View Full Version : Video: Where am I going wrong?
bobforsaken
10-07-2016, 11:55 AM
In particular in this one house I struggle. Its almost always problems with coming high on the head pin and I get, it seems, at least 2 splits a game and can't seem to string more than a double together. IF i'm rolling it well (which is hard due to shattered confidence) I can almost count on needing to move before my second shot on a particular lane. So many times I end up finding a line that seems to work Strike-Strike-Split. The shot breaks down so incredibly quickly for me with my soft speed.
This is a video from last week that is pretty typical of the kind of reaction I'm seeing. I'm wondering if any of you out there can see something with physical game or maybe the line I'm playing that can give me a clue as to what I should work on to improve.
http://www.hudl.com/technique/video/view/y0tYUITR?e=6860111
For what its worth, at another house I'm averaging about 20 pins better and can stay lined up much longer.
RobLV1
10-07-2016, 12:18 PM
The only thing that I see is that your follow through is going up, rather than out toward the pins. This is causing you to hit up on the ball which causes it to read earlier. Because of the differences in your averages in the two houses, I think that there is probably an outside cause to your problem. Most likely the two centers use two different types of oil.
Since you realize that you need to move after every shot or two, just do it. Personally, in one of the centers where I bowl, once I throw a strike in practice, I will avoid that line again until the lights come on to avoid having to move in the first frame.
bobforsaken
10-07-2016, 12:48 PM
The only thing that I see is that your follow through is going up, rather than out toward the pins. This is causing you to hit up on the ball which causes it to read earlier. Because of the differences in your averages in the two houses, I think that there is probably an outside cause to your problem. Most likely the two centers use two different types of oil.
Since you realize that you need to move after every shot or two, just do it. Personally, in one of the centers where I bowl, once I throw a strike in practice, I will avoid that line again until the lights come on to avoid having to move in the first frame.
Well you are spot on RE. the Oil. Since they changed the pattern and switched to Kegel Fire conditioner, I think they decided to go with less volume.. the issue with the shot changing so quickly seems to be related to the oil conditioner. It seems I'm constantly guessing... Last night for example, I moved 2&1 off of my previous shot on a lane that stuck and I still came up high for a split. So it was Strike-Strike- (move) Split.
I'll work on my projection down lane.. Thanks!
fokai73
10-09-2016, 04:12 AM
A). Knowing how the ball enters the pocket and pin action are ways to stay ahead of the pattern. Knowing your ball motion I should include too.
B). I watched your swing frame by frame. I see things with your approach/swing which are good, but there are things you can improve too. First, it looks like you're cupping the ball, but un-cup it as you start your push away. Also, most of the ball weight seems to be on your bowling hand. If so, muscling your swing has already started. Your Back swing is then forced. Your non bowling hand should burden at least 70% of the ball weight, start the push away, and your bowling hand is more neutral and relaxed. But I can't tell for sure because the camera is not directly beside you and behind you. (two angles are good for this) For that, I cannot comment much on the push away and the top of your swing.
Another thing too is that, you turn your hand prematurely. Your hand is inside the ball at the top of your swing - very good, but as your ball gets by your belt area on the down swing, your hand starts to turn to the outside - early. Then your elbow get away from body a bit. The face or anterior of the elbow should be facing your target throughout your down swing and follow through. You're diminishing the kinetic power, speed, and leverage by doing this - you're kinda like chicken winging it. Keep elbow close to your body and facing he target. Initially when I saw your big swing, I thought I'd see some speed. But it's lacking. With that said, speed isn't from the arm swing, it's from the lower half of your body. It's Your swing mechanics that is killing the speed and leverage.
At the release point, your ball position is great in relation to your ankle and head. but your hand positions looks weak. Your thumb and fingers seem to exit the same time (or close to it) like a suite case release, unless you prefer it that way. Staying more behind the ball and fingers below the balls equator should be the goal for a lot of bowlers. But to fix the release, the starting point and approach should be fixed first. The release will come. Trust me, your release was like mine over a decade ago.
