What is Soooo Special....

[RobLV1]

... about the 2nd arrow? In my Thursday Trios League (High average senior league), we bowl two games on one pair, then move one pair to the right and bowl two more games against the same team. I always make it a habit to watch what's going on on the pair to our right (though it seems that I'm the only one who does). So today, we were following five bowlers (one team had one player absent). All five average between 195 and 215. Four of the bowlers were playing the second arrow. None of them were able to shoot 200. One bowler was playing the third arrow. He shot 215. Nobody moved! What is so special about the second arrow that long time bowlers are terrified of even trying to move left to find some oil?

[J Anderson]

Intermittent positive reinforcement. One of the most powerfull tools in modifying behavior, this is when an action is rewarded, not every time but just enough so that the subject will keep repeating the action. When done as an experiment the action is rewarded almost all the time at the start, but then the frequency of rewards becomes lower and more random.

So older bowlers became hooked on playing second arrow back in the day when it was a good place to play, and since it still works on occasion, especially at the start of a set, they get rewarded just enough keep the habit going.

[MICHAEL]

Rob on my seniors league, I played the second arrow the day I did my 834! I had a 234, 300, and 300! I didn't have to more one board! That was with 6 seniors bowling on the two lanes. I did stay behind the ball, rather then come up the side, thus getting it down the lane much further before it went into its hook movement. I do experiment a lot with my spinner! Different surfaces,,,, I think I have found a great formula for

MY SPEED, and Release. Every one is different. My Revs, and Speed have changed dramatically since we met in Vegas for our Showdown. That ONE lesson from you changed me in more ways then I have time to even reflect on at this time, MY WIFE says I am an EVEN better LOVER since that lesson!
We have a great oil machine here in Kansas city, NKC PRO BOWEL. ITs a legal automatic, lane changing, one pass unit. I can find out the model, I thing I did post it a few years ago. From what I understand its like an ink jet, rather then the common wicks used by most machines. Very precise exact patterns. I have found that Ball Surface that matches YOUR individual style can make a HUGE DIFFERENCE!

No two bowlers throw the ball the same! Out of box surface, MAY work for some, but by simply tailoring YOUR ball to YOUR Style can have huge benefits. So many things go into what surface,,, not only the individual bowling styles, but time of day you bowl, temperature, how long the oil is on the lanes before bowling, etc. I think what many bowers that haven't had that 800 series do wrong might just be moving too fast, just because of a bad result, which (might not have had anything to do with the oil changes, but rather a number of things related to the delivery.

When I did that 834,,, I was in the zone, 2nd arrow all the way, but my focus was unbelievable that day. I give a lot of credit to the surface I put on the ball that day before we bowled! It seemed to not eat the oil, and got through the heads like a dream 24 times in a row. The Deadly Aim works like non of my other balls, including one of my newer ones by hammer, the Scandal! Wish they still made the Deadly Aim,,, would buy a half dozen!

[mc_runner]

I did stay behind the ball, rather then come up the side, thus getting it down the lane much further before it went into its hook movement.

I'm a little confused on this... behind the ball should be an earlier roll, while more side roll would mean further skid before reading, no?

[RobLV1]

I'm a little confused on this... behind the ball should be an earlier roll, while more side roll would mean further skid before reading, no?

You are absolutely correct!

[Aslan]

... about the 2nd arrow?

1) Bowlers are the most stubborn of all athletes.
2) At some point in their bowling years, the 2nd arrow got them a high score...and trying new areas hasn't gotten them the same amount of success.
3) The current THS still favors this shot.

It sounds like the issue isn't the 2nd arrow....it's that the bowlers in question didn't make an adjustment. The winner shouldn't have been the guy playing 14...it should have been the guy playing 2nd arrow that recognized the dilemma and made a move inside.

There was an article I read a few years back about bowling coaches where it said the main determination in whether a person does what they're being taught...is whether it not it works. Coach technique, coach qualifications/reputation, etc... were all further down the list. And, with bowlers being stubborn by nature, they ain't switchin...cuz they once threw a 257 game doing it the way they usually do it.

