetic lanes put in in the early nineties is reaching it's conclusion?
In my opinion most bowling centers don't properly take care of the lanes. Conditioning the lanes primary job is to protect the lane surface. Most houses only oil for leagues not realizing or caring that letting the lanes get bone dry is expediting the wear and tear process.
Amyers
09-15-2016, 11:43 AM
I don't know if it's just in Vegas, but each year I'm seeing bigger and bigger differences in pairs of lanes. Yesterday in my Doubles League, I shot 207-219 on lanes 21-22, then moved to 11-12 where I shot 189-160. While my partner had a very big 255 in the third game, by the fourth game, no-one on the pair could strike on both sides. Two of us were hitting the left lane and lost on the right, while the other two were hitting the right and lost on the left. This seems to be happening more and more. Could it be that the lifespan of the synthetic lanes put in in the early nineties is reaching it's conclusion?
What you are seeing is the eventual effect of the changing topography of the lanes set in the 90's. Jeff Rigehl's has written a few articles about it. Even if the synthetic lanes themselves are breaking down evenly (doubtful) the underpinnings underneath haven't shifted even some in the last 15,20,25 years get real. The USBC's lack of enforcing at least semi annual checks on topography is a joke.
1VegasBowler
09-15-2016, 12:18 PM
What you are seeing is the eventual effect of the changing topography of the lanes set in the 90's. Jeff Rigehl's has written a few articles about it. Even if the synthetic lanes themselves are breaking down evenly (doubtful) the underpinnings underneath haven't shifted even some in the last 15,20,25 years get real. The USBC's lack of enforcing at least semi annual checks on topography is a joke.
Unless major work has been done to a center, the checks are only once/year. They can start April 1st, but must be completed by August 31st each year.
Personally, I would like to see semi-annual inspections. But it is time consuming and is done on weekends early in the morning, and takes about an hour or so to complete if we have enough people. And since we have 17 centers to inspect, this is a 2 month process.
While I cannot speak for any other USBCA, I know that here in Southern Nevada, we take topography readings on every lane, at every center in our jurisdiction (along with all of the other requirements set forth by USBC).
Also understand that the inspections are all confidential as well, and we cannot release any information to anybody except for the center representative & the USBC.
When there are discrepancies from the specifications to the actual readings, the center is required to fix the issues by a certain date and has to be reinspected before the center can be certified.
There are times when I have to use 2 different balls on a pair of lanes, and there could be a host of reasons for that. Heck, I've had times when my plastic ball will take an abrupt left turn on one lane and not move at all on the other.
Could that be from the oiling machine? Could it be topography? Could it be due to transition? Your guess would be as good as anybody's for the reason(s).
That's assuming the dude will carry a 250 average for the full season. Not very likely.
Might drop a little but has been in the 240's for several years so probably won't drop a lot.
The other night we had another guy shoot an 840, so he might give a run at top average too....
So if he hits his average you have to bowl 30 over yours to beat him? Just seems a little unfair.
True, but I gave up on life being fair a long time ago so I'm not going to let losing a game of bowling bother me too much. I bowled another guy last week shot 235, 300, 255 and I shot 201 the first game and 234 the second game with 33 pins of cap and lost both ....
Good to see its not just me then.
I'm right there with you, shot a 612, 502 , can't wait to see what happens tomorrow !
Amyers
09-15-2016, 01:10 PM
Unless major work has been done to a center, the checks are only once/year. They can start April 1st, but must be completed by August 31st each year.
Personally, I would like to see semi-annual inspections. But it is time consuming and is done on weekends early in the morning, and takes about an hour or so to complete if we have enough people. And since we have 17 centers to inspect, this is a 2 month process.
While I cannot speak for any other USBCA, I know that here in Southern Nevada, we take topography readings on every lane, at every center in our jurisdiction (along with all of the other requirements set forth by USBC).
Also understand that the inspections are all confidential as well, and we cannot release any information to anybody except for the center representative & the USBC.
When there are discrepancies from the specifications to the actual readings, the center is required to fix the issues by a certain date and has to be reinspected before the center can be certified.
There are times when I have to use 2 different balls on a pair of lanes, and there could be a host of reasons for that. Heck, I've had times when my plastic ball will take an abrupt left turn on one lane and not move at all on the other.
Could that be from the oiling machine? Could it be topography? Could it be due to transition? Your guess would be as good as anybody's for the reason(s).
The annual check USBC currently mandates is only a spot check that doesn't require inspection of the lanes as a whole. When this rule was originally written lanes were wood and resurfaced yearly so something missed wasn't a huge deal it would be taken care of at the next resurface. That doesn't happen in the modern era with synthetics. The allowances are ridiculous anyway allowing for 40/1000 of variance over the entire lane but the entire lane is never inspected and differences as little as 2/1000 have been shown to effect ball motion. Something tells me we can do better than a standard set in 1939 for dealing with an entirely different type of surface
RobLV1
09-15-2016, 01:11 PM
Unless major work has been done to a center, the checks are only once/year. They can start April 1st, but must be completed by August 31st each year.
Personally, I would like to see semi-annual inspections. But it is time consuming and is done on weekends early in the morning, and takes about an hour or so to complete if we have enough people. And since we have 17 centers to inspect, this is a 2 month process.
While I cannot speak for any other USBCA, I know that here in Southern Nevada, we take topography readings on every lane, at every center in our jurisdiction (along with all of the other requirements set forth by USBC).
Also understand that the inspections are all confidential as well, and we cannot release any information to anybody except for the center representative & the USBC.