Personally, about 85% to 90% of the ball weight is held by my non bowling hand. I feel the ball resting on the base of my index finger of my bowling hand and I feel it there throughout my swing till release. I have a shorter swing cycle than yours but produce 18.5 mph at release. At the top of my back swing, my ball stalls for a split second or so as I go into my slide. Here, it's like building up energy, stretching that sling-shot and holding it there, then......whhoooosh then followed by a yo-yo release...
Finally, you can do well with your current style on house shots if you learn how to read ball motion, entry angles, and pin action. Learn these and you can stay ahead of the pattern, you'll be one up against the rest. But if you want better, improving your set up, approach, and seeing a coach will benefit your game. I went from 250 rpm suite case release like yours to 350 releasing behind the ball like a yo-yo lol.
2handedsniper
10-09-2016, 04:15 AM
try to release the ball sooner and don't fist the ball
bowl1820
10-09-2016, 09:24 AM
try to release the ball sooner and don't fist the ball
"fist the ball"?
.........................Oh forget it I can't say it.
https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Computer-Guy-Facepalm.jpg
fortheloveofbowling
10-09-2016, 10:42 AM
"fist the ball"?
.........................Oh forget it I can't say it.
https://imgflip.com/s/meme/Computer-Guy-Facepalm.jpg
Let loose moderator and say it.....
Aslan
10-09-2016, 02:14 PM
Another thing too is that, you turn your hand prematurely. Your hand is inside the ball at the top of your swing - very good, but as your ball gets by your belt area on the down swing, your hand starts to turn to the outside - early. Then your elbow get away from body a bit. The face or anterior of the elbow should be facing your target throughout your down swing and follow through. You're diminishing the kinetic power, speed, and leverage by doing this - you're kinda like chicken winging it. Keep elbow close to your body and facing he target. Initially when I saw your big swing, I thought I'd see some speed. But it's lacking. With that said, speed isn't from the arm swing, it's from the lower half of your body. It's Your swing mechanics that is killing the speed and leverage.
There's no point to being that far inside the ball if you're not going to swing through the ball. If you slow motion your release...you'll see that your hand isn't behind the ball...it's on the outside of the ball. This produces a different axis tilt...a less desirable "90 degree" axis tilt versus a more desirable "60-45 degree" axis tilt.
I'm not near enough of an expert on coaching as some others around here...nor as much of a fisting expert as 2HS...but I think with that sideways rotation...it's likely the ball is losing too much energy to carry at the one house.
fokai73
10-10-2016, 12:05 PM
There's no point to being that far inside the ball if you're not going to swing through the ball. If you slow motion your release...you'll see that your hand isn't behind the ball...it's on the outside of the ball. This produces a different axis tilt...a less desirable "90 degree" axis tilt versus a more desirable "60-45 degree" axis tilt.
The OP's has a mike fagan like back swing at the top, but yes it's all for not with a down swing where the elbow goes away. If everyone watches PDW slow motion release, on the down swing pay attention to his elbow and where it is as it gets parallel with his body. Elbow in, hand behind the ball. If elbow is out, so will be the hand.
Mike White
10-10-2016, 12:28 PM
The OP's has a mike fagan like back swing at the top, but yes it's all for not with a down swing where the elbow goes away. If everyone watches PDW slow motion release, on the down swing pay attention to his elbow and where it is as it gets parallel with his body. Elbow in, hand behind the ball. If elbow is out, so will be the hand.
At the point of release, Pete's hand is not behind the ball, it's well over on the right side of the ball.
I have an image at the release, but for the life of me, I can't get it to upload
I keep getting a white exclamation in a red circle. it's only a 30k jpg.
Must be some other criteria that's causing it to fail.
http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/gg560/icdeadmoney/Pete_zpsnqsq5n9a.jpg
Ok I got it there via photobucket.
fokai73
10-10-2016, 12:57 PM
At the point of release, Pete's hand is not behind the ball, it's well over on the right side of the ball.
