The Joys of Pre-Bowling a 300

[rnningfool]

2 of the bowlers on my 4 person team are going to a satyr dinner next Monday night and will miss our league night. We have 1 sub who I wanted to roll in one of their places, but deciding which one gets to pre-bowl would be pulling teeth, so I said they should both go ahead.

I can't stand pre-bowling. It's an unfair circumstance that doesn't replicate league play, shenanigans can occur (read on), and therefore shouldn't be allowed. That being said, I went to watch my team roll. One of our guys is a 174 avg and the other a 177. They started off game 1 with a 215 and 224. The 2nd game brought a 192 and 245. I'll note that in 6th frame our bowler rolled a 9, the 10 pin moved but didn't fall, and the sweep removed it and scoring counted it as an X. My bowler wanted to keep the score. I made him mark it 9 /, but he didn't shoot the 10 pin. The 3rd game must have been pulling my worst fears together in awesome power because our guy rolled his first perfect game ever, concluding a 769 series. The other guy rolled a 170 for a 577 series.

The guy who rolled a 769 highest series ever prior to this in league play was 663. In 26 weeks of stats, he has 2 total 600 series. This isn't in my imagination that pre-bowling isn't fair. I'm completely aware that there aren't great alternatives (aside from not allowing it and forcing subs or absentee scores) but am I zany for feeling this strongly against it? Now myself and the other bowler have to go on Monday and sit there while our pre-bowled bowlers just rolled 55 & 238 pins higher than their series averages. We are going to win blindfolded and the other team shouldn't even bother showing up.

To complete this anti pre-bowling post, I'm going to underline some reasons why pre-bowling should be outlawed. Our one bowler rolls a straight ball up the middle and the 300 bowler rolled the same line over and over again that he created which won't occur in league play. There's no pressure. There's a flow of continuous bowling. The series isn't even legitimate because he flat out cheated which I can only imagine how often occurs during pre-bowling (the 300 was legit).

Am I being a cantankerous old man or is this opinion generally accepted among bowlers?

[bowl1820]

2 of the bowlers on my 4 person team are going to a satyr dinner next Monday night and will miss our league night.

It's a "Seder" dinner not satyr.

For those that don't know a Seder dinner marks the beginning of the Jewish holiday of Passover.


I can't stand pre-bowling. It's an unfair circumstance that doesn't replicate league play, shenanigans can occur (read on), and therefore shouldn't be allowed.

I'll note that in 6th frame our bowler rolled a 9, the 10 pin moved but didn't fall, and the sweep removed it and scoring counted it as an X. My bowler wanted to keep the score. I made him mark it 9 /, but he didn't shoot the 10 pin.

Given your feelings about pre bowling, why did you cheat right there then?

Marking the frame as a strike or a spare would be against the rules.
See Usbc Rule 6b illegal pinfall

Since the sweeper knocked the 10 pin down, the 10 pin should have been respotted and the player then attempt to pick it up.


The series isn't even legitimate because he flat out cheated which I can only imagine how often occurs during pre-bowling

"He" cheated? You can't lay it all on him!

By not respotting the pin and having him shoot the spare and telling him to mark the frame as a spare ("I" made him mark it 9/), You committed the vary shenanigans (cheating) you were worried about happening yourself!

[Tony]

I and most of the bowlers I know also hate pre-bowling , on my wed team we always have subs, on the Fri AM we also use subs but since they are harder to find we have pre-bowled, last time was a season ago......

It just isn't good from the standpoint that no one else is using the pair changing the line, not to mention any do-overs, cheating score corrections, or pins that get knocked down by the sweep.....and so on
You probably should have insisted he call into the counter and reset the pin to shoot at it.......

[bowl1820]

As to pre-bowling, Yes a lot of bowler's feel the same way you do. For the same reason's, the different conditions, pace of bowling and the possibility of cheating.

In regards to the different conditions, yes sometimes it can be beneficial. It's a different pattern, it might already be broke down or it doesn't breakdown as fast because there fewer bowlers, They control the pace, going fast or slow as need, All of which could help a bowler.

But those exact same thing's can be detrimental to a different bowler. the patterns different or the lanes are all broke down or not breaking down for them. They can't control their pace, they just get up bowl as fast as they can (Like a poster in another forum, he was open bowling and complaining about how bad he shot. he posted a picture of a print out of his games and if you looked it had the times he bowled each game, he bowled each game in less than 10 mins). or they sit around drinking and gabbing half the morning or afternoon till they get done a few hours later.


As for cheating, yes it's a possibility.

