Your Bylaws

[fordman1]

Have you ever read you league bylaws?
Do you have a copy in your bag.
If you were the league "TRUMP" what rules would you change?
Would you change it to help make the league fair for everyone or to gain an advantage for your self or team?

[drlawsoniii]

I would probably ban smoking. More because it's an annoyance to wait on people. In a 5 person team league if an entire team goes out to smoke you can be waiting on them for 15 minutes as they're BSing with other smokers. That and the fact that we have to smell the stale cigarette and smoke smell when they come back in the alley.

[NewToBowling]

I don't think you can ban smoking. You can ban smoking indoors but not smoking altogether

[drlawsoniii]

I don't think you can ban smoking. You can ban smoking indoors but not smoking altogether

If you are the president of the league you can ban smoking during league time. It may diminish the number of bowlers in your league, but you can do it.

[fordman1]

I would probably ban smoking. More because it's an annoyance to wait on people. In a 5 person team league if an entire team goes out to smoke you can be waiting on them for 15 minutes as they're BSing with other smokers. That and the fact that we have to smell the stale cigarette and smoke smell when they come back in the alley.

15 minutes is Totally unacceptable. Get a time limit between games something like 3-4-5 max minutes. then start giving them zero.

[drlawsoniii]

If you are the president of the league you can ban smoking during league time. It may diminish the number of bowlers in your league, but you can do it.

If you can't go 3 hours without smoking, you have a problem. You might want to see an addiction specialist.

[1VegasBowler]

If you are the president of the league you can ban smoking during league time. It may diminish the number of bowlers in your league, but you can do it.

Actually, the league president cannot add a rule to the By Laws. Only the membership of the league can do that by a proposal and vote.

[RobLV1]

Actually, the league president cannot add a rule to the By Laws. Only the membership of the league can do that by a proposal and vote.

I believe that once the League Bylaws have been accepted by the membership on the first day of bowling, it takes a 100% acceptance vote by all of the team captains to change any rule or add anything new.

[fordman1]

That is correct once the first ball is thrown no changes without 100% approval of the board of directors. post number 666 look out

[JJKinGA]

Everyone should have the league by-laws in their bag. Then you know if your league officers are doing their job or not.
As far as the smoke breaks, if the league is sanctioned or if the by-laws have it in there, a team can be penalized for Delay of Game (Rule 11). The penalty is forfeit if the team does not respond to the request to proceed with play. As a league officer, I would not enforce it on smoke breaks unless it was really causing harm to the whole league. If it was just a team getting antsy sitting around I would encourage them to be magnanimous. Even in a highly competitive league we are all paying to have some fun. I might remind the violators that they need to minimize the break so i don't have any reason to use rule 11. It really would depend on who was being the jerks to the rest of the league - the complainers or the smokers.

[J Anderson]

Have you ever read you league bylaws?
Do you have a copy in your bag.
If you were the league "TRUMP" what rules would you change?
Would you change it to help make the league fair for everyone or to gain an advantage for your self or team?

I have read them in the past.

Wednesday league the secretary has not yet distributed this years rules. I have never seen written rules for my Thursday league, a non sanctioned league.

I would change the rule for bowling against the "vacant" team when there are an odd number of teams. Currently both my league have an odd number of teams. One league uses the traditional Average minus ten system; add the individual averages and subtract 10 pins per bowler to get the vacant team score. The other uses a draw system; a different team is used each week to provide the scores for the vacant team. I would change to you must beat the sum of your averages. While the Average minus ten is fine when bowling against a team that failed to show up, rewarding the team that did show up with what should be an easy win, it seems to easy for use every week against the vacant team. I dislike the draw system for two reasons. First is that it is not fair in the sense that your scores are being compared to scores from a different pair of lanes that could be playing harder or easier than your pair. The second is that you will have to hang around for quite a while to find out if you won or lost.

I think this would make the league fair for every one, but then again I am prejudiced.;)

[J Anderson]

Actually, the league president cannot add a rule to the By Laws. Only the membership of the league can do that by a proposal and vote.


I believe that once the League Bylaws have been accepted by the membership on the first day of bowling, it takes a 100% acceptance vote by all of the team captains to change any rule or add anything new.

