Score of Demarcation

[NewToBowling]

Ok, what score should you NEVER go under regardless of the circumstances, you know the Score of Demarcation :)

I've had some turds this year, 133, 143. But to me I'm disappointed at sub 175. Sure 175 isn't that great but a few splits here and there and you're barely treading water.

[Amyers]

I'm not sure that it exists. Bowling consists of rolling a round object into round objects over a changing surface. Last night I shot 213-147-227 felt like crap. I watched one of the best bowlers I know shoot 128 last week. Sometimes your off sometimes you just don't have it that night. I rolled a 132 about a week ago didn't matter if I hit the pocket or not it was a split.

[1VegasBowler]

I'm not sure that it exists. Bowling consists of rolling a round object into round objects over a changing surface. Last night I shot 213-147-227 felt like crap. I watched one of the best bowlers I know shoot 128 last week. Sometimes your off sometimes you just don't have it that night. I rolled a 132 about a week ago didn't matter if I hit the pocket or not it was a split.

Don't I know how that feels! lol

My benchmark is my average, and as the anchor in both leagues I'm in, I should be the one who is there every time. But even though I was well above it last night, I too felt like crap.

[drlawsoniii]

Ok, what score should you NEVER go under regardless of the circumstances, you know the Score of Demarcation :)

I've had some turds this year, 133, 143. But to me I'm disappointed at sub 175. Sure 175 isn't that great but a few splits here and there and you're barely treading water.

Posts like these very much seem like a pissing contest, "guess what guys i'm so good that i feel terrible when i shoot less than ____".

[RobLV1]

I agree 100%! When's the last time you saw Jason Belmont shoot 160 two weeks in a row?

[Amyers]

Posts like these very much seem like a pissing contest, "guess what guys i'm so good that i feel terrible when i shoot less than ____".

This is not how I took the post. If I wanted to try and impress anyone I seriously doubt I would have included the two worst games I've thrown in the 6 months or maybe longer. I believe most of us have a number in our head that we are pissed if we shoot under. Myself I'm never happy with anything sub 200 and really feel I shouldn't be under 160 on a THS pattern but it occasionally happens. Everyone has there number based off their prior scores and abilities. Heck I can tell you what that number is from everyone of my team mates just from the looks on their faces.

[1VegasBowler]

This is not how I took the post. If I wanted to try and impress anyone I seriously doubt I would have included the two worst games I've thrown in the 6 months or maybe longer. I believe most of us have a number in our head that we are pissed if we shoot under. Myself I'm never happy with anything sub 200 and really feel I shouldn't be under 160 on a THS pattern but it occasionally happens. Everyone has there number based off their prior scores and abilities. Heck I can tell you what that number is from everyone of my team mates just from the looks on their faces.

I absolutely agree here.

The topic question here is about what our personal demarcation/benchmark score(s) keep us happy.

Most of us certainly know where we want to be each and every time out, and while we want to be bowling at a high level every time, it's not going to happen.

It's about what we would feel is reasonable for ourselves.

In one league I'm at 187. 204 in another. Those are my targets for each game to give my team a chance at getting points.

[drlawsoniii]

All they are is hey guys let me compare what i feel is a crappy game to what you think is a crappy game? It's comparing to make you feel better about yourself, I'm happy if i bowl better than my average. What's the point of asking someone how low of a score is a bad score to them? The only reason to ask that is to make yourself feel better about how you bowl by comparing you against others.

[NewToBowling]

^ Party pooper :)

[panbanger]

For me it's if I'm more than 10 pins below my average. The thought being that it would have helped the team more if I had stayed home and they used my blind score lol

[bowl1820]

Ok, what score should you NEVER go under regardless of the circumstances.


Easy don't bowl under your average or at least don't go lower than the last score you shot.

[Amyers]

All they are is hey guys let me compare what i feel is a crappy game to what you think is a crappy game? It's comparing to make you feel better about yourself, I'm happy if i bowl better than my average. What's the point of asking someone how low of a score is a bad score to them? The only reason to ask that is to make yourself feel better about how you bowl by comparing you against others.

