2 handed debate thread

[Aslan]

Consistency and spare shooting.

If you can score >250 in a game...but can't manage a 600 series...either:

1) You have lanes that transition quickly and you don't have the knowledge necessary to battle that.

or, more likely for beginners and newer bowlers...

2) You are 2-handed, thumbless, high-rev bowling...you get a ton of carry when you hit the pocket...but spare shooting is abysmal and as you tire...your shot doesn't stay consistent.

[chip82901]

Consistency and spare shooting.

If you can score >250 in a game...but can't manage a 600 series...either:

1) You have lanes that transition quickly and you don't have the knowledge necessary to battle that.

or, more likely for beginners and newer bowlers...

2) You are 2-handed, thumbless, high-rev bowling...you get a ton of carry when you hit the pocket...but spare shooting is abysmal and as you tire...your shot doesn't stay consistent.

Being 2-handed or thumbless or with a high rev rate doesn't make you a bad spare shooter or inconsistent. I've been a 2 hander my entire life and I can attest I'm quite good at spares. Also, my rev rate is around 400, and I can hit just about any mark you want on the lane and find a way to hit the pocket. Your comment about being 2 handed is pretty dumb. Most new 2-handers I could see having some issues with these things, but your comment comes out as saying all 2-handers. Just clarify yourself first

[Aslan]

Being 2-handed or thumbless or with a high rev rate doesn't make you a bad spare shooter or inconsistent. I've been a 2 hander my entire life and I can attest I'm quite good at spares. Also, my rev rate is around 400, and I can hit just about any mark you want on the lane and find a way to hit the pocket. Your comment about being 2 handed is pretty dumb. Most new 2-handers I could see having some issues with these things, but your comment comes out as saying all 2-handers. Just clarify yourself first

It's a well-understood weakness of higher rev styles.

CAN a higher rev bowler with these less-used styles do great at spares and have consistent series? Absolutely. I can think of 2 bowlers that I bowl against in league that are 2-handers and are very high level bowlers and great at spares. Absolutely.

BUT...there's a reason most PBA bowlers keep their thumb in the ball and are 1-handed bowlers. That reason isn't "carry"...because higher rev styles enhance carry. So, what could that reason be? Simply, that's how they've always done it? That's absurd. These players bowl for a living. If they thought taking their thumb out of the ball would help them win...they'd never use their thumbs again.

Higher rev/thumbless/cranker/2-handed styles quite simply enhance carry. And GENERALLY, the weaknesses are consistency and spare shooting. Bouncing a high-rev ball off a dry breakpoint can result in really high scores. And the bowlers that are really good (like Belmonte), have also mastered the other elements of the game in terms of where to move, how to stay consistent, and how to make spares. But, Belmonte is one of....like 3 high level bowlers in a sea of 400. And for every "Chip82901" that has mastered the style and can shoot spares at a high level...there are numerous bowlers that bowl 279-179-142 because they "tire" and then their revs and ball speed change...they start leaving splits...and they can't keep make their spares as well.

Bowling is all about consistency and repeatability...no matter what the style. The OP asked a question about why he can't shoot a 600 (or how to). My answer is consistency and spare shooting. I've seen far too many "other examples" (non-Chip examples) where bowlers just spin the heck out of a ball...it bounces off the breakpoint...and they look like Belmonte Jr. Then, they leave a 10-pin...and they miss it by 3ft. Or they get to Game #3...and they are panting and sweating and their back hurts...and they can't hit the broad side of a barn. That's what I've seen...70% of the time. NOT 100%.

But like I said...if you can shoot a >250 game...and you can't hit 600...the problem is usually consistency and/or spare shooting. Is the OP a 2-handed bowler? A cranker? A thumbless bowler? No idea. I was just guessing based on the information.

[NewToBowling]

Give it a few years. More and more two handeres will be on the PBA tour

[RobLV1]

The reason that there aren't more 2-handed bowlers on the PBA Tour is that they haven't got there yet. At this year's Master's, about 20% of the bowlers were two handers. 15 years from now, that's pretty much all you are going to see. In my recent interview with Pete Weber, I asked him if he was just starting out in bowling today would he go two-handed. He said he would and I concurred. The power that this style provides is pretty much unbeatable. As for them being bad spare shooters, they are no worse or better than any other bowler unless you are looking at the recreational league level where they've yet to hone their skills.

[chip82901]

Well, for starters, the OP said nothing about his style, you assumed...second...you assumed most 2-handers are inconsistent and get tired and have back problems...sounds like the age old saying of if you assume something you make an a** out of you and me...

Unless you're a hack, most 2 handers are MORE accurate. If I miss a 10 pin by 3 feet, I obviously did something wrong. If I leave a 10 pin, I'm probably going to drill it 9/10 times, the same as most 1-handed bowlers. This isn't just for me, this is most 2-handers that have actually taken the time to get better. I don't know how it goes out there in SoCal, but it sounds like you bowl with a bunch of 2-handed hacks that saw Belmo bowling well with it and decided to try it.

Now...I don't knock on new bowlers, or anyone trying it, as it is a difficult style to learn and master. Hell, I've been doing it my entire life and still haven't mastered it. But, I also try to learn something new every season, every tournament. You can't get better if you don't constantly learn something new.

As for the OP's post about shooting 250 and not shooting 600...I've been there, as most of us have. I bowl in probably the most difficult house in Wyoming. Twister pins, plus difficult oil break down, means averages are low, and you are constantly having to read adjustments. The house has changed DRAMATICALLY over the last 8 years. I went from averaging well over 200, to 190 this year. Now, I'll be the first to say, it's not just the house. I've had to change my approach, my release, timing, you name it, because I've gotten older (29 now), and sports injuries from HS are finally starting to catch up.

Your post kinda pissed me off, because I've battled the 2-handed critics my entire life, and I've had to be the advocate around here for them. Try to refrain from talking bad on any bowler. It's a dying sport that desperately needs new bowlers joining, whether they bowl 1-handed, 2-handed, or I hate to say it, even our little sniper buddy. The game is evolving, either jump on the train, or get run over by it, the choice is yours.

[Amyers]

Well, for starters, the OP said nothing about his style, you assumed...second...you assumed most 2-handers are inconsistent and get tired and have back problems...sounds like the age old saying of if you assume something you make an a** out of you and me...