The original poster asked, "If you were the league "TRUMP" what rules would you change?" I assume,(yes I know what it means when...), that Fordman1 meant if USBC rules allowed changing the by-laws by executive order.

[fordman1]

Actually what I meant was if you had the opportunity and could write all the rules on your own which ones would you change.

USBC has rules on their website. There are many that can be altered and others that must be followed as written.

Just curious which ones you don't like.

They recommend for a five bowler team you must bowl within 50 pins of your average to win a game and points. You are allowed to change this rule.

Each team in a certified league should get a copy of the bylaws the first night of bowling. If you have your meeting the first night they should be passed out the next scheduled time you bowl.

[Mike White]

The original poster asked, "If you were the league "TRUMP" what rules would you change?" I assume,(yes I know what it means when...), that Fordman1 meant if USBC rules allowed changing the by-laws by executive order.

Before I used an executive order to change rules, I think I'd want to know how many "2nd amendment" bowlers were in the league.

[1VegasBowler]

Before I used an executive order to change rules, I think I'd want to know how many "2nd amendment" bowlers were in the league.

Funny, but very true.

Using an executive order for bowling is a sure fire way of not being league president again.

[Amyers]

If you can't go 3 hours without smoking, you have a problem. You might want to see an addiction specialist.

Dr I'm a smoker I try to be accommodative to others with it by only smoking during breaks between games but your being ridiculous and unfair to others with this. I'm sure it's annoying somewhat when you have to wait for smokers to come back. It's also annoying when I bowl with women who take to long in the bathroom, parent's that bring their children, guys who drink and I have to wait for them to come back from the bar, and of course the people that wander off to have a conversation. We get rid of all of those we will really have a good time in an empty alley.

If you dislike being in the bowling alley so much why do you even go? Maybe you should just look into open bowling where it's just you maybe rent the lanes on each side of you so you can really focus.

[1VegasBowler]

Dr I'm a smoker I try to be accommodative to others with it by only smoking during breaks between games but your being ridiculous and unfair to others with this. I'm sure it's annoying somewhat when you have to wait for smokers to come back. It's also annoying when I bowl with women who take to long in the bathroom, parent's that bring their children, guys who drink and I have to wait for them to come back from the bar, and of course the people that wander off to have a conversation. We get rid of all of those we will really have a good time in an empty alley.

If you dislike being in the bowling alley so much why do you even go? Maybe you should just look into open bowling where it's just you maybe rent the lanes on each side of you so you can really focus.

I'm on the same page here with you.

As a smoker, I'll walk away to the lounge where I can see my team mates and keep a very close eye as to what is going on so that I don't slow the pace of the game.

And to be honest, as I am far from the socialite, there are people who come to me and ask questions because I'm on the USBC BoD and that takes up more time than walking away for my smoke.

You also make a great point about the other things that slow things down, but it is hardly mentioned. Why is that?

Maybe because going to the can or getting the drink(s) or watching the kids, etc., is more acceptable than smoking. But it is annoying to have to wait for those things as well.

If somebody wants to take this to the extreme, why not implement the, what is it, 25 or 30 second rule that the PBA has? That will certainly go over like a lead balloon.

[JJKinGA]

If I had executive order privileges, I would do away with pre-bowling, post-bowling and subs. These are all abused to take advantage of another team. They are in place to try and help everyone who pays to get to bowl. But I would say, you pay for team membership - not for bowling. If you aren't there then too bad - your team suffers with your absentee score. If I am not there then too bad for me.

But since that is not open to executive order, I just ry and enforce the rules as written and adopted by the league. (Which right now is wide open - but it doesn't have a huge impact and isn't so inconvenient or annoying).

For the most part, the rules are just fine.

[fordman1]

drlawsonini said the bowlers on his league went outside between games and stayed 15 minutes is that acceptable?
For as long as it takes to finish the 10th frame each bowler should have time to go out and smoke for 4-5 minutes and still be back for their turn in the next game.

We stopped a most of pre and post bowling with rules changes.
We don't have subs we have 8 man teams for our 5 man league.
You only have to have "2" bowlers to make up a team.
If you can't get 2 out of 8 there better be a really good or bad reason.

