League high average margin of 17 over the second place average.

[Tony]

I'm pretty sure that winning high season average by 17 pins over the nearest competitor is the most of any league I ever bowled in.

There are quite a few good bowlers in the league and typically the high average in in the 230's ( there are 7 or 8 players over 230)

Does 17 seem like a much wider spread that is typical in most leagues ?

[mc_runner]

Completely depends on the league. For a social league that only has a few decent bowlers, someone 220+ can easily run up a big margin. For a competitive league that has more money involved, I'd expect it to be closer.

[Tony]

Completely depends on the league. For a social league that only has a few decent bowlers, someone 220+ can easily run up a big margin. For a competitive league that has more money involved, I'd expect it to be closer.

It's a pretty competitive league with some pretty good bowlers, probably had 20 to 30 300 games and quite a few 800 series this season, last night had 1 300, 2 299's and 2 800's. There are 7 or 8 guys with 230 + avg, and another 10 - 15 over 220.
This fellow ran away with the league avg with over 250 and over 80 games bowled.

[fordman1]

He sounds like a really good bowler but it also sounds like a really easy house. Where is this great place at. I would like to see the league sheet.

[Aslan]

He sounds like a really good bowler but it also sounds like a really easy house. Where is this great place at. I would like to see the league sheet.

Exactly.

I've bowled in "easy" houses before...where there might be 3 perfect games a season...maybe 1 800 series. But most houses I've bowled at...I haven't seen any 800s and usually only 1-3 perfect games per season...if any.

And I've been fairly consistent, bowling in the 'better' house leagues at each house I bowl in...not some non-sanctioned "fun league"...so I usually bowl against the better bowlers in the area. Are there more "competitive" leagues? A few scratch leagues and high $$$ leagues scattered about...and I could see guys in those leagues having quite a few 215-220 average bowlers. But even in Southern California, those leagues are few and far between.

In typical "competitive house" leagues...the high average usually ends up being somewhere in the 210-220 range...with only maybe 5-10 bowlers over 200.

Not sure about Vegas...that's a different environment with lots of regional PBA players...so there's more 'talent'...but the lanes are in no way "easy"...so I doubt you'd have very many super-high averages, perfect games, nor 800 series.

[Tony]

Now that's is been condemned as a easy house with a bunch of high average no talent hacks why would I bother to post any information to dispute that, after all you guys apparently know everything already. IE if someone is better than you they are cheating, lying or shooting on a house shot you would average 300 on easy/ ********

Actually one of my teammates was just in Vegas for the USBC , he averaged 20 pins higher in Vegas ..... He's in the top 10 in the standings. Guess he's just lucky

[NewToBowling]

250 is good no matter what

[chip82901]

Sounds like a combo of good bowlers and a predictable, well-holding shot. Not that it's easy by any means, but when its predictable from night to night on how the lanes break down, or if they even break down, I could see averages up there like that. For instance, one house in Wyoming is notorious for having guys over 230+. Then, when us out of town guys go up to bowl a tourney, we see why. It's a predictable wall on the 7 board and flooded in the middle. It doesn't really break down, the oil tends to "push" a bit and you end up moving right. I wouldn't say it's an "easy" shot by any means, but, predictability in the break down from week to week sure does make a difference in average

[fordman1]

He sounds like a really good bowler but it also sounds like a really easy house. Where is this great place at. I would like to see the league sheet.
This doesn't sound like a unrealistic post?

[Tony]

This doesn't sound like a unrealistic post?

That wasn't the subject of the post now was it ? Wasn't the post talking about the unbelievable margin one extraordinary bowler managed to maintain over the rest of the league.
You decided to throw in some jabs and badmouth the league and all of the bowlers instead of commenting on the original subject.

[bowl1820]

Okay people lets not get carried away here.

[bowl1820]

I'm pretty sure that winning high season average by 17 pins over the nearest competitor is the most of any league I ever bowled in. There are quite a few good bowlers in the league and typically the high average in in the 230's ( there are 7 or 8 players over 230)


Does 17 seem like a much wider spread that is typical in most leagues ?

Pretty much mc_runner covered it with his reply, It's going to depend on the league and its makeup.

Example leagues:
A bowler who posts on another forum has high average on his league (This league wouldn't be considered highly competitive it's a little church league, Which only has 8- 4 player teams) with a 211 average. That ave. is 23 pins higher than the next highest bowler who only has a 188 average. The league overall average is 136 (154 just for the men).



On the league I bowl on, which is made up of 32 teams of 4 players with a 6 player roster (It is considered a moderately competitive league here) . We have 20 bowlers with a 200 and up average (6 with 220+ aves). The highest average is 242 (He's the PSO here and he's not a house hack.). The next highest ave. is 235 so only 7 pins difference. The league overall average is 170 (182 just for the men).

[Aslan]

I'm pretty sure that winning high season average by 17 pins over the nearest competitor is the most of any league I ever bowled in.