Unless you're a hack, most 2 handers are MORE accurate. If I miss a 10 pin by 3 feet, I obviously did something wrong. If I leave a 10 pin, I'm probably going to drill it 9/10 times, the same as most 1-handed bowlers. This isn't just for me, this is most 2-handers that have actually taken the time to get better. I don't know how it goes out there in SoCal, but it sounds like you bowl with a bunch of 2-handed hacks that saw Belmo bowling well with it and decided to try it.

Now...I don't knock on new bowlers, or anyone trying it, as it is a difficult style to learn and master. Hell, I've been doing it my entire life and still haven't mastered it. But, I also try to learn something new every season, every tournament. You can't get better if you don't constantly learn something new.

As for the OP's post about shooting 250 and not shooting 600...I've been there, as most of us have. I bowl in probably the most difficult house in Wyoming. Twister pins, plus difficult oil break down, means averages are low, and you are constantly having to read adjustments. The house has changed DRAMATICALLY over the last 8 years. I went from averaging well over 200, to 190 this year. Now, I'll be the first to say, it's not just the house. I've had to change my approach, my release, timing, you name it, because I've gotten older (29 now), and sports injuries from HS are finally starting to catch up.

Your post kinda pissed me off, because I've battled the 2-handed critics my entire life, and I've had to be the advocate around here for them. Try to refrain from talking bad on any bowler. It's a dying sport that desperately needs new bowlers joining, whether they bowl 1-handed, 2-handed, or I hate to say it, even our little sniper buddy. The game is evolving, either jump on the train, or get run over by it, the choice is yours.

I'm not a big proponent of two handed bowling in my opinion it should have been banned as soon as it started (if happy gilmores method of driving actually worked think the PGA wouldn't have banned it in a hot minute) but you can't put the genie back in the bottle at this point. On THS shots even a poor two hander has an advantage. On sport shots and PBA level bowling they have to be as accurate as everyone else at least until they blow a hole in the pattern anyway. I actually think it takes much more work for a two hander to master spare shooting and kudos to those that do.

I see both sides of this issue and assuming he is two handed is wrong. I have some teammates who bowl two-handed I have no issue with them and both are capable spare shooters. I also know a few house hacks that are two handed that carry 215 averages that can't make a spare and are just as likely to shoot 140 as 240. I've seen a few of these from one handed bowlers also its just less obvious. I never blame the players I'll take every legal advantage I can get if I was 20 years younger might relearn that way myself.

As far as the age and bowling goes Aslan carries it to an extreme Not every two hander will be out of the game at 45 but last night one of the guys on my league celebrated his 72nd birthday still roles a beautiful ball and averages in the high 190s in a tough house do I see that as a possibility for a two hander no way.

[NewToBowling]

The reason that there aren't more 2-handed bowlers on the PBA Tour is that they haven't got there yet. At this year's Master's, about 20% of the bowlers were two handers. 15 years from now, that's pretty much all you are going to see. In my recent interview with Pete Weber, I asked him if he was just starting out in bowling today would he go two-handed. He said he would and I concurred. The power that this style provides is pretty much unbeatable. As for them being bad spare shooters, they are no worse or better than any other bowler unless you are looking at the recreational league level where they've yet to hone their skills.

Yep, just give it time. The quick rise of two handers just in the last few years is astonishing.

[chrono00]

I've thrown two handed a few games messing around in open bowling and done ok.

But normally no... One handed medium speed/rev rate.

[chip82901]

I'm not a big proponent of two handed bowling in my opinion it should have been banned as soon as it started (if happy gilmores method of driving actually worked think the PGA wouldn't have banned it in a hot minute) but you can't put the genie back in the bottle at this point. On THS shots even a poor two hander has an advantage. On sport shots and PBA level bowling they have to be as accurate as everyone else at least until they blow a hole in the pattern anyway. I actually think it takes much more work for a two hander to master spare shooting and kudos to those that do.

I see both sides of this issue and assuming he is two handed is wrong. I have some teammates who bowl two-handed I have no issue with them and both are capable spare shooters. I also know a few house hacks that are two handed that carry 215 averages that can't make a spare and are just as likely to shoot 140 as 240. I've seen a few of these from one handed bowlers also its just less obvious. I never blame the players I'll take every legal advantage I can get if I was 20 years younger might relearn that way myself.

As far as the age and bowling goes Aslan carries it to an extreme Not every two hander will be out of the game at 45 but last night one of the guys on my league celebrated his 72nd birthday still roles a beautiful ball and averages in the high 190s in a tough house do I see that as a possibility for a two hander no way.

That's the thing though...I've been bowling 2-handed for as long as I can remember (started bowling around 3-4, now 29). I honestly can see myself bowling like this for many more years. Like any sport, you have to take care of yourself to continue. I wouldn't say on a THS a 2-hander has an advantage over anyone! Yes, most have a higher rev rate, but you still have the same 60 feet, the same pins, and have to be able to make adjustments. Any 1-hander has the ability to put more revs on the ball. Hell, look at Tackett, Mallott...there's many more that have a higher rev rate than say, Anthony Simonsen. He's a 2-hander, but his rev rate and ball speed isn't through the roof. Belmo is just a freak of nature when it comes to how he releases the ball. Most 2-handers don't have near the speed, revs, nor accuracy that he has.

[fordman1]

you don't need a lot of strikes to shoot 600 series. Be a good spare shooter and you can shoot 6 with even 7 strikes :D
You have the sense of humor of a soccer player sir. But for argument sake you can't shoot 600 without strikes. You can without spares. Strikes are more important for "huge" scores...:cool:

By the was this that serious of a question? How do you bowl 900.

Sure two handed should have banned from the start. Once you became old enough to cross the street alone you use one hand to bowl.

[Amyers]

That's the thing though...I've been bowling 2-handed for as long as I can remember (started bowling around 3-4, now 29). I honestly can see myself bowling like this for many more years. Like any sport, you have to take care of yourself to continue. I wouldn't say on a THS a 2-hander has an advantage over anyone! Yes, most have a higher rev rate, but you still have the same 60 feet, the same pins, and have to be able to make adjustments. Any 1-hander has the ability to put more revs on the ball. Hell, look at Tackett, Mallott...there's many more that have a higher rev rate than say, Anthony Simonsen. He's a 2-hander, but his rev rate and ball speed isn't through the roof. Belmo is just a freak of nature when it comes to how he releases the ball. Most 2-handers don't have near the speed, revs, nor accuracy that he has.