[Amyers]

drlawsonini said the bowlers on his league went outside between games and stayed 15 minutes is that acceptable?
For as long as it takes to finish the 10th frame each bowler should have time to go out and smoke for 4-5 minutes and still be back for their turn in the next game.

We stopped a most of pre and post bowling with rules changes.
We don't have subs we have 8 man teams for our 5 man league.
You only have to have "2" bowlers to make up a team.
If you can't get 2 out of 8 there better be a really good or bad reason.

Actually Ford that's not what he said here's the Quote.


I would probably ban smoking. More because it's an annoyance to wait on people. In a 5 person team league if an entire team goes out to smoke you can be waiting on them for 15 minutes as they're BSing with other smokers. That and the fact that we have to smell the stale cigarette and smoke smell when they come back in the alley.

In WV about 40% of the populations smokes probably more like 60% if your looking at middle aged men with disposable income which is the primary bowling demographic. What usually happens is after the last shot the leadoff goes out you see the 4th guy come out you know its time to go back in. 15 minutes is a long time but if its between games it might annoy me but enough to single 1 group out probably not. I've often enough waiting that long for someone getting drinks from the bar, food, bathroom, getting another ball out of the car and I even bowled on a team with the lane mechanic for a couple of seasons. Something broke the game picked back up after he fixed it. Such is life I don't go to the bowling alley to stress over time I've got work for that. Really what difference does it make? I get to sit around with my friends for an extra 30 minutes, drink my drink of choice, and enjoy life. If I get home a few minutes late for my favorite show that's why they invented the DVR.

I think the part I found the most offensive is complaining about the smoke smell. If it offends you my apologies but it's my life and I'll do what I want with it. What's next? How about we ban people who only wear cheap cologne? I find that smell much worse. Maybe the guy that comes bowling directly from work and maybe isn't lily fresh? Maybe you don't like the smell of liquor or beer on peoples breath let's get rid of them. We start singling out groups of people who have something about them that you personally don't like it won't be long before theirs a rule against something you do too.

[fordman1]

That is a lot of smokers 60% of middle aged men? We don't have any time between games. When the last man finishes on the pair the score is recorded and I tell my lead off man that I got it and he steps up and goes. We actually have waitresses at our center they can take food orders and drink orders. Bathroom breaks are unavoidable unless you expect them to wear those diapers. I still can't get over that many smokers. I would bet we don't have 10%.

[drlawsoniii]

Actually Ford that's not what he said here's the Quote.



In WV about 40% of the populations smokes probably more like 60% if your looking at middle aged men with disposable income which is the primary bowling demographic. What usually happens is after the last shot the leadoff goes out you see the 4th guy come out you know its time to go back in. 15 minutes is a long time but if its between games it might annoy me but enough to single 1 group out probably not. I've often enough waiting that long for someone getting drinks from the bar, food, bathroom, getting another ball out of the car and I even bowled on a team with the lane mechanic for a couple of seasons. Something broke the game picked back up after he fixed it. Such is life I don't go to the bowling alley to stress over time I've got work for that. Really what difference does it make? I get to sit around with my friends for an extra 30 minutes, drink my drink of choice, and enjoy life. If I get home a few minutes late for my favorite show that's why they invented the DVR.

I think the part I found the most offensive is complaining about the smoke smell. If it offends you my apologies but it's my life and I'll do what I want with it. What's next? How about we ban people who only wear cheap cologne? I find that smell much worse. Maybe the guy that comes bowling directly from work and maybe isn't lily fresh? Maybe you don't like the smell of liquor or beer on peoples breath let's get rid of them. We start singling out groups of people who have something about them that you personally don't like it won't be long before theirs a rule against something you do too.


I stand by my statement 100% smoking is a life choice (not some uncontrollable condition) if it is disruptive to the game which in my case at the alley i bowl at, it is. I get tired of waiting around for people to smoke and people taking forever to go to the bathroom or get a drink isn't really an issue at my alley. The smokers on the other hand who reek of smoke and it just billows off of their clothes like pigpen in the peanuts cartoon is rough on my sinuses and really affects my wanting to associate or play against them. It is your choice to smoke it's not like it's an affliction, so if it disrupts the game then yes i want it banned.