Or maybe you it challenges you to look deeper into yours or another's game. If you find out those low games pop up more often in the first or third games it could be your equipment choice or the line your starting/finishing with. Myself usually it's the second game as evidenced in my score post I've been struggling on some nights on transition. I'm realizing it late and seem to get lost and it's taking way to long to find it.

I really could care less what anyone else's number is in relation to my own. I know full well I'm capable of bowling with the best of them on here. I also realize I can easily look like a fool at any time. That's my lot in life. lol

[fordman1]

My aim is the same at the beginning of every game "300" then after each frame it becomes the max if I go off the sheet. Sure it is unrealistic. Why would you put a "well if I can hit at least 150" I will be OK! With all the ego's on here I would have never guessed anyone would have a minimum acceptable game.

[dmet225]

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THIS! I'm always looking to see what my max score is if I strike out in a game. That said, I'm pretty grumpy if I have a game below 200. It really irks me when I have one of those bipolar bowling nights - you know - 230-150-210.

[fordman1]

You must not be very young. A lot of younger bowlers don't know how to do that.

[dmet225]

"Reply with quote" "does not work for me on here for some reason.

Are referring to younger bowlers not knowing how to calculate their max score throughout the course of a game? I'm beyond the mid-century line, and grew up keeping score by hand. There's a woman on my team (mid 20's) who has no idea what I'm talking about when I ask her what her max score would be.

[drlawsoniii]

I'm 33 and i can calculate it pretty easily, it's not difficult. I work in finance but my 12 year old nephew could do it too.

[JJKinGA]

If you wanted to do it right, you would bowl at least 30 games whatever the 6th worst score is is where you you expect to normally be above (standard statistical rules). Usually that is about 20 to 25 pins below average.

[JasonNJ]

"Reply with quote" "does not work for me on here for some reason.

Are referring to younger bowlers not knowing how to calculate their max score throughout the course of a game? I'm beyond the mid-century line, and grew up keeping score by hand. There's a woman on my team (mid 20's) who has no idea what I'm talking about when I ask her what her max score would be.

My mixed league teammates from last year were always amazed when I would say we need a strike to win because they have no idea how to keep score.

[Mike White]

If you wanted to do it right, you would bowl at least 30 games whatever the 6th worst score is is where you you expect to normally be above (standard statistical rules). Usually that is about 20 to 25 pins below average.

What "standard statistical rules" lead you to these conclusion?

[zacks]

I'm 33 and i can calculate it pretty easily, it's not difficult.

Especially if we're talking what your score will be if you strike out, 30 pins per frame plus whatever you're working off of. Though, I've always enjoyed math and numbers for some reason, so things like keeping a bowling score were never a difficult concept for me. Some people can't even add their three scores together to figure out their series. Everyone always asks me for some reason if we can still mathematically win a game when we're in the ninth or tenth frame. Regardless of the situation I always say "we'll win if you punch out."

[fordman1]

It is amusing watching people using their phone calculator to add up the recap sheet. I swear I saw someone adding
200+210+190 ?

[chrono00]

"Reply with quote" "does not work for me on here for some reason.

Are referring to younger bowlers not knowing how to calculate their max score throughout the course of a game? I'm beyond the mid-century line, and grew up keeping score by hand. There's a woman on my team (mid 20's) who has no idea what I'm talking about when I ask her what her max score would be.

Yea it's kind of sad how people can't do simple math on things like this. Plenty of times going into the tenth frame being up my x amount I'll look at the marks the other team has and tally up and tell my team we need 75 pins to lock them out and half the time they have no idea how or why I know that....

[Mike White]

Yea it's kind of sad how people can't do simple math on things like this. Plenty of times going into the tenth frame being up my x amount I'll look at the marks the other team has and tally up and tell my team we need 75 pins to lock them out and half the time they have no idea how or why I know that....

For some they simply have a phobia when it comes to math.

For others, they've never been required to know the rules of how bowling is scored.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWQ_1wTAQR0

[chrono00]

For some they simply have a phobia when it comes to math.