On the flipside, the GOOD thing is that once you convince a bowler to do something...and it WORKS...bowlers will do ANYTHING if it gets them higher scores. The trick is getting them to stay with it long enough for it to start working.

[foreverincamo]

There are still many bowlers who know the 2nd arrow as "the track " area. That section of the lane would wear into an area that would carry better than anywhere else.

[RobLV1]

There are still many bowlers who know the 2nd arrow as "the track " area. That section of the lane would wear into an area that would carry better than anywhere else.

The key here are the words "would work," past tense. With reactive resin balls with dynamic cores bowling on synthetic lanes, EVERYTHING changed.... except the bowlers.

[Tony]

...and trying new areas hasn't gotten them the same amount of success.


Might be the number one reason that many bowlers still hover around the 2nd arrow.

[got_a_300]

I play the lanes based on where the shot tells me to play whether
it be the 1st board on the right side or the 39th board on the left
side and hook the whole lane.

I like to call those bowlers that only want to play one spot on the
lanes say the 2nd arrow and then refuse to try and move or refuse
to try something new I always call them a (one trick pony).

If a person wants to further their bowling skills they have to be
for one thing willing to get out of their comfort zone and as the
old saying goes trust is a must so they have to just trust in their
own ability to make the right adjustments.

[bowl1820]

Ran across this wrote by Silver Level Coach Dan Simril at Foxfire Lanes and I thought it would go good with this thread

http://foxfirelanes.com/secondarrow.htm

Ever wonder why so many bowlers aim for the second arrow?
Better yet: Ever wonder why you do?

It comes down to one thing "MARGIN FOR ERROR"

Years ago those in the bowling industry realized that there needed to be some sort of lubrication to protect the lanes from the friction of the balls. Mineral oils were soon used widely through the industry. It wasn't long after that they realized that the placement of the oil (the oil pattern, condition, or shot) could have dramatic effect on score ability.

Many proprietors put out a condition called a "Block". The block consisted of oiling heavily between the second arrows, and leaving the outside of the lanes bone dry. This pattern created an outrageously easy scoring condition for those throwing hook balls. The sanctioning bodies of bowling ABC & WIBC (then in their infancy), stepped in to regulate the lane conditions, and insure the integrity of the sport.

The "Block" was outlawed, and rules were put into place that require that there be oil from edge board to edge board for the distance that the proprietor chooses to oil (Around 40' at most centers). The rules have changed slightly over the years, but to date do not set requirements for how the pattern is applied on a lane. Oiling pattern is still left to the proprietors.

Proprietors walk a tightrope. The condition should be difficult enough that the sport isn't lost, but not so difficult that bowlers can't score, and improve. Although proprietors have independent discretion on pattern most have come to the same conclusion, a 10 to 10 crown is the pattern of choice.

A Crown features a drop from heavy oil to light oil, around the second arrow. The effect is that bowlers throwing a hook ball at the second arrow will have a "Margin for error" if the ball is slightly outside the second arrow, the increased friction allows the ball to grab, and hook back. If the ball is pulled inside, the extra oil allows the ball to slide longer, and helps the ball from crossing over.

Note: The pattern utilized at Foxfire is a Crown type pattern know as a Christmas Tree. This pattern not only tapers off (laterally) at the 10 board (or second arrow), it also diminishes toward the 39' mark.

(Note: I'm not sure when this was written, pretty sure it was before this. but in Aug. 2008 Foxfire went to the Kegel Middle Road pattern which is 39' and this may have also changed since then. ")

So, are you wondering if you should make the second arrow your new home? I can give you an unqualified NO! Oh, it is a great place to start, but as sure as you can be that you will find some variation of the Crown in nearly every center you walk in, also believe that oiling pattern can not defeat the traffic of bowling balls. Since the second arrow is so popular, and so many bowlers bowl there, the oil is taken off that part of the lane first. So either be ready to adjust, or have your complaints about the conditions ready.