I would agree with that.Belmao is a freak and you simply don't find that level of ability among most of the current stock of bowlers. the real difference in my opinion and it may not be worth much to develop the release of Tackett takes years of practice the typical two hander who is committed to learning how can develop that same rev rate in months instead of years. The accuracy to go along with it takes longer. This coincides with THS patterns if you have sufficient speed and revs as long as you can throw the ball to the friction your going to score well. I don't hate two handers it's not against the rules but I do believe they hold an unfair advantage against one handers in some ways.

[NewToBowling]

You have the sense of humor of a soccer player sir. But for argument sake you can't shoot 600 without strikes. You can without spares. Strikes are more important for "huge" scores...:cool:

By the was this that serious of a question? How do you bowl 900.

Sure two handed should have banned from the start. Once you became old enough to cross the street alone you use one hand to bowl.

Any good reason behind this besides jealousy or envy? (No need to answer, it's a rhetorical question)

[chip82901]

Any good reason behind this besides jealousy or envy? (No need to answer, it's a rhetorical question)

Haters are gonna hate. I've grown used to it by now lol

[Aslan]

Your post kinda pissed me off, because I've battled the 2-handed critics my entire life, and I've had to be the advocate around here for them. Try to refrain from talking bad on any bowler. It's a dying sport that desperately needs new bowlers joining, whether they bowl 1-handed, 2-handed, or I hate to say it, even our little sniper buddy. The game is evolving, either jump on the train, or get run over by it, the choice is yours.

1) The most annoying thing about 2-handers is they feel the need to "advocate" for two-handed bowling. If it's such a major advantage...it doesn't really need advocates does it?

2) While I agree it is getting a surge in popularity...mostly due to Belmonte's dominance...I still hesitate to join RobM in his assessment that someday it'll dominate the sport. Pete Weber may say that he'd bowl that way if he was starting over...but why wouldn't he do it NOW? Is he retiring? He's one of the greatest bowlers in history...I'm assuming he could master this new fangled style easier than most. Given his size disadvantage, I'm assuming he'd welcome the increase in power.

We'll see. I don't have a crystal ball. Maybe someday...hopefully after I've died...bowling will be 95% 2-handers and they'll have the "World Points System" where spares are irrelevant...and it'll likely be even less popular a sport than it is now. Players that once ended their careers due to knee and elbow issues...will now faced shortened careers with back and shoulder issues. New release $300 balls that used to help bowlers hook...will be replaced by balls made of teflon to keep them from hooking. Maybe we'll even have a bowling center on the moon...and it'll probably be owned by Bowlmor....because they will own EVERY center by then.

It doesn't matter to me...I won't be alive long enough to see any of it....God willing. For now...I see a few 2-handers here and there...a few of em are pretty good...most are "meh"...doesn't affect me much so to each their own.

Apparently the thread asking "How do you shoot your first 600?" is by a person that already shot one...which is confusing... :confused:

...so I'm done with it. It's time for me to go bowl...1-handed....like a regular person. :p

[mc_runner]

1) The most annoying thing about 2-handers is they feel the need to "advocate" for two-handed bowling. If it's such a major advantage...it doesn't really need advocates does it?


Just a quick thought, as a one hander myself... they need to advocate for it because lots of people are salty about it when there really shouldn't be a good reason to be.

[NewToBowling]

Just a quick thought, as a one hander myself... they need to advocate for it because lots of people are salty about it when there really shouldn't be a good reason to be.

Bingo

[chip82901]

Just a quick thought, as a one hander myself... they need to advocate for it because lots of people are salty about it when there really shouldn't be a good reason to be.

EXACTLY! Being that I've dealt with the criticism my entire life (still do to this day), I have to stick up for it, because it's what I do. If it were illegal or banned, as some people want it, where would bowling be today? Honestly, answer that question. It's growing the sport as we know it. More and more people are bowling BECAUSE of the 2-handed style. That's like saying ban lefty's cuz they have the advantage over right handers as there usually isn't near the amount of right handers. Same concept. But as I stated before, we all have 60 feet, 10 pins, and the same oil to battle.

[NewToBowling]

Note I am a 1-hander normal thumb bowler but to grow the sport we have to evolve. Two handers are not the devil many make them out to be. They still put on their pants one leg at a time :)

[fordman1]

How do you know that? I bet they grab them with both hands and step in both legs at the same time. Like a Fireman.
Final answer if you want to bowl a nice series you have to do three things throw strikes, make spares and get a few breaks.
No matter your goal 300, 600, 700, 800 or even 900.

[NewToBowling]

How do you know that? I bet they grab them with both hands and step in both legs at the same time. Like a Fireman.
Final answer if you want to bowl a nice series you have to do three things throw strikes, make spares and get a few breaks.
No matter your goal 300, 600, 700, 800 or even 900.

Nice back peddling :)

[Amyers]

EXACTLY! Being that I've dealt with the criticism my entire life (still do to this day), I have to stick up for it, because it's what I do. If it were illegal or banned, as some people want it, where would bowling be today? Honestly, answer that question. It's growing the sport as we know it. More and more people are bowling BECAUSE of the 2-handed style. That's like saying ban lefty's cuz they have the advantage over right handers as there usually isn't near the amount of right handers. Same concept. But as I stated before, we all have 60 feet, 10 pins, and the same oil to battle.

I'm not openly campaigning for a ban on two handed bowling but since you mentioned lefties have you looked at the left side of the last few years US Open patterns? If it were possible to reduce the advantages two handers have or all high rev styles have similarly through pattern adjustments that would be interesting.

[chip82901]

I'm not openly campaigning for a ban on two handed bowling but since you mentioned lefties have you looked at the left side of the last few years US Open patterns? If it were possible to reduce the advantages two handers have or all high rev styles have similarly through pattern adjustments that would be interesting.

I have actually looked at it. They've adapted the patterns. I get it. But, I was simply throwing out the idea that it's similar. I'm just trying to figure out why people bag on 2-handers so much. Just blows my mind

[Timmyb]

My only fear with the 2 handers is that the ball manufacturers will start leaning toward their style, which puts a lot of other people out. I know about a half dozen 1 handers that are real sorry they bought the Timeless. That ball was made for a 500+ rev bowler, and not for the average Joe. Although it is kind of nice seeing urethane making a comeback.