[Mike White]

I stand by my statement 100% smoking is a life choice

Yep, smokers are choosing how to live, and how to die.

[foreverincamo]

I bowl in two leagues. Main league the smokers run outside and hit a cigarette for a few minutes and get back within 5 minutes. The other league is a trio league where the main reason to be there is to drink, smoke , and have a good time. Bowling gets in the way some nights. It's a strange bunch.

[foreverincamo]

As for the original question, perhaps changing the handicap to 80% of 200. Anything over 200 gets nothing.

[fordman1]

You do understand that any team or bowler under 200 would have no chance at all against a bowler with 210-215-220-225-230- or more.
You know that because you are not a stupid person. I think you are just trying to stir up some controversy. If not I guess I could show you some samples.

[NewToBowling]

I would vote for a cap on handicap. I've seen too many 90 avg bowlers bowl 150-160 games.

[fordman1]

No one knows what kind of bowler you are so your H\C opinion doesn't mean much. Your profile is blank.
All teams should get H\C as a team not as an individual. So a 90 avg. bowler bowling won't make much difference.
In our league we have H\C pots and now one get to use anything under 160 for an average. Not a bylaw matter because it is a side pot.
USBC has a chart that says that you would need 114% to make it a fair chance for low avg. bowlers.
There again that is what bylaws are for. To determine what is fair for every league. Just be careful when determining what to use.

[J Anderson]

No one knows what kind of bowler you are so your H\C opinion doesn't mean much. Your profile is blank.
All teams should get H\C as a team not as an individual. So a 90 avg. bowler bowling won't make much difference.
In our league we have H\C pots and now one get to use anything under 160 for an average. Not a bylaw matter because it is a side pot.
USBC has a chart that says that you would need 114% to make it a fair chance for low avg. bowlers.
There again that is what bylaws are for. To determine what is fair for every league. Just be careful when determining what to use.

And there is the problem, getting everyone to agree what fair is. The USBC study didn't say 114% was fair. It said that 114% was the point where low average teams would have an even chance of winning. Any time handicap goes over 90% the higher skilled bowlers want to leave. When the handicap goes the other way, new bowlers stay away.

Still a free country, anyone is entitled to express an opinion.

[Mike White]

I would vote for a cap on handicap. I've seen too many 90 avg bowlers bowl 150-160 games.

What is "worse", a 90 avg bowler shooting 160, or a 230 avg bowler shooting 300?

[Mike White]

As for the original question, perhaps changing the handicap to 80% of 200. Anything over 200 gets nothing.

I was in a league a couple of years ago where in the meeting, someone recommended the rules change from 90% of 200, to 90% 0f 225 because there was a person in the league who averaged 220 the previous season.

The loudest objection came from a guy who averages 180.

His reason was the 220 guy's scores were high enough, he didn't need any handicap in addition.

I explained to the 180 guy that while the 220 guy would be getting 4 pins, the 180 guy would be getting 22 more pins.

I guess people are accustomed to people supporting rules if those rules give the supporter an advantage.

They ultimately settled on 90% of 210.

[fordman1]

If it is a team game why do you have individual handicap? We use 90% from 1100. Only time individual h\c comes into play if in Jackpots and they are 100% from 230.

[Mike White]

And there is the problem, getting everyone to agree what fair is. The USBC study didn't say 114% was fair. It said that 114% was the point where low average teams would have an even chance of winning. Any time handicap goes over 90% the higher skilled bowlers want to leave. When the handicap goes the other way, new bowlers stay away.

Still a free country, anyone is entitled to express an opinion.

Getting everyone to agree about what is fair is actually simple.

The solution to fair, also happens to be the solution to slow bowling because of smoking, drinking, child care, talking, etc.

At the beginning of the session, for each point to be awarded, the team captains flip a coin to determine who wins the point.

You can't get any fairer than a coin flip.

Also if the other team is slow, your team just keeps on bowling.

When you've completed all your games, or if for any reason you can't complete, you're free to leave, since the points have already been decided.

[foreverincamo]

I am saying that a bowler threw a 300 game and lost the jackpot. Not by a few pins but by 35. That's crazy. I also lost the jackpot when I shot 300 in 2014.
My last league before 2014 ended in 1994. We used 80% of 210 back then. Now it's 80% of 230. How much handicap is needed to " level" the playing field?

