ABT Tourney frustration

[chip82901]

Bowled my first ever ABT local tourney in SLC this weekend. One thing I noticed...if you're over 190 average, don't even bother. There was SO.MUCH.HANDICAP. Also, they bowled on a house pattern that was flooded in the middle. When I say a boat load, one of the guys that made the semi finals was getting 69 pins a game, plus 9 BONUS pins a game...and rolled a 201, 177 in qualifying! A buddy of mine made the semis with 12 pins a game, goes 440 for 2 games and was 50 pins out from making the cut to the top 4. I'd like to bowl another one, but definitely would like more competition in it!

[foreverincamo]

Are you saying the others are sandbagging?

[Timmyb]

I've thought about entering one of these, but have heard nightmares like this. This'll pretty much settle it.

[chip82901]

Are you saying the others are sandbagging?

I dunno about sandbagging, but definitely not the caliber of bowlers I would have figured for $1000 to win. It definitely made me a little frustrated when I got there and the director told me they only bowl on house shots as he can't get bowlers otherwise. Was even thinking of going to the big one in Vegas in a few months, but if it's anything like the local one here, not gonna waste my money lol

[fokai73]

ABT: another baggers tournament.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

^ exactly. That's what we call it around here too

[Aslan]

I tried the abta...is was horrible. It was all ran by asians....I think many of whom were related (husbands/wives, sisters/brothers, etc...)...and it seemed like the same 3-4 bowlers won each week...75% of the time...it was one of the ones that ran it or was related.

The ABT was better...but the bonus handicap system (designed to encourage players to participate each week/month) tends to make it difficult to win unless you want to participate a lot. I cashed two out of 4 tournaments...but I never made it into the top 10.

I'd probably give the ABT a try again...but I'd need a higher average and a great deal more disposable income. And by the time I get "good enough", I'd probably be more interested in scratch, sport, or PBA challenges.

[NewToBowling]

I tried the abta...is was horrible. It was all ran by asians....I think many of whom were related (husbands/wives, sisters/brothers, etc...)...and it seemed like the same 3-4 bowlers won each week...75% of the time...it was one of the ones that ran it or was related.

The ABT was better...but the bonus handicap system (designed to encourage players to participate each week/month) tends to make it difficult to win unless you want to participate a lot. I cashed two out of 4 tournaments...but I never made it into the top 10.

I'd probably give the ABT a try again...but I'd need a higher average and a great deal more disposable income. And by the time I get "good enough", I'd probably be more interested in scratch, sport, or PBA challenges.

Racist much. Try putting blacks instead of asians and see how that looks. Inferring that since it was run by asians it was rigged. Maybe it was because they were run by the same extended family? Or are all asians scammers? I'm curious. Yes, I'm Asian so you probably don't trust me either.

[Tony]

Racist much. Try putting blacks instead of asians and see how that looks. Inferring that since it was run by asians it was rigged. Maybe it was because they were run by the same extended family? Or are all asians scammers? I'm curious. Yes, I'm Asian so you probably don't trust me either.

I doubt it was directed at Asian people in particular, he just feels that anytime someone beats him, they are getting an advantage somewhere or somehow, if they have lower averages they are sand bagging, if they have higher averages they are boosted by easy home lane conditions..... Pretty much all the odds are stacked against him.
I think it's a conspiracy and all of the 1000's of bowlers in his area are working together to prevent Aslan from doing well. I have to say if there was a conspiracy it would be doing pretty well.....now since he might be moving, presumably to get away from this situation, but we are way ahead of the game and have organizers stashed all over the country ready to collaborate and keep him from winning. Iceman and the farm boys in the Midwest, Several guys on the east coast and others. Don't worry California / Vegas group we have it covered if he moves this way !

[fokai73]

Still, that was an ignorant comment. there are ways Aslan could of stated how shady a tournament was because it seemed to run by relatives or bowling buddies.

I consider myself Pacific Islander with Asian roots (blood line on my fathers side started in southern Italy) and I'm not sensitive to racial remarks towards me even though my parents suffered racially moving to America after WWII. I'm just too laid back to waste my time on ignorance..

where I bowl, my people's be shady, so are white dudes, black dudes, and some need to be black balled or banned. You see, bowling will have baggers, the system encourages it..

[J Anderson]

Still, that was an ignorant comment. there are ways Aslan could of stated how shady a tournament was because it seemed to run by relatives or bowling buddies.

