Ok besides not bending and form...what's wrong

[LOUVIT]

why do I constantly pull the ball?And anything else you see. I have a bad back and I'm a large short man. ....lol I'm sure I will get a lot of advice here and I hope it helps me and others.....


http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v488/louvit/pull_zpsdtmxwhi9.mp4

[JaxBowlingGuy]

First thing I notice is you're outside the ball almost immediately. As for pulling it looks like since your so outside of the ball Your follow through is going across your body vs straight through.

I think if you can stay behind the ball a little better it would help with straightening the swing and therefore help with pulling it.

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb407/gunsnjax/03F6CF6F-2A4F-46A8-B82E-3533AA2F2F89_zpslzbyc2ot.png (http://s1204.photobucket.com/user/gunsnjax/media/03F6CF6F-2A4F-46A8-B82E-3533AA2F2F89_zpslzbyc2ot.png.html)

http://i1204.photobucket.com/albums/bb407/gunsnjax/905C141A-509B-48CE-A532-8EEC7AFFBFBD_zps1g8a9w39.png (http://s1204.photobucket.com/user/gunsnjax/media/905C141A-509B-48CE-A532-8EEC7AFFBFBD_zps1g8a9w39.png.html)

[billf]

http://i1050.photobucket.com/albums/s413/billf99/lou_zps1qoa5wij.jpg (http://s1050.photobucket.com/user/billf99/media/lou_zps1qoa5wij.jpg.html)

While I agree with StormBowler13's assessment this shot wasn't pulled. This one comes down to lane play and the fact the ball is hitting too much friction too soon causing it to cross over.

[RobLV1]

While it's difficult to assess timing from a back view, the way your right foot comes forward after the shot indicates that your timing may be late. If it is, the most common way to compensate is by pulling the bowling shoulder forward to help to get the ball to catch up with your body. This usually results in a pulled shot.

[LOUVIT]

What does outside the ball mean? I consider that pulling since I was actually trying to get the ball out further to the right. Maybe I'm using the term incorrect, Even when I try playing an inside line my arm does not want to seem to get the ball out to the right. If I could keep the ball to the right I know it will come back in.

[billf]

Look at your hand in Stormbowler13's screen shots. The ball is between you and your hand, hence hand outside the ball. Behind the ball means the palm is behind the ball. Inside the ball means the image from left to right would be body, hand then ball.

Basically take the rear view of the ball and break it into three vertical sections. Inside, behind and outside.

[Mike White]

If I could keep the ball to the right I know it will come back in.

That is the heart of the problem with a THS condition, and a resin ball.

To keep the ball to the right, you have to throw it weaker, and by throwing it weaker, even if it does make it back, it hits like crap.

To control that hook it appears you need to move both your feet, and your target at the arrows left.

When the ball is in the oil, and thrown to the right, it will keep going right until it hits friction.

The problem I see with how you throw the ball is mainly in the gap between the left ankle, and the ball at the point of release.

The ball is out so far and the force from the ball before as leaves your hand, is not being compensated by shifting body weight to the left side of your slide foot.

The result of that imbalance is you have to step to the right to keep from falling over.

If you swing the ball closer to your ankle, less tipping force is generated.

Over time, you learn to prepare for that force from the ball, and compensate for it ahead of time such that without the ball, (like in front of a mirror) you would almost tip over to the left.

[ChuckR]

I agree with most of what is said. I only make one suggestion. LOOK further down the lane for the spot to throw your ball at. A further target and a mental picture of the line that gets there may also help with the delivery.

[djp1080]

What does outside the ball mean? I consider that pulling since I was actually trying to get the ball out further to the right. Maybe I'm using the term incorrect, Even when I try playing an inside line my arm does not want to seem to get the ball out to the right. If I could keep the ball to the right I know it will come back in.