There are quite a few good bowlers in the league and typically the high average in in the 230's ( there are 7 or 8 players over 230)

Does 17 seem like a much wider spread that is typical in most leagues ?

Tony,
Lemme respond to your question a little differently, because I understand that you feel the responses were a bit "jaded". Maybe with this example/data; it'll help illustrate 'why' you got the response you did.

Below is some data on the leagues I've participated in over the past 4 years. I have only included medium-large leagues...where there were at least a handful of higher-average bowlers.

Purple = Wood Lanes (tends toward higher average for those that bowl there consistently)
Green = Easier House


K&Q (2013/2014):
# of bowlers: 50
High Average: 219
High Scratch Game: 289
High Scratch Series: 789
Bowlers > 200: 5
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 219-209 = 10 pins

KQ (2014):
# of bowlers: 60
High Average: 209
High Scratch Game: 278
High Scratch Series: 734
Bowlers > 200: 4
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 209-207 = 2 pins

54V (2015):
# of bowlers: 85
High Average: 230
High Scratch Game: 288
High Scratch Series: 787
Bowlers > 200: 9
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 230-227 = 3 pins

VoB (2015):
# of bowlers: 155
High Average: 211
High Scratch Game: 278
High Scratch Series: 754
Bowlers > 200: 4
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 211-202 = 9 pins

54V (15/16):
# of bowlers: 145
High Average: 228
High Scratch Game: 300 (x5)
High Scratch Series: 788
Bowlers > 200: 18
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 228-224 = 4 pins

TP (15/16):
# of bowlers: 87
High Average: 210
High Scratch Game: 289
High Scratch Series: 780
Bowlers > 200: 6
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 210-202 = 8 pins

PT (2016):
# of bowlers: 128
High Average: 216
High Scratch Game: 289
High Scratch Series: 748
Bowlers > 200: 7
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 216-212 = 4 pins

VP (2016):
# of bowlers: 116
High Average: 211
High Scratch Game: 300 (x1)
High Scratch Series: 773
Bowlers > 200: 6
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 211-207 = 4 pins

PT (16/17):
# of bowlers: 128
High Average: 210
High Scratch Game: 297
High Scratch Series: 767
Bowlers > 200: 3
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 210-202 = 8 pins

VoB (16/17):
# of bowlers: 160
High Average: 223
High Scratch Game: 300 (x2)
High Scratch Series: 758
Bowlers > 200: 8
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 223-215 = 8 pins

So, if you look at that data...from 3 different centers, over about 8 seasons...in the most competitive leagues in those centers:

1) Only ONCE...in a center that was far easier (in terms of conditions) than the other two centers...was there a bowler that averaged 230. That bowler...has never averaged over 209 at any other center...and all 4 of his perfect games have come AT that center.

2) While I've seen about 8 perfect games...5 of those occurred in the "easier" center...and only a few occurred at the other centers. Even in this day and age of modern equipment and blocked patterns...perfect games and 800 series are (or should be) rather rare....not a nightly event on multiple lanes.

3) In these leagues...LARGE leagues...there were generally 3-8 bowlers > 200 average. You mentioned 7-8 bowlers over 230! Even in the "easy" center...where we had 18 bowlers > 200...NOBODY averaged 230. A bowler that can average > 225 on a "non-easy"/average THS...SHOULD be testing themselves at AT LEAST the PBA Regional level...at LEAST. Professional, PBA bowlers tend to average > 225 on a THS.

4) To answer your question....Yes. A 17-pin margin is fairly 'high' given the data I've presented above. It's not 'extreme'...I mean, 8-10 is certainly possible. But "17"...thats really high. Usually, I'd only expect to see that if a high-level (college player, former professional, pro shop owner, former youth star, etc....) player joins a league in a center they have a TON of experience with.

So, my POINT in all that...is that the response you got was valid...because the data you provided is well, well, well outside the norm. IF...we assume the lanes/conditions are NOT easy...then you've essentially found an enclave of some of the best bowlers in the entire World....all bowling in the same league. Is it possible? Maybe...if it's a high $$$ scratch league where the best bowlers in the entire state/region meet up to compete...sure. But other than that...it's highly suspect, and that's why you got the more 'jaded' reaction.

I don't know your situation nor opportunities, but I'd suggest trying another center...maybe just do an additional league somewhere else...just to try and get a feel for some other conditions/centers in your area. I learned my lesson the hard way...bowling in a center where I was a 170s bowler suddenly averaging 190-192...now I have to live with that average on my record for another season or two. By the time it comes off my "previous 3 seasons"...I'm going to averaging almost 189-194...so it won't matter. But it DID hurt me in tournaments. I could have WON the OCUSBC BVL...had I not had to enter the Classic division.