I consider myself Pacific Islander with Asian roots (blood line on my fathers side started in southern Italy) and I'm not sensitive to racial remarks towards me even though my parents suffered racially moving to America after WWII. I'm just too laid back to waste my time on ignorance..

where I bowl, my people's be shady, so are white dudes, black dudes, and some need to be black balled or banned. You see, bowling will have baggers, the system encourages it..

Any game that uses a handicap system will be prone to sandbagging. And since humans are not robots, bowlers not not always score within five pins of their average. This leads to many people being accused of being sandbaggers when they are only having a really good or a really bad day. Throw in the fact that most leagues, even social/recreational leagues are paying out prize money, and you have a lot of temptation to sandbag, a few who are adept at 'average management', some who are blatantly bagging and a fair number of innocents being falsely accused.

[fordman1]

I need new glasses I thought his name was ASIAN you mean it is ASLAN? Darn.

[Timmyb]

NTB, you probably want to grow a skin around Aslan. He's not politically correct, doesn't tend to sugar coat things, and my guess is won't apologize for anything he says on here. Wish we had more like him.

Aslan, if you make it near Milwaukee, I'd be honored to throw a couple with you. Or against you!

[Stormed1]

ABT around here uses sport patterns. But like everywhere else and most handicap tournaments there are baggers everywhere.

[Tony]

I need new glasses I thought his name was ASIAN you mean it is ASLAN? Darn.

I made the same mistake and referenced him in a comment a while back.

When considering race, I pretty much consider everyone here members of the bowling race, it's really all that matters.

[foreverincamo]

"Handicapped events are prone to be won by sandbaggers." Captain Obvious.

[fordman1]

I made the same mistake and referenced him in a comment a while back.

When considering race, I pretty much consider everyone here members of the bowling race, it's really all that matters.

Not every one in the human race is humane...

[chip82901]

Weird that someone brought up the asian thing lol. Matter of fact, there were quite a few of these bowlers that were in fact asian. Although most of them threw a great ball (super smooth!). It just blew my mind on the handicap is all. Might go down in a few weeks and try it again (same house). Now that I know what to expect both shot wise and bowler wise, maybe I would get so pissed off lol

[JaxBowlingGuy]

There are actually quite a few that do the ones around here as well as run it.

[fordman1]

There are actually quite a few that do the ones around here as well as run it.
Robert are you referring to Asians or sandbaggers? Be careful or you will get in trouble with the super duper senior moderator. :rolleyes:

[JaxBowlingGuy]

Robert are you referring to Asians or sandbaggers? Be careful or you will get in trouble with the super duper senior moderator. :rolleyes:

Both. I never really paid any attention to it but when it was mentioned here I did notice there was a large Asian presence at the ABT and one other large paying handicap tournament I did. Doesn't bother me either way really. As long as the money is green and beer is cold lol

[fordman1]

Excuse my ignorance, what does the A stand for?

[chip82901]

Amatuer bowlers tour

[JaxBowlingGuy]

Excuse my ignorance, what does the A stand for?

Not Asian lol

[Aslan]

Racist much. Try putting blacks instead of asians and see how that looks. Inferring that since it was run by asians it was rigged. Maybe it was because they were run by the same extended family? Or are all asians scammers? I'm curious. Yes, I'm Asian so you probably don't trust me either.
It was not meant to generalize the entire race of asian or pacific islanders. Some of the best people I know are Asian (from one area or antoher) and I would not generalize 1/5 of the World's population.

THAT BEING SAID...I've been told BY ASIANS....that one of the "common beliefs" in their communities is that "cheating is fine, as long as you can get away with it." Another version of that is, "if you're not cheating, you're not trying."

I, like Iceman, am TOTALLY against that philosophy...regardless of what race (because I've heard some similar comments by african americans, caucasians, etc...) holds that belief.

You're a good guy in my book NTB...but as TimmyB stated (quoted below)...I'm one of the least poltically correct people I know. That is NOT...because I'm callous or hateful or non-empathetic/sympathetic...I just tend to be brutally honest and our society has moved away from honesty to a society where we all just say what everyone wants to hear...because God forbid someone says something we disagree with.


I doubt it was directed at Asian people in particular, he just feels that anytime someone beats him, they are getting an advantage somewhere or somehow, if they have lower averages they are sand bagging, if they have higher averages they are boosted by easy home lane conditions..... Pretty much all the odds are stacked against him.
Tony bowls at one of the easiest centers in his area...he didn't "like" that I pointed that out...so now he's mad at me. Whatever.

