Aslan's Arsenal Progression Discussion Thread: (Part 2 of 6)

[Aslan]

I'd like to talk about "How to Create a Bowling Ball Arsenal/Progression".

This will be a Six Part discussion focusing on these topics one at a time:
1) Coverstock (solid, hybrid, pearl)
2) PerfectScale (and other hook measurement tools)
3) Surface
4) Core Symmetry
5) Differential
6) RG

I tried to start with the "simplest" and work towards the more complex.

ASSUMPTIONS
1) Assume you're putting together a 4-5 ball arsenal to allow you to address lane transitions and to allow you versatility to play multiple centers/conditions.

So, to start, what are YOUR THOUGHTS regarding this strategy concerning PERFECTSCALE (and other "hook rating" systems):

Ball #1 (first ball out of bag, fresh conditions, longer patterns, sport patterns, etc...)
> 208.9

Ball #2 ("go to ball", ball down option from Ball #1, regular ball, THS ball, etc...)
196.8 to 208.9

Ball #3 (slightly stronger ball than ball #2 to combat "carrydown", 3rd ball out of the bag, "skid/flip" ball, etc...)
> 204.8

Ball #4 (dry lane ball, wood lane ball, practice ball, etc...)
< 196.8

GUIDELINES
1) Let's try NOT to jump ahead to the other topics. Obviously, bowling balls are complex because there are SO many factors that affect ball movement....but if we can't limit ourselves to just one topic at a time...the dicsucssion will quickly dissolve into generalities about arsenals.

I KNOW this is frustrating...but last time I tried to talk in depth about ball prograssion systems...we tried to talk about every possible combination of specs/characteristics that go into arsenal creation...and the thread was very, very hard to read.

2) I INVITE ROBM to participate. I know he HATES "assumptions" and "progressions"...and I'm certainly, certainly not downplaying the need to let the lanes dictate how you play them. But;
- RobM is one of the foremost experts on ball technology and I feel his comments will enhance the value of this discussion a great deal (Bigly in Trump Speak).
- When putting together an "arsenal"...there ARE limitations. Most bowlers only use one ball...but even serious bowlers with "arsenals" do not have an endless ocean of balls to choose from (my Closet of Destiny aside)...so they MUST limit themselves to a limited "set".
- AND...I KNOW that Rob has written on this very topic on his website or BTM...so again, his input, again, would be very helpful.

[Aslan]

Now...there are more than one rating system out there. Each ball manufacturer has their own system...which works fine if you only use one manufacturer's equipment. MANY bowlers do this and tend to be very "brand loyal"...especially those bowlers that are staffers and required to only throw certain manufacturer's equipment.

BUT...for the many, many bowlers that use multiple brands....numerous rating systems exist.

For those not familiar with PerfectScale....it is the system developed by the forum's parent site (bowlingball.com) and is described in detail HERE (https://www.bowlingball.com/info/perfect_scale.html).

Before I go into my thoughts, here are some thoughts from the previous discussion thread:

BOWL1820: "Note: The PerfectScale Rating system can be misleading."

ASLAN: "I realize the PerfectScale rating is misleading...but I'm only using it as 1/5 of the evaluation. And as I said...it remarkably does a better job of predicting when a ball is going to hook than simply going my hybrid versus solid versus pearl....I think because it factors in the actual strength of the cover material...but I'm guessing at that."

JJKinGA: "Rather than the perfect scale to account for coverstock friction, I think you may want to look at BTM's length rating which is designed to provide spearation between the bowling balls and give an idea of the amount of friction. BJI has a similar rating but BTM has been very transparent about how it is measured and it should be pretty consistent. It tracks very well to how they rate the balls for a given amount of oil (longer is higher rated on dry, shorter rates better on heavy). I haven't found that the torque, back end or hook ratings are that useful to me. Perhaps because those properties are more drilling depedant."

I have NOT looked at the BTM or BJI rating systems. My BTM subscription has expired...and I didn't renew it...NOT because it wasn't valuable....I just never had enough time to stay current on the articles. Like my XTraFrame subscription...I loved watching the qualifying and match play...but it took hours and hours of time and I'd end up trying to watch events from 3-4 months ago...well behind the tour...and could never seem to catch up until the season was over.

I'd be interested in hearing more about those systems (and others) as part of this thread...if anyone cares to share (and has a current subscription(s)).

REMEMBER...I am going from topics I believe are LEAST important...to those that are MOST important...so I'd consider PerfectScale (or other overall rating systems) to be more reliable a factor than COVERSTOCK...but not as important as the other factors listed...and from previous comments on this topic...most others would echo that sentiment.

[Aslan]

My THOUGHTS on PERFECTSCALE are as follows:

In Support of PerfectScale:

When I put my first arsenal together...I tried the Solid, Hybrid, Pearl approach. The glaring deficiency in that approach...was I was trying to start with a Hammer Rhythm (essentially a cross between the popular Taboo and Arson lines)...a SOLID...then moving to the 900 Global Bullet Train (a HYBRID). I ended up having to switch them in the progression...because the Bullet Train had an S79 cover...a very strong cover.

Had I used PerfectScale instead of coverstocks to allign my progression...I'd have DEFINITELY started with the Bullet Train (222.8) rather than the Rhythm (211).

In my current arsenal, despite having 3 balls that are all pearls and ALL have identical RGs...the Ebonite Innovate is my #2 option and has a PerfectScale rating WELL below the #1 ball; the Reax Pearl (224.8).

Another "PRO" of these systems...is that they simplify what is an almost impossible task...taking into account 7-14 different "specs"...including things NOT listed in my 6 factors...like "Age/Technology" or "Manufacturer". Some manufacturers have equipment that rolls SOONER....some manufacturers have a tendency to roll LATER. Balls have been getting increasingly stronger and stronger over time...and that is taken into account with PerfectScale as well. Using a system based on something like coverstock or RG...you may end up comparing a Radical and Ebonite ball...both Pearls, both 2.49 RG...yet Radical and Ebonite are on different ends of the spectrum in terms of where on the lanes they hook. Same thing with Age/Technology...a bowling ball from 1994 with a 2.50 RG is not going to have the same hook potential as a ball from 2016 with a 2.50 RG.

The Counter Arguement, from my perspective is:

PerfectScale often mirrors Differential. A higher differential...often equals a higher PerfectScale. So by using BOTH as factors in my "system" I'm trying to develop...I'm sort of "double-counting" differential.

Also, the STRENGTH of these type of rating systems is that they take all the specs into account. That "strength"....is also the "weakness"....because it doesn't really tell you "why" a particular ball is stronger/weaker. If a ball has a super strong CORE....but a weak COVER...it may have the same PerfectScale rating as a ball with a very weak CORE, and a very strong COVER....and you're not going to know that...even thought that "may" be an important distinction.

