View Full Version : Aslan's Arsenal Progression Discussion Thread: (Part 3 of 6)
Aslan
05-06-2017, 09:14 PM
I'd like to talk about "How to Create a Bowling Ball Arsenal/Progression".
This will be a Six Part discussion focusing on these topics one at a time:
1) Coverstock (solid, hybrid, pearl)
2) PerfectScale (and other hook measurement tools)
3) Surface
4) Core Symmetry
5) Differential
6) RG
I tried to start with the "simplest" and work towards the more complex.
ASSUMPTIONS
1) Assume you're putting together a 4-5 ball arsenal to allow you to address lane transitions and to allow you versatility to play multiple centers/conditions.
So, to start, what are YOUR THOUGHTS regarding this strategy concerning SURFACE:
Ball #1 (first ball out of bag, fresh conditions, longer patterns, sport patterns, etc...)
Matte or Sanded 360-2000
Ball #2 ("go to ball", ball down option from Ball #1, regular ball, THS ball, etc...)
1000-2000 Sanded
Ball #3 (slightly stronger ball than ball #2 to combat "carrydown", 3rd ball out of the bag, "skid/flip" ball, etc...)
500 (polished)
Ball #4 (dry lane ball, wood lane ball, practice ball, etc...)
2000-4500 (polished)
GUIDELINES
1) Let's try NOT to jump ahead to the other topics. Obviously, bowling balls are complex because there are SO many factors that affect ball movement....but if we can't limit ourselves to just one topic at a time...the dicsucssion will quickly dissolve into generalities about arsenals.
Now...this is probably going to be my LEAST favorite topic...but having this discussion and leaving off SURFACE would be pointless given the many studies done that confirm SURFACE is the #1 impact on ball movement...both in terms of overall hook and where (soon/later) on the lanes the ball actually hooks.
To be honest...just to provide some initial thoughts...I'm not sure it matters much what the surface is for Ball #1 or Ball #2 when we're talking about a THS. If you have even an "average" rev rate/release...I don't really know how someone can use a sanded/matte ball with alot of surface and still be able to carry IF you're playing the track area +/- 2 boards. "Maybe" if you move inside of 15 to start...but I don't a lot of experience starting in that area. I DEFINITELY don't see how someone can start out playing up and in (1-7 boards) with sanded/matte equipment...even with a really high RG. I use a Track 300A as my Ball #4...and it has an RG of 2.58...and a weak, polished cover....and I can't play outside of 10...even with my below average rev rate.
HOWEVER...I am fairly married to the idea that if you are looking for a skid/flip ball...or a dry lane ball...that you almost HAVE TO use a polished ball (I'd also specify a PEARL...not to go back to that topic). Does anyone see a point to using a surfaced ball when you're trying to obtain a skid/flip reaction and/or when playing on drier/wood lanes?
What surfaces do you have on YOUR equipment? How often do you "tweak" them? How many games do you bowl before resurfacing? Do you have your own spinner or do you take the balls to the PSO each time?
NOTES:
- And, we're talking about a THS. Sport conditions...totally different animal. If anyone has experience on sport conditions...maybe you can provide some input. I found that even on shorter sport patterns...polished/high RG equipment sometimes didn't work...because the patterns were shorter...but the oil volume was much heavier or blocked.
- For those reading this who rely a LOT on surface...on a THS....and can't figure out why I wouldn't recommend it; you have to understand the concept of a ball "losing energy". I'm sure many of the folks posting here already grasp that concept...some better than myself...but (as someone who really struggled with the concept early on) if you don't understand the concept...a SURFACE discussion is probably going to be confusing.
RobLV1
05-06-2017, 09:24 PM
Ball #1: Whatever surface you like and a willingness to change it as required for a particular lane condition (or weather condition).
Ball #2: Whatever surface you like and a willingness to change it as required for a particular lane condition (or weather condition).
Ball #3 - Ball #8,437,854: SAME, SAME, SAME!
This part of the thread is ridiculous beyond belief!
Aslan
05-06-2017, 09:25 PM
Comments from previous Thread:
BOWL1820:
Best option on surfaces is to Adjust surface textures as needed during practice/warmup.