To make adjustment easier, practice different marks. Shoot a game at the third arrow, the first arrow, and boards between. Then the next time you find that "your shot" has gone away, you will be comfortable making the adjustment.

On a related topic, that few are aware of (and especially for those who choose to complain rather than adjust): Several years ago a manufacturer of synthetic lanes invented a lane that didn't need oil. It had parts of the lane with higher friction coefficient in certain areas, to approximate a Crown condition With no oil, the lane condition didn't change no matter the traffic. The lane was never authorized for use, because the lack of challenge was a detriment to the sport.

See you on the lanes

Dan Simril
USA Certified Silver Level Coach

[Aslan]

That article is interesting, but really just re-states the issue.

Bowling 2nd arrow is the most commonplace...because it gives most bowlers the best liklihood to score well.

HOWEVER...bowlers need to know how to make adjustments...most of which will be movement INSIDE as the track dries up.

Where I "think" RobM and I differ in opinion...is that Rob seems to really push for bowlers to start out well inside the oil...and to always stay in that area...left of everyone else...because it is "ideal" for scoring. This article, and general knowledge of the sport for decades, is that playing the track is "ideal" for scoring. Bowling ball technology hasn't changed the track from being "ideal" (although, it has made playing 1st arrow more difficult); it has simply made STAYING in the track non-ideal.

I think most bowlers have more to gain by learning to how to adjust, where to adjust, when to adjust, etc... rather than spend time trying to figure out how to play center arrow (or wasting time trying to play the 1st arrow on a THS). Playing an inside line...is HARDER than playing the track. It requires much better accuracy and consistency...especially early on or in harder centers...where there is limited "bounce" outside. Playing 1st arrow...in my opinion...is even HARDER due to the current state of bowling ball technology. There just aren't "weak enough" balls to play out in the dry/1st arrow unless you have a good deal of loft and/or ball speed.

[RobLV1]

Playing an inside line is only harder than playing the track if you insist on looking at the lanes from side to side rather than from front to back. On a 40' pattern, there is 20' of friction past the pattern which is plenty of friction for a modern bowling ball to make it's move. The problem with playing the track is that it is very easy to find the friction too soon which results in the ball losing energy before it ever gets near the pins.

I am currently working on an article which will have photographic evidence that after a single league session, a 41' pattern is reduced to less than 35'! Stay tuned!

[Aslan]

Playing an inside line is only harder than playing the track if you insist on looking at the lanes from side to side rather than from front to back.

What I meant by that...is that the track...at least early on in a series...is very forgiving of mistakes. When you move inside...those mistakes are amplified.

So yes, the track burns up quickly...people start leaving flat 10s...maybe even coming in really light and leaving 2-pin combos and washouts. And, their pulled shots go from holding to though the nose splits.

BUT....the inside line requires more precision. A slight miss left...through the nose...a slight miss right....washout. Someone who is very precise...can probably play the inside line with great success and consistent scoring...with little interference from other bowlers. BUT...you can't "miss". 1-2 boards right or left...you're in trouble.

Although, to play Devil's advocate to myself...I usually play 9-12 on league night....and last night shot a 650+ series playing 11-16...which for ME...is borderline "inside line". And...I had some miss room to the right. The lanes were just playing drier than usual...I realized after only two frames that the Reax Pearl was too strong...so I balled down quickly rather than waiting 6-8 frames to realize it...and midway through Game 2...when the Innovate was acting "weird"...the Scandal Pearl was a perfect ball for me on the line I was on....just that little more "kick" at the end that I needed.

[RobLV1]

Actually, it's not the track that burns up, at least not at the arrows. It burns up at the end of the pattern. The problem with playing the second arrow at the beginning, is that bowlers automatically assume that as they move their feet left, they keep throwing to the same spot at the end of the pattern, at THAT'S what gets burned up.

[bowl1820]

Actually, it's not the track that burns up, at least not at the arrows. It burns up at the end of the pattern. The problem with playing the second arrow at the beginning, is that bowlers automatically assume that as they move their feet left, they keep throwing to the same spot at the end of the pattern, at THAT'S what gets burned up.