[chip82901]

My only fear with the 2 handers is that the ball manufacturers will start leaning toward their style, which puts a lot of other people out. I know about a half dozen 1 handers that are real sorry they bought the Timeless. That ball was made for a 500+ rev bowler, and not for the average Joe. Although it is kind of nice seeing urethane making a comeback.

Hell, I'm a 2-hander and I'm not sure I like the Timeless yet lol. I bowl with a lefty that loves his. One thing I've heard all styles say about it though is how well it reads the lanes, which is true. I've never had anything read that well

[stargell1]

EXACTLY! Being that I've dealt with the criticism my entire life (still do to this day), I have to stick up for it, because it's what I do. If it were illegal or banned, as some people want it, where would bowling be today? Honestly, answer that question. It's growing the sport as we know it. More and more people are bowling BECAUSE of the 2-handed style. That's like saying ban lefty's cuz they have the advantage over right handers as there usually isn't near the amount of right handers. Same concept. But as I stated before, we all have 60 feet, 10 pins, and the same oil to battle.

Show me some proof that 2 handers are growing the sport.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Show me some proof that 2 handers are growing the sport.

High school bowling has grown but as a whole the organizing bodies in bowling have failed miserably. ABC/USBC membership has declined every year since the 1981-82 season. SAD

[drlawsoniii]

High school bowling has grown but as a whole the organizing bodies in bowling have failed miserably. ABC/USBC membership has declined every year since the 1981-82 season. SAD

But where are the statistics that proves that high school bowling has grown due to the fact that 2 handed bowling is a thing now? All I ever seem to see are wild claims that have no studies behind them, just people making a lot of assumptions.

[fortheloveofbowling]

But where are the statistics that proves that high school bowling has grown due to the fact that 2 handed bowling is a thing now? All I ever seem to see are wild claims that have no studies behind them, just people making a lot of assumptions.

Didn't mean to imply that. I was really just addressing the GROWING THE SPORT part of the sentence. Although 2 handers at all levels are growing in numbers. There may be a time coming in the future if participation numbers turn around that you could make a case for it though.

[drlawsoniii]

Didn't mean to imply that. I was really just addressing the GROWING THE SPORT part of the sentence. Although 2 handers at all levels are growing in numbers. There may be a time coming in the future if participation numbers turn around that you could make a case for it though.

I didn't phrase that well, I wasn't only speaking to high school bowling but all bowling for that matter. I think a lot of the decline in the sport is due to the aging baby boomer generation not being able to bowl or even afford to while living on social security. I think the pick up in recent years is more due to that after the lull in birthrate from 1965 to 1980 we had steady growth in births through 1990. see chart https://www.dropbox.com/s/wo1tflrswoi8of7/baby%20boom.png?dl=0

[chip82901]

Show me some proof that 2 handers are growing the sport.

Look at your youth leagues, look at how many up and coming 2-handers are on the tour...it's gaining an interest. Hell, just in my home house in a town of 24,000 people, where our leagues have been down for YEARS, we gained 3 new 2 handers in our men's league, all of them under the age of 25. Our association has a whopping 200 people maybe between the men and women, and maybe another 100 youth. Of that 100 youth, I'd guess probably 25 of them bowl with 2 hands. Now, if it were banned, how many of these people would be bowling? If it were banned, you'd lose 25% of the kids we had. That's 25% less involvement at the youth level. Which translates into 25% less once they reach adult leagues...Which translates into...well, you should get the point by now

[Amyers]

Look at your youth leagues, look at how many up and coming 2-handers are on the tour...it's gaining an interest. Hell, just in my home house in a town of 24,000 people, where our leagues have been down for YEARS, we gained 3 new 2 handers in our men's league, all of them under the age of 25. Our association has a whopping 200 people maybe between the men and women, and maybe another 100 youth. Of that 100 youth, I'd guess probably 25 of them bowl with 2 hands. Now, if it were banned, how many of these people would be bowling? If it were banned, you'd lose 25% of the kids we had. That's 25% less involvement at the youth level. Which translates into 25% less once they reach adult leagues...Which translates into...well, you should get the point by now

That tells you the style is being adopted not how many of those would have bowled conventionally if not for the style

[fordman1]

I received an email from the USBC last week it was a survey asking questions about bowling. One question was do you approve of two handed bowlers. Or maybe it was would you ban them. It was a rather long survey and I don't think I saved it.
Sure would like to see the results.
Oh yea ban them was my vote.

[drlawsoniii]

That tells you the style is being adopted not how many of those would have bowled conventionally if not for the style

Amyers that's been my point all along thank you for putting it better than I did.

[Brite1]

I guess I don't understand the notion that two handed bowling should be banned. Feels to me like people wanting it to be banned are just jealous of the fact that someone is bowling better than themselves. If you truly think there is such an advantage to bowling two handed, take the time to learn the style. Saying it should be banned is acting like a 5 year old saying that person shouldn't be able to do that because I can't figure it out and they're better than me doing it.

The way I look at it, there are advantages disadvantages to both two handed and traditional one handed bowling. It should be a choice each bowler is aloud to make themselves and not something that is decided for them. Ultimately banning it has a high likelihood of decreasing interest in bowling because a lot of younger people think it looks neat or cool and that is what they will gravitate towards. Granted, if it's banned some may still choose to bowl in a traditional manner but I feel for the most part they won't.

PS, I'm a 26 year old traditional style bowler. So it's not like I'm trying to advocate for two handed bowling as something I do. My thought is why turn anyone who could be a potential future bowler for life(or as long as they physically can) away. Seems foolish.

[chip82901]

I received an email from the USBC last week it was a survey asking questions about bowling. One question was do you approve of two handed bowlers. Or maybe it was would you ban them. It was a rather long survey and I don't think I saved it.
Sure would like to see the results.
Oh yea ban them was my vote.