I have an image at the release, but for the life of me, I can't get it to upload
I keep getting a white exclamation in a red circle. it's only a 30k jpg.
Must be some other criteria that's causing it to fail.
If I was techy I'd post a picture of the position of PDW of which I'm talking about. I may not have explained it well, my bad. when the ball still by his trail leg, the elbow/arm beside his body, his hand is still behind the ball, not on right of the ball.
RobLV1
10-10-2016, 02:34 PM
The key is when the ball is turned. Most league bowlers turn the ball early and are on the side or the top of the ball at the line. The difference with PDW and many other pros is that they turn through the ball, rather than around it.
Aslan
10-14-2016, 08:19 AM
The key is when the ball is turned. Most league bowlers turn the ball early and are on the side or the top of the ball at the line. The difference with PDW and many other pros is that they turn through the ball, rather than around it.
If I was techy I'd post a picture of the position of PDW of which I'm talking about. I may not have explained it well, my bad. when the ball still by his trail leg, the elbow/arm beside his body, his hand is still behind the ball, not on right of the ball.
Both of these are a combination of what I was going to say in response to Mike's picture.
1) PDW's hand position doesn't turn nearly as soon as the OP's. The OP is already on the outside of the ball before it gets to his ankle on the downswing.
2) The OP (if you watch the follow-through) isn't swinging through the ball as much as he's swinging 'around' it.
And yes, while some of the old timers and PBA50 stars still use more axis rotation and more "hitting up" than their younger counterparts; I don't think thats what they'd do (nor teach) if they were instructing a new bowler. Older bowlers are used to hitting up on the ball and a more 90 degree axis rotation. It feels natural to them. And if they have Hall of Fame skills...they can modify that and make it work on the PBA50 and some PBA events. And thats where every bowler is going to be a bit different. Young-young adult...you probably start from scratch and teach the "right" way. Older bowlers...you try to teach the "right" way...but also utilize whatever they are already doing naturally.
And then it depends on what that bowler's goals are. I coulda quit taking lessons a year ago if my goal was to bowl better on league night. The reason I mention that is; as I start to reach for higher and higher goals...some of the things in my swing/release/approach are going to need to change...because I'm not WRW nor Norm Duke nor Pete Weber. I can't "do it wrong" and still expect to be competitive because I lack the high-level natural ability.
Bowlers have a common misperception (I forgot this for my pet peave list)...that there is "no right way" to bowl. That is 98% misleading/wrong. It would be like me saying that I'm going to ignore every single lesson or piece of advice or instruction that I have received regarding my miserable golf game....because John Daly hits it 400 yards and I want to be just like John Daly...so I'm just going to try and swing like him. Horrible mistake....and one that will cause you to chase your damn golf balls 3 holes over and go through about 15 golf balls that go out of bounds or in the water. There IS a "right way" to bowl. The USBC updates this "right way" from time to time. I said "98%"....because there are going to be about 2% of the population that will bowl "quirky"...usually because of a physical limitation or a really old habit or an injury...and they will bowl at a high level. That doesn't make it ideal. Saying everyone should throw their strike ball at corner pin spares because Norm Duke does...is that same logic. 2% do it well...so I'm going to do THAT! Same thing with WRW's swing. Love WRW...have watched nearly every video of the guy bowling...cheer for him against anyone he ever faces...but trying to emulate his throw is trying to hit that 2% window. And the list goes on and on... You want to bowl 2-handed because Belmo is awesome? Okay...but realize Belmo is not only in that top 2%...he's probably more like top 0.5%. Most two-handers will just end up doing WORSE than had they learned to bowl the "right way". Some will go on to be the next Osku or Kyle Troup...but most will just give up on bowling altogether because bowling 2-handed is rough on the back and isn't that "magic wand" that suddenly makes you a PBA pro.