Everybody likes to strike and have a high average...but, unfortunately, given the state of the game of bowling and the impossible task of the USBC actually enforcing any type of consistency in lane conditions; we have these type of problems center to center. It's like steroids in baseball...it's a shame to have to put "asterisks" next to accomplishments or criticize or be skeptical of accomplishments...but until the USBC mandates a USBC Red, White, or Blue pattern for all sanctioned leagues...and actually does random compliance checks...we'll never be able to accurately judge a bowler's accomplishments...outside of the USBC Open Championships. And that's why you hear many stories of guys that average 225 in their house league...then go to the USBC Open and average 174...which usually humbles them to the point that they never venture outside their center again.

[Tony]

Pretty much mc_runner covered it with his reply, It's going to depend on the league and its makeup.

Example leagues:
A bowler who posts on another forum has high average on his league (This league wouldn't be considered highly competitive it's a little church league, Which only has 8- 4 player teams) with a 211 average. That ave. is 23 pins higher than the next highest bowler who only has a 188 average. The league overall average is 136 (154 just for the men).



On the league I bowl on, which is made up of 32 teams of 4 players with a 6 player roster (It is considered a moderately competitive league here) . We have 20 bowlers with a 200 and up average (6 with 220+ aves). The highest average is 242 (He's the PSO here and he's not a house hack.). The next highest ave. is 235 so only 7 pins difference. The league overall average is 170 (182 just for the men).

This league is 20 teams / 5 roster or 100 bowlers, quite a few are the better bowlers in the area, it's considered one of the top handicap leagues. There are several bowlers with regional, ABT, and PBA experience. We also have a Gold level coach in the area, he has helped increase averages overall, over the past couple of years. The fellow that took the highest average, is a step above, and finished in the top 5% of all bowlers at this years Masters, so he's really good.

[Tony]

Tony,
Lemme respond to your question a little differently, because I understand that you feel the responses were a bit "jaded".

4) To answer your question....Yes. A 17-pin margin is fairly 'high' given the data I've presented above. It's not 'extreme'...I mean, 8-10 is certainly possible. But "17"...thats really high. Usually, I'd only expect to see that if a high-level (college player, former professional, pro shop owner, former youth star, etc....) player joins a league in a center they have a TON of experience with.

So, my POINT in all that...is that the response you got was valid...because the data you provided is well, well, well outside the norm. IF...we assume the lanes/conditions are NOT easy...then you've essentially found an enclave of some of the best bowlers in the entire World....all bowling in the same league. Is it possible? Maybe...if it's a high $$$ scratch league where the best bowlers in the entire state/region meet up to compete...sure. But other than that...it's highly suspect, and that's why you got the more 'jaded' reaction.

I don't know your situation nor opportunities, but I'd suggest trying another center...maybe just do an additional league somewhere else...just to try and get a feel for some other conditions/centers in your area.

I can see that your example of leagues, average, and differential support an answer to the question of Yes, that's a larger spread than most leagues.
However asserting that because there are some bowlers in the league with higher averages than your leagues, that the lanes are "easy" is not supported by any of the evidence you presented, nor was it even part of the question.
You don't know where or who I'm bowling with, are there differences in the shot on different lanes, sure, the question didn't inquire about that.
FYI I did state one of my teammates was just in Vegas shooting for the USBC open, he shot exactly 20 pins OVER his house average while in Vegas, so does that mean the lanes there are way easier than back home .....well I just presented more evidence that they are than you presented for the opposite point. I'm not saying they are but hopefully you see the point.

I've bowled at quite a few other area lanes and to tell the truth there are a couple of places where I score better than where I'm bowling now, but I'm not an ultra high avg bowler and I'd rather bowl with my buddies so that's why I bowl at that place.
A number of the other guys bowl at other local lanes and their averages vary a little from place to place, I'll use one particular guy who bowls all over including other cities and I can honestly say there are a couple places he bowls better and a few he bowls worse, his average at the place I bowl is about 10 below his highest avg and 6 pins above his lowest.

Then jaded answer was from fordman, that didn't respond to the question at all, and asked for the league sheet, was off the subject, uncalled for, and derogatory. "where is this great place at"


I understand you followed that invalid and useless response. Let him prove who he is on his own.

[Aslan]

Tony-

One additional point I forgot to make:

I bowl in the Orange County USBC. It is a large association, in one of the larger metropolitan areas of Southern California. There are 11 centers, roughly 100-150 sanctioned leagues, and nearly 6,000 bowlers. I would say, in terms of "size", it would rival any USBC with the exception of maybe New York or Chicago....or Detroit...maybe St. Louis.

Last year, in the OCUSBC yearbook...there were TEN (10) bowlers that had averages of 230 or higher. Ten out of nearly 6,000. And, 6 of those 10 bowlers were PBA regional pros...not sure about the other 4.

Again, not trying beat the horse to death...I just wanted you to understand "why" you got the reaction you got. It would be the same reaction someone would get if they said they were in a golf league and each outing there are 3 hole-in-ones and 3/4 of the golfers are scratch -10, and at least half can hit 450 yard drives.