I'd love to hear your reasoning on why it should be banned. USBC has already limited my equipment range. I can't throw anything I had drilled prior to the 2016 season without plugging it and redrilling it due to their lovely 1 hole outside of gripping hole nonsense. I understand the reasoning for the rule, but it was either plug a bunch of equipment, or buy all new equipment. It forced me to adjust my layout due to the center of grip being the bridge now, instead of where it would be if I used my thumb, which changed my PAP. Either way I went (I went with new equipment), I was going to be forced to spend a few hundred just to make it legal for me to throw a ball. I see zero advantage honestly in being a 2-hander. What? A higher rev rate? The average 2-hander, if they put a TON of revs on the ball, MIGHT BE at 400rpm. There are PLENTY of pros on tour that are right there, if not more (Tackett, Sean Rash, Ciminelli, Kent, Malott, BJ Moore, the Tang bros, Rhino..just to name a few). Plus, we get ZERO aid in our release, while there are NUMEROUS robo-wrists out there. So please, lets hear your reasoning

[Amyers]

I guess I don't understand the notion that two handed bowling should be banned. Feels to me like people wanting it to be banned are just jealous of the fact that someone is bowling better than themselves. If you truly think there is such an advantage to bowling two handed, take the time to learn the style. Saying it should be banned is acting like a 5 year old saying that person shouldn't be able to do that because I can't figure it out and they're better than me doing it.

The way I look at it, there are advantages disadvantages to both two handed and traditional one handed bowling. It should be a choice each bowler is aloud to make themselves and not something that is decided for them. Ultimately banning it has a high likelihood of decreasing interest in bowling because a lot of younger people think it looks neat or cool and that is what they will gravitate towards. Granted, if it's banned some may still choose to bowl in a traditional manner but I feel for the most part they won't.

PS, I'm a 26 year old traditional style bowler. So it's not like I'm trying to advocate for two handed bowling as something I do. My thought is why turn anyone who could be a potential future bowler for life(or as long as they physically can) away. Seems foolish.

I don't believe that it should be banned currently the genies out of the bottle at this point and it would hurt bowling to prohibit it now. I do believe the sport made a major mistake in not banning it 15 years ago in the early stages of it's adoption.

I know two handers that I'm a lot better than and I know some who can wipe the lanes with me. It's not an animosity towards them that fuels my opinion on the style. It's not the first time that an unconventional style has been introduced to a sport. Take side arm pitchers or knuckle ballers both legal in baseball but the trade offs to the style have to equal or it would take over. It's my opinion we maybe seeing this in bowling the advantages are to great for the trade offs. If we reach the point that 50% of the tour bowls this way I know I'll lose interest.

If I were 20 again I would probably pick the style up as you suggest at 43 it's really not an option. That's one of the trade offs people in their 20's aren't considering while I don't agree with Aslan that most people will be broken down and the age of 40 to be able to do it I do not believe that many will be able to maintain that style into their 50s and 60s as many bowlers do. In many of my current leagues If I eliminated bowlers over 50 I wouldn't have to worry about lane courtesy. I doubt those 2 handed bowlers will be any more willing tow relearn how to bowl conventionally than I am to change today.

I know many of you feel it's adding interest to the sport but in the long term your watching it's demise. A handful of 2 handers on league night results in some grumbling and these are the early adopters coming up now. 5-10 years from now when you see the results of these guys who grew up throwing the ball this way with proper coaching being 20-30% of the league conventional bowlers will quit in droves and as those 2 hand bowlers age they will retire from the sport much more quickly than the previous generation.

[Brite1]

I don't believe that it should be banned currently the genies out of the bottle at this point and it would hurt bowling to prohibit it now. I do believe the sport made a major mistake in not banning it 15 years ago in the early stages of it's adoption.

I know two handers that I'm a lot better than and I know some who can wipe the lanes with me. It's not an animosity towards them that fuels my opinion on the style. It's not the first time that an unconventional style has been introduced to a sport. Take side arm pitchers or knuckle ballers both legal in baseball but the trade offs to the style have to equal or it would take over. It's my opinion we maybe seeing this in bowling the advantages are to great for the trade offs. If we reach the point that 50% of the tour bowls this way I know I'll lose interest.

If I were 20 again I would probably pick the style up as you suggest at 43 it's really not an option. That's one of the trade offs people in their 20's aren't considering while I don't agree with Aslan that most people will be broken down and the age of 40 to be able to do it I do not believe that many will be able to maintain that style into their 50s and 60s as many bowlers do. In many of my current leagues If I eliminated bowlers over 50 I wouldn't have to worry about lane courtesy. I doubt those 2 handed bowlers will be any more willing tow relearn how to bowl conventionally than I am to change today.

I know many of you feel it's adding interest to the sport but in the long term your watching it's demise. A handful of 2 handers on league night results in some grumbling and these are the early adopters coming up now. 5-10 years from now when you see the results of these guys who grew up throwing the ball this way with proper coaching being 20-30% of the league conventional bowlers will quit in droves and as those 2 hand bowlers age they will retire from the sport much more quickly than the previous generation.

I guess I don't quite understand why conventional bowlers will quit in droves. Why should it matter if someone is bowling 2 handed, one handed traditional, between the legs, lefty, righty, or any style? If everyone just works on there own personal game and works to better themselves, that's what should matter. Again, if people are going to up and quit just because others are bowling 2 handed, that is lending to my acting like a 5 year old comment. I understand that may not be what you would do personally Amyers, but the fact that there are those who would just makes it seem like sore losers.

And I completely understand that some older individuals may not have the ability to switch their throwing style, but that's just the nature of sports. You weren't going to see Peyton Manning become a dual threat QB towards the latter part of his career. It's just the nature of growing older and the human body detiorating.

I guess I just think it is odd to say 2 handed bowling should have been banned back 15 years ago or now. Why discourage anything that has the possibility to grow a sport and attract new members. People saying they would leave due to the new style are just acting like the stubborn old individuals(no disrespect intended) who make the younger generation not want to join in the first place.

[drlawsoniii]

I guess I don't quite understand why conventional bowlers will quit in droves. Why should it matter if someone is bowling 2 handed, one handed traditional, between the legs, lefty, righty, or any style? If everyone just works on there own personal game and works to better themselves, that's what should matter. Again, if people are going to up and quit just because others are bowling 2 handed, that is lending to my acting like a 5 year old comment. I understand that may not be what you would do personally Amyers, but the fact that there are those who would just makes it seem like sore losers.

And I completely understand that some older individuals may not have the ability to switch their throwing style, but that's just the nature of sports. You weren't going to see Peyton Manning become a dual threat QB towards the latter part of his career. It's just the nature of growing older and the human body detiorating.

I guess I just think it is odd to say 2 handed bowling should have been banned back 15 years ago or now. Why discourage anything that has the possibility to grow a sport and attract new members. People saying they would leave due to the new style are just acting like the stubborn old individuals(no disrespect intended) who make the younger generation not want to join in the first place.