In the progression I listed...I think your strongest ball should have a higher PS rating, than your next strongest ball. If you are using ball #3 to battle carrydown...it should also have a higher PS rating than Ball #2. And if you have a ball #4 to use on drier/shorter/wood conditions...it should probably have a lower PS rating.

Thoughts from the group??

[RobLV1]

There are two ways to define hook:

1) The traditional method measures the number of boards covered.
2) The size of the angle of the change of direction as the ball completes the hook phase on the lane.

I think that it is pretty easy to see that the tradition method is totally dependent on when the ball hooks: the earlier the hook phase starts, the more boards the ball will cover. The size of the angle of the change of direction is totally dependent on the release of the bowler and within a general type of ball (reactive resin, for example) will not change from ball to ball.

Once you accept this basic fact, the very idea of a "Perfect Scale" becomes flawed, right along with the hook potential ratings used on the PBA ESPN telecasts. Length is the only way to evaluate how a ball hooks, other than to consider the duration of the hook phase which is affected by the differential though in different amounts for different bowlers.

[JJKinGA]

Over the years I have found I care much more about the length than total hook. This is even more true when I play at multiple houses. Getting the ball to read the lane at the right distance make s sure I can stay in the pocket. So i have my arsenal set up so I have three balls that read early, two medium, and one that goes pretty long. for the early reading balls, I have one that hooks a lot, one medium and one very little (urethane). For the medium I have one that hooks a lot and one that is medium. This lets me find a length that gets to the pocket well and an amount of hook that maximizes entry angle with control. For my usual bowling center I only bring the medium/high hook, long and the early/low hook. That way i have an option if the lanes are very wet/dry (early/low hook) or abnormally dry (long).

[Tony]

I can totally agree that length is the factor that is most important / helpful to me, the PS ratings have not provided any meaningful information to me, in fact they have been somewhat misleading to the point where I really don't consider them a useful tool in purchasing a ball.
Sadly with all the spec's and reviews available, some of the best sources for information on the ball, have been watching other bowlers I know throw the ball, and talking to my PSO.

[Amyers]

I can totally agree that length is the factor that is most important / helpful to me, the PS ratings have not provided any meaningful information to me, in fact they have been somewhat misleading to the point where I really don't consider them a useful tool in purchasing a ball.
Sadly with all the spec's and reviews available, some of the best sources for information on the ball, have been watching other bowlers I know throw the ball, and talking to my PSO.

ding, ding, ding winner, winner chicken dinner. Of course throwing the ball yourself is the best tool but rarely available. If you can understand surface and Rg. you can get a clue to what the ball will do the only real way I've found to judge the strength of the cover is to watch the ball rolled. You do have to understand how different bowlers throw the ball in relationship to you but it's the best indicator of how the cover strength effects the ball motion

[Amyers]

I agree with the below comments about length and you've evaluated perfect scale as being slightly more useful than cover composition which I would say is correct in the manner of both being completely useless for anything. I've pointed out balls ratings in the perfect scale that were completely incorrect on here before. If I knew nothing about bowling balls maybe the perfect scale might be effective in helping me make a decision but I certainly would not base an arsenal on it for the simple fact as it has no bearing on when the ball hooks

[bowl1820]

"the earlier the hook phase starts, the more boards the ball will cover."

The earlier a ball starts the hook phase, doesn't necessarily mean it will cover more boards.

Most of the time when bowlers say "Hook" what they are referring to is backend, that dramatic angle change they see a ball make.

Here's a simple example:
The illustration is not remotely to scale and so the ball paths are slightly distorted and would look different on a actual lane.
http://s5.postimg.org/3ry5g09zb/lane_diagram_tbc.jpg

A more to scale diagram as you can see the red&black lines are hard to see thus the above diagram:
http://s5.postimg.org/58f6en05j/lane_full_length_br.png

Which hooked more?

Most players would say the Red ball "Hooked" more because they seen it make a dramatic angle change, It went long and snapped hard.

But both balls (Red & Black) have covered the same amount of boards, The main difference was just where the ball made the change in direction "hooked".

The Black ball started it's hook earlier than the Red one, but that didn't make it cover anymore boards than the Red one.

Note:

Frontend Boards Covered (FBC): This is the number of boards crossed from the laydown point to the breakpoint.
Backend Boards Covered (BBC): This is the total number of boards crossed from the breakpoint to the entry board at the pocket.
Total Boards Covered (TBC): This is the total number of boards crossed from the time the ball contacts the lane until it enters the pocket.

[Aslan]

I can totally agree that length is the factor that is most important / helpful to me, the PS ratings have not provided any meaningful information to me, in fact they have been somewhat misleading to the point where I really don't consider them a useful tool in purchasing a ball.
Sadly with all the spec's and reviews available, some of the best sources for information on the ball, have been watching other bowlers I know throw the ball, and talking to my PSO.
1) I would hesitate to call these type of rating systems, "misleading". Any rating systems "can" be misleading if you rely solely on it for your decisions.
2) As discussed in some other threads...the only things I would rate "less important" than Coverstock (least important on my list) are:
- what manufacturers say (marketing)
- what average bowlers say (uninformed heresay)
- watching other bowlers throw the ball
- what the PSO in the center says (slightly informed/biased information/slightly marketing)
- online video reviews
- ball demos/personal trials
- drilling layouts

...in that order.

1) Manufacturers lie in order to make $$$. I've never, not once, heard a manufacturer say, "This ball sucks...but it's a cool color scheme and has a cool name."

2) Average bowlers are idiots....and couldn't tell you what 2 of the 6 items I've listed even mean. Most bowlers in an average house league don't even know a ball HAS a core...much less anything else.

3) If you watch a 400rpm bowler throw a ball....and it looks awesome so you buy it...you're likely to disappointed that it doesn't do nearly the same thing with your suitcase style release.

4) I can't count on two hands how many times BB users have complained about a ball they bought, based on a PSO recommendation. Pro shops are in the business of SELLING you things. If those things don't work...they are in the business of selling you a replacement thing. And most PSOs "think" they know way, way more than they actually do...and virtually none of them agree with each other. If they DID know as much as they pretend to...they'd be bowling rather than drilling bowling balls.

5) Online reviews are slightly better than just watching people throw stuff...because they give you more information and are more informed than the average bowler. BUT....like manufacturers....I've never heard a bad online review and rarely seen a video where the ball doesn't strike. The only way they get free balls to throw...is by saying really awesome stuff about the balls they get for free.

6) Ball demos are somewhat meaningful...because it's at least YOU throwing the balls. But....a good bowling ball is a a ball that FITS your hand. Bowling balls at demos rarely "fit" your hand the way they would if you bought them and had them drilled. AND...you have to hope they have the ball you want, in the weight you want, drilled in the way you want....AND....hope they put a fresh pattern down rather than bowl on open bowling conditions.