Just came across a series of videos on YouTube regarding the Kegel Training Center in Florida which I feel fits with your questions.
They're showing several drills that their students work on to improve their bowling techniques and that's what it's meant to do.
First is the stance and start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpw5FEe33QM
Second is the swing and slide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrRIb08WThM

Note the position of the student's hand as he swings and delivers the ball. Note how far from his slide foot's ankle the ball is. Note the student's finish position at the foul line as he posts his shot. Note that the bowling hand is positioned in such a way that the fingers are underneath the ball and the thumb is essentially pointing toward the right gutter.
Even with our older bodies we should be able to improve our form to come closer to what the student does in the videos mentioned above. If you're not able to bend your knees like you did many years ago, that's okay; however, keeping your hand behind the ball is important with your fingers underneath. You'll see that it will keep you from pulling the ball off to the left.
Hope this helps...

[LOUVIT]

Look at your hand in Stormbowler13's screen shots. The ball is between you and your hand, hence hand outside the ball. Behind the ball means the palm is behind the ball. Inside the ball means the image from left to right would be body, hand then ball.

Basically take the rear view of the ball and break it into three vertical sections. Inside, behind and outside.


Dam you are correct....that was I problem that i thought I had corrected. I start with my thumb at 1 o'clock and I am again turning the hand on the swing
I also see where the ball is not close to my body.I'll work on these 2 for now starting tomorrow morning..thanks... I just watched this video like 10 time after reading the reponses and now see it all/ I was lucky enough to have my son and grandson there to video a bit. I didn't want to ruin their outing by being too serious. I need to set up my phone somehow to video myself.

[billf]

Videoing yourself is a real PITA (pain in the a$$). It's almost impossible to get the correct angle, full frame, over the throwing shoulder needed for accurate analysis by yourself.
Instead bring your son and grandson and make it a game with your grandson. Have your son video you both. Then you can compare to each other and have video copies of the memories together.

[LOUVIT]

Videoing yourself is a real PITA (pain in the a$$). It's almost impossible to get the correct angle, full frame, over the throwing shoulder needed for accurate analysis by yourself.
Instead bring your son and grandson and make it a game with your grandson. Have your son video you both. Then you can compare to each other and have video copies of the memories together.


lol My grandson is 6, and throws the ball down like a basketball......

I can't believe that I am still turning my wrist and not staying behind the ball, that is the one thing that I concentrate on most. I do have an issue caused by my back with turning my arm/wrist outward.(Ex..you know when people give you change when you buy something and they put the bills in your hand and then the coins on top..I usually drop the coins...lol) Is there a wrist brace that would help keeping me under or behind the ball?

[djp1080]

Louvit, I feel your pain. Yes, there is a tool that might help, but it won't do the trick. Try something that worked for me if you would.
On your backswing try turning your hand slightly clockwise. When you do it for the first time, you'll think that your palm will be facing the wall to your right. Actually try it at home first by just doing a simple swing of the ball in an area with some room around you. Turn your head and watch the ball and your hand. Get a feeling for keeping your hand behind the ball.
When you get down to the lanes, get set up on the lane and do a couple of test swings before going ahead. Then go for it.
Take a look at those drill videos I posted earlier and see if you can post your shots. Once you get your hand behind the ball and you can post your shots, you'll be in business. I hope.
Good luck!

[billf]

^^^^Exactly

[LOUVIT]

Louvit, I feel your pain. Yes, there is a tool that might help, but it won't do the trick. Try something that worked for me if you would.
On your backswing try turning your hand slightly clockwise. When you do it for the first time, you'll think that your palm will be facing the wall to your right. Actually try it at home first by just doing a simple swing of the ball in an area with some room around you. Turn your head and watch the ball and your hand. Get a feeling for keeping your hand behind the ball.
When you get down to the lanes, get set up on the lane and do a couple of test swings before going ahead. Then go for it.
Take a look at those drill videos I posted earlier and see if you can post your shots. Once you get your hand behind the ball and you can post your shots, you'll be in business. I hope.
Good luck!


thanks!!!!!

[RobLV1]

Now that we've all speculated, what does your coach say?