I don't have enough information on the OP to instruct him...nor am I qualified to do so...I can only assume that since he posted the video and asked for assistance...that he was open to changing his game to improve. Keeping that hand behind the ball longer...is the most obvious. Much of what he's doing is actually pretty good.
fordman1
10-14-2016, 02:35 PM
Which style would you say is best for longevity? I have read that the two handers are not going to last but what about the old or new styles?
I can't see E. J. Tackett throwing the ball the way he does when he is 40.
foreverincamo
10-16-2016, 04:49 PM
EJ will adapt just like PDW did. When Pete was 17 and joined the tour, his backswing was straight over his head at the top. Add to that he cranked the plastic Columbia 300 he used as hard as he could for years. Watch him now and he's relatively tame compared to his early career.
RobLV1
10-16-2016, 05:59 PM
Some very interesting things here.
1.) Bowlers said the same things about Amleto in the eighties. Where did it get him? He still a dominant force on the PBA50 Tour, despite his high backswing and turning the cr*p out of the ball.
2.) Pete changed his style for one reason, and one reason only: it was the only way that he could win with reactive resin balls. He went three years without a win until he adapted.
3.) Hopefully EJ won't have to find out if he can still throw the ball like he does when he's 40. I have a hunch he'll switch to golf long before then, and make some real money!
NewToBowling
10-17-2016, 10:05 AM
Yep, they keep mentioning EJ is a heck of a golfer. Of course it's a lot harder to get on the PGA tour unless you're elite so probably why EJ is sticking to bowling now but if he can I say go for it. $1M+ purses vs $50K
bobforsaken
10-21-2016, 10:26 AM
fokai73, Great information.. Thank you for taking the time. I've seen that in my videos before and its definitely something that has plagued me. In drills I do it fine, but as soon as I get to a full approach I turn early or end up with a spinner release.. There doesn't seem to be the in-between that I'm looking for. I'll try just focusing on the index finger balance and work on my setup to take the ball weight out of my bowling arm. THX
fokai73
10-25-2016, 01:28 AM
fokai73, Great information.. Thank you for taking the time. I've seen that in my videos before and its definitely something that has plagued me. In drills I do it fine, but as soon as I get to a full approach I turn early or end up with a spinner release.. There doesn't seem to be the in-between that I'm looking for. I'll try just focusing on the index finger balance and work on my setup to take the ball weight out of my bowling arm. THX
no problem sir. but to be honest, it's best to find a qualified coach. I've seen many (well known) coaches over the years and most didn't address why I turned my hand early. Well, let me rephrase that. They didn't really explain why I did it and what really causes early turn. Some did tell me to do certain drills, or thought process, or things like these - lead with ring finger, elbow facing the target, etc....Anyway, those tips didn't really solve my problem or tell me the cause. To make a long story short, two other coaches pointed out my "dip" in the first part of my approach. My "crouching tiger, hidden dragon" approach lol. These two coaches have their philosophy about the physical game, but in the end, both were right. Only one of them explained it completely and I finally understood.
In addition to what I've learned from them, I also studied my own physiology. For example, my elbow position facing forward in relation to my hand position at a relaxed state. Likewise, my hand in an Anterior position or palm facing forward (hand at 6 0'clock behind the ball), my elbow is actually facing away and right of my target when I'm behind the ball. For example: If my palm is facing the head pin, my elbow is actually facing the 6-10 pins. by knowing this, I can "feel" when I threw it right and when I don't. It almost Feels like I threw a back up ball. So........ on the down swing, I focus on leading with the inside of my elbow. I feel it.
I've invested a lot on coaches over the years because I had a goal, a mission when I was single. That changed 10-11 years ago lol. I still spend the money on coaching for the purpose of learning. NO more big goals in bowling since I settled down, but I love to learn. Everyday we should try to learn something new. learning is like adding coals onto trains to power up those engines. You have to keep adding coals to keep the train moving....
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