For others, they've never been required to know the rules of how bowling is scored.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWQ_1wTAQR0

Imagine what a novelty that was for people back then. Now a days I'm pretty sure half the people in my leagues wouldn't have a clue what to do if the auto scoring system crashed.

[Mike White]

Imagine what a novelty that was for people back then. Now a days I'm pretty sure half the people in my leagues wouldn't have a clue what to do if the auto scoring system crashed.

For those of us who kept score... it shipped our jobs "overseas"

In my case, I quit keeping score before they came to town.

[JJKinGA]

Standard statistical rules:
* 67% of all results will be within one standard deviation (98% within two standard deviations)
* That is ~17% cut off of the high and low ends

Most statistical process control systems use 1 standard deviation to indicate where normal lower boundaries should be set. If you are outside the boundaries once an adjustment should be made. If twice in a row then something is terribly wrong.

you may comment that this requires a normal distribution. Bowling scores are actually log-normal but if you look at the distributions the normal curve effectively describes the distribution. By putting the boundaries based on rank order of scores this works for log normal and other similarly skewed distributions.

The point is that by knowing where you normally score you set a realistic floor to be upset about and a realistic threshold for a great game to be happy with. At the 17% boundaries, for me that is a low game of <151 and a high game >192. Without that knowledge I tend to fixate on the few games >210 and think that I should be doing that all the time. And i hope to improve so that is the case. but right now I should be happy with a 195 as that is better than normal. I also shouldn't be too bummed out about rolling a 168. while it is more than 10 pins below average for me, it is normal. I track and adjust my limits as the season goes on. That way changes (whether to my bowling or the scoring environment) keep me properly assessing my results.

[Amyers]

Imagine what a novelty that was for people back then. Now a days I'm pretty sure half the people in my leagues wouldn't have a clue what to do if the auto scoring system crashed.

Actually happened at one of my houses last season and the decided to close instead of just using paper :confused:

[bowl1820]

Standard statistical rules:
* 67% of all results will be within one standard deviation (98% within two standard deviations)


Isn't that the Empirical Rule (aka: The 68–95–99.7 rule) your referring too?

Which is where:
68.27% of the values lie within one standard deviations of the mean.
95.45% of the values lie within two standard deviations of the mean.
99.73% of the values lie within three standard deviations of the mean.

[fordman1]

That is how you measure consistency. But you win pots with outliers. Spelling is my outlier. Most 300 games would not happen without them.

[Mike White]

Standard statistical rules:
* 67% of all results will be within one standard deviation (98% within two standard deviations)
* That is ~17% cut off of the high and low ends

Most statistical process control systems use 1 standard deviation to indicate where normal lower boundaries should be set. If you are outside the boundaries once an adjustment should be made. If twice in a row then something is terribly wrong.

you may comment that this requires a normal distribution. Bowling scores are actually log-normal but if you look at the distributions the normal curve effectively describes the distribution. By putting the boundaries based on rank order of scores this works for log normal and other similarly skewed distributions.

The point is that by knowing where you normally score you set a realistic floor to be upset about and a realistic threshold for a great game to be happy with. At the 17% boundaries, for me that is a low game of <151 and a high game >192. Without that knowledge I tend to fixate on the few games >210 and think that I should be doing that all the time. And i hope to improve so that is the case. but right now I should be happy with a 195 as that is better than normal. I also shouldn't be too bummed out about rolling a 168. while it is more than 10 pins below average for me, it is normal. I track and adjust my limits as the season goes on. That way changes (whether to my bowling or the scoring environment) keep me properly assessing my results.

That was a much more knowledgeable response than I expected.

However, by selecting a value you estimate will be about one standard deviation below average, you are setting a threshold that you would expect to meet or exceed 84% of the time..

"If you wanted to do it right, you would bowl at least 30 games whatever the 6th worst score is is where you you expect to normally be above (standard statistical rules)."

Is there a defined percentage value indicated when using the word "normally" as you have?

To me, normally, would be similar to usually, or more often than not.

