Interesting facts

[NewToBowling]

1) When you throw an optimal strike, the ball will only hit 4 pins

2) The weight of a bowling ball shall not exceed 16 lbs, but there is actually no minimum weight (so yes, go ahead and chuck a 1 lb cork bowling ball)

[zacks]

I think ideally you want the ball to hit the 1-3 pocket, roll through the 5, then split the 8-9. I have heard four pins before and believed that to be the goal, but I now believe a perfect shot to be 5. If the ball only covers the 1-3-5-9, you're relying on the 5 to take out the 8, which will happen 9 times out of 10 anyway, but if we're talking optimal, I want the ball to hit 5 pins. What does everybody else think?

[ep1977]

I think ideally you want the ball to hit the 1-3 pocket, roll through the 5, then split the 8-9. I have heard four pins before and believed that to be the goal, but I now believe a perfect shot to be 5. If the ball only covers the 1-3-5-9, you're relying on the 5 to take out the 8, which will happen 9 times out of 10 anyway, but if we're talking optimal, I want the ball to hit 5 pins. What does everybody else think?

This makes sense. Nothing better than when your ball is still revving hard as it hits the back wall after destroying the rack.

[billf]

5 pins for today's game. The 1,3,5,9 was the days gone by when the balls didn't have the drive of today's.

[Mike White]

5 pins for today's game. The 1,3,5,9 was the days gone by when the balls didn't have the drive of today's.

It's still only 4 pins., the ball doesn't hit the 1-3-5-8-9.

The ball might hit the both the 8 and 9 pins if somehow the 5 pin magically missed both pins, but that isn't going to be an optimal strike.

[billf]

It's still only 4 pins., the ball doesn't hit the 1-3-5-8-9.

The ball might hit the both the 8 and 9 pins if somehow the 5 pin magically missed both pins, but that isn't going to be an optimal strike.


The ball is suppose to split the 8 and 9. I know you disagree with anything the coaching assoc and USBC has declared since the 80s but that doesn't make you correct.

[bowl1820]

The ball is suppose to split the 8 and 9. I know you disagree with anything the coaching assoc and USBC has declared since the 80s but that doesn't make you correct.

I believe 4 & 5 pins are both correct, what changed was where the ball should be dropping off the deck which is about the 20 board (splitting the 8 and 9). Which increases the percentage of hitting the 8 pin should the 5 pin miss.

On the classic strike, the ball hits the 5 pin into the 8 and dropped off more towards the 9 pin as it hit it. Which requires a more optimal hit otherwise you could possibly leave the 8 pin.

On the more modern strike, the ball (in the best case) should still hit the 5 pin into the 8. But should the 5 pin miss. By having the ball now splitting the 8 and 9, The ball would still take out the 8 pin. So reducing the possibility of a 8 pin "Tap".

Though now you see more 9 pin "Taps" by the ball driving in towards the 8 too much.

[Mike White]

I believe 4 & 5 pins are both correct, what changed was where the ball should be dropping off the deck which is about the 20 board (splitting the 8 and 9). Which increases the percentage of hitting the 8 pin should the 5 pin miss.

On the classic strike, the ball hits the 5 pin into the 8 and dropped off more towards the 9 pin as it hit it. Which requires a more optimal hit otherwise you could possibly leave the 8 pin.

On the more modern strike, the ball (in the best case) should still hit the 5 pin into the 8. But should the 5 pin miss. By having the ball now splitting the 8 and 9, The ball would still take out the 8 pin. So reducing the possibility of a 8 pin "Tap".

Though now you see more 9 pin "Taps" by the ball driving in towards the 8 too much.

Considering just the 5-8-9 combination, and given a shot that results in a reasonable angle of entry (i.e. no backup ball) over what board(s) would the ball be at when it makes contact with the 5 pin and causes the 5 pin to miss the 8 pin?

The ball is either on or left of the 20 board, or so far right, the 5 pin slides in front of the 8 pin.

If the 5 pin is consistently missing the 8 pin, you are a long way away from optimal.

By thinking of splitting the 8-9, your trying to solve a problem you don't have.

The 8 pin tap is caused by the 5 pin being moved (by the head pin) before the ball contacts the 5 pin.

It's rare enough that you don't adjust for it without creating another pin (9 pin) to be even more likely.

[fordman1]

Seems like young power players with a lot of ball speed do much better hitting the pocket light. Messenger takes out the 10 and anything else in its way. Kind of irks me when I hit the pocket and leave 8 pins, 9 pins a bunch of 10 pins and 3 or 4 7-10's. All not bad hits just a half of a board or so off. Some kid misses and just grazes the head throws it into the wall and strikes. Probably hitting the 1-3-6-10. So maybe the new game is hitting the pocket a little different.