7) We had a really, really long debate about drilling layouts before...it's a complicated subject...but in summary...drilling layouts certainly DO affect ball motion...but you can't drill your way to a good ball reaction...and once it's drilled...it's drilled....not something you can "tweak" unless you want to shell out another $15 to fill in the holes and another $55 to re-drill it. A lot of expense for minimal benefit. I think it's been proving that surfacing is a much more effective way to fine tune ball motion...much less expensive as well.


ding, ding, ding winner, winner chicken dinner. Of course throwing the ball yourself is the best tool but rarely available. If you can understand surface and Rg. you can get a clue to what the ball will do the only real way I've found to judge the strength of the cover is to watch the ball rolled. You do have to understand how different bowlers throw the ball in relationship to you but it's the best indicator of how the cover strength effects the ball motion
But again...you and Rob tend to be in the "Candyland" camp....where you're basing that on the assumption that every bowler has access to every bowling ball on the market and can simply go to the lanes....throw every ball...and make a decision. That's NOT an option for 99.999999% of bowlers. The point of a rating system...is to give you some type of data...so you can limit your choices to a certain subset of balls that are most likely to fit your needs.

Absolutely....throwing every new release...drilled to fit your hand...drilled in every possible layout...on conditions you are likely to see on league night would be IDEAL. But, it would also be IMPOSSIBLE.

Like I said when I added my 2 cents....these rating "compromise rating systems" 'can' be misleading...IF you use them by themselves. And...since PerfectScale seems to mirror differential...I'm not sure how valuable it is to consider both of them. On the other hand, as listed above, I think I'd trust PerfectScale or the BTM/Bowling Journal numeric ratings more than I'd trust "Clive McDoodle" who recommends Ball A because it smells like a pomegranate and he once bowled a 250 with it.

NOTE: I forgot to add "ball scent" to the list of characteristics that are rather meaningless. I had a Storm ball that smelled like Lime...kinda made my ball bag smell good. I just bought my second Storm ball (added to Closet of Destiny) and it says it smells like Cranberries...but to me it smells like somebody vomited after drinking fruity cocktails. I imagine I'll now have to order some Storm product to get rid of the smell....nice little marketing scam... :mad: :cool:

I'll try to get to Part 3 of this topic this weekend. The GOOD news (hopefully) is that as we move further down the list...we'll be dealing with the more impactful variables rather than arguing about/discussing the more meaningless ones.

[Tony]

Rather than the perfect score PS that is made up of exactly what, no one knows because it's a secret hasn't been much help to me, however
the rating grid at BTM shows a couple of important (to me) factors about a given ball length / hook in a graph format you can plot with other balls
this allows you to see length and hook properties and you can use this to help you in choosing a selection of balls that will enable you to adapt to lane conditions.

Yes you can tweak balls to change the properties somewhat, but this lets you see, you have a medium hooking , long ball, I've many times a player say I need a ball to go a little longer, turn a harder or something similar. I've never heard a guy say I need a ball with a perfect score of 180 to 192, that would get the 10 pin out on those light hits.

Others can and will use information that is totally useless to decide what ball they should buy and use. I for one can't see where the PS tells me anything of value at all, it's a composite number derived from multiple ball properties. How on earth does that help me unless I know what's in it.

[Tony]

1) I would hesitate to call these type of rating systems, "misleading". Any rating systems "can" be misleading if you rely solely on it for your decisions.
2) As discussed in some other threads...the only things I would rate "less important" than Coverstock (least important on my list) are:
- what manufacturers say (marketing)
- what average bowlers say (uninformed heresay)
- watching other bowlers throw the ball
- what the PSO in the center says (slightly informed/biased information/slightly marketing)
- online video reviews
- ball demos/personal trials
- drilling layouts

...in that order.

1) Manufacturers lie in order to make $$$. I've never, not once, heard a manufacturer say, "This ball sucks...but it's a cool color scheme and has a cool name."

2) Average bowlers are idiots....and couldn't tell you what 2 of the 6 items I've listed even mean. Most bowlers in an average house league don't even know a ball HAS a core...much less anything else.

3) If you watch a 400rpm bowler throw a ball....and it looks awesome so you buy it...you're likely to disappointed that it doesn't do nearly the same thing with your suitcase style release.

4) I can't count on two hands how many times BB users have complained about a ball they bought, based on a PSO recommendation. Pro shops are in the business of SELLING you things. If those things don't work...they are in the business of selling you a replacement thing. And most PSOs "think" they know way, way more than they actually do...and virtually none of them agree with each other. If they DID know as much as they pretend to...they'd be bowling rather than drilling bowling balls.

5) Online reviews are slightly better than just watching people throw stuff...because they give you more information and are more informed than the average bowler. BUT....like manufacturers....I've never heard a bad online review and rarely seen a video where the ball doesn't strike. The only way they get free balls to throw...is by saying really awesome stuff about the balls they get for free.

6) Ball demos are somewhat meaningful...because it's at least YOU throwing the balls. But....a good bowling ball is a a ball that FITS your hand. Bowling balls at demos rarely "fit" your hand the way they would if you bought them and had them drilled. AND...you have to hope they have the ball you want, in the weight you want, drilled in the way you want....AND....hope they put a fresh pattern down rather than bowl on open bowling conditions.



You should clarify, average bowlers are idiots in your location. You would have a hard time finding anyone in any of the leagues I bowl in who doesn't know a ball has a core.

Actually the PSO who bowls in my league is a good bowler, won PBA events good. Does that mean every ball he suggests is gold, no but he knows balls and how to bowl. Not that your theory has any validity anyway, remember physical talent, you can have great ball knowledge and not be a great bowler.

On-line reviews are slightly more valuable than PS, watching people you bowl with on a regular basis is much more informative than watching Archie and Jughead throw endless strikes.

I don't know what kind of places put on ball demo's near you but I've never seen one done on lanes after open bowling, seriously ?

One of the things that seems to influence your viewpoint is these people you call idiots that are all around you, that might be the case, I don't know maybe they really are, if they aren't the issue could be that you feel superior to everyone for some reason, that can be solved by coming to the Midwest and calling the people around you ignorant and stupid, you will not be happy with the response you get from people.
Are a lot of these stupid people you know high on crack, meth, potheads ?

[RobLV1]

I'm getting REALLY TIRED of all this crap about me having unlimited access to bowling balls. Once again, I PAY FOR EVERY SINGLE BOWLING BALL I THROW. Do I get a discount? Yes. It's the same discount that anyone can get who can join the PBA and pay $25 dues every month. I do not get free balls. I do not get discounts that are not available to every other PBA member on the planet! What I do is to study the core specs. Watch ball reactions from other bowlers who are using a particular ball, and make a decision on a ball that I want to BUY.