Those imply a probability value of 50%

You could select your average, and assume you will meet or exceed that value, but that depends on your distribution of scores.

Using standard statistical rules, your best estimate would be the median of scores previously shot.

By the definition of the median, you have met or exceeded that value 50+% of the scores achieved.

median:
noun
1. Arithmetic, Statistics. the middle number in a given sequence of numbers, taken as the average of the two middle numbers when the sequence has an even number of numbers:
4 is the median of 1, 3, 4, 8, 9.

[Amyers]

Thank you guys for turning the post into statistics 101. lol

[JJKinGA]

Mike, as far as normal - i would say that you would disqualify if you were hurt, overly tired, not trying your best, bowling when you know the pattern is unusual (like the Sunday after Thanksgiving when there hasn't been a cleaning/re-oiling for three days). Pretty much anything that makes you certain that regular variation is not happening. If brought that up only because there are times that it is obviously not normal. If you try and rig the system you won't get good results from the math. Garbage in = garbage out.

You are also right that you could double that reduction from your average and get close to the OP request for absolutely should not cross line. (But everyone knows they suck if they are 50 pins below average).

[JJKinGA]

BTW, the overly tired comment is a true experience. One week I had an issue with a home invasion threat and went to league the following night on about 2 hours of sleep. I didn't break 400. It was apparent mid-way through the first game that I just could not focus enough to bowl well (not only sleepy but emotionally drained). My teammates asked me to hang in there and do my best. In reality I should have just taken the blind score. I was in no shape to bowl.

[2handedsniper]

400 for me

[Mike White]

Mike, as far as normal - i would say that you would disqualify if you were hurt, overly tired, not trying your best, bowling when you know the pattern is unusual (like the Sunday after Thanksgiving when there hasn't been a cleaning/re-oiling for three days). Pretty much anything that makes you certain that regular variation is not happening. If brought that up only because there are times that it is obviously not normal. If you try and rig the system you won't get good results from the math. Garbage in = garbage out.

You are also right that you could double that reduction from your average and get close to the OP request for absolutely should not cross line. (But everyone knows they suck if they are 50 pins below average).

Your full sample size should include times when you were hurt, tired, etc.

If you know know the situation ahead of time, you can only include in your calculations those previous times where the situation matched the current situation.

This is why football has injury reports.

Bookmakers use this knowledge of altered situations to recompute the new expectations.

But that really doesn't address the OP's question.

What the OP's question does, is show that the statistical model is the wrong tool to answer the OP's question.

The OP wants to NEVER go below some threshold.

That would mean you would need an amount of standard deviations that covers not 68%, but all 100%.

Mathematically, that would be infinite standard deviations.

What we do know is the absolute minimum score in bowling is 0.

So it looks like 0 would be the threshold to never cross below.

Using another line of reasoning...

If you pick an arbitrary number such as 130, and ask yourself, how bad does things have to be to achieve 130, and then how much worse does it have to get to achieve 129.

Clearly if you can get down to 130, you can get to 129.

Repeating the same logic, you can get to 128, 127, etc.

Therefore, the obvious answer remains 0.

If you shoot a 110 game, it's part of who you are.

Popeye, and Forrest Gump's Mama probably put it best.

"I am what I am", and "Stupid is as stupid does"

[fordman1]

If memory serves correctly from 25 years ago at work we used 3 standard deviations.
No computers just a calculator and a paper chart.
We plotted the readings (game scores) and after 30 games put in a line with the average. Say 200
Then on the bottom we put in the difference from game to game say 180-176-222-211-230-200 etc
Then got a average of the differences 4-46-11-19-30 the avg. would be 22
Then mult. by 3.27 and got so the difference would no more than 72
Then the top was by 2.66 meaning no score would vary more than 53 pins son between 253 and 147.
I haven't done it in years but that might be close.

