This ball is just not right for me - what next?

[taxexpert2]

I have come to the conclusion that the new ball I purchased is just not the right ball for me. I think I will talk to the pro shop and see what they suggest but it has never really felt right and despite getting a few 200 games on it, it (or probably me) is inconsistent and I am very unhappy. Have others had this happen? It is just so different from any other balls I have used.

[J Anderson]

I have come to the conclusion that the new ball I purchased is just not the right ball for me. I think I will talk to the pro shop and see what they suggest but it has never really felt right and despite getting a few 200 games on it, it (or probably me) is inconsistent and I am very unhappy. Have others had this happen? It is just so different from any other balls I have used.

Most of the time when I run into bowlers suffering from buyers remorse, it's because they bought a ball for the wrong reason. Most often that they just wanted a new bakk even though they were still getting good carry from the old ones. When you do actually need a new ball, either to replace one that used to work well or to give you a better option for certain lane conditions, getting the advice of a PSO who knows your game can be all you need to make a choice. If you don't have a PSO that you can trust, then you need to do some research.

What worries me is that you say, "...it has never really felt right...". This makes it sound like the ball is not drilled the same as your other ones. While the span and hole sizes may be the same, the pitches may be different causing it to feel wrong. Since the finger and thumb pitches can affect the release this may be the cause of your inconsistency. Even if the pitches aren't directly affecting your release, the sense of it feeling different may be causing an inconsistent release. I would start with having the grip double checked, posibly by someone other than the original driller.

If the fit is right, then talk to the PSO about getting something that works better with the way you play your local lanes.

[RobLV1]

...or change the surface 7 or 8 times until you find one that works.

[bowl1820]

Have others had this happen?

In a way, years back I got a MoRich Labyrinth and that ball did nothing when I first got it. I changed surfaces but that didn't help, the problem was the layout.

The bowtie was right dead in the middle of my middle finger hole, I had similar layouts on my other balls at the time and they didn't track like that on the ball.

So we plugged and changed the layout based on the info in the MoRich drilling instructions of the time. Which made a big difference, the bowtie moved away from the hole and the ball was hooking a ton.

[Blomer]

This is why having the right PSO is important. They should know how you bowl and the pieces you are ad have to suggest what works best for you. Some PSOs wlll see you wha you want even if you dont need it because it's a sale or it's something they have been trying to get rid of. But a good PSO will see you on your needs. My guy will tell me if the ball s right for me or not. He knows what I got, know how I roll it, and knows my needs.

[Timmyb]

I won a Brunswick Melee Hook on here. Gave it away after about 6 months. I could not get that thing to work. My Black Widow is entirely different. After a week I knew I was in tall cotton.

[KYDave]

I have now attended 3 different ball demos (1 motiv, 2 EBI) and love going to them. You can try before you buy and I have learned there are balls that are ok, some not so good, and some great for how I bowl.

I would recommend trying to go to one of these if possible.

If I remember, isn't this a 14lb vs rest of your balls 15lb? Maybe a timing issue? I think Rob had a good suggestion of trying different surfaces on the ball to see if that helps before you abandon ship.

Good luck!

[bigt_45]

What is the layout? Is it way different from your norm?

[Tony]

I have come to the conclusion that the new ball I purchased is just not the right ball for me. I think I will talk to the pro shop and see what they suggest but it has never really felt right and despite getting a few 200 games on it, it (or probably me) is inconsistent and I am very unhappy. Have others had this happen? It is just so different from any other balls I have used.

Going back to the PSO and telling him how the ball feels and what it's doing is exactly what you should do, there are a number of potential issues with the ball that could be some of the cause, also don't overlook the fact it could you also causing part of the issue. With some of the ball experts around here it might be a good idea to include the model of ball as well as the other balls you regularly throw to see what surface changes might be worth trying.....
If in the end you can't make it work, I'm sure one of your buddies will give you a few bucks for the ball.....or you can send it to me :cool:

[chip82901]

I've never been big on changing surfaces (just a personal thing), but I have on certain balls. I have also had a few balls that just DID NOT WORK for me (ebonite mission 2.0 comes to mind first and foremost). Luckily, the way I got the mission 2.0, I wasn't out any money (won city tourney scratch, cracked out 2 Hammer Jigsaw Corner's and my alley had issues with ordering another from CBS and had the 2.0 in stock). None the less, if it's a feel issue, definitely have pitches checked. If it's just not reacting how you would like, or rolling weird, could be the layout or the surface.