[Tony]

I'm getting REALLY TIRED of all this crap about me having unlimited access to bowling balls. Once again, I PAY FOR EVERY SINGLE BOWLING BALL I THROW. Do I get a discount? Yes. It's the same discount that anyone can get who can join the PBA and pay $25 dues every month. I do not get free balls. I do not get discounts that are not available to every other PBA member on the planet! What I do is to study the core specs. Watch ball reactions from other bowlers who are using a particular ball, and make a decision on a ball that I want to BUY.

I think ASLAN is just angry about buying old balls at flea markets and getting old balls that he lashes out at anyone with current bowling balls, and assumes they must have got them somehow for free.....like some other things, it makes no sense to anyone else. BTW, everyone he interacts with in person, on a regular basis, he has deemed stupid, so take that into consideration.

[Aslan]

1) I'll ignore Tony's nonsense...feeding internet trolls is like feeding stray cats.
2) I have NO DOUBT in Rob's reading abilities...but he obviously mis-read my post...as I didn't say he gets unlimited free bowling bowls.

[Tony]

1) I'll ignore Tony's nonsense...feeding internet trolls is like feeding stray cats.
2) I have NO DOUBT in Rob's reading abilities...but he obviously mis-read my post...as I didn't say he gets unlimited free bowling bowls.

How exactly is a discussion thread, if you decide to discount any opinion that you disagree with, perhaps you should have called it ASLAN's arsenal progression directive, either agree with me or I'll ignore you, because I have no logical argument to back up what I want to believe.
I see now how it is you deem everything around you stupid, all it takes is anything you don't agree with, you automatically label it "stupid" and don't have to worry about it any longer. Lets not consider all the facts, just the one's we cherry pick that make it appear that our point is correct, then ignore the people that point out the flaws or questionable logic .....that'll work just fine.....see how nice it's working on this thread, everyone believes every word you've said...SMH

[Amyers]

1)

But again...you and Rob tend to be in the "Candyland" camp....where you're basing that on the assumption that every bowler has access to every bowling ball on the market and can simply go to the lanes....throw every ball...and make a decision. That's NOT an option for 99.999999% of bowlers. The point of a rating system...is to give you some type of data...so you can limit your choices to a certain subset of balls that are most likely to fit your needs.

Absolutely....throwing every new release...drilled to fit your hand...drilled in every possible layout...on conditions you are likely to see on league night would be IDEAL. But, it would also be IMPOSSIBLE.

Like I said when I added my 2 cents....these rating "compromise rating systems" 'can' be misleading...IF you use them by themselves. And...since PerfectScale seems to mirror differential...I'm not sure how valuable it is to consider both of them. On the other hand, as listed above, I think I'd trust PerfectScale or the BTM/Bowling Journal numeric ratings more than I'd trust "Clive McDoodle" who recommends Ball A because it smells like a pomegranate and he once bowled a 250 with it.

.

I don't think I mentioned throwing every ball I was interested in. That's not easily possible. First off I limit myself to only purchasing from 2 family of brands mainly Brunswick family and If they didn't have what I wanted storm family. We have 2 major proshops in the area and one basically sells Brunswick the other Storm they will order the other stuff and a few do but it's mostly those two brands you see on the lanes here. It's harder to see the other stuff roll. When I'm interested in buying a piece I know what I want it to do so I look at cores that are likely to produce the desired motion then strength of cover that I believe from seeing similar balls roll it's not hard to find a couple of people rolling the ball that are somewhat similar to my game to confirm my opinion. by that point I've narrowed the choices down to 2-3 balls. Sometimes its stronger weaker than I expected and have to look at the next option sometimes it's not.

I've told you before if the bowlers on your current leagues suck so bad you need to find different leagues. My mixed Saturday league is somewhat like that (the average bowler isn't good) but even on it there are ten guys and a couple women worth watching. My Wednesday and travel league I can gain info on pretty much any of them. Some bowlers your correct I can't judge much off a two hander or someone that rockets the ball at 20 mph but most I can adjust what they do to what I do.

[Aslan]

I've told you before if the bowlers on your current leagues suck so bad you need to find different leagues. My mixed Saturday league is somewhat like that (the average bowler isn't good) but even on it there are ten guys and a couple women worth watching. My Wednesday and travel league I can gain info on pretty much any of them. Some bowlers your correct I can't judge much off a two hander or someone that rockets the ball at 20 mph but most I can adjust what they do to what I do.

I didn't mean to sound so harsh towards my fellow league bowlers...and it's possible my experiences are not typical of other areas/regions. I've been in 17 leagues since mid-2013...and with the exception of the two sport shot leagues...the make-up has been rather the same...mostly 110-170 average bowlers with about 10 bowlers in the 180-225 range...about 120-170 bowlers total in each league (not counting the two sport shot leagues). So, to ME, I see that as "the usual".

It's also partially why I critiqued Tony's league the way I did. In fairness, I wasn't alone in that critique; but I've never been part of a league where the make-up was any different than what I described above. I'm used to about 30 teams...with about 20 of those teams having an anchor in the 180-225 range...but the vast, vast majority of the leagues are just casual bowlers. It's also why, when I post in the sticky'd thread about what bowling balls are used on a given night...it's never 4-6 players throwing new releases...it's mostly people throwing old urethane and resin balls...I doubt the majority are even fingertip drilled...mostly balls from back in the 90s or early 2000s.

Joining a travel or scratch league would be great...but last time I joined a sport shot league...I wasn't ready for it AND I had to drive 45 minutes to get to the nearest center that offered one. And, until recently, I've not had the skill level to consider joining a scratch or travel league. Even now, most of the scratch leagues are during the morning/afternoon on weekdays...and the travel leagues are almost impossible to find/join unless you know someone already in the league and they invite you.

Maybe things will be different once I move to the Midwest. There are a couple sport/PBA challenge leagues in the Des Moines area so I plan to join a couple house leagues there...see how things go...and if things go smoothly...maybe graduate from handicap house leagues to just bowling in the sport/challenge leagues.

It's one of the main reasons I've discussed/recommended all centers in the United States using USBC Blue, White, or Red patterns. It would be nice to standardize conditions from region to region. The levels I recommended....while almost an impossible suggestion with significant negatives attached....would also fix the problem...of bowling with others of the same skill/experience level.

It doesn't really 'bother' me bowling with primarily casual bowlers. I just compete against the higher average bowlers and measure my game against them...compete against them in sidepots and brackets, etc... But I am at a disadvantage that it isn't as easy (as it may be elsewhere) to get much data from other bowlers...when most of them (league bowlers) are throwing outdated equipment with sub-standard and outdated releases.