[billf]

Acceptable low score? It doesn't matter as it is what it is. If I throw the ball like crap then I expect to score like crap. Of course there are times when you score well but throw it horribly. I'm learning to only worry about what I can control. Focus on proper execution each and eery shot and hopefully the scores will take care of themselves. Getting too high or especially too low due to score doesn't help anyone.
"What do I need to do to win this frame?" Before you realize it higher games and series start to follow. ****If you have any talent of athletic ability. I don't have any bowling talent other than coaching some damn good athletes****

[Tony]

Bowling is first and foremost a contest, so taking that as the critical factor in all of this wouldn't the minimum acceptable score be one pin more than your opponent.

[Tony]

On the sidebar of being able to score bowling, I began bowling in the dark ages before automatic scoring systems, we were glad to get the overhead projector with transparent plastic sheets allowed the scores to be read without walking up to the scoring table and looking at the paper sheet.
I also bowled with a couple of crazy engineers, who thought that scoring the night using roman numerals would be a fun idea, to keep it symmetrical we also scored the other teams sheet, I lost interest somewhere along the line but I do recall it being a challenge to keep everything in roman numerals.

[1VegasBowler]

On the sidebar of being able to score bowling, I began bowling in the dark ages before automatic scoring systems, we were glad to get the overhead projector with transparent plastic sheets allowed the scores to be read without walking up to the scoring table and looking at the paper sheet.
I also bowled with a couple of crazy engineers, who thought that scoring the night using roman numerals would be a fun idea, to keep it symmetrical we also scored the other teams sheet, I lost interest somewhere along the line but I do recall it being a challenge to keep everything in roman numerals.

We had glass at the scoring table and used those white pencils for the overhead projection. But we also kept track of our marks as well.

[Mike White]

Bowling is first and foremost a contest, so taking that as the critical factor in all of this wouldn't the minimum acceptable score be one pin more than your opponent.

In theory that sounds good, except what happens when your opponent shoots a 300 game?

Even if you match him with a 300 of your own, it's not acceptable by your criteria.

[Mike White]

If memory serves correctly from 25 years ago at work we used 3 standard deviations.
No computers just a calculator and a paper chart.
We plotted the readings (game scores) and after 30 games put in a line with the average. Say 200
Then on the bottom we put in the difference from game to game say 180-176-222-211-230-200 etc
Then got a average of the differences 4-46-11-19-30 the avg. would be 22
Then mult. by 3.27 and got so the difference would no more than 72
Then the top was by 2.66 meaning no score would vary more than 53 pins son between 253 and 147.
I haven't done it in years but that might be close.

You know what they say about things you put into your memory...

Wait a moment while I look it up..

Oh yeah... Use it, or lose it.

I looked at your 6 number sample, and calculated the standard deviation using the method I remembered, and I calculated a number very very close to 22.

Actually the standard deviation was 22.0037875528, but we can call it 22 for convienence.

Looking at your result had me confused for a bit.

It appeared you may have been taught a very efficient short cut method.

That was until I remembered that the order of the scores would have no impact on the standard deviation.

I reordered the scores to 176-180-200-211-222-230.

Using your method the value changes from 22, to 10.8.

Clearly the fact that the first try was so close was a coincidence.



Then mult. by 3.27 and got so the difference would no more than 72
Then the top was by 2.66 meaning no score would vary more than 53 pins son between 253 and 147.


Not clear what you're doing with these two lines.

Your numbers have an average of 203.167

3 standard deviations would 66, so the range would be 203.167 plus or minus 66.

We would expect 99.47% of scores to fall within the range 269.167 and 137.167.

I don't see 3 standard deviations as being a large enough range to use the word NEVER with.

[fordman1]

I was in a hurry and just said 200 I didn't add it up just showed how we got the range. It was the difference between one measurement and the next. You averaged that to get your range. Your upper control limit on the range was 3.27 times the average difference.
Your upper and lower on the game scores was plus or minus 2.66 of the average.
Remember we were measuring sheet metal that had been stamped into hoods, doors and fenders etc. There was tolerance of between .25 and 1.5 mm for size and margins depending on the part. Everything went through a checking fixture.

Now I have to do my league sheets. Lots of big scores last night. Had 2 300's and a 845. Can't beat speed and hand.