[taxexpert2]

Well, I took the advice of one person here and got a second opinion. Was told the ball was not drilled the way it was meant to be drilled. Resurfaced it and put in a balancing hole. (No charge) Ball is somewhat better but I need a little more time to make certain of it. It performed well in league last Wed except for the last game when I could not figure out what adjustment to make. My son says I should have been moving left when I moved right. I pretty much agreed with that. It was the same conclusion I came to as I went home that night. Bowl again in league today, will see what happens.

Thanks for all the input. Hate to think I spent the money foolishly but it happens.

[vdubtx]

I have certainly purchased my share of duds over the course of the last several years. But, the absolutely perfect ones outweigh those. :)

Did you take to original shop? I am always hesitant to do that. Seems shops, like many businesses, take any chance to bash another.

Surface and weight hole might be enough for you. Might need to experiment with position of said hole to get reaction and look you want to dial it in.

[bigt_45]

What size was the balance hole and where did they put it in relation to your PAP?

[taxexpert2]

Thank you all for your input. After seeing me bowl with this ball both before and after the changes my favorite coach agrees with me that this ball was never right for me and probably never will be. It just won't work the way I need it to. It can work to a limited extent on some alley conditions so I will probably keep it, but will be looking for something different for everyday bowling. These are the lessons we learn even as we try to not screw things up.

[Tony]

Just curious, I didn't see the ball mentioned, what ball is it ?

[taxexpert2]

The new ball is a Vandal Smash 14 lb. I bowled today with my son's old ball - with drilling not modified for me. It is a 15 lb sync. I did better with that ball than the Smash. I think it is the core that I cannot get used to . The core is asymmetrical and I have never bowled with an asymmetrical ball before. I don't think I want to spend the time at this point to learn the finer points of it as I am very upset I let myself "save" a little money by getting this ball. Son's new ball of course is a Timeless, which he loves, and deserves. He is bowling well with it and says it feels better than any other ball he has owned. He is 35 years younger than me. He deserves it. I am on the hunt for a new ball although I don't want to spend the money.

[Tony]

The new ball is a Vandal Smash 14 lb. I bowled today with my son's old ball - with drilling not modified for me. It is a 15 lb sync. I did better with that ball than the Smash. I think it is the core that I cannot get used to . The core is asymmetrical and I have never bowled with an asymmetrical ball before. I don't think I want to spend the time at this point to learn the finer points of it as I am very upset I let myself "save" a little money by getting this ball. Son's new ball of course is a Timeless, which he loves, and deserves. He is bowling well with it and says it feels better than any other ball he has owned. He is 35 years younger than me. He deserves it. I am on the hunt for a new ball although I don't want to spend the money.

Maybe you can sell or trade it and recover some of the cost, it can happen with anyone and with any ball, one of my buddies just got a Timeless and a Hustle, hates the Timeless and loves the Hustle, when we were talking about how similar the Timeless is to the Hy Road, he said yeah I had one of those too, never really liked it ..... He keeps going back the the Alpha Crux for a strike ball on fresh oil.
Live and Learn, I gave away a Brunswick Gold Rhino Pro a couple of years ago, my buddy who has it got it out and shot a 278 with it last week....I was inconsistent with it, but I did shoot a 289 with it one day.....

[taxexpert2]

Just made a decision (after looking at where the money is coming from). I am going to get another HyRoad. Going today to get measured up. Pick it up in time for league tomorrow. I am just soooo unhappy with the Vandal Smash I don't even want to bowl any more. It will put this whole episode to rest and I won't be complaining.

