House that favors lower rev-rates??

[freshlybakedfingerolls]

Just wondering on everyone's experiences here, but have you ever bowled in a house that favors a lower rev-rate and speed? Our league recently moved to a different house, and it's very apparent that those bowlers with higher rev-rates tend to have a more difficult time with carry. Everything, across the back stone-7's, smash 8's, 9's and 10's. The problem isn't getting to the pocket, it's consistently knocking them all down.

The guys with less powerful releases on the other hand seem to have much greater carry, and even more margin for error going straighter up the lanes, as they carry everything from high flush to half-pocket. These guys have seen their averages jump by 10-20 pins just by moving houses.

Feels like an extreme difference in oil volume in the middle part to the outside part of the lane as you can hook plastic from outside 5 into the pocket. With a high rev-rate, going straighter with increased speed only leads to the previously mentioned taps.

Anyone else encounter this kind of condition? How did you go about attacking it?

Cheers.

[LOUVIT]

I have only been bowling in one house for now but I wish it was that one...lol I'm a slow speed and medium rev guy...I wish houses would tint the oil so we could see it like they do on TV

[freshlybakedfingerolls]

Tinted Oil would be awesome. Little messy, but awesome. Although I guess it would expose the crappy job some houses are doing in lane maintenance lol.

[JJKinGA]

We have a house that has some navy blue lanes. You can see the glare of teh oil really easily on those lanes. I wish we could bowl league on them as it really is the best lanes i have ever seen for reading the oil.

[ep1977]

Tinted Oil would be awesome. Little messy, but awesome. Although I guess it would expose the crappy job some houses are doing in lane maintenance lol.

I agree with you 100%. Tinted oil would be great but it would show the bowlers how little oil they actually putting out and how quick it disappears. The centers don't want that. It would be great though just for league bowling to use the blue oil.

[J Anderson]

Just wondering on everyone's experiences here, but have you ever bowled in a house that favors a lower rev-rate and speed? Our league recently moved to a different house, and it's very apparent that those bowlers with higher rev-rates tend to have a more difficult time with carry. Everything, across the back stone-7's, smash 8's, 9's and 10's. The problem isn't getting to the pocket, it's consistently knocking them all down.

The guys with less powerful releases on the other hand seem to have much greater carry, and even more margin for error going straighter up the lanes, as they carry everything from high flush to half-pocket. These guys have seen their averages jump by 10-20 pins just by moving houses.

Feels like an extreme difference in oil volume in the middle part to the outside part of the lane as you can hook plastic from outside 5 into the pocket. With a high rev-rate, going straighter with increased speed only leads to the previously mentioned taps.

Anyone else encounter this kind of condition? How did you go about attacking it?

Cheers.

I'm trying to get my head around what conditions would favor Low rev-low speed bowlers. The typical house shot favors that throw enough hook to take advantage of it. As long as the rev rate matches the speed it's fine.

[freshlybakedfingerolls]

Trust me, I know it sounds odd lol. And I know it's not just me from observing and talking to the other bowlers, and it's very apparent in seeing the lower-rev guys thrive when they used to struggle in comparision in the old house. So the improvement came strictly from a change in environment. I bowl regularly in three different houses and the challenge is exclusive to this one.

I guess you'd have to bowl there to feel it for yourself, but there seems to be plenty of volume in the middle, and extremely dry on the outside. Anything right of 10 feels like a 30' pattern, then left of 10 feels like 45'. Urethane, even plastic on the outside hooks at your feet if you have any kind of rev-rate. It's not hard to find the pocket, but again it's the carry that is the issue. Obvious issue with the high-power guys.

One theory I've heard is that the center has never changed their pins, so they are inherently lighter. Causing them to fly around too much as opposed to staying low on the deck. The lower-rev guys don't have this problem and it usually leads to much better carry.

I know it's weird, and we don't experience the same challenge in any other center. That's why I came here, to ask if anyone's ever had the same kind of experience.

[LOUVIT]

Never changed their pin's? Isn't there a rule on that?. My house got new pins a few months ago and it's fun watching them slide to a different spot without falling. The bottoms are so flat I guess. If you leave a 6 pin for instance it can end up being a 2 and a half pin it'll just slide while still standing and of course the machine doesn't pick it up sometimes.

and to the other poster....Navy Blue lanes? I'd love to see a picture of them...