This goes back to my original point, what data is there that the increase in the interest in bowling is due from the 2 handed bowling style? What percentage of 2 handed bowlers out there would not have started bowling because 2 handed bowling never became a thing. Every argument for 2 handed bowling I've ever heard has revolved around unsupported claims of the growth being due to 2 handers. Bringing in a mechanical catapult and launching the ball toward the pins has the possibility to grow the sport, should we start allowing that too?

[fordman1]

Chipper to be honest I don't give a ship how you throw the ball. But I answered the question asked and to add to it I don't like the new balls reactive makes everyone have a built in hook. It enables bowlers to throw much harder and still get the ball to hook. I also don't like the gutter lofting. Stay on your approach. Bring back the above ground ball returns. I don't like the Pro bowlers on TV getting 30 minutes of practice. And last but not least keep you dirty little A$$ of my Grass. :cool: have a nice day!

[bowl1820]

I don't like the new balls reactive makes everyone have a built in hook.

That's pretty much what has been said about any "new" type ball that's came out.

Before Urethane the new technology was polyester (Plastic) balls. In one of Don Johnson's books he told how they looked at plastic balls back then , like we look resin balls today.

He talked about how they (Plastic balls) snapped into the pocket (which shows how much lane conditions have changed today) and even Glenn Allison made the comment back then that plastic carried more garbage hits than rubber.

[chip82901]

Chipper to be honest I don't give a ship how you throw the ball. But I answered the question asked and to add to it I don't like the new balls reactive makes everyone have a built in hook. It enables bowlers to throw much harder and still get the ball to hook. I also don't like the gutter lofting. Stay on your approach. Bring back the above ground ball returns. I don't like the Pro bowlers on TV getting 30 minutes of practice. And last but not least keep you dirty little A$$ of my Grass. :cool: have a nice day!

I'm not a fan of how aggressive all the equipment has gotten tbh. I don't need a ball that will rip all 39 boards off the lane. Nor do I want to gutter cap. Nor do I like the fact that lane conditions tend to lean towards having to use these. I never really had the opportunity to throw old school urethane, on hand oiled lanes, or bowl with above ground returns. But, if I had my choice, I'd rather play straighter. I do own a urethane ball, but I also own some of the more aggressive equipment for when its needed. Hell, I'm not a fan of some LEAGUES getting 15 minutes of practice, although I would like my home center on our 5-man leagues to get more than 7 minutes. But in all honesty, the game is evolving, ball companies keep putting out more and more aggressive equipment, and the lane conditions keep getting catered toward it. It's all a product of the great USBC

[Amyers]

I guess I don't quite understand why conventional bowlers will quit in droves. Why should it matter if someone is bowling 2 handed, one handed traditional, between the legs, lefty, righty, or any style? If everyone just works on there own personal game and works to better themselves, that's what should matter. Again, if people are going to up and quit just because others are bowling 2 handed, that is lending to my acting like a 5 year old comment. I understand that may not be what you would do personally Amyers, but the fact that there are those who would just makes it seem like sore losers.

And I completely understand that some older individuals may not have the ability to switch their throwing style, but that's just the nature of sports. You weren't going to see Peyton Manning become a dual threat QB towards the latter part of his career. It's just the nature of growing older and the human body detiorating.

I guess I just think it is odd to say 2 handed bowling should have been banned back 15 years ago or now. Why discourage anything that has the possibility to grow a sport and attract new members. People saying they would leave due to the new style are just acting like the stubborn old individuals(no disrespect intended) who make the younger generation not want to join in the first place.

Well I'm overacting a bit on you typical mixed league it really won't make much difference but I tend to be in more the high level league and low level tournament crowd. The truth is a very talented two hander can simply blow up a pattern for his benefit pretty easily and in a way that a conventional bowler cannot on a lot of patterns they simply over power it. That's true of modern bowling in general and the two handed style in particular.

Maybe I am just old. I bowled with three 2 handers on my travel league team I bear them no animosity their talents are theirs alone

[chip82901]

Well I'm overacting a bit on you typical mixed league it really won't make much difference but I tend to be in more the high level league and low level tournament crowd. The truth is a very talented two hander can simply blow up a pattern for his benefit pretty easily and in a way that a conventional bowler cannot on a lot of patterns they simply over power it. That's true of modern bowling in general and the two handed style in particular.

Maybe I am just old. I bowled with three 2 handers on my travel league team I bear them no animosity their talents are theirs alone

Anyone with a rev rate will destroy an oil pattern, it has nothing to do with delivery. TBH, most house bowlers will blow up the 10 board more than I will. At that point, its just a bank shot for anyone that can put a little hand in the ball

[J Anderson]

I received an email from the USBC last week it was a survey asking questions about bowling. One question was do you approve of two handed bowlers. Or maybe it was would you ban them. It was a rather long survey and I don't think I saved it.
Sure would like to see the results.
Oh yea ban them was my vote.

The fact that the USBC would put a question about banning two handed bowling is another example of poor leadership. Here you have a technique that you say is legal. You have spent time and money developing coaching materials to help coaches teach two handers to bowl effectively. Now you're going to ask your membership should we ban this technique?

[Aslan]

Just a quick thought, as a one hander myself... they need to advocate for it because lots of people are salty about it when there really shouldn't be a good reason to be.
Well, then it's a "chicken/egg scenario"...because what makes me MOST want to be "salty" about it...is the way 2-handers feel the need to advocate for it at every opportunity.


If it were illegal or banned, as some people want it, where would bowling be today? Honestly, answer that question.
The same place it is. Maybe slightly lower popularity at the junior level...probably less popularity outside the US...but marignal. There just aren't enough 2-handers in the overall pool of US bowlers where someone could claim 2-handed bowling is growing the sport.


More and more people are bowling BECAUSE of the 2-handed style.
That is a completely false statement based in on absolutely no data nor anything of value.

Are more Austrailians bowling 2-handed because of Belmo's success? Sure.
Has it caught on with some international teams? Yes.
Is it something that has gotten some more junior/youth level bowlers interested in the sport? I think so.

But...so what?
The sport has been in massive decline since the late 70s. EVERY ATTEMPT made by the BPAA, USBC, and PBA to fix the problem...has been a complete failure.