And, I agree with you...it's "possible" that the lanes aren't easy and it's just a high concentration of talent. Maybe it's in a rural area and there are a lot of colleges nearby with strong college programs and the college kids bowl in the leagues. Maybe it's a rural area where there just aren't enough centers to "spread around" the talent. I can't say for certain because you don't list a hometown/location and I've never bowled (I don't think) at the center you bowl at. I just wanted you to understand "why" the reaction was...maybe not what you hoped/expected.

Gotta go. I wish I could say I was off to bowl a 230+ average and an 800-series...but....I'll probably just average in the 180s and be pissed about it....cuz thats how I roll.

[Tony]

Tony-

One additional point I forgot to make:

I bowl in the Orange County USBC. It is a large association, in one of the larger metropolitan areas of Southern California. There are 11 centers, roughly 100-150 sanctioned leagues, and nearly 6,000 bowlers. I would say, in terms of "size", it would rival any USBC with the exception of maybe New York or Chicago....or Detroit...maybe St. Louis.

Last year, in the OCUSBC yearbook...there were TEN (10) bowlers that had averages of 230 or higher. Ten out of nearly 6,000. And, 6 of those 10 bowlers were PBA regional pros...not sure about the other 4.

Again, not trying beat the horse to death...I just wanted you to understand "why" you got the reaction you got. It would be the same reaction someone would get if they said they were in a golf league and each outing there are 3 hole-in-ones and 3/4 of the golfers are scratch -10, and at least half can hit 450 yard drives.

And, I agree with you...it's "possible" that the lanes aren't easy and it's just a high concentration of talent. Maybe it's in a rural area and there are a lot of colleges nearby with strong college programs and the college kids bowl in the leagues. Maybe it's a rural area where there just aren't enough centers to "spread around" the talent. I can't say for certain because you don't list a hometown/location and I've never bowled (I don't think) at the center you bowl at. I just wanted you to understand "why" the reaction was...maybe not what you hoped/expected.

Gotta go. I wish I could say I was off to bowl a 230+ average and an 800-series...but....I'll probably just average in the 180s and be pissed about it....cuz thats how I roll.

You made it into something else, it was a question about the margin between the top average bowler and the second place guy.

[fordman1]

First I had no intention of insulting you or your league. I said that the guy was a really good bowler. No matter what you think it does sound like it is easier than a lot of houses. Good bowlers can make a house look easy. I was curious to see your sheet nothing more.

I had a bowler who only bowled as a 6th man this year and he was averaging 256 after 15 games with 3 300's and a 848. He is down to 242 now after 24 games which is still 12 higher than the next bowler. He made our house look easy and still does.

I don't know how to put the tone of my voice in my post. I don't tweet, text or even own a cell phone. No social media except this. Is that paranoia?

[Aslan]

And I only added the details I did because I was trying to illustrate "why" Tony got the reaction he did. It wasn't a bunch of guys seeing the scores and ganging up on him because they're jealous or 'haters'. It's just that those scores...unless it's a very special situation...there's really no other conclusion that can be drawn. I listed my own league statistics, dating back 3-4 years....just to help illustrate the point. And I even showed the Orange County statistics...only 10 bowlers out of nearly 6,000 average 230+...and more than half of the 230+ bowlers are professionals.

I prefer to argue based on 'facts' and statistics. It's not 'personal'...I like Tony. And Tony is certainly NOT alone. There are many, many bowlers out there....even in the leagues at the 'easy' center I used to bowl at...who have an "inaccurate" view. I don't mean that in an insulting way, by any means. If I only ever bowled at one center...and 10 people had 225+ averages...and there was a 300-game a night...I'd have the same inaccurate view. And if I got on BB.com and everyone started 'hating'...I'd be just as annoyed as he was/is.

The "trick" is...how do you respond in a way that:
1) Answers the question he originally asked.
2) Illustrates that his view IS, in fact, inaccurate.

I know Tony doesn't like the answer he was given...but there is no other conclusion I can draw based on the data I've seen. Bowl1820 probably gave the best answer...because he simply answered the question and avoided the "rather curious" supporting comments. And Bowl1820's answer was correct...a smaller 'fun' league or church league....maybe one guy (or gal) joins that is really, really good...then yes. Otherwise, very uncommon...especially in Tony's example where there are multiple talented bowlers.

This same 'discussion' used to come up all the time when we'd have folks compare themselves to professional bowlers....like when Daugherty rolled a 100-game. Some bowlers thought, "Hey, I average 210...I'm better than most of those pros." Then we had many conversations and discussions about how 'easy' a THS is compared to sport conditions. To high-average, house bowlers...they don't like to admit that their '210' is essentially meaningless. But, when they join a sport shot league or roll in the USBC Open...they barely shoot a 510 series...and for most of them...thats the last time they venture outside their center.