I didn't make up any of the stats I used to prove my argument...statistics "can" be bent to prove an individual's hypothesis...but statistics also can be used to validate an assumption. Had I looked into the matter and found that Tony's center was NOT one of the easier centers in the area...I'd have said so.


I think it's a conspiracy...
I look forward to bowling against Tony in the future.

But...as we found out during the 2013/2014 "Bowling Boards Virtual Tour"...once you start "leveling the playing field" and forcing bowlers to bowl at centers they don't usually bowl at...bowlers tend to "retreat" to the safety of their home center. I heard excuse after excuse after excuse....everything from "traffic" to "crime rates" to pretty much ANY excuse to avoid playing on a level playing field when I was organizing that competition.

I WISH I would have gotten to respond to Tony's post on "Knowledge vs. Natural Talent"....it was a "gem". But...Bowl1820 killed it before I could respond. I actually could make a really good case for bowling knowledge...but I digress.

So...Tony...I'll be in the MidWest soon. I'm sure we can find a center midway between NW Illinois and central Iowa...and we can settle this the old fashioned way (NOT a fight...don't shut the thread down because I'm "threatening a member")...but I'd be more than thrilled to put my bowling knowledge AND skill against your natural abilities on a level playing field. MORE than thrilled. But, given my past experience with the VBT...I have a sneaking suspicion Tony will have NUMEROUS reasons why he can't meet the challenge.


Still, that was an ignorant comment. there are ways Aslan could of stated how shady a tournament was because it seemed to run by relatives or bowling buddies.

I consider myself Pacific Islander with Asian roots (blood line on my fathers side started in southern Italy) and I'm not sensitive to racial remarks towards me even though my parents suffered racially moving to America after WWII. I'm just too laid back to waste my time on ignorance..

where I bowl, my people's be shady, so are white dudes, black dudes, and some need to be black balled or banned. You see, bowling will have baggers, the system encourages it..
Again, (see above post), my statement wasn't meant to disparage 1/5 of the World's population. The TNBA is primarily run by African Americans. I haven't bowled in a TNBA event...but if I DID...and IF it was run in a "shady" fashion....I'd probably have described it the same exact way..."run by almost all African Americans, many of whom were related." If people want to be butt hurt....they are gonna be butt hurt. That's just the way the World works nowadays. I apologize my thread wasn't about ice cream, bunny rabbits, and unicorns....and flower power...but thats just not who I am. Ignorant? Maybe. Probably. I'm sure I'm "ignorant" about certain things....I'm sure everyone is. But, I can only go by my experiences and try to be fair in my responses. I don't believe my post was: "All Asian people are cheating &$%%wads." That would be ignorant. I merely made an observation based on my experiences. I'm sure if my post truly upset you...there is some snowflake cry room on some nearby college campus where you can go to get free hugs.

Actually, the ABT in this area is run by all white people...and the 3 people in charge are all related. However, that didn't seem to be a problem in the 4 events I took part in...and the family members weren't winning every single week. Does that mean "all white people are fair?" Nope...definitely not. That would be an ignorant statement.


NTB, you probably want to grow a skin around Aslan. He's not politically correct, doesn't tend to sugar coat things, and my guess is won't apologize for anything he says on here. Wish we had more like him.

Aslan, if you make it near Milwaukee, I'd be honored to throw a couple with you. Or against you!
TimmyB sums it up quite well. I have never apologized for I who I am...I didn't back down when the site threatened me with banishment...and I'm not going to start now. HOWEVER...I have "mellowed" in my time on the site...am much less of a "bull in a china shop" than I used to be...and I HAVE apologized for posting things if I was legitimately wrong or short-sighted. I'm not perfect...not by a LONG shot...but hopefully my positive impacts in the forum outweigh my negatives.

[fordman1]

Lots of great stuff there. Tell us how you feel about Russians, North Koreans or Muslims? I ordered steak in Korea years ago and later found out it was dog. Lots more to that story but not here and not now.

[chip82901]

It kills me how much a 170 average bowler talks smack. I don't care what house you bowl in, 170 is 170. Even in a hard house, anyone that's decent is over 185. I bowl in notoriously the hardest house in WY. that being said, I think I finished this OFF year at 190. Years past, I've been well over 200. The hardest part about our house? Carry (twister pins are the devil). Get me on somewhere with wood pins (pretty much anywhere else in the state) and I'm 215+ all day (it's been proven). I think some of you guys think you know more than you actually do. It makes for cheap entertainment!