[chip82901]

Maybe you can sell or trade it and recover some of the cost, it can happen with anyone and with any ball, one of my buddies just got a Timeless and a Hustle, hates the Timeless and loves the Hustle, when we were talking about how similar the Timeless is to the Hy Road, he said yeah I had one of those too, never really liked it ..... He keeps going back the the Alpha Crux for a strike ball on fresh oil.
Live and Learn, I gave away a Brunswick Gold Rhino Pro a couple of years ago, my buddy who has it got it out and shot a 278 with it last week....I was inconsistent with it, but I did shoot a 289 with it one day.....

I've only thrown a few games with my Timeless and I'm not sure if I like it yet or not. I love the way it reads the lanes, but its so aggressive on the back end I just don't think I'll be able to throw it on our 40ft ths without changing the surface, which will get rid of the drive it has on the back end. There will be a time and place that ball comes in handy, just don't know when

[RobLV1]

I've only thrown a few games with my Timeless and I'm not sure if I like it yet or not. I love the way it reads the lanes, but its so aggressive on the back end I just don't think I'll be able to throw it on our 40ft ths without changing the surface, which will get rid of the drive it has on the back end. There will be a time and place that ball comes in handy, just don't know when

I know a lot of bowlers who are adding a little surface on top of the polish to tame down the backend on the Timeless. It seems to be working for them.

[RobLV1]

The Vandal Smash has a very Low RG, while the HyRoad (and the Timeless) have pretty high RG's. Being that you don't like to change surfaces (I'll NEVER understand that stance), I think that it's pretty important that you try to learn something about cores past just symmetry. There are over 250 current release bowling balls on the market at any given time. It is certainly worth the time and effort it takes to learn what makes them do what they do without any "eenie, meanie, minee, mo" involved!

[Tony]

I know a lot of bowlers who are adding a little surface on top of the polish to tame down the backend on the Timeless. It seems to be working for them.

I'm not sure what "adding surface on top of the polish" means or how that's done ? Could you please explain ?

[Amyers]

Lightly surface the ball by with a 3k or 4k pad using light pressure

[chip82901]

I know a lot of bowlers who are adding a little surface on top of the polish to tame down the backend on the Timeless. It seems to be working for them.

I know all about surface changes. I've actually added a bit of polish to it to help it get down lane, while still keeping the same drive on the back end. If I change the surface, it will get rid of the motion I want on the back end. Say, I take it to 4000 grit, it is going to smooth the ball out, and not have that drive on the back end through the pins. Now, if it comes down to it, I'll make the change, but I need to get some more games on it before I make that decision.

[Tony]

Lightly surface the ball by with a 3k or 4k pad using light pressure

Thanks Amyers!

OK, won't the sanding essentially remove the polish ? It's the "add surface over polish" statement that was confusing.

I've done lots of sanding on cars, wood, and assorted other things and never experienced a situation where the polish survived the sanding .....leading to wondering what the statement meant.

[bowl1820]

Thanks Amyers!

OK, won't the sanding essentially remove the polish ? It's the "add surface over polish" statement that was confusing.
.

Yes that is a confusing statement!

The majority of Polishes in bowling are just liquid abrasives, they are not like a coat of paint or wax that can be layered on or sanded off.

When you apply polish, your just sanding at a finer grit. The only time your adding something is if your using a polish with a slip agent.

So when someone "adds surface over polish" their just dulling a surface they had too smooth to begin with, their not removing a coat of polish.

[Tony]

Yes that is a confusing statement!

The majority of Polishes in bowling are just liquid abrasives, they are not like a coat of paint or wax that can be layered on or sanded off.

When you apply polish, your just sanding at a finer grit. The only time your adding something is if your using a polish with a slip agent.

So when someone "adds surface over polish" their just dulling a surface they had too smooth to begin with, their not removing a coat of polish.