I'm 'rare' (the nice way of saying the many alternatives) in that if I bowl on 'easy' conditions...I get frustrated and try to find harder conditions. I don't see the value in hitting 75 home runs on steroids...whether I get caught or not. At the end of the day...if I ever want to get to the 'next level' in bowling...I have to be able to bowl on harder conditions, varying conditions, and sport conditions. I take lessons twice a month...and while alot of the lessons focus on physical game improvement...alot of the lessons focus on adjustments and how/when/why to make those adjustments. There are alot of bowlers I face, in league and/or tournaments, that are better and more experienced than I am. But, as lanes transition or if we bowl at different houses/centers or in Vegas...I end up having an advantage...because I know where I need to move, adjustments I need to make, etc... It's not 'enough' to be the 'best' when facing bowlers that have decades more experience than I do...but it at least evens the odds to some extent and gives me a 'chance'. Whether this thread, or other threads, I have consistently tried to encourage all bowlers to improve their game, gain knowledge, challenge their beliefs, and push themselves. My posts here are consistent with that philosophy.

[Tony]

First I had no intention of insulting you or your league. I said that the guy was a really good bowler. No matter what you think it does sound like it is easier than a lot of houses. Good bowlers can make a house look easy. I was curious to see your sheet nothing more.

I had a bowler who only bowled as a 6th man this year and he was averaging 256 after 15 games with 3 300's and a 848. He is down to 242 now after 24 games which is still 12 higher than the next bowler. He made our house look easy and still does.

I don't know how to put the tone of my voice in my post. I don't tweet, text or even own a cell phone. No social media except this. Is that paranoia?

OK, no problem, in the future if / when you see someone has taken what you said in a different way than you intended you might want to jump back in a little sooner or even anticipate the potential reaction and include a caveat phrase in the original post. ( easier said than done) Some of the guys here are fairly good at adding them because they know they are breaching a questionable subject or situation... See Aslan's posts...
I agree some houses, and lanes score better / are easier to score on than others, the high average guy makes a lot of places and lanes look like that, his average is pretty similar more or less on all the local house shots, there are about a dozen centers in the area. Taking him out of the mix the house is pretty close to the rest of the other big six centers in the area, it's actually not even the highest scoring but in the middle.
Keep in mind this fellow isn't your average house bowler, he bowls in PBA events, and does quite well, last I looked he was in the top 50 money earnings for 2017, of course that will vary depending on the number of events he can compete in.
I won't post a sheet with people's names on it, I tried to post a snip file showing a few of the teams with stats and scores only, but for some reason the system won't allow me to upload it.

[Tony]

And I only added the details I did because I was trying to illustrate "why" Tony got the reaction he did. It wasn't a bunch of guys seeing the scores and ganging up on him because they're jealous or 'haters'. It's just that those scores...unless it's a very special situation...there's really no other conclusion that can be drawn. I listed my own league statistics, dating back 3-4 years....just to help illustrate the point. And I even showed the Orange County statistics...only 10 bowlers out of nearly 6,000 average 230+...and more than half of the 230+ bowlers are professionals.

I prefer to argue based on 'facts' and statistics. It's not 'personal'...I like Tony. And Tony is certainly NOT alone. There are many, many bowlers out there....even in the leagues at the 'easy' center I used to bowl at...who have an "inaccurate" view. I don't mean that in an insulting way, by any means. If I only ever bowled at one center...and 10 people had 225+ averages...and there was a 300-game a night...I'd have the same inaccurate view. And if I got on BB.com and everyone started 'hating'...I'd be just as annoyed as he was/is.

The "trick" is...how do you respond in a way that:
1) Answers the question he originally asked.
2) Illustrates that his view IS, in fact, inaccurate.

I know Tony doesn't like the answer he was given...but there is no other conclusion I can draw based on the data I've seen. Bowl1820 probably gave the best answer...because he simply answered the question and avoided the "rather curious" supporting comments. And Bowl1820's answer was correct...a smaller 'fun' league or church league....maybe one guy (or gal) joins that is really, really good...then yes. Otherwise, very uncommon...especially in Tony's example where there are multiple talented bowlers.

This same 'discussion' used to come up all the time when we'd have folks compare themselves to professional bowlers....like when Daugherty rolled a 100-game. Some bowlers thought, "Hey, I average 210...I'm better than most of those pros." Then we had many conversations and discussions about how 'easy' a THS is compared to sport conditions. To high-average, house bowlers...they don't like to admit that their '210' is essentially meaningless. But, when they join a sport shot league or roll in the USBC Open...they barely shoot a 510 series...and for most of them...thats the last time they venture outside their center.