[LOUVIT]

Now that we've all speculated, what does your coach say?


I showed him this post and he agrees and also he has told me about my hand many times. It's a mental block I guess. I am going to take a session with him soon to reinforce some stuff. he is on here as Tampabaybob....

We were working on 1 or 2 things at a time, I stopped the coaching for a while so it's my fault. You can't get one or 2 lessons and fix everything...When I'm bowling I think I am doing what I was taught, until your coach stands and watches you and say's no you are not doing what you think you are doing........

[RobLV1]

Though we've never met in person, I've known Bob for a long time as we were both involved with BowlingIntel. The next time you practice, try this: try to throw a back-up ball, imagining that there is an eye in the middle of the inside of your elbow. That eye should never leave your intended target line. Really work on keep your hand on the inside of the ball until you can successfully back it up, or at least roll it over the thumb hole. Once you can do that, begin to rotate your hand counter clockwise, making sure that your thumb never goes left of the twelve o'clock position. Rotate through the ball, not around it. Here's the rub: if your timing is late and the ball is behind you when you get to the foul line, it is impossible not to come over the top of the ball. The good news is that there is a drill that will help you with both issues at once. Start about three to four feet from the foul line with your left foot just slightly in front of your right. Let the ball swing back and forth two or three times, keeping your hand on the inside of the ball. When you are ready to release, slide forward, making sure that your slide starts when the ball is at the top of the backswing. If the ball is still going back when you start your slide, your timing will be late. Good luck, and say "Hi" to Bob for me when you see him.

Rob Mautner

[LOUVIT]

I have never wore a brace, I am thinking of getting this to try, just seems to me that it will affect how the ball will fit my hand since it covers the palm and the thumb crease.. Am I correct? I read the reviews and all seem to love it on BB.com..

also how do you pick a size, I have small hands but not skinny...I guess a large

http://www.bowlingball.com/products/accessories/bowlingball.com/10022/kool-kontrol-wrist-positioner-right-handed.html

[Amyers]

I have never wore a brace, I am thinking of getting this to try, just seems to me that it will affect how the ball will fit my hand since it covers the palm and the thumb crease.. Am I correct? I read the reviews and all seem to love it on BB.com..

also how do you pick a size, I have small hands but not skinny...I guess a large

http://www.bowlingball.com/products/accessories/bowlingball.com/10022/kool-kontrol-wrist-positioner-right-handed.html

The braces do effect fit and don't expect it really to solve either of the problems your having. A brace will not generally help a lot with getting your hand properly inside the ball or keep you from turning your wrist. The braces are great if you have weak wrist and the ball breaks back but doesn't help a lot with getting behind the ball and doesn't stop early turn at all in my opinion.

[bowl1820]

The next time you practice, try this: try to throw a back-up ball, imagining that there is an eye in the middle of the inside of your elbow.

This idea helps I've tried it.

Heres from a old post to go along with this.

A bowler was having similar problem with over rotation as you can see here:
http://s5.postimg.org/l7gu1chhj/overroation2.jpg
This is part of the reply they got on how to stop it.




"What you have stumbled on is a situation where your conscious and sub-conscious are effectively fighting each other in order to arrive a a mid point, in this case, a proper hand position and rotation.

To explain:

When you bowl normally, (ie rotating too early) it feels, to you, like you ARE behind the ball!. Therefore when you try to stay behind the ball, you are feeling like you are staying behind the ball when you are in fact over rotating.

To fix this you need to feel like you are throwing a back up ball.

What this does is create a conflict between your sub-conscious mind (which is under the erroneous assumption that you are going to send the ball into the right hand gutter) and your conscious mind (which knows you have almost no chance of doing this.) The conflict between the two areas of your mind end up causing your body to find the mid point between over rotating and backing the ball up, ie, staying behind the ball until your thumb exits and then creating the type of rotation you described above.