Click for El Dorado & El Diablo: Understanding Good and Bad Friction (http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/el_dorado_el_diablo_april_2013.pdf)

https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/btmcontent/uploads/2014/06/shapes-1-to-4.jpg

[RobLV1]

I'm currently working on an article tentatively titled "The Dead Zone Revisited." I will have actual photographs of the damage that happens at the end of the pattern, as well as some VERY interesting information about carry down.

[KYDave]

as well as some VERY interesting information about carry down.

I hope you can fix the carry down issue. It is bad where I bowl. I bought a Sure Lock and put it at 320 grit. Even with my speed of 20.481 at the pins and 697.32revs I can't get it to hook at all. It just slides all the way down the lane. I'm thinking about starting to lay down my ball on the approach to give me extra length and taking my ball down to 180. Maybe it just needs 71 feet to hook and the extra friction of the dry. Be sure to let me know so I can tell everyone here how to fix this epidemic of carry down.

[RobLV1]

It's not carry down that is keeping your ball from hooking. It's the lack of oil from all of the super absorbent balls sucking it up with each pass down the lane. By putting more surface on the ball, you are just exacerbating the problem. You need less surface, not more. From what I've seen, the Sure Lock may just be too aggressive for a house shot, regardless of the surface. I bowl with a guy who insists on using it on a house shot, and even with polish, it's dead after one game.

[KYDave]

Sorry Rob. Humor doesn't translate well over the internet sometimes. I was bowling Friday and a guy on the pair next to me was talking about carry down and thought oh it's a good thing Rob isn't here haha. I know it is a highly debated topic and interested to read your article I added in the strong ball and keep adding more and more surface because it won't hook, which is another common misconception that I know you love. I thought maybe adding in the more length using the approach and the ridiculous specs carried out decimal would give away where I was going. I should have added how I was a 3 handed bowler too haha.

[RobLV1]

sorry rob. Humor doesn't translate well over the internet sometimes. I was bowling friday and a guy on the pair next to me was talking about carry down and thought oh it's a good thing rob isn't here haha. I know it is a highly debated topic and interested to read your article i added in the strong ball and keep adding more and more surface because it won't hook, which is another common misconception that i know you love. I thought maybe adding in the more length using the approach and the ridiculous specs carried out decimal would give away where i was going. I should have added how i was a 3 handed bowler too haha.

roflmao!

[Amyers]

What I meant by that...is that the track...at least early on in a series...is very forgiving of mistakes. When you move inside...those mistakes are amplified.

So yes, the track burns up quickly...people start leaving flat 10s...maybe even coming in really light and leaving 2-pin combos and washouts. And, their pulled shots go from holding to though the nose splits.

BUT....the inside line requires more precision. A slight miss left...through the nose...a slight miss right....washout. Someone who is very precise...can probably play the inside line with great success and consistent scoring...with little interference from other bowlers. BUT...you can't "miss". 1-2 boards right or left...you're in trouble.



I really this just depends on what your used too. I move outside 8 I feel like every miss of 1/2 a board is amplified. While playing inside I feel like I'm basically just standing back throwing the ball at the friction.

[Amyers]

It took me a second but the 697.32 revs gave it away. lol. Unfortunately I have a kid I bowl with that does throw the ball 20 m.p.h. and simply can understand why his ball wont hook.

[DMS]

Amyers.... I have a hard time seeing the guy in your avatar picture stepping on the approach with the 'Skull' spare ball. You a hard-rocker in a nice shirt? <g>

My 'A' game is on the 5 board, down and in. Sometimes, I'll play outside of that, even. I can play an inside shot, but it needs to be a super-short pattern for it to be effective since I'm somewhat speed dominant. As Brian Voss says in his book, speed is critical in the modern game, so if you can get in the pocket with good position and angle, there's never too much speed. The upshot for a guy like myself is that I need all the friction I can find to get good pocket angle with my lower rev rate, and that means oil is still my enemy.... just like the old days! <g> One nice feature of the way-outside-down-and-in shot is that there's typically very little traffic there. As I grind a track in what little oil there is, I just make tiny adjustments in lay down point and / or speed, and can keep hitting all night while crankers are leap-frogging each other in the greasy part.