ASLAN:
Now I know people talk about changing the surface (so why is surface a factor in the calculation?). And with symmetric core balls I think thats a more successful proposition. But from my limited experience with assymetric core balls (all 3 above are assymetric cores), I've found that adding surface tends to negate the advantages of an assymetric core to at least a degree. If an assymetric core allows a ball to rev up and release energy in a more angular fashion (among other things)...then adding a ton of surface means you're going to try to get it to make that move sooner...but then it doesn't save up as much energy. You could end up throwing a good ball only to have it die out prematurely. I think (theory) thats less of a problem with a symmetric core designed for a smooth arc...sanding it just makes it start the arc sooner. Thats all theory/talking points at this point though.
Another important thing to note...for some of the readers that may not know the rule...one of the limitations of surface changes...is that you cannot legally surface a ball once you've thrown your first shot. This is a big reason why I'm not a fan of buying a bunch of balls with random specs...and using surface changes to separate them from one another. If the lanes start transitioning...and you feel you need a ball with a different surface...it's not an option.
Aslan
05-06-2017, 09:37 PM
Ball #1: Whatever surface you like and a willingness to change it as required for a particular lane condition (or weather condition).
Ball #2: Whatever surface you like and a willingness to change it as required for a particular lane condition (or weather condition).
Ball #3 - Ball #8,437,854: SAME, SAME, SAME!
This part of the thread is ridiculous beyond belief!
Rob....AGAIN...and I added it to the second post I made....you CANNOT....BY RULE...change the surface once you've thrown your first shot. Remember, we're talking about putting an arsenal together. I TOTALLY agree with you on this! Considering surface when SELECTING an arsenal is kind've idiotic....because surface is something that can be changed once you have the balls drilled and are using them. It's why I sort of left it out of the discussion the first time around.
I chose to ADD it this time...because I got a bunch of "guff" initially by people that (and rightfully so) pointed out that surface should be considered because surface is the #1 impact on ball motion.
But, I "think" we agree on this subject...considering surface when selecting an arsenal is rather "pointless"...because you can change it at anytime (if you have the equipment to do so and/or the disposable income to have it changed).
To play Devil's Advocate (Rob's least favorite of my expressions...because he hates Devil's advocates)...
1) If your strategy is to re-surface to account for things you see during league play...USBC rules forbid those changes. So while we can resurface any ball to do anything...we can only do it PRIOR to throwing the first ball.
2) Regarding my question, do you or have you seen a circumstance...where you would want to add surface to a ball when you are trying to create a skid/flip or highly angular reaction down lane? Or...on very dry shots or wood lanes....do you see any value in adding surface to your equipment (other than reducing surface and polishing)?
I didn't even want to talk about SURFACE...because to be it's more of a maintenance item...something you tweak...especially with balls #1 and #2...I feel (and I think you agree) that it's rather inconsequential when selecting a ball. I currently have it in my selection system (that I'm working on/creating)...but I really only concern myself with it regarding Ball #3 and Ball #4....because I see no point in sanding a ball and trying to make it "skid/flip" or sanding a ball to play on drier or wood conditions. It "seems" counter-productive to do that...but I'm willing to hear other people's thoughts on the matter.
bowl1820
05-06-2017, 09:51 PM
Another important thing to note...for some of the readers that may not know the rule...one of the limitations of surface changes...is that you cannot legally surface a ball once you've thrown your first shot.
It's against the rules to alter the ball surface once competition has begun and competition begins when "anyone" throws the first ball for score.
Not when you've thrown your first shot.
I fail to see why you keep mentioning sanding a ball, to enable a skid/flip reaction, are you looking for someone to say yeah, I sanded my ball to make it skid.....
I'm not even sure you're going to find many people who think they can change the surface of a ball during the game, think about this way, the people that are doing their own surface changes and have invested in pads, and or ball spinner and unlikely to be unaware of the rule that doesn't allow surface changes once competition has begun.
The one who had the rule wrong was you, once the first person in your league throws a ball that counts for score, you can't adjust the ball.
I don't see the surface of the ball being a deciding factor, in what ball to purchase, however with all the balls/ surfaces offered it is easier if you get a ball with the surface you are planning to use as the OOB finish, if that's a combination offered, knowing if it's not exactly what you want you can change it.