I was equating it with automotive polishes, they are also abrasives that are used to remove a small amount of paint, and take out scratches, sanding over the top will typically remove the effect of the polish ( I just said remove the polish in my earlier question) and take off a slightly deeper layer of paint or all the paint depending on what's done to the paint surface.
I guess it's just one of those unique bowling statements that's meaning is relative to bowling and wasn't fully understood by me, thanks for elaborating on the explanation.

[taxexpert2]

Hy-Road ordered and delivered. VERY VERY much happier with this ball and the way it bowls. Still adjusting to the lower weight, but it does not seem to be forcing me to bowl in a very different way. Perhaps if the Vandal Smash had been drilled properly in the first place it would have been better. Not going to look back on this. The guy who drilled the HyRoad is young and did an excellent job. I am to old to really want to find out about some of the newer symmetry balls but thanks for the suggestion. I am going to keep the Vandal Smash as I think it will have limited use. An expensive lesson. Between my two balls and my son's Timeless it has been an expensive bowling season.

[Aslan]

I had similar problems with both Rotogrip balls I've used: The Asylum and the Defiant Edge. They just didn't work for me.

I've also went to ball demos...and found them generally useless.

And the one thing most PSOs have in common...is they love to blame other PSOs.

In somewhat agreement with RobM on this one. Not so much on the surfacing...that's a temporary fix that requires alot of upkeep...might be better off with a ball that actually "works" for you. That's like changing your approach to match a ball in my opinion. But, I do agree with Rob that there is really no substitute for understanding what the bowling ball specs mean, or at least are supposed to mean. If you have a ball with a 2.48 RG and it's rolling out too early...adding surface to it will cause it to roll out sooner...theoretically.

Now, could you change your line? Change your release? Change your loft? Change your speed? Change your surface? Yeah...but knowing your arsenal and specs...and buying a ball that matches your game is probably easier.

[Amyers]

I had similar problems with both Rotogrip balls I've used: The Asylum and the Defiant Edge. They just didn't work for me.


The Asylum you had was in my opinion poorly laid out. I've never understood why the Defiant Edge didn't work for you. Unfortunately not much to learn there as they are two totally different balls with different purposes other than maybe you shouldn't buy RG balls but they make good equipment so that's not it.


In somewhat agreement with RobM on this one. Not so much on the surfacing...that's a temporary fix that requires alot of upkeep...might be better off with a ball that actually "works" for you.

I have never understood your take on this. So if you resurface the ball to a different surface you understand that it requires upkeep and maintenance to maintain it but how is the OOB surface any different? I'm guessing somehow the OOB surface on bowling balls is magical and doesn't require the same?

[RobLV1]

Even when they come from the same manufacturer, different brands of balls utilize different formulations for their cover materials. Over the years, I have had a lot of success with Storm balls, and very little success with Roto Grip balls. The reason is the difference in the amount of mid-lane read between the brands. Because I have a lot of forward roll in my release, the additional mid-lane read in Roto Grip balls results in balls that roll out for me. The important thing about bowling balls is to understand the differences: both what is known because of manufacturer transparancy (core numbers and surface preparation) and what is only learned through experience: primarily the difference between cover materials.

[NewToBowling]

Even when they come from the same manufacturer, different brands of balls utilize different formulations for their cover materials. Over the years, I have had a lot of success with Storm balls, and very little success with Roto Grip balls. The reason is the difference in the amount of mid-lane read between the brands. Because I have a lot of forward roll in my release, the additional mid-lane read in Roto Grip balls results in balls that roll out for me. The important thing about bowling balls is to understand the differences: both what is known because of manufacturer transparancy (core numbers and surface preparation) and what is only learned through experience: primarily the difference between cover materials.

Just wondering how cohesive Storm and Roto Grip work together. Did Storm buy Roto Grip or was Roto Grip always under the arm (and thus an extension) of Storm.

[Amyers]

Even when they come from the same manufacturer, different brands of balls utilize different formulations for their cover materials. Over the years, I have had a lot of success with Storm balls, and very little success with Roto Grip balls. The reason is the difference in the amount of mid-lane read between the brands. Because I have a lot of forward roll in my release, the additional mid-lane read in Roto Grip balls results in balls that roll out for me. The important thing about bowling balls is to understand the differences: both what is known because of manufacturer transparancy (core numbers and surface preparation) and what is only learned through experience: primarily the difference between cover materials.