[freshlybakedfingerolls]

LOL there probably is? We know that this house hasn't replaced the pins in ages. Bunch of non-bowlers running a center. I guess that could be a factor??

[freshlybakedfingerolls]

We have a house that has some navy blue lanes. You can see the glare of teh oil really easily on those lanes. I wish we could bowl league on them as it really is the best lanes i have ever seen for reading the oil.

Wow, that sounds really cool. Love to see a pic of that!

[LOUVIT]

Second request of picture of blue lanes....lol...found these online....wow..

http://www.brunswickbowling.com/products/lanes/lane-types/

[Mike White]

I'm trying to get my head around what conditions would favor Low rev-low speed bowlers. The typical house shot favors that throw enough hook to take advantage of it. As long as the rev rate matches the speed it's fine.

Here is what such a condition might look like.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX7WOxSJ8-g

[freshlybakedfingerolls]

Here is what such a condition might look like.

Kinda like that, ours looks drier/shorter outside. Most importantly, what does it look like for the power players there?

Wow LOUVIT, those colored lanes look spectacular. Doubt I'll even see it anywhere around here with the popularity of the sport waning.

[DMS]

Yeah... I have sort of the same situation here! Living where I do, there's bowling centers every few miles. I've bowled six of them in all, and bowl three of them frequently enough to catch them on different days and times.

My home house is by far the toughest... I'd swear the lanes are surfaced with Teflon! I've got to be super-careful with my strike ball to be extremely accurate, have my speed just right, and my hand just perfect on the release. I've played several lines at various times, and always have trouble with carry.

The other two houses I frequent somewhat regularly are a cakewalk by comparison. I consistently score 30 or 40 pins higher at the other places... I'm not kidding.. THAT big a difference. It seems like at these other centers, there's the true 'walled in' shot that you always read about in books, where even a really green player can score pretty well.

So here's the reveal: I'm a total old-school stroker. My benchmark ball is a Brunswick Vintage Series Danger Zone in OOB finish. I even have a conventional grip! I throw a plastic spare ball with a dead-straight delivery... You can hear the thumb thudding as it rolls.

At my home house, my scores would be disgraceful if not for the luck of my being able to do a perfectly straight, end-over-end spare release. My cranker buddies are jealous of my straight ball.

As you might expect, I don't have high revs, and when my home house shot is fresh, I need to keep my speed low or I'll be taking out only the right side of the rack on every shot.

My 'A' game there is down and in, usually on the five or seven boards, where there's just enough friction to keep my skid phase from extending all the way to the pin deck. As the lanes get burned up, I finally start getting some better ball reaction and can throw faster, which improves my carry, and makes me tend to score higher as the night goes on.

I'm not the only player who plays this condition the same way, so sometimes I get some help burning a hill of friction out on the twigs.

The folks that score high(er) at my home house are MASSIVE crankers. The place is run by experienced and active bowlers. I think they're putting out a sport shot as the THS! Nobody will tell you what they're putting down for the THS shot... It's like they'd have to kill you if they told you. Not kidding.

I've learned that these lanes are fairly new, and some say they have less friction because they aren't scratched up from years of use. Also, the oil on my ball seems like it has a much lower viscosity compared to other houses I've played.

(I) Have no idea how often they change the pins, but sometimes I could swear they seem a little 'dead', particularly when I'm forced to play lower ball speeds and am hitting with just a little lower inertia than the power players. Other places, I seem to enjoy a little better pin action, but that could just be a byproduct of being able to throw a slightly faster ball speed. I dunno.

Here's my theory: I think my home house is using one of the slicker (cheaper?) conditioners, and they're putting out 'sport-like' pattern. By that, I mean it has a very low wet-to-dry ratio, and an overall lower volume.

I've played all the animal patterns, and I'll be damned if my home house doesn't play exactly like that. I think the other houses are putting out a shot that's more what we'd all call a THS, with a high (maybe 10:1) ratio in a block or Christmas tree pattern, middling in length... maybe 40 or 42 feet, and of much higher overall volume.