When there are discrepancies from the specifications to the actual readings, the center is required to fix the issues by a certain date and has to be reinspected before the center can be certified.
There are times when I have to use 2 different balls on a pair of lanes, and there could be a host of reasons for that. Heck, I've had times when my plastic ball will take an abrupt left turn on one lane and not move at all on the other.
Could that be from the oiling machine? Could it be topography? Could it be due to transition? Your guess would be as good as anybody's for the reason(s).
What you failed to includ is the fact that when a lane is out of compliance at one point, readings can be taken three feet up or three feet back that will cancel out the "out of compliance" area if either is O.K. Six feet is an awfully large area to find one spot in compliance in my humble opinion. Since lane inspections to certify 300 games were discontinued years ago, lane inspections have become a joke.
NewToBowling
09-15-2016, 01:12 PM
My series usually hover around 600 (590, 595, 598, etc). Problem is the individual games usually aren't close. 230+180+180, etc
1VegasBowler
09-15-2016, 01:26 PM
The annual check USBC currently mandates is only a spot check that doesn't require inspection of the lanes as a whole. When this rule was originally written lanes were wood and resurfaced yearly so something missed wasn't a huge deal it would be taken care of at the next resurface. That doesn't happen in the modern era with synthetics. The allowances are ridiculous anyway allowing for 40/1000 of variance over the entire lane but the entire lane is never inspected and differences as little as 2/1000 have been shown to effect ball motion. Something tells me we can do better than a standard set in 1939 for dealing with an entirely different type of surface
We make our checks at 15, 30 & 50ft. And I agree that the entire lane should be checked, but unfortunately this is literally back breaking. Being bent over for 20+ lanes for 60ft would be a killer.
Until they can come up with a machine that can take those reading for 60ft, we have to make due with what we have.
While there are a lot of things I could say that would be negative, I have to be very careful as to what I say and how I say it. Being on the local USBC Board of Directors and with other agreements that I have, I can't say things that I did in the past, and I hope you can understand.
I've always been outspoken and will certainly give an opinion. But I have to choose my battles appropriately now.
Amyers
09-15-2016, 01:37 PM
We make our checks at 15, 30 & 50ft. And I agree that the entire lane should be checked, but unfortunately this is literally back breaking. Being bent over for 20+ lanes for 60ft would be a killer.
Until they can come up with a machine that can take those reading for 60ft, we have to make due with what we have.
While there are a lot of things I could say that would be negative, I have to be very careful as to what I say and how I say it. Being on the local USBC Board of Directors and with other agreements that I have, I can't say things that I did in the past, and I hope you can understand.
I've always been outspoken and will certainly give an opinion. But I have to choose my battles appropriately now.
Kegel makes it. It's called a lane mapper and I understand your position.
Mike White
09-15-2016, 01:47 PM
Something tells me we can do better than a standard set in 1939 for dealing with an entirely different type of surface
Physically, yes we could do better.
Politically, no we can't.
Proprietors don't want to be held to any standards that take money from their pockets.
fordman1
09-15-2016, 01:54 PM
True, but I gave up on life being fair a long time ago so I'm not going to let losing a game of bowling bother me too much. I bowled another guy last week shot 235, 300, 255 and I shot 201 the first game and 234 the second game with 33 pins of cap and lost both ....
I was pointing out the fact that the H\C wasn't fair he is getting 30 free pins. 100% of 220 should be 250.
jab5325
09-15-2016, 03:18 PM
Physically, yes we could do better.
Politically, no we can't.
Proprietors don't want to be held to any standards that take money from their pockets.
I have to agree with this--there just isn't money in the sport anymore. Many houses are quite old and would take $500k or more to truly upgrade. You'll never see that money--it's a fool's errand. Until general interest in the sport picks up (if it ever will), we're pretty much stuck with the way things are.
I was pointing out the fact that the H\C wasn't fair he is getting 30 free pins. 100% of 220 should be 250.
There is a good chance it will go to 230 next season as it's been suggested, going to 250 will not happen anytime soon or probably ever. A team max would probably come next
Amyers
09-15-2016, 11:14 PM
Physically, yes we could do better.
Politically, no we can't.
Proprietors don't want to be held to any standards that take money from their pockets.
Unfortunately I can't argue against that. I really wish i could
TonyInPortland
09-15-2016, 11:45 PM
I always hear people say that; I want my average to be as high as possible. If I do start off poorly (like this year, so far) I can always say "well that's good to start low" and in a handicap league I suppose it is. But I still don't like it.
okfoz
09-23-2016, 03:21 PM
Guy on my team, this year is averaging 175, last season he averaged 205 for the year. He practiced none at all over the summer, but he is a huge couch potato, and he has a funny bowling style. I watch him and wondered if he was sandbagging, and as far as I can tell, he just sucks this year...
Guy on my team, this year is averaging 175, last season he averaged 205 for the year. He practiced none at all over the summer, but he is a huge couch potato, and he has a funny bowling style. I watch him and wondered if he was sandbagging, and as far as I can tell, he just sucks this year...
It seems like that's sort of normal for some bowlers although he might be off a little more than the typical guy who quits bowling when leagues are done. I find that I typically start off a little slow and it takes a few weeks to get my timing back , so the average sinks about 10 or 15 pins and then I pull it back up. I have watched a little more this year and there are also some of the guys who start off really strong and drop off during the year, one buddy who ended at 212 last year is at 227 right now after 3 weeks, while another guy on his team that's typically in the 190 / 200 range is down in the 170's
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