That's interesting didn't really know there was a major difference between covers between Storm and Roto but now that you mention it a lot of rotogrips stuff does seem to have an earlier roll. How would you compare that to Brunswick? Who tends to hook a little more in oil.

[RobLV1]

I really don't know the background history of Roto Grip and Storm, but they have always had a separate brand identity and a different ball reaction.

As to Roto Grip as compared to Brunswick, both are known for their mid lane roll, but Roto tends to be snappier on the back end. Brunswick cores historically are more center-heavy and early rolling.

[KYDave]

Roto Grip was around way before Storm. That being said, I'm not sure when they came together.

I am a big fan of changing surface. I've done it so much now after getting my own spinner it's even less of a big deal. Even balls I keep at factory I will touch up on a schedule. Heck I even have a binder and each ball has its own tab lol.

Taxexpert- Glad you found something that works better for you!!

[Aslan]

The Asylum you had was in my opinion poorly laid out. I've never understood why the Defiant Edge didn't work for you. Unfortunately not much to learn there as they are two totally different balls with different purposes other than maybe you shouldn't buy RG balls but they make good equipment so that's not it.
Drilling layout is one of the most 'minor' effects on ball motion. Most amateurs would be hard-pressed to see any effect by moving the pin around. PSOs tend to "over-rate" drilling layouts...because it's the one thing they can actually control/offer the consumer during the drilling process. Throwing a sanded, solid ball with a low RG...you can lay it out however you want...it's gonna roll out on wood lanes.




I have never understood your take on this. So if you resurface the ball to a different surface you understand that it requires upkeep and maintenance to maintain it but how is the OOB surface any different? I'm guessing somehow the OOB surface on bowling balls is magical and doesn't require the same?
I misspoke a little bit.
As Bowl1820 posted in another thread...balls lose surface over the course of use. So if you have a 500 surface...that becomes a 1400, 1700, 2000, 2300, 3100, 3500, etc... over time. So, you DO need to perform surface maintenance over time if you want to maintain an OOB surface. And SURFACE...is the #1 factor in ball motion....that's been proven again and again.

Where we "disagree"...is the use of surface on a regular basis to try and make adjustments to ball reaction.
1) True surface manipulation requires a ball spinner....which < 2% of bowlers have access to...without paying $3-$35 a pop. If you want a different surface for each league you're in...each week...you could pay out $40 a week for that service. Over the course of a league...thats $800. You could buy an entire arsenal for that money.
2) If you're relying on surface, to keep your ball from acting a certain way...it begs the question..."why not get a ball that works the way you want it to...with only minimal surfacing upkeep?" Like, if I played on a very long, PBA animal pattern...and I really needed a sanded, RG Hyper Cell...but instead bought a Storm Ride. Could I surface the Ride to make it work? Sure. You could sand it down to 180...make the layout as aggressive as possible, etc... BUT...you'd have to maintain that surface every week...and it probably still wouldn't be as ideal (in terms of power/carry) as the sanded Hyper Cell.

I look at surfacing as mostly a "maintenance" task. If you have a ball...and you need a "tweek" to it's reaction...you can touch it up with some stronger or duller surface...depending on what you need. But to buy a ball that is non-ideal...then try to surface it to make it ideal...is like those kids that buy Honda Civics and add loud mufflers, nitro, and spoilers to the back. Might have just been better to by a Mustang if you wanted a fast car.

[LOUVIT]

I know what you are feeling, When I won my Storm Phaze from here I thought I was set. A week before that I bought a Track Heat, after many re drillings and other things I despise the Phaze but keep trying to make it work. This is not saying it's a bad ball at all it moves strong for sure but the 2 balls are drilled identical yet I can't release the Phaze like the Track....Have the PSO watch you throw the 2 balls, you may like I think I am treating them differently?