[Amyers]

Well with the impending move it probably doesn't matter but there should be some higher level leagues without being sport shot or scratch. Two things I notice here there aren't many newbies around here and the ones that are came up through the youth leagues and are just as good or better than the adults. Not saying there aren't a few we had 2 newbies on one of the teams on Wednesday night.

Probably has to do with this being a smaller area also and smaller leagues. Saturday has 34 but my travel league is 14 and Wednesday is 14 teams. There are only 3 centers within 35 minutes or so and 4 more an hour away or so. Everyone knows everyone so if your putting some money out as a center it doesn't take much for the word to get around. I wouldn't say that everyone has a modern release either some of these people I truly wonder how they can possibly throw the ball like they do and hit anything but every league has their share of those

[Aslan]

@Amyers

I have a 'feeling' that alot of the recent disagreements on the site come from the fact that bowling is so different area to area. You wouldn't "think" so...given it's a round ball on a 60ft lane...gutters on both sides. Seems like the sport is pretty standardized.

But...if you bowl in NY, Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Kansas City...you might have a TON of choices of where to bowl and a good deal of options on leagues. Same thing the Southern California area. Then there are other areas, bigger cities...but less options than you would think. When we did the VBT...I remember being rather surprised how few centers were actually in the San Antonio TX area...given the size of the metropolitan area and how much it's growing. Same thing with places like Phoenix. Then, you have rural areas. I looked at where I used to go to college and there is literally ONE center near the town. Then there is another center an hour away...and another center 30 minutes further (1.5 hours further). My uncle used to drive 45 minutes one way to get to the nearest center.

Then you have very "unique" places...like Detroit....where bowling used to be SO popular...that there are centers everywhere...despite a declining population. And you have a place like Vegas...a city in the middle of the desert...but lots of centers....with lots of lanes. And SoCal is rather unique as well. When I move to Des Moines....there aren't more than 5-7 centers within 45 minutes...the largest one has 24 lanes (many only have 12!)...each center seems to have 3-4 adult leagues. Currently, the smallest center in the area (SoCal) has 32 lanes (one center has 60) and most centers have two large adult leagues per night.

With all the demographic/geographic differences...it's easy to see how in some places, the talented bowlers can be spread out over many centers and in some areas....the better bowlers are concentrated. Vegas, to an outsider, seems like a very unique experience because there doesn't seem to be a ton of interest by casual bowlers....but there are a lot of nice, big centers...because they serve the tourism industry (like most every other business in Vegas). At the same time...I bet there's no area in the country with a greater concentration of higher level bowlers....because it's a tour stop for the USBC Open and the PBA. If someone wants to be a pro bowler...and they can settle down anywhere in the country...I think they tend to gravitate towards either San Antonio (USBC training center) or Vegas...with most choosing Vegas. And it makes sense...because pro bowlers don't make the kind of money they used to...so why pay a ton of travel costs if you don't care where you settle down?

[Amyers]

@Amyers

I have a 'feeling' that alot of the recent disagreements on the site come from the fact that bowling is so different area to area. You wouldn't "think" so...given it's a round ball on a 60ft lane...gutters on both sides. Seems like the sport is pretty standardized.

But...if you bowl in NY, Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Kansas City...you might have a TON of choices of where to bowl and a good deal of options on leagues. Same thing the Southern California area. Then there are other areas, bigger cities...but less options than you would think. When we did the VBT...I remember being rather surprised how few centers were actually in the San Antonio TX area...given the size of the metropolitan area and how much it's growing. Same thing with places like Phoenix. Then, you have rural areas. I looked at where I used to go to college and there is literally ONE center near the town. Then there is another center an hour away...and another center 30 minutes further (1.5 hours further). My uncle used to drive 45 minutes one way to get to the nearest center.

Then you have very "unique" places...like Detroit....where bowling used to be SO popular...that there are centers everywhere...despite a declining population. And you have a place like Vegas...a city in the middle of the desert...but lots of centers....with lots of lanes. And SoCal is rather unique as well. When I move to Des Moines....there aren't more than 5-7 centers within 45 minutes...the largest one has 24 lanes (many only have 12!)...each center seems to have 3-4 adult leagues. Currently, the smallest center in the area (SoCal) has 32 lanes (one center has 60) and most centers have two large adult leagues per night.

With all the demographic/geographic differences...it's easy to see how in some places, the talented bowlers can be spread out over many centers and in some areas....the better bowlers are concentrated. Vegas, to an outsider, seems like a very unique experience because there doesn't seem to be a ton of interest by casual bowlers....but there are a lot of nice, big centers...because they serve the tourism industry (like most every other business in Vegas). At the same time...I bet there's no area in the country with a greater concentration of higher level bowlers....because it's a tour stop for the USBC Open and the PBA. If someone wants to be a pro bowler...and they can settle down anywhere in the country...I think they tend to gravitate towards either San Antonio (USBC training center) or Vegas...with most choosing Vegas. And it makes sense...because pro bowlers don't make the kind of money they used to...so why pay a ton of travel costs if you don't care where you settle down?

I'd say you are correct about this. I've always known that our area is unique in a lot of ways. I lived in St. Louis for a while and even there attitudes about traveling our completely different. When I was in St. Louis I listened to our clients complain that an office 2 interstate exits from them was too far away. Here a 20 minute drive to a store you are interested in is considered normal.

In my area give me $1000 added and 2 weeks I'll have bowlers from all over the state. Give me $2000 and I'll have people from Louisville and Columbus 5 hours away with just a few facebook messages.

[Tony]

I didn't mean to sound so harsh towards my fellow league bowlers...and it's possible my experiences are not typical of other areas/regions. I've been in 17 leagues since mid-2013...and with the exception of the two sport shot leagues...the make-up has been rather the same...mostly 110-170 average bowlers with about 10 bowlers in the 180-225 range...about 120-170 bowlers total in each league (not counting the two sport shot leagues). So, to ME, I see that as "the usual".

It's also partially why I critiqued Tony's league the way I did. In fairness, I wasn't alone in that critique; but I've never been part of a league where the make-up was any different than what I described above. I'm used to about 30 teams...with about 20 of those teams having an anchor in the 180-225 range...but the vast, vast majority of the leagues are just casual bowlers. It's also why, when I post in the sticky'd thread about what bowling balls are used on a given night...it's never 4-6 players throwing new releases...it's mostly people throwing old urethane and resin balls...I doubt the majority are even fingertip drilled...mostly balls from back in the 90s or early 2000s.

Joining a travel or scratch league would be great...but last time I joined a sport shot league...I wasn't ready for it AND I had to drive 45 minutes to get to the nearest center that offered one. And, until recently, I've not had the skill level to consider joining a scratch or travel league. Even now, most of the scratch leagues are during the morning/afternoon on weekdays...and the travel leagues are almost impossible to find/join unless you know someone already in the league and they invite you.