Why is the sport dying?
1) There are FAR more things to do with our leisure time than there used to be. The choice isn't bowling or sitting at home building model ships. You now have endless, endless things you can do with your time...and that has killed almost every 70s/80s era leaisure activity.
2) Our corporate society is no longer "loose with the $". No more companies sponsoring teams, buying them shirts, etc... That used to be a part of many companies monthly expenses...but as we've gotten leaner and more focused on productivity and the bottom line...those days have disappeared.

Now...to the things that the USBC/BPAA/PBA HAVE done....which actually have further destroyed the sport:
3) As revenues have fallen...the sport now relies almost entirely on the income it receives from the major bowling ball manufacturers. Why do you think the PBA didn't even bother "investigating" whether Motiv players intentionally cheated using out of spec equipment? Because...had they investigated it...and found wrongdoing...they would have had to suspend Motiv from the PBA...and there goes a large chunk of their operating income. The ball manufacturers run the show now...so the sport caters to them...and they want balls that don't last as long, hook like crazy, and cost $300.

As a result...the sport has gotten "easier". Bowling a 300-game used to be a lifetime accomplishment...now, depending on where you bowl...it could be a monthly accomplishment. It used to takes years and years to master the bowling approach and release...now any guy with $300 can get a ball that "hooks all by itself". People used to average in the 120s-150s...trying to get better. Guys in the > 175 range were considered "good". 195...you were a pro. Now, I've seen bowlers average in the 170s the second year they pick up a ball.

4) The lane conditions are impossibly stupid and inconsistent...and the USBC has no ability nor will to police the conditions. While the ball manufacturers are KINGs....the BPAA is still the powerful source to the sport as a whole. And the BPAA...wants FUN FUN FUN....Lazer Tag....Arcades....Glo Bowling....drinking....corporate parties....and HIGH scores!! They want $$$....and as much as they can get their hands on. Lane conditions that lead to high scoring...THATs the ticket!

So, while I understand the premise of the argument...that 2-handed is a new thing that has the potential to grow the sport...realize it's not the FIRST attempt to do so. There has also been talk about converting to the World Bowling method of scoring...where spare shooting is essentially a minor part of the game. There are the "PBA Leagues" where we get to watch random bowlers picked in a stupid fantasy draft...bowl against each other in front of a fake/raucus crowd. And yes...we have 2-handers. :rolleyes:

But how does it actually translate into making the game popular? If the game is dominated by two-handers...the one-handers will quit. That's roughly 91% of the sport. If ball manufactures start making balls that appeal more to 2-handers...1-handers will quit...again, same problem.

The "key" is fairness. When bowling balls were rubber and it was legal to soak them in a solvent before matches....bowlers soaked them in a solvent. When that was deemed "unfair"...it was banned. When block lane conditions were deemed too easy...they were banned (sort of) and we now have the THS. And, as lefties tended to have an unfair advantage at the USBC Open...changes were made to level the playing field.

2-handed bowling is no different. I'm happy it's helping to attract more youth to the sport. I think the key to reviving the sport is at the youth level...not 2-handed...but I agree it's at the youth level. But if 2-handers start to dominate the sport...I hope the sport reacts by changing lane conditions or banning it altogether....not because I hate the style...but because if it makes the sport a "joke"...and you lose 1-handers as a result...the sport is dead....DOA...do not recussitate (however you spell it). The sport doesn't "need" 2-handers...but it NEEDS 1-handers....because they are the backbone of the sport and will be for another 1-2 decades.

[2handedsniper]

its hard to do 2 handed with house balls so
cosmic bowlers can't do 2 handed so they never join a league, so cosmic bowling is doing well but leagues not so much. House balls do not have a performance core

[1VegasBowler]

Last summer while I was doing a practice session, just for the heck of it I tried a 2 handed approach. It took all of 2 throws for me to say no way! lol

First of all, it takes time to really get into being able to do it and I certainly applaud those who are able to. BUT, I also know how it felt on my body to do it as well. It made my arm, knee and back realize that the energy and torque that is put on the body is much greater than the traditional approach, and IMO it certainly raises the question as to how long one can actually do this, and how much of a toll it will take before there are some serious injuries.

Even with having a new knee, there's no way I'll do the 2 handed. But by the same token, I don't begrudge those that can do it. I just think that the body will breakdown sooner than expected.

Only time will tell what the long term effects are, and we'll see it with Belmo and the many others when they get older.

[Timmyb]

Last summer while I was doing a practice session, just for the heck of it I tried a 2 handed approach. It took all of 2 throws for me to say no way! lol

First of all, it takes time to really get into being able to do it and I certainly applaud those who are able to. BUT, I also know how it felt on my body to do it as well. It made my arm, knee and back realize that the energy and torque that is put on the body is much greater than the traditional approach, and IMO it certainly raises the question as to how long one can actually do this, and how much of a toll it will take before there are some serious injuries.

Even with having a new knee, there's no way I'll do the 2 handed. But by the same token, I don't begrudge those that can do it. I just think that the body will breakdown sooner than expected.

Only time will tell what the long term effects are, and we'll see it with Belmo and the many others when they get older.

I can't even do the "no thumb" thing. Knowing the state of my body, I'd end up in the emergency room. That being said, leave it alone. Things like this have a way of fixing themselves. If this is the way it's going to be, at least it's bringing attention to the game. But, if these guys start falling by the wayside, there's going to be a lot of "I told you so".

[Aslan]

Body "breakdown" is a known deficiency of the style.

I took a USBC youth coaching class 2-3 years back and there were a few questions about "should we teach 2-handed?" or "what if a youngster wants to bowl 2-handed?" And the USBC answer is, "whatever gets a bowling ball in their hand." If they throw a back-up ball, thumbless, or 2-handed...as long as it gets them on the lanes...at that age...it's all good. And I have no problem with that whatsoever.

BUT...the coach that was conducting the class commented that the 2-handed approach, while it had some advantages and recent successes...the one major drawback was health-related. Nearly every major 2-handed player on the tour...has had significant back problems. It's a style that...even when done properly, creates the torque the last 2 posters talked about, and most people's backs just can't handle it for long periods of time.