I'm 'rare' (the nice way of saying the many alternatives) in that if I bowl on 'easy' conditions...I get frustrated and try to find harder conditions. I don't see the value in hitting 75 home runs on steroids...whether I get caught or not. At the end of the day...if I ever want to get to the 'next level' in bowling...I have to be able to bowl on harder conditions, varying conditions, and sport conditions. I take lessons twice a month...and while alot of the lessons focus on physical game improvement...alot of the lessons focus on adjustments and how/when/why to make those adjustments. There are alot of bowlers I face, in league and/or tournaments, that are better and more experienced than I am. But, as lanes transition or if we bowl at different houses/centers or in Vegas...I end up having an advantage...because I know where I need to move, adjustments I need to make, etc... It's not 'enough' to be the 'best' when facing bowlers that have decades more experience than I do...but it at least evens the odds to some extent and gives me a 'chance'. Whether this thread, or other threads, I have consistently tried to encourage all bowlers to improve their game, gain knowledge, challenge their beliefs, and push themselves. My posts here are consistent with that philosophy.

I understand your viewpoint, and I accept that some places are harder or easier to play, I'm not saying that the place I play is the hardest shot ever, but I took a few minutes and looked at several of the bowlers who hold these higher averages.\\

Yes, I also see your point toward having a uniform standard that can be applied nation wide to be able to realistically compare scores across the country and make it more reasonable to handle tournaments .

They bowl at a number of different centers and have some pretty high averages in those centers also, they collectively hold a number of NCAA, Local, State and Regional Titles, several are USBC HOF members, so while they might not average the exact same amount at the center you play at I have no problem thinking most of them would hold their own with higher scoring guys in the league, and conversely I don't see anyone averaging 200 elsewhere that would walk in here and magically average 230.

[Aslan]

They bowl at a number of different centers and have some pretty high averages in those centers also, they collectively hold a number of NCAA, Local, State and Regional Titles, several are USBC HOF members, so while they might not average the exact same amount at the center you play at I have no problem thinking most of them would hold their own with higher scoring guys in the league, and conversely I don't see anyone averaging 200 elsewhere that would walk in here and magically average 230.

See...THATs the exception I mentioned.

From a data/statistics standpoint...my analysis is hard to argue with.

HOWEVER...like I said when I listed 'possible exceptions'...if this is a rural center or a center close to colleges with advanced bowling programs....then, it makes more sense. Still seems "questionable"...but that explanation makes sense. It also makes sense that these guys are PBA regional guys...like I said...if you're averaging over 225 on a THS...then you should be taking your shots at that 'next level'.

[Amyers]

A lot of this conversation has to do with locality. Here if its a big money league people will drive to them it's not uncommon for a big money league to have 8-10 guys averaging well on the plus side of 220 does that mean we have a huge number of high caliber bowlers and huge centers? No. I bowled a league at a 12 lane house that had 15 bowlers who averaged 220+. The difference is here for a high money league people will drive 90 miles to bowl in that league so they pull from all over the southern part of the state.

Some of this does depend on house too though. My big money leagues for the most part with exceptions feature the same bowlers. At house A after looking at the sheets there are 3 players averaging 230+ and 11 people averaging 220+ so in all 14 players over 220+. House B has Zero players over 230+ and 6 over 220+. Leagues are of similar size and have a lot of the same players but not entirely the difference in my opinion House A has synthetics and a new oil machine House B is Wood with an oil machine that looks like something out of a 70's sci-fi show.

[Aslan]

...The difference is here for a high money league people will drive 90 miles to bowl in that league so they pull from all over the southern part of the state.


...House A has synthetics and a new oil machine House B is Wood...

Exactly correct.

As I explained in my responses...there are only FOUR possible reasons that someone might have a high concentration of high average bowlers and a lot of honor scores....that DOESN'T mean the center is EASY:
1) It's a high $$$ league (as Amyers described above). We have a Budweiser league at one of the southern LA centers...where I think first place gets $12,000 or something like that. It's a scratch league, it's been around FOREVER, and it attracts a ton of regional PBA guys, retired PBA national guys and gals, former college bowlers, and the higher-level amateurs.

2) It's a "wood house" and there are a ton of guys that have it "figured out".
Wood houses can cut both ways. Like Amyers mentioned...they can be GREATLY frustrating to most high level bowlers that don't have the ultra-weak equipment necessary to compete on those rather "antique" conditions. BUT...I used to bowl at a wood house...and there were a handful of guys that had bowled there for over a decade, using older equipment, and just let that ball go up the track like they were throwing it down a water slide...you almost "couldn't miss" if you could consistently hit the 8-11 boards at the arrows and had some speed/loft.

3) It's near a college or group of colleges that have a well-developed bowling program.
For example, if you're in Kansas...and you bowl at a center where bowlers from Wichita State bowl league...and there's another private college nearby...also with a competitive bowling team...that's a LOT of talent concentrated in one area. If you add in some high-level pros and PBA regional guys...it's a possibility.