I almost never play the 10 board. Still too slippery there for my delivery... especially on these new-fangled synthetic lanes.

Would love to be 'king for a day' with that 600 RPM rev rate, though!! ;-) Ball must come back in the return a little warm after that! <g>

[RobLV1]

Terrifying!

[DMS]

"Terrifying! "

What.. The 600 RPM ball, or my game?.... Or Amyers' 'Skull' spare ball?? <vlg>

[Amyers]

"Terrifying! "

What.. The 600 RPM ball, or my game?.... Or Amyers' 'Skull' spare ball?? <vlg>

Probably all 3 lol. I work with a lot of younger bowlers and I will guarantee you there is such a thing as too much speed. There are also bowlers with too much revs. The modern game requires at least some semblance of balance between speed and rev rate to be effective especially if you intend on bowling in tournaments and sports patterns. THS patterns with substantial oil outside of 5 aren't unheard of here either for some strange reason a few proprietors here put down a shot that is slick outside with hook inside almost reverse block like but not to that extent.

I love the skull ball but it is probably soon to be retired as I'm probably switching to 14 lb. over the summer. I do enjoy having something that is different.

[RobLV1]

"Terrifying! "

What.. The 600 RPM ball, or my game?.... Or Amyers' 'Skull' spare ball?? <vlg>

Your game! If you are finding too much oil at the second arrow on a house shot, you are in serious need of some lessons.

[DMS]

Rob,

Well... I'm going to be in Vegas three times in the next few months to bowl tournaments. One for league (in which our team is rolling off for first place tonight!), next for the TAT at Orleans, and then a senior doubles tourney my wife and I are thinking of doing together. Want to take a look at me? I'll be happy to have your input, as I'm never opposed to improving or becoming more versatile!

I've read tons of your posts here, and have a lot of respect for your opinion. I have a local coach, WPBA player Virginia Norton. She's helped my game a ton in the few sessions I've had with her. I've been back to bowling again since Feb. 2016 after a 35 year layoff <g>! The game has indeed changed a LOT. I've still been effective with a down and in style on modern conditions, though. As I stated above, I am capable of playing an inside line if the conditions permit me to, and I do work on that shot during my practice sessions. I've studied a lot, too... So far, I've read (multiple times each)

Bare Bones Bowling (Voss; this book has been invaluable!)
Focused for Bowling (Hinitz)
Bowling Execution (Jowdy)
Bowling Fundamentals (Mullen)
Game Changer (Baker)

I really like Baker's take on timing, and that's what I really strive for... Ball at top of the swing on my power step. Also, I feel like I'm swinging the ball quite well... I 'walk past it', have a super relaxed grip, get the thumb out first, etc, etc, etc,. I do wear a wrist support, though, and obviously that's going to prevent the 'yo-yo' release. I'm a desk jockey, and my wrist is not built like an iron worker's. <g>

Would be delighted to meet you in real life and put a face to the online personality!

I've been averaging around 190 the last five weeks, and have been pulling out a lot of 200+ games. If you could help me push up to a scratch level average, believe me... I'd pay your bill in a second!

Finally, I'll say this... My home house puts out a helluva hard shot. It's slick as snot up the middle, and REALLY long. For a guy like myself coming back in from the days of wood lanes, it's like being on a different planet. The hand these guys put on their shots these days blows my mind. I haven't been able to do it, yet. I don't know if I'll EVER be able to do it. When I go play a different joint, it's almost ALWAYS easier, with way more friction at the edges and much better hold on shots that veer left. I'll typically score 20 to 40 pins higher at other houses, and can often move my line more inside (like you'd like to see). Still... I have a pretty easy time out on the twig almost anywhere I go, if I feel like playing it. Works for WRW, right? Why is it 'evil'?

Sorry to terrify you, man... I'm just a guy rollin' some balls!