When I play the outside at these other houses the whole shot just feels a lot less twitchy, and has way more margin of error. If I play the usual 10 board track, it feels perfectly 'normal' and the ball does what you expect. With the huge ratio, I can even play a pretty convincing inside shot, if I feel like it.

It seems a little counter-intuitive, that the low volume shot is more slippery than the higher volume shot, I know. I think that might be because of the lane surface AND the type of conditioner being used. I know there's significant difference in lane surfaces depending on their manufacturer / model.

What about conditioners? Are some 'slicker' than others? Anything any of you could add to these thoughts?

I'd love to be more educated on this. It drives me nuts! I like that I practice and play league in a tough house, because when I go other places I look like a bowling God (which is a helluva lot of fun!)... But it comes at a cost... I must have ZERO ego at my home house!

Our house shot is really humbling, and there's some really good players that are there all the time.


Note: Post edited to eliminate 'wall of text' resulting from 'Quick Reply' mode... Which didn't work.... How do you do a carriage return on this forum software???

[bowl1820]

To start a new paragraph

you just hit Enter

(Twice so there's a space between them like here)

Like this.

[DMS]

Bowl1820 - Thanks for the editing tips. Double carriage return it shall be!

[fordman1]

"I've learned that these lanes are fairly new, and some say they have less friction because they aren't scratched up from years of use. Also, the oil on my ball seems like it has a much lower viscosity compared to other houses I've played."

We got new Brunswick Anvil lanes installed last year and 85% of the league bowlers took a hit on their average. They are the hardest and slickest lanes on the market. At least That is what I have heard. They will get better in time but until then be patient. Not sure that is what your center has or not why not ask them.

[DMS]

Fordman1, Thanks for the information. They are definitely Brunswick lanes, as they have all the cardinal features (dots on 5 boards, range finders, lighter color, brighter 7 board, etc.). If they really are that much slicker, then that could indeed by the problem. One thing is for sure, almost nobody plays dull balls there; they all roll polished surfaces. I actually polished my Storm Crux (alternate strike ball) and improved it's look significantly. One of my bowling buddies (who is a cranker and a high average player) suggested getting one of my balls re-drilled to put the pin above my fingers to achieve a length / back end snap reaction. Will be trying that to see how it works.

[Aslan]

I have a similar problem when I sub on Tuesdays.

I swear they either:

A) Don't oil their lanes pre-league.
B) Use lower viscosity oil that evaporates faster.
C) Oil a very short (28-29ft) and/or very narrow (15-35) pattern.

I'm not a "cranker" nor do I do any other distasteful thing, like 2-handed bowling. But, like the video MWhite (banned? WT?? No vote?? ??) posted...you can see the ball roll out very early. If the ball has already rolled out...it doesn't matter how much it hooked...it's not hooking anymore.

I've had to resort to using a very weak ball (Track 300A) and play up and in the 15-board. A very straight shot, a little fish hook at the end...but my only other option is urethane up the 5-10. Like you described, these options result in carry issues. Not just for 'crankers'...but "old time" bowling...people didn't average as high...the angle wasn't there. Unfortunately, the modern era of bowling has taught bowlers that all ya gotta do...is spin the ball as much as you can...and bounce it off the 8-board near the tracers...and if you DON'T strike...you got robbed.

Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: Best Guestimate is the lanes have patterns that are shorter, and/or drier, and /or haven't been freshly oiled...so your balls are losing energy and rolling out before they get in position. Even if they make it back to the pocket, they don't carry as well.

[DMS]

Aslan, Yeah, so I'm not crazy (that there can be such massive variations). Thanks for the confirmation.

I did a little research, and there is indeed a very wide variation in the viscosity of the various conditioners on the market. I'm pretty experienced in plastics and lubricants, and can definitely see a marked difference in viscosity of the conditioners I've experienced. Our lanes do burn up quick... From first to last game on league nights, the changes in the shot are significant and trend toward increased friction over the whole lane, perhaps a result of evaporation. I can deduce this since I often end up trying several different lines to get carry each night (which may be one of my problems, too... Lack of commitment to a shot).