[Tony]

In theory that sounds good, except what happens when your opponent shoots a 300 game?

Even if you match him with a 300 of your own, it's not acceptable by your criteria.

If your goal is to win, then anything short of that isn't acceptable, you might win some games with a 172 and lose with a very high score. Depending on handicap you can beat a 300 game, if you get pins and the 300 bowler doesn't you don't have to beat him scratch to win the game.
One of the guys I bowl with shot a 324 with handicap game yesterday, so he beat his opponent who had less handicap no matter how well he bowled.

It's not a perfect system no matter how you figure it, either using the very real goal of winning or using statistics to figure out what you should theoretically be satisfied with. It seems neither solution is the answer.

You can't use statistics to determine the separation of feeling you shot an acceptable game or an unacceptable game, there are more factors than simply your average that influence where that point lies for some people and for others it's a flat line, If I shoot over xxx I'm happy with it....but are you still happy with your xxx number if you ended up there by opening in the 10th , probably not as much. Also lane conditions, guys scoring around you and your mental and physical condition also have an effect, at least for me.

[Mike White]

I was in a hurry and just said 200 I didn't add it up just showed how we got the range. It was the difference between one measurement and the next. You averaged that to get your range. Your upper control limit on the range was 3.27 times the average difference.
Your upper and lower on the game scores was plus or minus 2.66 of the average.

Ok, you had a process that was easy to calculate, and produced acceptable values for your application, just realize that those aren't "standard statistical rules".



Remember we were measuring sheet metal that had been stamped into hoods, doors and fenders etc. There was tolerance of between .25 and 1.5 mm for size and margins depending on the part. Everything went through a checking fixture.

Now this is totally unfair. I have a hard time remembering things I'm supposed to, and here you're expecting me to have remembered something I've never known.

[Jessiewoodard57]

You know we all have bad days but imagine bowling a 100 on national TV ....poor Tom had a bad day. Then I think of Belmo at the summer swing. Wow who would have thought such bad scores? When I have a bad day (often lol) I just chalk it up as just another day...this too shall pass.

[1VegasBowler]

You know we all have bad days but imagine bowling a 100 on national TV ....poor Tom had a bad day. Then I think of Belmo at the summer swing. Wow who would have thought such bad scores? When I have a bad day (often lol) I just chalk it up as just another day...this too shall pass.

His revenge ended up winning that same tournament later on.

[SAbowler]

Ok, what score should you NEVER go under regardless of the circumstances, you know the Score of Demarcation :)

I've had some turds this year, 133, 143. But to me I'm disappointed at sub 175. Sure 175 isn't that great but a few splits here and there and you're barely treading water.

If I bowl below average, I'm disappointed, but if I throw WAY under average, say 20pins or more, I'm pi$$ed. Seems I'm pi$$ed quite often! LOL

[Chamiso]

I currently average around 145 I consider a bad day around 120. Though unfortunately I end up having a really bad night like the other week where I ended up with a 94, was really upset at myself there since it was below 100. I hadn't did that bad in over 6 months until that night...

[1VegasBowler]

I currently average around 145 I consider a bad day around 120. Though unfortunately I end up having a really bad night like the other week where I ended up with a 94, was really upset at myself there since it was below 100. I hadn't did that bad in over 6 months until that night...

Then what kind of tournaments are you getting in? Unless you're bowling somewhere around 180 or so scratch, I don't see how it can be profitable for you to be in any tournaments.

[RobLV1]

Then what kind of tournaments are you getting in? Unless you're bowling somewhere around 180 or so scratch, I don't see how it can be profitable for you to be in any tournaments.

Believe it or not, some bowlers choose to bowl in tournaments for the experience in order to improve. If you are bowling in anything to make a profit, you chose the wrong field.

[1VegasBowler]

Believe it or not, some bowlers choose to bowl in tournaments for the experience in order to improve. If you are bowling in anything to make a profit, you chose the wrong field.

I don't disagree when it comes to getting experience. I hope to get into a couple of PBA/PBA50 Regionals next year for the same reason.