[RobLV1]

The difference between me and a lot of coaches is that I'm not satisfied to teach bowlers how to "get by" on modern lane conditions with modern bowling balls, using traditional techniques. If you really want to succeed on synthetic lanes with modern bowling balls, then there are some significant changes that bowlers must make to their games, including developing a modern release, increasing ball speed, making lateral adjustments, seeing the lane from front to back, and really understanding their bowling balls.

I would be happy to help you, however, I will be the first to tell you that my rates are high: $100 per lesson (1 - 1/2 hours). With this being said, I have local bowlers who see me every couple of weeks, others who come from California for three lessons in three days, and many who come to bowl nationals here. One of my recent students from the Midwest came to bowl Nationals, saw me before he bowled, and shot 1880 something. I've yet to have any complaints. Give me a call at (702) 265-8472 when you get here if you'd like some help.

[Aslan]

...AND....

...Aslan is a former student....which Rob should lead with in his advertising.

I guess he could include Iceman in the advertisement too given the recent 300 games and 800 series...if those kinds of things impress you.

[Amyers]

...AND....

...Aslan is a former student....which Rob should lead with in his advertising.

I guess he could include Iceman in the advertisement too given the recent 300 games and 800 series...if those kinds of things impress you.

There may be REASONS why Aslan is not part of the Rob advertisement. LOL

[DMS]

Okay... Then it looks like I need a session with Rob!

I hadn't put it together until this thread, but I've got Rob's website in my favorites, and I've read through it at least a dozen times. A wealth of data in there.

Rob, you'll be happy to know I've worked on many of the things you've posted on, so maybe I'll be able to shape up fairly easily. So far, I've broken rule #2 (follow through outward instead of upward), have done my darndest to resist hitting up on the ball (breaking rule #1, with pretty good success), and have incorporated more spine tilt (breaking rule #3). As you note, I was taught to 'stay upright' with my spine in the 70's. Have also found the 'phantom step' to be incredibly useful in getting a nice, aligned footwork motion. Breaking rule #4 is way harder, but I think I'm getting there. Using a wrist support, I've obviously taken rule #5 out of the equation. I'm guessing you're going to take my wrist support away from me first thing! I'd be happy to not have it... Just not sure I can stay under the ball without it. One thing is for sure, I definitely am on the outer half of the ball at the bottom of the swing, and have had a really hard time getting the 'feel' of having my hand on the inside of it.

One of these upcoming trips, I'll call you a week ahead and we can schedule an appointment. Would love to have you take a look at me. Want to thank you for being kind and not just flaming me, too.

[RobLV1]

I look forward to it.

[MICHAEL]

I'm a little confused on this... behind the ball should be an earlier roll, while more side roll would mean further skid before reading, no?

What the hell do I know.. I am just a Bowling God on this site,, LOL,, I just know that what has taken me to a higher level, is knowing different hand positions. Maybe because I am a god, I am different?? To me,,when I launch my ball with my hand more behind it, it travels further down the lanes, and has a huge break at the end. That's with my Byte Storm ball. That's a story in and of itself.... when I have time to comment more on the subject. My average has went up a bunch working WITH THE different positions depending on the lanes I am bowling on! My average at Gladstone, STAYING BEHIND the ball, with a little flick with my middle and ring finger, stared me out with a 225 average. This JUST might be ICEMANS year! Thanks Rob for that ONE free lesson you gave me in Vegas!! Some are just quick learners!! I guess..... LOL

[Tony]

...AND....

...Aslan is a former student....which Rob should lead with in his advertising.

I guess he could include Iceman in the advertisement too given the recent 300 games and 800 series...if those kinds of things impress you.

Former students who have documented success, good advertising.

Former students who are better than they were, but have not reached their full potential, not the best advertising.

Guys who had one lesson and repeat it sarcastically, not good advertising.

[Aslan]

Former students who have documented success, good advertising.

Former students who are better than they were, but have not reached their full potential, not the best advertising.

Guys who had one lesson and repeat it sarcastically, not good advertising.

Well....it's obvious which one is Iceman. I hope I'm the 2nd one...because I'm definitely not the first one...