The league in question is a sanctioned Vegas league, and they do condition the lanes before league play. That said, I don't know if they're stripping them. I always go early to do some warm-up rolls, so I'm going to watch the oil machines this time and see if they're going all the way up to the pin deck, which would imply that they're stripping before laying down the fresh pattern. If they're not, and just laying down a fresh shot over the hash left over from a whole day's worth of open bowling, then I could see it being pretty squirrely, particularly in the back ends. That's one of my issues; how is it that my ball isn't grabbing well at the back end? Possibly carry down from hundreds of plastic ball shots sprayed all over the place?

Anyhow, I'm seeing best results by playing an extremely outside line, down and in. I'm launching parallel to the boards, anywhere between the 4 and 7. With that shot, I can get enough pocket angle for reasonable carry, especially as I'm able to increase ball speed as the lanes dry up. Margin for error in that space is pretty reasonable for my skill level and style.
I'll be playing tonight and am going to commit to that shot and see how it scores. Did pretty well with it in practice this week. Hoping for a good look!

OT: Aslan, are you playing the OCUSBC Tourney coming up in February at Fountain?

Group: I'll report back after playing tonight and let you know how it went! Thanks again for all the great insights!

ETA: Also, almost forgot to say... Yeah, I can use the shot up the 15 board, too (with a small bit of swing). That's probably my second-favorite way to attack it. I've had success doing that exact same thing on some sport shots. Appreciate the tip!

[DMS]

Hi all... Reporting back as promised.

So, played my regular Sunday night league and stayed committed to the outside shot, and trying to make adjustments around that line only. Pretty much bowled my average, so switching lines to find advantage may be a good idea after all. Also subbed in a league tonight with friends where I bowled a few different lines, and had some success. Still was really hard to string any strikes, though. My scores were right around my average, and could have been higher if my spare shooting had been better this evening. There were not enough lanes available for my usual two warm-up games, so I had to play cold. My warm-up is used to dial in my accuracy for spare shooting, and tonight I didn't get that luxury (the league only has a 10 minute warm up with eight players per pair, so really only enough time to find your initial line).

Next step will be to solve this problem with technology! My higher scoring friends like balls with long length and strong back end snap, so I'm going to order a Quantum Fire Pearl and have it drilled fingertip with a stacked layout (pin over bridge and CG in middle of grip). I'd had my eye on the Quantum anyhow, so seems like a good enough excuse to go buy a new ball!

Will let you all know how that goes!

[freshlybakedfingerolls]

Yeah... I have sort of the same situation here! Living where I do, there's bowling centers every few miles. I've bowled six of them in all, and bowl three of them frequently enough to catch them on different days and times.

My home house is by far the toughest... I'd swear the lanes are surfaced with Teflon! I've got to be super-careful with my strike ball to be extremely accurate, have my speed just right, and my hand just perfect on the release. I've played several lines at various times, and always have trouble with carry.

The other two houses I frequent somewhat regularly are a cakewalk by comparison. I consistently score 30 or 40 pins higher at the other places... I'm not kidding.. THAT big a difference. It seems like at these other centers, there's the true 'walled in' shot that you always read about in books, where even a really green player can score pretty well.

So here's the reveal: I'm a total old-school stroker. My benchmark ball is a Brunswick Vintage Series Danger Zone in OOB finish. I even have a conventional grip! I throw a plastic spare ball with a dead-straight delivery... You can hear the thumb thudding as it rolls.

At my home house, my scores would be disgraceful if not for the luck of my being able to do a perfectly straight, end-over-end spare release. My cranker buddies are jealous of my straight ball.

As you might expect, I don't have high revs, and when my home house shot is fresh, I need to keep my speed low or I'll be taking out only the right side of the rack on every shot.

My 'A' game there is down and in, usually on the five or seven boards, where there's just enough friction to keep my skid phase from extending all the way to the pin deck. As the lanes get burned up, I finally start getting some better ball reaction and can throw faster, which improves my carry, and makes me tend to score higher as the night goes on.

I'm not the only player who plays this condition the same way, so sometimes I get some help burning a hill of friction out on the twigs.