Putting it simply, to fix a chronic problem, you attempt to make the opposite error and your mind/body almost invariably find the mid point, that being your intended execution. I know it sounds a bit "Mad Scientist Weekly", but it works in the vast majority of cases."

[RobLV1]

The braces do effect fit and don't expect it really to solve either of the problems your having. A brace will not generally help a lot with getting your hand properly inside the ball or keep you from turning your wrist. The braces are great if you have weak wrist and the ball breaks back but doesn't help a lot with getting behind the ball and doesn't stop early turn at all in my opinion.

I have to agree with Amyers here about the brace having no effect on staying behind the ball; that's totally on you, the bowler. As to what they do, I can speak from my own experience. I have bowled both with a brace and without a brace. I am currently using one, for one reason only. I tend to track the ball very high, often clipping the thumb hole on the first rotation off my hand. The brace lowers my track just enough to keep it off of the thumb hole. Other than that, I honestly find it to be kind of cumbersome, since I have to free my fingers from it to shoot at right corner spares.

[LOUVIT]

This idea helps I've tried it.

Heres from a old post to go along with this.

A bowler was having similar problem with over rotation as you can see here:
http://s5.postimg.org/l7gu1chhj/overroation2.jpg
This is part of the reply they got on how to stop it.




"What you have stumbled on is a situation where your conscious and sub-conscious are effectively fighting each other in order to arrive a a mid point, in this case, a proper hand position and rotation.

To explain:

When you bowl normally, (ie rotating too early) it feels, to you, like you ARE behind the ball!. Therefore when you try to stay behind the ball, you are feeling like you are staying behind the ball when you are in fact over rotating.

To fix this you need to feel like you are throwing a back up ball.

What this does is create a conflict between your sub-conscious mind (which is under the erroneous assumption that you are going to send the ball into the right hand gutter) and your conscious mind (which knows you have almost no chance of doing this.) The conflict between the two areas of your mind end up causing your body to find the mid point between over rotating and backing the ball up, ie, staying behind the ball until your thumb exits and then creating the type of rotation you described above.

Putting it simply, to fix a chronic problem, you attempt to make the opposite error and your mind/body almost invariably find the mid point, that being your intended execution. I know it sounds a bit "Mad Scientist Weekly", but it works in the vast majority of cases."


this sounds so right!!!!!

and to Amyers and Rob. I think I will pass on the brace. It was a shot in the dark and I never even tried one on and hopefully never will....looking forward to the battle of my mind and body tomorrow if I can get a few games in

[bowl1820]

I have to agree with Amyers here about the brace having no effect on staying behind the ball; that's totally on you, the bowler.

While I don't disagree with this, I don't exactly agree with it either.

Over the years I've tried many brace types and talked to people that have used them and read about them.

There are certain types that can cause you to over rotate, top the ball etc. if you don't pay strict attention and learn control the brace and not let it control you.

Most of these are the ones that have extensions for the fingers, either just the index finger or all the fingers.

example the Cobra wrist support:
http://bowlingnewscast.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/14e67__21-3OuoUOML.jpg

This thing is a good training aid, when used and you hold the the ball properly. Your hand is in a good position, slightly on the inside of the ball etc.. But when you go to make a shot, if you don't watch out and that finger will pull your hand around the ball.

Let me put it this way, if you have problem staying behind a ball. It will make it worse, until you learn to stay behind the ball better.


The Kool Kontrol Lovit is looking at though is just standard firm wrist support, so wouldn't have a problem with that. It just firms up the wrist.

[Amyers]

this sounds so right!!!!!

and to Amyers and Rob. I think I will pass on the brace. It was a shot in the dark and I never even tried one on and hopefully never will....looking forward to the battle of my mind and body tomorrow if I can get a few games in

I have no problem with anyone using them myself I know those who do but for me they just never solved any of my problems. The type of problems I have they don't help and they make me feel uncomfortable in the ball. My wife used one for quite a while when she first started and it was a big help for her as it helped her understand what the correct wrist position was although she doesn't use one anymore.