[zacks]

Considering angles, where the optimal angle of entry is between 3-6 degrees, the 3 degree angle is prone to the ball deflecting off the 5-pin, sending the 5 into the 8-pin and the ball into the 9-pin (higher chance of leaving 10-pin). The 6 degree angle is prone to the ball driving through the 5-pin, sending it between the 8-9, with the ball chasing it and covering both the 8 and 9 in case the 5 doesn't clip one of them. Here you have a greater chance of the ball revving past the 9 pin. I don't think there is a wrong answer, it just depends which side of the range you like to play. Generally the 5 will cover the 8 in either case, but when you leave a stone 8, it's because the ball deflected to the 9 and the 5 passed in front of the 8.

[Mike White]

Generally the 5 will cover the 8 in either case, but when you leave a stone 8, it's because the ball deflected to the 9 and the 5 passed in front of the 8.

If your 5 pin is passing in front of the 8 pin, you've thrown a weak shot.

A stone 8 pin has the 5 pin go between the 8 and 9 pins, but that only happens on those rare shots where the head pin moves the 5 pin to the right before the ball hits the 5 pin.

Here is one of many examples of "stone" 8 pins on Youtube.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APaxT5KMwhc

[zacks]

If your 5 pin is passing in front of the 8 pin, you've thrown a weak shot.

You're right. Improper use of the word stone. What I described would be a very weak shot.

[billf]

https://youtu.be/t3X7qebrLME

In the end it doesn't really matter lol

[J Anderson]

5 pins for today's game. The 1,3,5,9 was the days gone by when the balls didn't have the drive of today's.

It's still four but since the ball is exiting the pin deck on board 20 it appears to the average human that the ball is splitting the 8 and 9 pins even though the 8 is no longer there to be hit.

[Aslan]

I think everyone is right on this one.

Yes, "ideally"...it's 4 pins...because ideally speaking...with all pins in their proper positions...the 5-pin will almost always take out the 8-pin so the ball never touches it.

Yet, Bowl1820 is also correct...that if you're striking and your ball is running directly over the 9-pin...your ball is not hitting optimally and you'll likely start leaving flat 10s in upcoming frames. A ball (for a righty) that exits too far right,,,is a sign you should make a slight (0.5 board eyes/0.5 board feet) move right to get a slightly better angle...

OR...it's time to ball down to a ball that hooks a little later...because you're likely seeing weak hits due to transition.

The problem with all of the stuff listed above...is you need to be very consistent and have an almost flawless physical game and release...and the concentration to watch the ball as it travels through the pins...otherwise it's all theoretical.

[bowl1820]

I think everyone is right on this one.

Yes, "ideally"...it's 4 pins...because ideally speaking...with all pins in their proper positions...the 5-pin will almost always take out the 8-pin so the ball never touches it.

Yet, Bowl1820 is also correct...that if you're striking and your ball is running directly over the 9-pin...your ball is not hitting optimally and you'll likely start leaving flat 10s in upcoming frames. A ball (for a righty) that exits too far right,,,is a sign you should make a slight (0.5 board eyes/0.5 board feet) move right to get a slightly better angle...

OR...it's time to ball down to a ball that hooks a little later...because you're likely seeing weak hits due to transition.

The problem with all of the stuff listed above...is you need to be very consistent and have an almost flawless physical game and release...and the concentration to watch the ball as it travels through the pins...otherwise it's all theoretical.

Which is pretty much what is showed in the video "Bowling Instruction - Ball up or Ball down, when and why." that was posted by JasonNJ here:
http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/19073-Interesting-video-about-ball-motion-and-balling-up-and-down


https://youtu.be/S5p5T4JIuqU

[2handedsniper]

Only 8 people have ever bowled a 292

[JaxBowlingGuy]

Only 8 people have ever bowled a 292

Considering a 292 isn't tracked, where would this stat come from?

[bowl1820]

Considering a 292 isn't tracked, where would this stat come from?

I believe it is tracked to some extent it's mentioned in USBC trivia articles.

But it's more than 8 people now, last I saw it was somewhere around 20.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

It could have been counted when an 11 in a row was submitted but since those are no longer acknowledged how would anyone even know?

[2handedsniper]

i wonder if any1 will average 300

[got_a_300]

i wonder if any1 will average 300

In a word NO as no one is ever going to be that perfect not
even E.A.R.L. the robot can not average 300 even though it
can reproduce the exact same shot every time.

[NewToBowling]

Heck, it's hard to average 260+ on walled up house shot over the course of a season

[fordman1]

Data can be made to say what ever you want it to say. I have averaged 300 for one game. Also 262 for 3 games. Another example are poles.

[NewToBowling]

Data can be made to say what ever you want it to say. I have averaged 300 for one game. Also 262 for 3 games. Another example are poles.

Stripper poles I hope

[fordman1]

Oops polls. :eek:

[Mike White]

In a word NO as no one is ever going to be that perfect not
even E.A.R.L. the robot can not average 300 even though it
can reproduce the exact same shot every time.

What E.A.R.L. lacks is Bowler IQ.

If you were as consistent as E.A.R.L., you would know to make minor adjustments after each shot so the depletion of oil won't interfere with your next shot.

[NewToBowling]

What E.A.R.L. lacks is Bowler IQ.