The folks that score high(er) at my home house are MASSIVE crankers. The place is run by experienced and active bowlers. I think they're putting out a sport shot as the THS! Nobody will tell you what they're putting down for the THS shot... It's like they'd have to kill you if they told you. Not kidding.

I've learned that these lanes are fairly new, and some say they have less friction because they aren't scratched up from years of use. Also, the oil on my ball seems like it has a much lower viscosity compared to other houses I've played.

(I) Have no idea how often they change the pins, but sometimes I could swear they seem a little 'dead', particularly when I'm forced to play lower ball speeds and am hitting with just a little lower inertia than the power players. Other places, I seem to enjoy a little better pin action, but that could just be a byproduct of being able to throw a slightly faster ball speed. I dunno.

Here's my theory: I think my home house is using one of the slicker (cheaper?) conditioners, and they're putting out 'sport-like' pattern. By that, I mean it has a very low wet-to-dry ratio, and an overall lower volume.

I've played all the animal patterns, and I'll be damned if my home house doesn't play exactly like that. I think the other houses are putting out a shot that's more what we'd all call a THS, with a high (maybe 10:1) ratio in a block or Christmas tree pattern, middling in length... maybe 40 or 42 feet, and of much higher overall volume.

When I play the outside at these other houses the whole shot just feels a lot less twitchy, and has way more margin of error. If I play the usual 10 board track, it feels perfectly 'normal' and the ball does what you expect. With the huge ratio, I can even play a pretty convincing inside shot, if I feel like it.

It seems a little counter-intuitive, that the low volume shot is more slippery than the higher volume shot, I know. I think that might be because of the lane surface AND the type of conditioner being used. I know there's significant difference in lane surfaces depending on their manufacturer / model.

What about conditioners? Are some 'slicker' than others? Anything any of you could add to these thoughts?

I'd love to be more educated on this. It drives me nuts! I like that I practice and play league in a tough house, because when I go other places I look like a bowling God (which is a helluva lot of fun!)... But it comes at a cost... I must have ZERO ego at my home house!

Our house shot is really humbling, and there's some really good players that are there all the time.


Note: Post edited to eliminate 'wall of text' resulting from 'Quick Reply' mode... Which didn't work.... How do you do a carriage return on this forum software???

Nice to hear about other bowler's experiences. Our house is a little different as it's actually a disadvantage to be a high-rev/speed bowler (sorry Aslan, I switched to a two-handed approach), whereas your house favors those guys. Although, it does sound a little tougher than a really soft THS. It doesn't sound like a low-ratio sport shot though, as the crankers won't necessarily excel either. Probably THS with heavy volume, which as a stroker you can combat with some of the aggressive modern equipment out there nowadays.

[Aslan]

OT: Aslan, are you playing the OCUSBC Tourney coming up in February at Fountain?

Probably not, unless someone really wants me to be on their team/doubles. I bowled 2 seasons at a local AMF house and averaged 190 then 192. I've been in 4 leagues over 2-3 seasons, at other houses, and averaged 173, 180, 188, 183, 171. Currently I'm averaging 179 on Tuesdays and 180 on Wednesdays. So, if I do the OCUSBC or CA state USBC...I'm giving my opponents 2 points when I bowl better than usual, or as many as 21 points if I bowl worse than usual.

I did the OCUSBC tournament last year at Forest Lanes. I wasn't planning on it, but a bowler I always see at the BVL asked me so I agreed. He might ask me again. I usually bowl well at Forest and Fountain (and Tustin before it closed)...but it was a REAL STRUGGLE carrying a 190-192 average. I helped our team finish in the Top 10...but I pooed the bed in doubles and singles. I did the OCUSBC Open in 2015, but just singles and doubles...and I wasn't competitive at all.

I'll do the BVL again, because:
A) It's mainly a charity/support our troops issue.
B) The OC BVL is again at my home center...1.5 minute walk.
C) I've finished in the top 5 of the BVL three straight years regardless of division (see below)...I'd like to stretch that streak to four straight years.