Maybe things will be different once I move to the Midwest. There are a couple sport/PBA challenge leagues in the Des Moines area so I plan to join a couple house leagues there...see how things go...and if things go smoothly...maybe graduate from handicap house leagues to just bowling in the sport/challenge leagues.

It's one of the main reasons I've discussed/recommended all centers in the United States using USBC Blue, White, or Red patterns. It would be nice to standardize conditions from region to region. The levels I recommended....while almost an impossible suggestion with significant negatives attached....would also fix the problem...of bowling with others of the same skill/experience level.

It doesn't really 'bother' me bowling with primarily casual bowlers. I just compete against the higher average bowlers and measure my game against them...compete against them in sidepots and brackets, etc... But I am at a disadvantage that it isn't as easy (as it may be elsewhere) to get much data from other bowlers...when most of them (league bowlers) are throwing outdated equipment with sub-standard and outdated releases.

The thing is in being critical of other leagues you know nothing about, makes it appear you see yourself as superior to all other league bowlers nationwide, in your example you have people using outdated equipment, with conventional grips, and knowing nothing bowling in all leagues. Yes we have those type of leagues, they call them beer , pizza and wings leagues, non sanctioned and for 15 you get bowling plus beer and food.
The other leagues you will find lots of new equipment ( much newer than what you use in fact) and virtually all fingertip grip drilled balls. I only know of one guy who had a conventional grip drilled ball in the whole league. It's common to see several Code Black, Sure Lock, and Timeless on a pair of lanes and see mostly stuff in the new to 3 years old category. The average bowler in the league brings 3 balls.
So just keep in mind when you talk in generalities about specific things in places where you've never been the comments tend to look more foolish than informed.

Considering the fact that the local HS teams have dominated the state championships in the last ten years, last year we had the first, second and fifth place teams, we have had three different schools win the State tournament over the last 5 years. That should at least show that there is some bowling talent in the area, and it's not all easier lane conditions. BTW the guys that coach these teams are all in the same crappy league I'm in.

[Aslan]

@Tony

I see your point...but statistics are statistics. I'm not going to re-litigate the entire issue. If you were in some farm town in South Dakota...and everyone in the State had to bowl at one center because there weren't any other centers...your explanation would make more sense. But you're not in a rural area...there are TON of large population cities in that area...other centers in the same exact area have much lower averages and less honor scores...it just points to the logical conclusion that the center in question has easier conditions. I wasn't the only one that said it at the time you brought it up...I haven't harped on it over and over and over...yet you still bring it up in every thread as if you're waiting for everyone to acknowledge something.

Statistically speaking, it makes far GREATER sense that the center would be easier...than the argument that it just happens to be this rare instance of all the better bowlers showing up at one center...and not at any of the nearby ones...and it's just full of Hall of Famers and future Hall of Famers and everyone is nearly a pro...just some random chance...when there is literally no other example of that anywhere else in the country in places with equal population densities. That doesn't mean you're "wrong"...it just may be a statistical irregularity.

Like I said (three times now)...the only way to prove the statistics wrong would be to try other centers in the area...with lower center averages...and less honor scores...and average the same...and then you'll know I'm "full of it". Until then...it's just your opinion versus statistical evidence...and there's really no need to keep harping on it in every single thread...IMO.

You're correct...my metropolitan area is quite large...and there are lots of centers. That very well could account for why there is a lower "concentration" of talent at a given center. That makes absolute sense. Just like in the point Amyers brought up...if it's a rural center...or a center requiring people drive 45 minutes to bowl...you're going to probably see a higher concentration of talent.

And, like I've said 2-3 times now...I'll be able to test my own theories very soon...when I take my bowling game to a new region and see how leagues look in that new region. And like I've said nearly 100 times...until the USBC actually standardizes lane conditions from region to region...there is never going to be a 1-1 comparison. Right now...it's like if in some areas of the country they use 9ft basketball nets and other areas use 11ft basketball nets...doesn't mean someone scoring 100 points with a 9ft basketball net isn't good at basketball...it's just not possible to make a solid comparison without head-to-head competition in a neutral location.

If I had to say what region puts out the best bowlers...the only way to answer it is the USBC Open (neutral site, neutral conditions)...and based on the leaderboard it looks like Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio seem to be the areas putting out the most winners. Other than that...hard to say.

[Aslan]

And...just to be fair to Tony...

I've been sort of "scouting" leagues in the area I'm moving to...trying to find a "good" handicap league. And I just recently looked at a scoresheet for one of the leagues Im looking at...and literally every single bowler on all but two teams...averages >177. I'd say half the league or more averages 220 or higher.

To me...that's INSANE! It's not a "scratch" league...it's just a handicap league. That seems crazy high to me. I think the lowest average in the ENTIRE LEAGUE...is 150.

So...it may be a learning experience when I get to an area...where maybe there just isn't much participation by lower average bowlers. Maybe the lanes aren't much easier at ALL...it's just that the bowling talent is either higher in that area...and/or there are less lower average bowlers. It'll be interesting to find out.

My "fear"...is that I'm going to join a league in some wood lanes house or something, where there's kind've a "groove" into the pocket...so that if I miss by 4-6 boards right...I still hit the pocket. I'm gonna HATE that! I don't like being rewarded for making 'poo' shots. But I also don't want to get in over my head....like the last time I joined a sport shot league and averaged 139...and if I didn't show up, the team got to use 150 for a vacant spot. There's no point in that.

So...statistics are one thing...but it DOES take actually bowling in different places and on different conditions to truly get a feel for these differences. I'm like most bowlers...I've really only bowled in one area...I don't really know what it's like to bowl in other areas (yet).

[Tony]

And...just to be fair to Tony...

I've been sort of "scouting" leagues in the area I'm moving to...trying to find a "good" handicap league. And I just recently looked at a scoresheet for one of the leagues Im looking at...and literally every single bowler on all but two teams...averages >177. I'd say half the league or more averages 220 or higher.

To me...that's INSANE! It's not a "scratch" league...it's just a handicap league. That seems crazy high to me. I think the lowest average in the ENTIRE LEAGUE...is 150.

So...it may be a learning experience when I get to an area...where maybe there just isn't much participation by lower average bowlers. Maybe the lanes aren't much easier at ALL...it's just that the bowling talent is either higher in that area...and/or there are less lower average bowlers. It'll be interesting to find out.

My "fear"...is that I'm going to join a league in some wood lanes house or something, where there's kind've a "groove" into the pocket...so that if I miss by 4-6 boards right...I still hit the pocket. I'm gonna HATE that! I don't like being rewarded for making 'poo' shots. But I also don't want to get in over my head....like the last time I joined a sport shot league and averaged 139...and if I didn't show up, the team got to use 150 for a vacant spot. There's no point in that.