I've been watching the PBA50 tour (decided to get XtraFrame again despite my anger with the PBA over the Motiv situation...but only to watch the PBA50 and PWBA...I am still boycotting the National Men's Tour). The PBA50...is all about longevity. There are a LOT of great bowlers...that never end up bowling the PBA50...because by 50, their bodies are ruined. And that's throwing ONE-handed....the "right" way (I don't mean 1-handed is the "right" way....I mean they are at the highest level and their approaches/releases are smooth). Walter Ray Williams isn't the most technically sound bowler in history...but he has more titles than any bowler in history. Pete Weber and Norm Duke and Parker Bohn are still forces to be reckoned with. But where is Mark Roth? Mark Roth...is arguably the best bowler in the history of the game. But Mark Roth had too many injuries early on. His thumb, his wrist, his elbow, his shoulder. Mark Roth was the father of the "cranker" approach...and could do things that most other bowlers on the tour couldn't. And that got him a TON of success....for a very short time.

2-handed bowling is the next generation of the "cranker style". It will enjoy a great deal of success...and players will see Belmo and the others and flock to that style to give them the advantage the style brings...but I doubt you'll see many 2-handers on the PBA50 tour. And when people say Belmo is the "greatest bowler ever"...I simply respond, "we'll see." Give Belmo 7-8 more years...see if he can amass the number of titles that Weber and WRW have amassed...or Earl Anthony. But, my bet is that Belmo's back gives out long before he can amass those titles...and certainly before he's eligible for the PBA50. And then...he'll be the next "Mark Roth"...a guy who was absolutely dominant when he was in his prime...but just didn't have the longevity to be "the greatest".

At my age (older than Chip and the 20-30 somethings that tout 2-handed bowling)...my goal is to someday play at the Regional PBA level...maybe even the PBA50 someday. Those are LOFTY goals...LONG TERM goals...probably borderline "dreams" than "goals"...but in order for me to have a chance at attaining those goals...at a minimum, I have to stay healthy. My knees, ankles, elbow, shoulder, wrist...I have to make sure that I put as little strain on those areas as I can...because once they start to "go"...that ends the dream real fast. So, becoming a 2-hander or even a thumbless cranker....is not in line with me trying to stay healthy enough to bowl until I'm 60...should I live so long.

Most of the older folks on this board...had they started bowling 2-handed 5 years ago...wouldn't be bowling today. And, the reason I don't see a need for the USBC to "ban" it...is...it'll sort of "ban" itself. While we might see a lot more 2-handers at the youth level...collegiate level...and International Level....2-handers on the National Tour will tend to have shorter careers..and I doubt we'll see many two-handers ever make it to the top of any career title lists nor at the PBA50 level. And thus, it'll "limit itself".

[1VegasBowler]

Body "breakdown" is a known deficiency of the style.

I took a USBC youth coaching class 2-3 years back and there were a few questions about "should we teach 2-handed?" or "what if a youngster wants to bowl 2-handed?" And the USBC answer is, "whatever gets a bowling ball in their hand." If they throw a back-up ball, thumbless, or 2-handed...as long as it gets them on the lanes...at that age...it's all good. And I have no problem with that whatsoever.

BUT...the coach that was conducting the class commented that the 2-handed approach, while it had some advantages and recent successes...the one major drawback was health-related. Nearly every major 2-handed player on the tour...has had significant back problems. It's a style that...even when done properly, creates the torque the last 2 posters talked about, and most people's backs just can't handle it for long periods of time.

I've been watching the PBA50 tour (decided to get XtraFrame again despite my anger with the PBA over the Motiv situation...but only to watch the PBA50 and PWBA...I am still boycotting the National Men's Tour). The PBA50...is all about longevity. There are a LOT of great bowlers...that never end up bowling the PBA50...because by 50, their bodies are ruined. And that's throwing ONE-handed....the "right" way (I don't mean 1-handed is the "right" way....I mean they are at the highest level and their approaches/releases are smooth). Walter Ray Williams isn't the most technically sound bowler in history...but he has more titles than any bowler in history. Pete Weber and Norm Duke and Parker Bohn are still forces to be reckoned with. But where is Mark Roth? Mark Roth...is arguably the best bowler in the history of the game. But Mark Roth had too many injuries early on. His thumb, his wrist, his elbow, his shoulder. Mark Roth was the father of the "cranker" approach...and could do things that most other bowlers on the tour couldn't. And that got him a TON of success....for a very short time.

2-handed bowling is the next generation of the "cranker style". It will enjoy a great deal of success...and players will see Belmo and the others and flock to that style to give them the advantage the style brings...but I doubt you'll see many 2-handers on the PBA50 tour. And when people say Belmo is the "greatest bowler ever"...I simply respond, "we'll see." Give Belmo 7-8 more years...see if he can amass the number of titles that Weber and WRW have amassed...or Earl Anthony. But, my bet is that Belmo's back gives out long before he can amass those titles...and certainly before he's eligible for the PBA50. And then...he'll be the next "Mark Roth"...a guy who was absolutely dominant when he was in his prime...but just didn't have the longevity to be "the greatest".

At my age (older than Chip and the 20-30 somethings that tout 2-handed bowling)...my goal is to someday play at the Regional PBA level...maybe even the PBA50 someday. Those are LOFTY goals...LONG TERM goals...probably borderline "dreams" than "goals"...but in order for me to have a chance at attaining those goals...at a minimum, I have to stay healthy. My knees, ankles, elbow, shoulder, wrist...I have to make sure that I put as little strain on those areas as I can...because once they start to "go"...that ends the dream real fast. So, becoming a 2-hander or even a thumbless cranker....is not in line with me trying to stay healthy enough to bowl until I'm 60...should I live so long.

Most of the older folks on this board...had they started bowling 2-handed 5 years ago...wouldn't be bowling today. And, the reason I don't see a need for the USBC to "ban" it...is...it'll sort of "ban" itself. While we might see a lot more 2-handers at the youth level...collegiate level...and International Level....2-handers on the National Tour will tend to have shorter careers..and I doubt we'll see many two-handers ever make it to the top of any career title lists nor at the PBA50 level. And thus, it'll "limit itself".

Mark Roth had a stroke a few years back and was the major contributor to his not bowling. Though he has bowled a few tournaments, he still has many lingering effects from the stroke.

[Aslan]

Mark Roth had a stroke a few years back and was the major contributor to his not bowling. Though he has bowled a few tournaments, he still has many lingering effects from the stroke.

Yes, he did.

But, he also had significant injuries numerous times near the end of his tour career...mostly thumb/hand related.

[1VegasBowler]

Yes, he did.

But, he also had significant injuries numerous times near the end of his tour career...mostly thumb/hand related.

That too is correct. His thumb and wrist injuries affected him throughout his career.

But it was the stroke that has prevented him from bowling.