I did the BVL in 2014 and was in the top 5 in the B Division with a 563 series. In 2015, I finished 3rd in the B Division with a 527 series and finished 2nd in the A Division of the Citrus Belt USBC BVL tournament with a 593. I could have represented Citrus Belt at the State BVL tournament because the 1st place guy couldn't go...but I was only in the A-Division because I played in a Sport shot league in the Citrus Belt...and the stupid conversion chart somehow thought a 149 average on a sport shot means I was a 170+ average bowler...even though at that time I never averaged over 170 in any THS league...plus my house league was sweeping in Vegas the same weekend, so I turned it down. All I kept thinking was, "Fresno is a long way to drive just to get your ASh kicked." So I went to Vegas and got it kicked there...shorter drive. In 2016, I finished 3rd in the A-Division in the OC BVL with a 609.

[Aslan]

My Tuesday house was so dry tonight...that I used a urethane Hammer Big Blue Spare Ball all night.

Actually, that wasn't planned...I forgot my VISE inserts at home.

Scores are for the scores thread...but lets just say I did fairly well.

Standing left toe about 21-22, targeting 11-12.

[mattmc82]

sounds like old pins to me

http://www.bowlingboards.com/threads/19286-Strategy-when-dealing-with-old-pins

[Aslan]

OT: Aslan, are you playing the OCUSBC Tourney coming up in February at Fountain?

Ran into my tourney partner from last year at the BLV. So, I guess I AM doing the OCUSBC Open. It's more just for fun than anything, I don't think our team will be very competitive...and I'd probably have to shoot an 800 to win singles.

[DMS]

Mattmc82: Yeah, old pins are a definite possibility at my home house... See notes below!

Aslan: So you are playing it... perhaps I'll see you there! We have a fairly solid team, so could make some impact. We'll see!

Anyhow... More experience to share on my home house...

One thing I've also noticed is a lot of sliding pins. At my practice session last night, we saw a bunch of 'em (I'm talking about sliding an entire pin space!). I did a little research and divined two bits of interesting info. First, old pins will have the wood core shrink and pull up from the bottom surface of the pin, just leaving the nylon base ring in contact with the pin deck. That can allow them to slide sideways instead of toppling (because of less friction on the deck). Second, the pin decks can get oily and dirty (obviously), which will also allow the pins to slide instead of tip over. Since becoming aware of this, I've watched, and it happens a LOT at my home house. Never really noticed this at other joints I play, but am going to pay a lot more attention to it. The upshot is that in order to score high at this place, one needs a really steep entry angle into the pocket to carry. I had my Crux re-drilled this week with a length / snap layout and played it last night... Wow! Huge difference!! Had much better carry. As a matter of fact, had good carry on hits that were really marginal even by my totally amateur standards. I'm convinced that one reason our house is harder is that they just don't keep it that clean. To score high, you need a steep entry angle and a lot of ball speed (so there's adequate energy to get good pin mixing).

I'll leave you all with this little gem: Have any of you been to bowltech.com? It's a forum site for lanemen and mechanics. When I discovered it last week, I ended up reading it for the entire day... It's absolutely amazing how many things the lanemen and mechanics can do to alter the conditions... It goes WAY beyond conditioner and lane topography. We hear a lot of discussion about oil patterns and topography, but very little (or nothing, actually) about other mechanical adjustments they can make to influence scoring. Check out these topics over there:

1. Pin deck angle. Wow!!! This is a big factor.

2. Old pins and sliding pins. These guys have all kinds of tricks to try to prevent pin sliding. It's almost comical!

3. Manipulation of the pin locations. There's a good bit of tolerance in the pin positions of a 'legal' rack. Does your house place the 7's and 10's a little further forward than the rest of the rack?

Those are just the tip of the iceberg. After checking that site out, I'm now more cynical than ever. <g> That said, I'm going to keep practicing at my hard house, as it makes bowling anywhere else feel incredibly easy.

Thanks for this discussion, you guys... Really expanded my armory of knowledge!

[freshlybakedfingerolls]

Interesting, we do get quite a few sliding pins. Old pins are definitely a factor. The other day, a very good bowler rolls 607 in one league in the morning, then immediately rolls 827 on another pair. He's a pretty high level bowler, so the only difference between the two sets was the lanes. Execution was the same, just that the morning couldn't carry, whereas the afternoon carried everything. It was almost comical lol