So...statistics are one thing...but it DOES take actually bowling in different places and on different conditions to truly get a feel for these differences. I'm like most bowlers...I've really only bowled in one area...I don't really know what it's like to bowl in other areas (yet).

I'm not sure what TONS of large population cities is to you, the area I'm in has a main city population of 150,000 with 200,000 more considered part of the metro area.
I personally wouldn't call that large population, nor is it a town of 500 people, so in that case I'm not sure if you're actually looking at score sheets from the correct area.
Aside from that do lanes in your area have beer and pizza leagues ? We have tons of them, none are sanctioned and probably don't show up on your averages for the centers, keep in mind this is where many of the most casual league bowlers bowl, it sounds like those bowlers are intermixed into your regular leagues.
Consider how that accounts for a lot less low average bowlers in the USBC reported leagues totally skewing the number you are relying on to make your determination.
It should all be making sense now, the numbers don't lie, they just don't show the whole picture. The absence of the beer and pizza league bowlers who when I wander through have tons of people with 90 to 140 averages. In fact they kicked a team out of that league last year because they were too good, they had a 180, 2-190, 210 ave bowlers, they are now in my league.
For example on my league there are 20 teams, the beer and pizza league fills the rest of the house 42 lanes, so there are 4 times as many people in the beer and pizza league on that night , and not very many bowlers with high averages in the B&P league
There are more potential factors but that's a huge one that explains why the figures don't actually prove what you think they prove.
I can also tell you a reason there are more honor scores from one center vs another, look at number of games bowled, number of leagues, number of bowlers at that center. The one center is 42 lanes, and hosts several more leagues the next largest is 2-32, then 2 at 24, 1 at 16, 1 at 8.
So just remember before you decide that only the scenario you can see is the only correct one remember that unless you really know all the details, you might not want to profess only a very unlikely scenario could explain things.
For the league you're talking about with half the league at 220 did you look at whats offered for scratch leagues, there are a lot of area's where the scratch leagues suffer and close down leaving the good bowlers in handicap leagues.....
I'm not sure you should be too worried about a wood house being too easy, that's not very typical, and you won't find that many around anyway. FWIW the best way to scout the area is not going to be looking at USBC stat tables and score sheets, find a few guys who are local to the area and have bowled there for years, you'll be amazed how much they know!
If you want to get into a really interesting league that have some called WBWW
women bowling with wine, they get bottles of wine every week, talk about some serious high average bowlers !

[Aslan]

Aside from that do lanes in your area have beer and pizza leagues ? We have tons of them, none are sanctioned and probably don't show up on your averages for the centers, keep in mind this is where many of the most casual league bowlers bowl, it sounds like those bowlers are intermixed into your regular leagues.
Consider how that accounts for a lot less low average bowlers in the USBC reported leagues totally skewing the number you are relying on to make your determination.
It should all be making sense now, the numbers don't lie, they just don't show the whole picture. The absence of the beer and pizza league bowlers who when I wander through have tons of people with 90 to 140 averages.
Thats possible. There are a few sporadic non-sanctioned leagues and "fun leagues" in each center...but very few. Around here, leagues are very large with 150+ bowlers in each league. There are a handful of smaller leagues...mainly 90-140 bowlers...but they can usually only field about 6-8 teams. The first league I bowled in was a non-sanctioned "fun league"...but it had some higher average bowlers in it. I think people who bowled in that league were just "cheap" and preferred the $13 lineage to the $20+ of most sanctioned leagues in the area.


In fact they kicked a team out of that league last year because they were too good, they had a 180, 2-190, 210 ave bowlers, they are now in my league.
Most of the leagues here have average caps. There is one team I know of currently looking for a 140ish average bowler to fill a vacant spot because their team average is too high...and another team where a guy had to bowl with his opposite hand or else his team would have been above the cap.

Around here, folks tend to 'graduate' from handicap to scratch leagues when they get into the 220 average range. If there were more scratch leagues available in the evenings, I think many of the 200+ bowlers would participate. Unfortunately, there are very few...and the ones I know of all are during the morning/day on weekdays...making it difficult to compete in those leagues if you have a standard job and work schedule.


I'm not sure you should be too worried about a wood house being too easy, that's not very typical, and you won't find that many around anyway.
It's highly area dependent. Around here, I can't think of a center with less than 32 lanes...except in a college student union. When I was scouting lanes in the Midwest...only one center had 32 lanes...some had as few as 8...many had 12.


FWIW the best way to scout the area is not going to be looking at USBC stat tables and score sheets, find a few guys who are local to the area and have bowled there for years, you'll be amazed how much they know!
I have the same problem with that concept that I have with asking PSOs what ball to buy. Just about every bowler I've heard talk...believes:
A) Their center is the hardest.
B) There is a center in the area that sucks.

Most of the time, A and B aren't really based on anything tangible...just opinion. Many bowlers have a center they refuse to bowl in for one reason or another. Other bowlers think those same centers are the bee's knees...just depends on the person. All it takes is one bad experience...and suddenly "House X is *** and I'm never bowling there again!"

Instead, I plan to merge my selection system (based on numbers) and your suggestion (based on observations) by simply going and watching some of the leagues when I get there. I also took a look at the USBC Open results...and there are a couple bowlers in the area that performed well at the USBC Open in 2016 and 2017...they both seem to bowl at the same center...maybe there's some value in checking that center out as well. If a center was "easy"...I'd expect bowlers from that center that went to a tournament like the USBC Open to perform poorly. Good performance indicates the bowler(s) have talent. The problem is...those two bowlers have 230 averages at every center they bowl at...hard to differentiate with them.

There are certain centers I'll bypass...like smaller centers with a lot of non-sanctioned leagues or short season leagues...I'm just not a fan of centers that push for non-sanctioned leagues...I don't think it's good for the sport. And, I tend to avoid Bowlmor operated centers due to the questionable business ethics of Bowlmor in general.

And, it may just be trial and error.

Regardless, I just can't understand how a handicap league could have so many bowlers in the 220+ average range. Am I the only one that would consider that "boring"? I realize I'm in the extreme minority considering this topic...and many, many bowlers would rather just go out there and throw the ball wherever and get a 300-game every other week. Striking is FUN! I get that. But what's the point?

I'm not criticizing YOUR (Tony) league per se...God forbid I make that mistake ever again...but if I'm in a league...and I average 229...it's time for me to find a scratch league...find a PBA experience league...going to the USBC Open...and maybe even get my PBA card. Going in every Thursday night and rolling 290-267-256....with an occasional "bad night" of 205-267-193...I just don't see the point of that. At the point you start to lose count of how many 300 rings you have....I mean, you only have ten fingers....how many rings do you need? And what's the point of all those rings if they start become meaningless?