But I also believe one should get themselves in a position to cash more often than not.

Will I cash in any of the tournaments I get into? Probably not the first few times, but it's not going to be for a lack of trying. And while recent successes have me optimistic about my game, I also know that I'll be going up against some of the best there is. While I certainly respect all of them, I'm not afraid of them either.

[Amyers]

I don't disagree when it comes to getting experience. I hope to get into a couple of PBA/PBA50 Regionals next year for the same reason.

But I also believe one should get themselves in a position to cash more often than not.

Will I cash in any of the tournaments I get into? Probably not the first few times, but it's not going to be for a lack of trying. And while recent successes have me optimistic about my game, I also know that I'll be going up against some of the best there is. While I certainly respect all of them, I'm not afraid of them either.

I bowl small tournaments all the time I've never won one yet I think the best I've ever done is $20 over my entry fee. Now I don't enter the high end $200 plus tournaments as that's more than I'm willing to pay for the experience. I don't think you can really improve bowling against a bunch of people who are consistently below or at your talent level.

[fordman1]

I don't know of any tournaments around here that I want to donate to. The local assn. tournament is scratch and if you aren't 225 plus you might as well dig a hole and throw the money in it. Even then the you would have very little chance to win. That's why there are only about 75 people who enter every year. Senior tournaments are harder to win with all the people around who were once "CONTENDERS"

[RobLV1]

I bowl small tournaments all the time I've never won one yet I think the best I've ever done is $20 over my entry fee. Now I don't enter the high end $200 plus tournaments as that's more than I'm willing to pay for the experience. I don't think you can really improve bowling against a bunch of people who are consistently below or at your talent level.

I've bowled many tournaments over the years from NABI handicap tournaments, to local scratch tournaments, to PBA Regionals, to PBA and PBA50 National Events. I've never won one, cashed only occasionally, and was even the Red Leader at the Senior U.S. Open one year. That being said, the last time I bowled in the Senior Open, after one game I was in 10th place, one pin ahead of Walter Ray, and after four games I was in 40th place, tied with Norm Duke before I totally tanked. Regardless of the outcome, I wouldn't trade the experiences for any amount of money. How many of you can say that you've crossed with the likes of Mark Roth, Ernie Schlegel, and Mark Williams? Not many is my guess.

[Chamiso]

Then what kind of tournaments are you getting in? Unless you're bowling somewhere around 180 or so scratch, I don't see how it can be profitable for you to be in any tournaments.

Our local city tournament has both a scratch portion and a handicap portion for teams, doubles, and individual. I had a partner for the doubles portion last year we came in third 1st and 2nd tied at about 20 pins ahead of us. Both of those teams had a person with a healthy handicap as well. Also they had it at on of the less popular alley's which is probably why we are able to cash. Almost everyone struggled to get to their average. Except for me and our partner but that's because we live like 5 minutes from that alley and took advantage of practicing as much as possible so we were one of the few people to bowl at their average.

Also the pro am we have at one of the main alley's in town is handicap as well. I didn't cash the last one but still ranked fairly well.

I bowl in them for the fun of bowling though. Since they don't cost too much to get into I don't mind if I'm not able to cash and will gladly accept the experience of being able to bowl with great people.

[1VegasBowler]

Our local city tournament has both a scratch portion and a handicap portion for teams, doubles, and individual. I had a partner for the doubles portion last year we came in third 1st and 2nd tied at about 20 pins ahead of us. Both of those teams had a person with a healthy handicap as well. Also they had it at on of the less popular alley's which is probably why we are able to cash. Almost everyone struggled to get to their average. Except for me and our partner but that's because we live like 5 minutes from that alley and took advantage of practicing as much as possible so we were one of the few people to bowl at their average.

Also the pro am we have at one of the main alley's in town is handicap as well. I didn't cash the last one but still ranked fairly well.

I bowl in them for the fun of bowling though. Since they don't cost too much to get into I don't mind if I'm not able to cash and will gladly accept the experience of being able to bowl with great people.