[Mike White]

I am saying that a bowler threw a 300 game and lost the jackpot. Not by a few pins but by 35. That's crazy. I also lost the jackpot when I shot 300 in 2014.
My last league before 2014 ended in 1994. We used 80% of 210 back then. Now it's 80% of 230. How much handicap is needed to " level" the playing field?

If you shot 300 and didn't win the side pot then someone else shot more over their average than you did.

The issue isn't handicap, its easy oil patterns which allow averages to be inflated while the highest possible score still remains 300.

[fordman1]

Side pots have nothing to do with bylaws. They are not controlled by the league. If you don't like the way they are run don't get in or start one you think is more fair to you.

[Mike White]

Side pots have nothing to do with bylaws. They are not controlled by the league. If you don't like the way they are run don't get in or start one you think is more fair to you.

If your side pots include handicap, don't they use the same values (90% of 220 for example) that your league voted into bylaws?

[foreverincamo]

They use the same handicap formula as the league uses. They used to alternate weeks and go hi scratch, hi handicap, hi scratch then reverse it the next week. Now it's all handicap every game. I shot 111 pins over my average and still lost with my 300.
It's not a killer league. There is one guy who gets 0 handicap. There are a few guys between 210 to 225. The rest are under 210, some as low as 100. The money at the end of the year is almost the same whether you win the league or come in last. It's like bowling and having a savings account to pay for the upcoming golf season.

[stargell1]

Until they ban smoke breaks, I may never join another league. The breaks throw me out of rhythm, and the smell of cancer sticks are disgusting.

[fordman1]

If your side pots include handicap, don't they use the same values (90% of 220 for example) that your league voted into bylaws?

No they are different. I took over pots a year before being elected Sec. The old collector and two of his friends were averaging 225-230 and his h\c was 100% from 200 and it was a 12 team league. He refused to change to something different. So I started a 100% from 230 and after 2 weeks no one got into his pot and it folded. The league is now a full house and our post will be over $100,000 again this year.
Again pots are independent of league functions. Every league is different and that is the way it should be but all should try to be as fair as possible. Nothing wrong with scratch pots.

[foreverincamo]

Banning smoke breaks makes for jittery bowlers. I know the one league I sub in takes a 15 minute break between games. But it's the entire league and they are cool with it. They also don't care if your ball bounces out of the gutter and picks up the spare.

[foreverincamo]

I guess the point I am trying to make is, in my opinion, if you average 200 or over, you shouldn't get any help via handicap. I do understand there are people who can average 245-250 but they aren't in my league. Maybe I can't see the forest for the trees.

[fordman1]

Banning smoke breaks makes for jittery bowlers. I know the one league I sub in takes a 15 minute break between games. But it's the entire league and they are cool with it. They also don't care if your ball bounces out of the gutter and picks up the spare.

Uncertified leagues can do whatever they want. Certified leagues have rules and must abide to them.
Do you get a warm up ball between games? If my league did that half would quit because it would get done too late. Some have to get up a 5-6 A. M. and running over 30 minutes to smoke is not going to work when we don't start until 8 P.M.

[fordman1]

It doesn't matter if you are 180 or 240 if you use team average. WTH either bowl or smoke don't mix up which one you came to the center for.

[Mike White]

It doesn't matter if you are 180 or 240 if you use team average. WTH either bowl or smoke don't mix up which one you came to the center for.

What matters is if your team (in your league) exceeds 1100 in average.

The problem is the same, different methods just make it less likely to exceed the threshold.

[fordman1]

Not allowed to start the season over 1050. During the year can't add any bowler that would put you over 1050. To get over 1050 you would have to have someone go up 50 pins or have the team as a whole go up 50.

[foreverincamo]

Uncertified leagues can do whatever they want. Certified leagues have rules and must abide to them.
Do you get a warm up ball between games? .

No warm up shots between games, and it's only a trios league so even though we start warmups around 7 and have a half hour of smoke breaks and beer runs, we're done by 9:30. Which is good considering it's a 40 minute to get home

[fordman1]

If it works for you guys the that is great. I think I would have a melt down.