[LOUVIT]

I have no problem with anyone using them myself I know those who do but for me they just never solved any of my problems. The type of problems I have they don't help and they make me feel uncomfortable in the ball. My wife used one for quite a while when she first started and it was a big help for her as it helped her understand what the correct wrist position was although she doesn't use one anymore.


my opinion of them always was that they would affect the hand to ball feel and fit. I like the response some one gave of aiming my hand towards the right wall of the house, (forgot who said that), If I can do that and pull the ball in closer to my body I think I'll be ok or at least a bit better...I am going to try to lean my phone against something and see if I can get another video. I had a go-pro but sold it when I stopped drag racing, who would have thought I'd need it to bowl...lol

[got_a_300]

I use a brace not to make me stay behind the ball or anything like that
I use it to help me cut down on the revs that I put on the ball. I keep
the brace completely straight so I have no cupping of the wrist like I
used to do.

Back in my younger days I had somewhere around maybe 600 to 650+
RPM's on the ball from the way I throwed it back then with a cupped
wrist. Now that I'm older my wrist just can not take all that kind of
punishment anymore.

So in a nut shell I think a wrist brace will not make you stay completely
behind the ball but then again it might help I guess it all depends on
the person throwing the ball.

[LOUVIT]

I use a brace not to make me stay behind the ball or anything like that
I use it to help me cut down on the revs that I put on the ball. I keep
the brace completely straight so I have no cupping of the wrist like I
used to do.

Back in my younger days I had somewhere around maybe 600 to 650+
RPM's on the ball from the way I throwed it back then with a cupped
wrist. Now that I'm older my wrist just can not take all that kind of
punishment anymore.

So in a nut shell I think a wrist brace will not make you stay completely
behind the ball but then again it might help I guess it all depends on
the person throwing the ball.

why would you want to cut revs...lol...this is from a slow rev guy. and yes I can't cup the ball, at 12mph and decent revs for that speed (when I release it right) I can deal with it. My issue is that I am not releasing it correctly

[JaxBowlingGuy]

I use a brace not to make me stay behind the ball or anything like that
I use it to help me cut down on the revs that I put on the ball. I keep
the brace completely straight so I have no cupping of the wrist like I
used to do.

Back in my younger days I had somewhere around maybe 600 to 650+
RPM's on the ball from the way I throwed it back then with a cupped
wrist. Now that I'm older my wrist just can not take all that kind of
punishment anymore.

So in a nut shell I think a wrist brace will not make you stay completely
behind the ball but then again it might help I guess it all depends on
the person throwing the ball.

That's is a crazy high rev rate. Belmo is 600+\-

[got_a_300]

That's is a crazy high rev rate. Belmo is 600+\-

I know it was a really crazy high rev rate back then that's why I always say now days
that belmo wouldn't have had a thing on me when it came to revs back in the day.

That is why I had such an advantage on all of the bowlers back then just like Belmo
has the advantage on the bowlers now days but It just got to where I couldn't handle
the wrist pain from cupping my wrist that much any longer so I had to go to the brace
back then.

Besides on the old wooden lanes back then`it was very hard to maintain a good line
with that many revs because most of the time I was always having to loft the left
gutter out to the 1 or 2 board even on the fresh oil.

[billf]

I never thought of using a brace to cut down on my revs. Wish I had. It took me forever to get my rev rate to where I can usually control it.
Yes, as hard as it is for some people to cup and uncup their wrist fast enough to produce high revs, I have trouble NOT cupping and uncupping quickly. The grass isn't always greener.

[LOUVIT]

Ok bowled today and found it so easy to stay behind the ball and even cup it a bit...lol. the ball was flying just where I wanted it to. So after 2 league weeks averaging 139, I shot 190, 165 and bad last game, I was tired and sweaty 120. last game just couldn't catch a break and missed all corner pins I threw at. but I feel 100% more confident on my release, I need to video it again and see if i am still far away from my led on release. thanks for all the help and explanations on "being outside the ball"