4) Rural Areas
Some areas of the country only have a couple centers within 45 minutes of a bowler. These centers can be very small...which means ALL of the talented bowlers in that area MUST bowl at one center...or drive an hour and a half to a different center.

I did some initial research on the topic...both of Tony's area and of MY area...and here's a snippet of how the centers in Orange County look (summary at the end):

Method(s):
Look at honor scores rolled in 2016 and number of leagues at the center. I thus was able to get a "800 series/league" and "300-game/league" value. It's important to factor in the # of leagues (as you'll see), because some of these centers are QUITE large...and have a great many more leagues than other centers.

"Easy OCUSBC Centers"

10) Westminster Lanes
Location: Westminster, CA
Lanes: 40
Leagues: 29
800 Series/League/Year: 0.759
300 Games/League/Year: 1.655

I'd like to add more details on this center (and welcome those who have bowled there to chime in), but it's one of the rare OC centers I've never bowled at. Not "intentionally"...just never had a reason to.

"Normal/Average OCUSBC Centers"

9) La Habra 300
Location: La Habra, CA
Lanes: 32
Leagues: 17
800 Series/League/Year: 0.294
300 Games/League/Year: 0.765
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 162 (32)

I'm unsure about this one's ranking...ONLY because I HAVE bowled at this center and I think there are some other factors that weigh in. This center is 'barely' in Orange County....it's closer to LA. So, the people from this area have to drive a 'little' further to get to another center. AND, this center does have a league that features some pretty high average bowlers, including Glenn Allison and some regional pros. So, I'd put an (*) next to this one.

8) AMF Carter Bowl
Location: Fullerton, CA
Lanes: 40
Leagues: 24
800 Series/League/Year: 0.167
300 Games/League/Year: 0.958
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 188 (204)

This is the "easy" center I listed in my personal results earlier in the thread. I averaged in the 190s at this center...while averaging in the high 170s/low 180s at other centers. This center has a very nice "bounce area" at the breakpoint...a LOT of 300 games at this center. Not as many 800 series though...just because it's an older center and the lanes WILL break down during league play. Despite it being near Cal State Fullerton, I wouldn't say this center attracts a lot of high level talent. This is also the center I shot my only 300-game (in practice).

7) Irvine Lanes
Location: Irvine, CA
Lanes: 40
Leagues: 11
800 Series/League/Year: 0.1818
300 Games/League/Year: 0.727
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 155 (9)

I'd have personally ranked this one "harder"...only because it plays more like a "heavy-oil" house...which is rare in Orange County. It's a very well-kept center...and the lanes don't transition as much as they do elsewhere. It's a more "predictable" shot night-to-night. Maybe that's why it lends itself to slightly more honor scores.

6) Saddleback Lanes
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Lanes: 32
Leagues: 14
800 Series/League/Year: 0.2143
300 Games/League/Year: 0.4286

Also a rare house I've never bowled at. It's on the other side of Orange County, towards San Diego. In past years, it's been one of the "higher average" houses in OC. I've never bowled there...so I can't offer much more insight than that.

5) Forest Lanes
Location: Lake Forest, CA
Lanes: 40
Leagues: 21
800 Series/League/Year: 0.095
300 Games/League/Year: 0.619
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 189 (16)

I've found these lanes to be rather "easy". A lot of dry on the outside and they don't transition too quickly.

"Harder/More Difficult OC Centers"

4) Concourse Bowling Center
Location: Anaheim Hills, CA
Lanes: 40
Leagues: 14
800 Series/Year/League: 0.07143
300 Games/Year/League: 0.357
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 169 (975)

This center was really easy when they had wood lanes. Take any weaker, older ball...throw it up the track...it was like a heat-seeking missile to the pocket. But...as MWhite found out when I defeated him (scratch) on these lanes way back when...the lanes rewarded lower-rev, high-speed, high-loft bowlers...and absolutely punished higher rev/lower speed/ non-lofting bowlers. Mike's rev rate and non-lofting made beating me on those wood lanes almost impossible.

Then...they switched to synthetics. And that changed the equation a bit. The center does a great job with leagues...but it's not "league friendly". They do a TON of business with local college kids and wealthy high school kids in the affluent areas nearby...a lot of corporate bowling parties...and leagues seem to be a bit of an "annoyance" to their owner. SO...sometimes they oil a little...sometimes they don't. Most of the time they oil before league play...sometimes they don't. Sometimes they let open bowlers bowl on the lanes just before league play...and they've even canceled some leagues on busier nights and limited the number of teams on other nights because they were turning away too many open bowlers. So, trying to bowl well at this center is "hit or miss"...and it seems they have applied a 32ft (or less) pattern...lower volume...just about any modern ball will roll out midway to 3/4 down the lane. I've been reduced to throwing a Track 300A or Hammer Big Blue Spare ball. Only other option is to drastically change my approach...add speed...add loft...all things that might ruin the progress I've made in my physical game.