When I played paintball...it was hard. You had to use tactics...you had to be accurate. You were using pump guns with 45 round capacity. Nowadays...you have electronic guns firing at 36 rounds per second. If you have enough money to afford a case of paint per game...you're bound to hit someone if you put that much paint downfield. I guess I'm just hoping bowling doesn't come to that.

But, like I said...I'll find out soon enough...not with numbers or asking Bubba which house is his favorite and hearing which house has the best price on Coor's Light...but by actually seeing first hand.

[Tony]

Thats possible. There are a few sporadic non-sanctioned leagues and "fun leagues" in each center...but very few. Around here, leagues are very large with 150+ bowlers in each league. There are a handful of smaller leagues...mainly 90-140 bowlers...but they can usually only field about 6-8 teams. The first league I bowled in was a non-sanctioned "fun league"...but it had some higher average bowlers in it. I think people who bowled in that league were just "cheap" and preferred the $13 lineage to the $20+ of most sanctioned leagues in the area.


Most of the leagues here have average caps. There is one team I know of currently looking for a 140ish average bowler to fill a vacant spot because their team average is too high...and another team where a guy had to bowl with his opposite hand or else his team would have been above the cap.

Around here, folks tend to 'graduate' from handicap to scratch leagues when they get into the 220 average range. If there were more scratch leagues available in the evenings, I think many of the 200+ bowlers would participate. Unfortunately, there are very few...and the ones I know of all are during the morning/day on weekdays...making it difficult to compete in those leagues if you have a standard job and work schedule.


It's highly area dependent. Around here, I can't think of a center with less than 32 lanes...except in a college student union. When I was scouting lanes in the Midwest...only one center had 32 lanes...some had as few as 8...many had 12.


I have the same problem with that concept that I have with asking PSOs what ball to buy. Just about every bowler I've heard talk...believes:
A) Their center is the hardest.
B) There is a center in the area that sucks.

Most of the time, A and B aren't really based on anything tangible...just opinion. Many bowlers have a center they refuse to bowl in for one reason or another. Other bowlers think those same centers are the bee's knees...just depends on the person. All it takes is one bad experience...and suddenly "House X is *** and I'm never bowling there again!"

Instead, I plan to merge my selection system (based on numbers) and your suggestion (based on observations) by simply going and watching some of the leagues when I get there. I also took a look at the USBC Open results...and there are a couple bowlers in the area that performed well at the USBC Open in 2016 and 2017...they both seem to bowl at the same center...maybe there's some value in checking that center out as well. If a center was "easy"...I'd expect bowlers from that center that went to a tournament like the USBC Open to perform poorly. Good performance indicates the bowler(s) have talent. The problem is...those two bowlers have 230 averages at every center they bowl at...hard to differentiate with them.

There are certain centers I'll bypass...like smaller centers with a lot of non-sanctioned leagues or short season leagues...I'm just not a fan of centers that push for non-sanctioned leagues...I don't think it's good for the sport. And, I tend to avoid Bowlmor operated centers due to the questionable business ethics of Bowlmor in general.

And, it may just be trial and error.

Regardless, I just can't understand how a handicap league could have so many bowlers in the 220+ average range. Am I the only one that would consider that "boring"? I realize I'm in the extreme minority considering this topic...and many, many bowlers would rather just go out there and throw the ball wherever and get a 300-game every other week. Striking is FUN! I get that. But what's the point?

I'm not criticizing YOUR (Tony) league per se...God forbid I make that mistake ever again...but if I'm in a league...and I average 229...it's time for me to find a scratch league...find a PBA experience league...going to the USBC Open...and maybe even get my PBA card. Going in every Thursday night and rolling 290-267-256....with an occasional "bad night" of 205-267-193...I just don't see the point of that. At the point you start to lose count of how many 300 rings you have....I mean, you only have ten fingers....how many rings do you need? And what's the point of all those rings if they start become meaningless?

When I played paintball...it was hard. You had to use tactics...you had to be accurate. You were using pump guns with 45 round capacity. Nowadays...you have electronic guns firing at 36 rounds per second. If you have enough money to afford a case of paint per game...you're bound to hit someone if you put that much paint downfield. I guess I'm just hoping bowling doesn't come to that.

But, like I said...I'll find out soon enough...not with numbers or asking Bubba which house is his favorite and hearing which house has the best price on Coor's Light...but by actually seeing first hand.

One thing to consider about averaging 229, and what you would do .....I know a few of the guys who do average in that range, every single one of them loves to bowl, they all bowl in scratch leagues, but most of them are in 3 to 6 different leagues at different houses, and there are only a few evening scratch leagues, so by default if they want to be in a bunch of leagues they will have to be in handicap leagues as well.

The one fellow that led our league in 300 games has well over 100, he still gets pretty excited to get them, to quote him " It never gets old, I love it "

[Amyers]

And...just to be fair to Tony...

I've been sort of "scouting" leagues in the area I'm moving to...trying to find a "good" handicap league. And I just recently looked at a scoresheet for one of the leagues Im looking at...and literally every single bowler on all but two teams...averages >177. I'd say half the league or more averages 220 or higher.

To me...that's INSANE! It's not a "scratch" league...it's just a handicap league. That seems crazy high to me. I think the lowest average in the ENTIRE LEAGUE...is 150.

So...it may be a learning experience when I get to an area...where maybe there just isn't much participation by lower average bowlers. Maybe the lanes aren't much easier at ALL...it's just that the bowling talent is either higher in that area...and/or there are less lower average bowlers. It'll be interesting to find out.

My "fear"...is that I'm going to join a league in some wood lanes house or something, where there's kind've a "groove" into the pocket...so that if I miss by 4-6 boards right...I still hit the pocket. I'm gonna HATE that! I don't like being rewarded for making 'poo' shots. But I also don't want to get in over my head....like the last time I joined a sport shot league and averaged 139...and if I didn't show up, the team got to use 150 for a vacant spot. There's no point in that.

So...statistics are one thing...but it DOES take actually bowling in different places and on different conditions to truly get a feel for these differences. I'm like most bowlers...I've really only bowled in one area...I don't really know what it's like to bowl in other areas (yet).

Scratch leagues don't exist everywhere my travel league is scratch and I am one of the lower averages in it at 180 something their is a scratch league in Huntington about 45 miles from me that I've never bowled in (synthetic approaches that are always sticky so I don't even go in the door) that's it as far as scratch goes. There are three high money high level handicap leagues in the area where you'll find mostly high average bowlers the rest are a mix. One thing you might help you locate what your looking for check out the prize payouts. If they tend to be more even it's likely not a high level league more top heavy it's likely higher average bowlers.