If you were as consistent as E.A.R.L., you would know to make minor adjustments after each shot so the depletion of oil won't interfere with your next shot.

Pretty sure that can be programmed especially with blue oil. Have EARL take a scan of oil and find the line to play before each toss

[got_a_300]

Pretty sure that can be programmed especially with blue oil. Have EARL take a scan of oil and find the line to play before each toss

I still don't think E.A.R.L could average 300 even if it could be programmed to
read the oil as a solid 8, 9, or a 10 pin would still get him somewhere along
the way.

[NewToBowling]

I still don't think E.A.R.L could average 300 even if it could be programmed to
read the oil as a solid 8, 9, or a 10 pin would still get him somewhere along
the way.

True, there is some luck involved in 300/900. But he would probably average 290+

[Mike White]

Pretty sure that can be programmed especially with blue oil. Have EARL take a scan of oil and find the line to play before each toss

Scanning the oil is not only a difficult task, even if you could get the info 100% accurate, how would you take that data and convert it into a shot selection?

What would be more effective is to start with a "systematic wild *** guess", and launch the ball.

Using CATS data, determine the actual path of the ball, and how it differs from the expected path.

Use that information to update the decision process on the next shot.

Also take into consideration, that last shot has now altered the pattern slightly.

After a half dozen "warmup" shots providing current data, combined with perfect recall of every shot made in the past, EARL's brain (if it had one) would be able to build a functional model of the oil pattern, and develop a plan of attack.

[Mike White]

I still don't think E.A.R.L could average 300 even if it could be programmed to
read the oil as a solid 8, 9, or a 10 pin would still get him somewhere along
the way.

What EARL could do, that a human can't, is determine how much of a error in ball placement was involved in leaving the 8, 9, or 10.

Then stay in the center of the range that minimizes the potential of leaving the 8, 9, or 10.

A computer doesn't solve problems the way humans would solve the same problem.

A computer is programmed to take advantage of it's strengths, while hopefully avoiding situations that expose it's weaknesses.

[NewToBowling]

Scanning the oil is not only a difficult task, even if you could get the info 100% accurate, how would you take that data and convert it into a shot selection?

What would be more effective is to start with a "systematic wild *** guess", and launch the ball.

Using CATS data, determine the actual path of the ball, and how it differs from the expected path.

Use that information to update the decision process on the next shot.

Also take into consideration, that last shot has now altered the pattern slightly.

After a half dozen "warmup" shots providing current data, combined with perfect recall of every shot made in the past, EARL's brain (if it had one) would be able to build a functional model of the oil pattern, and develop a plan of attack.

Your answered your own question (see last sentence, kind of what I was getting at). Give EARL practice shots to find line. EARL would watch every other bowler to see how their balls react and how it's own ball reacted on previous tosses and adjust accordingly. With all that data input (along with data from all available bowling balls) I'm sure EARL can bowl close to 290-295 average because the laydown, speed, axis tilt, rotation, revs would be exactly the same (something humans can't replicate). 99% if not all spares (excluding crazy splits) would be converted with spare ball.

[Mike White]

Your answered your own question (see last sentence, kind of what I was getting at). Give EARL practice shots to find line. EARL would watch every other bowler to see how their balls react and how it's own ball reacted on previous tosses and adjust accordingly. With all that data input (along with data from all available bowling balls) I'm sure EARL can bowl close to 290-295 average because the laydown, speed, axis tilt, rotation, revs would be exactly the same (something humans can't replicate). 99% if not all spares (excluding crazy splits) would be converted with spare ball.

The measuring of other bowlers shots not something EARL should put much weight in.

EARL knows a lot more about EARL's shots because it is choosing parameters such as speed, rev rate, tilt, axis rotation.

For other bowlers those have to be measured. Subject to the inaccuracy of the measuring equipment.

Deciding what to try can be very accurate,

Throwing the ball to match what is being tried can be accurate, but it's a machine that has some error in it's tolerances.

Measuring what other bowlers have done is the lowest level of accuracy of the 3.

Weather prediction models can be made very accurate, if you know to conditions of the environment at any given moment.

The problem is in the measuring of the environment, a small error in measurement can make the model significantly wrong over time.

You've heard the phrase "garbage in, garbage out".

Garbage in this case is the difference between your estimate of a balls status (location, direction, speed, etc) and the actual status to infinite accuracy (i.e. reality)

Modeling future events from a current measurement is "garbage in, garbage out" on steroids, because the output from one cycle of the model is used as input to the next cycle.

[NewToBowling]

Truth be told the biggest variance is the human element. We'd like to think that we can have the same laydown, speed, revs, mark every shot. But there are going to be differences no matter how minor on each and every shot. Take that out of the equation (which EARL should be able to do) and majority of the issue is resolved. Now if you had a pro bowler knowledgeable in lane/oil transition inputting data into EARL before each shot it would be a beast. Basically input data such as Target Mark=15 Board at Arrow, Speed=Unchanged, etc...next shot feet 2 boards left, target 2 boards left, etc