Try to remember, that, there are plenty of tournaments that don't use a THS pattern, especially in the Pro-Am's. Their tendency is to use the pattern(s) that are going to be used for the regular tournament.

Also remember the patterns will play differently not only on different lanes, but in different houses. While you can certainly have an advantage playing a THS in the house you play most often at, that can change as well.

Here in Vegas, the toughest house to play in is at Texas Station. The THS plays so much differently from week to week with no consistency. It is said, that, if you can bowl at Texas Station you can bowl anywhere here in town.

While my average at Texas Station is only 187, it has been rising every week. At the Orleans, my average is 205 and climbing. Big different between the 2.

[1VegasBowler]

I bowl small tournaments all the time I've never won one yet I think the best I've ever done is $20 over my entry fee. Now I don't enter the high end $200 plus tournaments as that's more than I'm willing to pay for the experience. I don't think you can really improve bowling against a bunch of people who are consistently below or at your talent level.

I agree here. In order to get better, you need to go up against better bowlers.

And while I only plan on 2 or 3 PBA/PBA50 Regional events in 2017, I will certainly do my best. Will it be good enough? Only time will tell.

It's kind of like playing in a WSOP event. First is to survive the day and then survive to make the cash. After that, anything can happen.

And while it is foolish to believe that I can win any of them at this point, I'm not going to quit if I don't.

[NewToBowling]

I agree here. In order to get better, you need to go up against better bowlers.

And while I only plan on 2 or 3 PBA/PBA50 Regional events in 2017, I will certainly do my best. Will it be good enough? Only time will tell.

It's kind of like playing in a WSOP event. First is to survive the day and then survive to make the cash. After that, anything can happen.

And while it is foolish to believe that I can win any of them at this point, I'm not going to quit if I don't.

Are you in the November Nine? :)

[Chamiso]

Try to remember, that, there are plenty of tournaments that don't use a THS pattern, especially in the Pro-Am's. Their tendency is to use the pattern(s) that are going to be used for the regular tournament.

Also remember the patterns will play differently not only on different lanes, but in different houses. While you can certainly have an advantage playing a THS in the house you play most often at, that can change as well.

Here in Vegas, the toughest house to play in is at Texas Station. The THS plays so much differently from week to week with no consistency. It is said, that, if you can bowl at Texas Station you can bowl anywhere here in town.

While my average at Texas Station is only 187, it has been rising every week. At the Orleans, my average is 205 and climbing. Big different between the 2.

Yep, I know the pro am was on the cheetah pattern and I didn't expect to cash that one but was fun getting to bowl with the pros. The city tournament had used the THS for that house and it is the most unpopular house in town so almost no one in the area has experience bowling there.

[jab5325]

I'm not sure that it exists. Bowling consists of rolling a round object into round objects over a changing surface. Last night I shot 213-147-227 felt like crap. I watched one of the best bowlers I know shoot 128 last week. Sometimes your off sometimes you just don't have it that night. I rolled a 132 about a week ago didn't matter if I hit the pocket or not it was a split.

Having a rough season so far.

Threw in the 130s in my sport short league this year, but had 5 splits.....none of which were the 2-7. Ended up with a series in the 540s.

Overall, I want to get to 600 each night (sadly, I haven't).....but anything north of 575 and I'll go home happy. 550-575 irks me, and 525-550 makes me mad. Anything south of 525 is a complete and utter fail and I go home pissed.

[RobLV1]

I interviewed Ron Mohr this morning, and I brought up the subject of bowling in tournaments where you have little to no chance of cashing. He had an interesting insight: consider that after paying your entry fee, you are at zero. If you can do that, you will always come away with something whether it be $ from cashing, experience in playing varied lane conditions, or the once in a lifetime experience of bowling with some of the best bowlers in the world. In other words, if you can't afford the entry fee, don't bowl. If you can afford it, look toward taking away more than just dollars from cashing.

[1VegasBowler]

Are you in the November Nine? :)

Don't I wish! lol

I didn't play in the WSOP this year. I'll probably do a Ring event and a bracelet event next year.