[taxexpert2]

An update to all of you who might be interested in this thread. It has taken me some time and input from a very knowledgeable bowling alley coach to finally get the right grip on both my 14# Vandal Smash and Hyroad. I can now honestly say this was a good move for me to make althought it has come with a lot of self doubt and questioning as to whether or not I should even be bowling. Where I bowl there are three brothers who take care of the place and the bowlers. One of them is a certified coach and he watches as ppl bowl and offers input when he sees things that are wrong. He gave me the best tip I have ever gotten - keep your elbow in. Don't really know what I was doing but after making this change my average is going back up rapidly. So, if you are wondering where to start - one place to start is by keeping your elbow in.

[Amyers]

Drilling layout is one of the most 'minor' effects on ball motion. Most amateurs would be hard-pressed to see any effect by moving the pin around. PSOs tend to "over-rate" drilling layouts...because it's the one thing they can actually control/offer the consumer during the drilling process. Throwing a sanded, solid ball with a low RG...you can lay it out however you want...it's gonna roll out on wood lanes..


First off sorry must have missed this reply. While I agree the drilling is far down the scale after surface, cover, and core it can easily make a problem worse. If you have a ball that you were going to have a hard time getting into a roll and the driller uses a layout to promote length it's certainly going to make the situation worse and the opposite for an early rolling ball.




I misspoke a little bit.
As Bowl1820 posted in another thread...balls lose surface over the course of use. So if you have a 500 surface...that becomes a 1400, 1700, 2000, 2300, 3100, 3500, etc... over time. So, you DO need to perform surface maintenance over time if you want to maintain an OOB surface. And SURFACE...is the #1 factor in ball motion....that's been proven again and again.

Where we "disagree"...is the use of surface on a regular basis to try and make adjustments to ball reaction.
1) True surface manipulation requires a ball spinner....which < 2% of bowlers have access to...without paying $3-$35 a pop. If you want a different surface for each league you're in...each week...you could pay out $40 a week for that service. Over the course of a league...thats $800. You could buy an entire arsenal for that money.
2) If you're relying on surface, to keep your ball from acting a certain way...it begs the question..."why not get a ball that works the way you want it to...with only minimal surfacing upkeep?" Like, if I played on a very long, PBA animal pattern...and I really needed a sanded, RG Hyper Cell...but instead bought a Storm Ride. Could I surface the Ride to make it work? Sure. You could sand it down to 180...make the layout as aggressive as possible, etc... BUT...you'd have to maintain that surface every week...and it probably still wouldn't be as ideal (in terms of power/carry) as the sanded Hyper Cell.

I look at surfacing as mostly a "maintenance" task. If you have a ball...and you need a "tweek" to it's reaction...you can touch it up with some stronger or duller surface...depending on what you need. But to buy a ball that is non-ideal...then try to surface it to make it ideal...is like those kids that buy Honda Civics and add loud mufflers, nitro, and spoilers to the back. Might have just been better to by a Mustang if you wanted a fast car.

I don't know that I've ever advocated changing the base surface for a ball weekly between leagues and yes that would only make sense if you owned a spinner and even then would likely be more work than I'd go to. If you need a Hyper Cell and buy a Ride your an idiot and surfacing can't fix your problems. Even with additional surface you may be able to get the Ride to perform better it will never be what Hyper Cell is.

If you make a permeant change to the surface maintaining the new surface is no more expensive or trouble than maintaining the OOB surface. As far as maintain what the manufacturer intended for the ball I used to put some stock in that unfortunately I've come to realize the manufacturers simply put whatever they think will sell best on the balls. It's why we see balls that are simply terrible ideas from the start much like Storms Optimus Solid. Bowlers who wait for the manufacture to introduce a solid of the pearl release or the opposite have s screw loose buy the ball and fix it to what you want.

[fordman1]

Anyone who says they have never bought a ball that isn't what they expected is lying. It happens to everyone. If you are lucky they can fix it. If not ask some friends you bowl with if you can try their ball during practice. Probably won't fit but might help some. It is a shame that it is such an expensive mistake.