[Aslan]

All you did was copy/paste your post from the other thread.

So...go to the other thread and I already responded to you. Although, I don't know if you're talking about me or not, referring to a "170 average bowler". Or, are you referring to a post I made in late 2014 when I was a 170s average bowler? Or...are you referring to my "lifetime average".

Just to help ya a bit...that "lifetime average" if my average over the course of my entire life bowling. I started keeping track of it when I was casually bowling a few times a year...when I was about...10 years old????? As of right now...it includes 2,849 games over 3 decades. Given the number of games...it takes about 150 games to raise it one pin.

[Aslan]

Lots of great stuff there. Tell us how you feel about Russians, North Koreans or Muslims? I ordered steak in Korea years ago and later found out it was dog. Lots more to that story but not here and not now.
You live in Dearborn. Tell me how you feel about Muslims. (native Michigander joke)

[fordman1]

You live in Dearborn. Tell me how you feel about Muslims. (native Michigander joke)

They treat their woman terribly. Ever heard of female circumcision? Barbaric?

[Aslan]

They treat their woman terribly. Ever heard of female circumcision? Barbaric?

Female circumcision? Barbary?

Tell us more.

[Not really. I am just joking with Bowl1820 regarding my comment. I think we can put the thread back on track regarding amateur tournaments and avoid racist generalizations and forced circumcisions.......or can we...?]

KIDDING!!

Okay...back on the rails...has anyone out there taken part in any amateur tournaments that they thought were run really well?

I mentioned the TNBA...it's organization that has been around FOREVER...I haven't heard bad things about their tournaments. Anyone?

A new tournament format/series is being developed here in Southern California called "Game Time Bowlers". It's a multi-tournament, bracket style tournament...seems really interesting. They use sport patterns, you get a jersey with your membership...you can read more here (https://www.gametimebowlers.com). I was going to try it...but it's a multi-tournament format and I'm moving.

[J Anderson]

Okay...back on the rails...has anyone out there taken part in any amateur tournaments that they thought were run really well?

I mentioned the TNBA...it's organization that has been around FOREVER...I haven't heard bad things about their tournaments. Anyone?

I haven't bowled a TNBA tournament but I did bowl in a TNBA summer doubles league a few years back with my friend Tom. Talk about being in the minority, I'm a middle aged white guy, Tom looks like he stepped out of a 1960s surfing movie, and we were both bowling left handed. At least 75% of the bowlers were not caucasian, and because there was an average cap of 395 per team, most teams had a high average male bowler and a lower average female bowler. The league was well run and every one was friendly and sportsmanlike.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

TNBA tournaments are some of the most fun I have had a tournament. We have the Sunshine Challenge once a year (July) in Orlando where all the senates in FL come together to bowl against each other. Runs from Thursday to Sunday and includes battle of the sexes, scratch sweeper, team, doubles and the challenge event on Saturday night. Each senate fields 4 teams (open male/female, and senior male/female) based on the highest series' bowled that weekend. Then the teams are randomly seeded into a bracket and bowl for a traveling plaque and more importantly bragging rights for the year. There's some serious money changing hands on side bets as well. I have seen people betting $100 a frame and $1000 plus a game and this is the spectators lol. Either Friday or staurday night they also do a large buffet style gathering for all the bowlers.

[chip82901]

Female circumcision? Barbary?

Tell us more.

[Not really. I am just joking with Bowl1820 regarding my comment. I think we can put the thread back on track regarding amateur tournaments and avoid racist generalizations and forced circumcisions.......or can we...?]

KIDDING!!

Okay...back on the rails...has anyone out there taken part in any amateur tournaments that they thought were run really well?

I mentioned the TNBA...it's organization that has been around FOREVER...I haven't heard bad things about their tournaments. Anyone?

A new tournament format/series is being developed here in Southern California called "Game Time Bowlers". It's a multi-tournament, bracket style tournament...seems really interesting. They use sport patterns, you get a jersey with your membership...you can read more here (https://www.gametimebowlers.com). I was going to try it...but it's a multi-tournament format and I'm moving.

The Storm Northwest tour is primarily an amatuer deal, with the exception of a few guys that are ball reps, and the Storm open this year saw 3 pros (BJ Moore and the Tang bros). It's a great deal, if it didn't involve 6-8 hours of travel every weekend for me