3) Fountain Bowl
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Lanes: 60
Leagues: 43
800 Series/League/Year: 0.070
300 Games/League/Year: 0.0419
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 180 (35)

This one surprises me because I've always found this house rather "easy". I think it plays alot like Forest Lanes. This is also a fairly popular house with higher average. former regional pros, etc... bowlers. But, this is also where the "math" is a factor. This is a huge center, a PBA/PBA50/PWBA tour stop, and has over 40 leagues. So, while there are certainly going to be a fair share of higher averages...there is going to be a "mix".

2) Linbrook Bowling Center
Location: Anaheim, CA
Lanes: 40
Leagues: 39
800 Series/League/Year: 0.0513
300 Games/League/Year: 0.231
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 180 (528)

This is a challenging center because it dates back to the late 1950s. The pattern is somewhat stable, but it's a split house...so one side plays differently than the other. However, the lanes transition quickly...which doesn't lend itself well to consistent scoring nor honor scores...so it's no real surprise it would have one of the lowest honor scores/league. This center does a weekly scratch trios league with some of the area's top bowlers...and only 1/4 of the league averages 200 or higher...the highest average is 213. It's not uncommon for bowlers in this center, that average in the 195-215 range, for them to average 205-230 in other houses.

1) AMF Valley View Lanes
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Lanes: 32
Leagues: 11
800 Series: 0
300 Games/League/Year: 0.273

Like Westminster and Saddleback, I've never bowled this center. It's a Bowlmor/AMF center, so I'm no hurry to bowl there. In reality, I'd probably give this one an (*) as well...it could easily be #2...because if there was 1 800 series bowled there in 2016...it would greatly change the equation...simply because it only has 11 leagues.

Summary in next post (length restrictions).

[Aslan]

Summary:
I don't have the dilemmas of #1, #2, #3, or #4 listed above. The main difference, using honor score data, between the houses/centers seems to point to Westminster Lanes being clearly an "easy" house. But, I've never bowled there myself so I can only go by extrapolative data. The data is somewhat "questionable" for a couple reasons:

1) La Habra 300 and Irvine Lanes made the list of "easier" lanes...and that has not been my experience. I've bowled tournaments at those houses and would MUCH rather bowl at Forest Lanes or Fountain Bowl. La Habra 300 also has a little bit of the "rural" and "consolidated talent" thing going for it...on a lesser scale of course...but it's an (*).

2) I had to factor in the # of lanes...but even doing so...honor scores are few and far between compared to using averages. That makes statistical analysis and determining statistical significance more difficult. I can be fairly certain that Westminster Lanes are, on average, "easier". And, given the number of leagues, I can be fairly certain that Fountain Bowl is a little harder and Linbrook a good deal harder. But centers like Concourse and Valley View...harder to use the statistics...not enough leagues.

I'm also 'tinkering' with using average data. I've started compilation efforts...which is easy given that OCUSBC does a great job with publishing statistics...but it'll take some time to compile, organize, and analyze. Why the effort? I'm good with numbers and the topic interests me. I'd very much like to see bowling averages and honor scores "mean" something...and currently they are very 'suspect'.

As to Tony's center...it's harder to analyze that data. It is a center that has higher averages than other centers in the area...it's not a "rural" situation, the league isn't an "all-star" type league, it's not a wood house (as far as I know)...so, my instinct is the averages are a bit inflated. However, as Tony mentioned...it's a center with some famous coaches in and around it...and I could see that having a legitimate impact.

[NewToBowling]

Woah, that's a lot of research. Looks like a senior thesis

[Timmyb]

Looking at my league (a 965 scratch), I was 4th highest with a 215. High was a 227. In order, 227, 224, 216, 215, 214, 212, and then 196. So, some disparity between 6th and 7th. Works that way in a lot of leagues, scratch or handicap. I was in one handicap league that I was 15 pins over the 2nd place guy.

[Aslan]

Woah, that's a lot of research. Looks like a senior thesis
Wait till you see the second round...


Looking at my league (a 965 scratch), I was 4th highest with a 215. High was a 227. In order, 227, 224, 216, 215, 214, 212, and then 196. So, some disparity between 6th and 7th. Works that way in a lot of leagues, scratch or handicap. I was in one handicap league that I was 15 pins over the 2nd place guy.
I would expect higher averages in a scratch league because you're essentially in the "#1" example below...a scratch league attracts the "best of the best". I know more than one PBA or former PBA bowler...and while they don't currently bowl in any leagues...when they did last, it was only scratch leagues...and if they bowl in tournaments (other than PBA), those are almost always scratch tournaments.

The scratch league I mentioned is in a "more difficult" house...and it's a trios league that is fairly small in size...but about 30% of the participants average > 200. Most handicap leagues in this area, < 10% of the handicap league averages 200 or higher. In this particular league, the high averages are: 224, 212, 212, 211, 209, 206, 206, 203, 202, 201, 201, 201, 201, 200.