It use to be if you pre or post bowled a league rep. was supposed to be present to observe. But with the changing times and work schedules this has been dropped from most leagues.

The use of electronic scoring kind of helps, Because it will show if a score was changed manually. Though it wouldn't show if the machine made a mistake like giving you a strike when you didn't, that's when the personal integrity of the player comes into play. (and a lot people anymore assume everyone except themselves cheat.)

One thing about pre/post bowling, usually it only gets brought up when a team loses to someone who did it. If the player bowled good they either had super easy conditions or they cheated. The thought that maybe they just happened to bowl good that day is far down the list.

Plus no one thinks or remembers about the bad pre/post bowled games that players bowled.

[foreverincamo]

I've always said get a sub or take pins off your average. No pre-bowling.

[got_a_300]

On our Thursday night league no individual is allowed to pre bowl
it has to be the whole team pre bowling or nothing and at least
one member from the opposing team has to be there to watch to
make sure it is on the up and up.

If it is just one or two persons that isn't going to be there then
you either have to get subs or just use their averages minus the
10 pins.

[Aslan]

Not only impressed with Bowl1820's knowledge of all things bowling....but also all things Jewish. Well played.

I agree and have had similar experiences with both pre and post/make-up bowling.

In the house I bowl at most frequently...it's a divided center. Bowl 1820 may know if it has a more specific name....but essentially it's a center with lanes on both sides of the center. Most centers have all the lanes on one side, in a row...1-6, 1-12, 1-24, 1-30, 1-40, 1-48, 1-60. A "divided center" has 1-12 or 1-20 on one side...then 13-24 or 21-40 on the other side. The desk, bar, pro shops, snack bars, etc... are in the middle of the center. You'll read RobM mention this from time to time because Vegas has a few centers that are laid out this way. It's fairly "rare" from what I've found...but a few are still around.

Anyways, the downside to centers like these...is that the "high side" and "low side" (as they are often referred to) often times play differently. In Vegas, Rob was telling me how one of the centers...the lanes on one side play more "uphill" and the lanes on the other side play more "downhill". At my center, the lanes on the "low side" are used more often and play more predictably. Lanes with 20 or less teams area almost always assigned the low side...so league bowlers are "used to" these lanes. The "high side" is used for larger leagues...but also for a great deal of open bowling. The high side is less predictable...lower scoring...and often times not oiled the same as the center has a different oil machine for the high side and low side.

Soooo....I've actually seen teams decide to pre-bowl or make-up bowl to avoid bowling on the high side. If it was a league where you only bowled the high side a few times a season...some of the more competitive teams would simply skip those games and either pre-bowl or make-up bowl on the low side.

And like rnfool mentioned (and others)...it's ripe for cheating. I don't blame rnfool for not calling out his teammate regarding the 10-pin...nobody wants to be the "sour puss". Last week a low average opponent had a 4-pin fall over when the pin setter reset the 4-5-7 and before I could have the desk reset the pins...he shot at the 5-7. Yesterday night, a low average bowler on the team I was subbing for got a strike when the pin setter set up a rack that was missing the 10-pin. Nobody made her shoot it again. When you have a bowler with a 95 average...and the game isn't very close...sometimes you just let it go.

[fordman1]

How about the fact of one of the better bowlers throwing a few key shots for one of the weaker bowlers? Nothing would show up as changed. Even a completely different bowler.

We changed our rules to only2 of the 5 regular bowers had to be present on league night. Most of our teams don't want to miss because there is too much money in pots to miss.

Didn't they change the rule that honor scores in pre and post bowling don't count?

The Mustair rule or what ever his name was.

[bowl1820]

Didn't they change the rule that honor scores in pre and post bowling don't count?


Yes they cannot be earned while pre or post bowling unopposed. see Chapter 3: Awards: Rule 50. Eligibility
Also see the CAQs in Chapter 4: 111a/1 and 111e/7.)

[KYDave]

Yes there are certain advantages of pre/post bowling. But I can't imagine someone doing it unsupervised.

Aslan- there are a few centers around here like that. One of them is just like you describe. the other the lanes actually face each other in the middle, so I'm told. I haven't been to that one as it is further away but I've never seen a layout like that before.

[LOUVIT]

Pre-bowling is stupid! As said it is not at all like league bowling.... different pace, oil patterns and what's up with that 10 pin and automatic spare. Good chance a 170 shooter may have missed the 10 pin. My whole reason for quitting my first league in 25 years (an afternoon senior league) was that I couldn't stand having to be there for 3 hours or so. Maybe I should have pre bowled the whole season since I average 154 on the league and like 180 when I practice.