RobLV1
05-07-2017, 08:47 AM
Surface is the most important factor in ball reaction for the simple reason that it can be changed. You keep referring to the fact that you can't change surface during competition, but how about before competition? My own personal experience is that different bowling centers favor more or less surface. In my own case, I tend to use polish for balls at Red Rock, surface on balls for SunCoast and Gold Coast, polish on the low side at Southpoint, and surface on the high side at South Point. Add to this knowledge of particular pairs of lanes (end pairs are notoriously different than anything else in the house), and weather conditions; high humidity often results in over/under conditions where you have to make a conscious decision whether to play the wet or the dry, and since I usually choose to play the wet, I add surface when it gets humid.
Choosing not to change the surface to maintain some mythical progression is ignoring the most important factor in ball reaction... the one thing that can be easily changed.
Surface is the most important factor in ball reaction for the simple reason that it can be changed. You keep referring to the fact that you can't change surface during competition, but how about before competition? My own personal experience is that different bowling centers favor more or less surface. In my own case, I tend to use polish for balls at Red Rock, surface on balls for SunCoast and Gold Coast, polish on the low side at Southpoint, and surface on the high side at South Point. Add to this knowledge of particular pairs of lanes (end pairs are notoriously different than anything else in the house), and weather conditions; high humidity often results in over/under conditions where you have to make a conscious decision whether to play the wet or the dry, and since I usually choose to play the wet, I add surface when it gets humid.
Choosing not to change the surface to maintain some mythical progression is ignoring the most important factor in ball reaction... the one thing that can be easily changed.
One consideration I would like to mention that is valid for a large number of bowlers, is that in many cases they lack the time / desire or knowledge to change surface's for balls from, place to place, day to day, preferring to leave an OOB finish or adjust a surface to fit their overall need, and then leave it with that finish over a period of time.
While it's certainly possible to learn and make the changes and if done well will yield the best possible results, we should also consider options that don't require that level of commitment to ball maintenance.
There are a lot of bowlers who would rather buy an extra ball or two than mess with making surface adjustments constantly to adjust to playing condition.
bowl1820
05-07-2017, 03:50 PM
One consideration I would like to mention that is valid for a large number of bowlers, is that in many cases they lack
the time
Even with only 10 minutes of warm up, that is more than enough time for making surface adjustments to better match the surface up to the conditions. It only takes a minute or two scuff up a ball.
Polishing would be more time consuming, that's why your kind of better off having your ball being a little shiny coming in the door.
desire
Lack of desire? Sure a lot of players just don't want to be bothered with something else they have to fiddle with. Though lack of knowledge can play into that, because they don't understand the importance of it.
or yes they just don't have that level of commitment to the game. A lot of league bowlers are doing good just to wipe the ball off when they pull it out of the bag and it's all sweating with oil from sitting in the car since last week.
knowledge to change surface's for balls from, place to place, day to day,
Sure lack of knowledge can be a factor, Not knowing what to do and when to do it. Plus fear, A lot of new players are afraid they'll damage the ball in some way, until they learn more about making surface changes.
preferring to leave an OOB finish or adjust a surface to fit their overall need, and then leave it with that finish over a period of time.
Hmm, this is part of the players lack of knowledge. In not understanding how quickly surfaces change with use.
Admittedly if a player only bowls once a week, They could get by without changing surfaces somewhat. Depending on the conditions (If your on dry a lot, then wear will happen much faster than on oil.) and if they are satisfied with the result.
While it's certainly possible to learn and make the changes and if done well will yield the best possible results, we should also consider options that don't require that level of commitment to ball maintenance.
There are a lot of bowlers who would rather buy an extra ball or two than mess with making surface adjustments constantly to adjust to playing condition.
If the player has the money to do that, then that's is a option. Though having several balls doesn't eliminate the need for surface adjustments.
Ultimately it is up to the player, to decide if and when to make surface adjustments. An If they are happy with their balls resulting performance, resultant of that decision.
Even with only 10 minutes of warm up, that is more than enough time for making surface adjustments to better match the surface up to the conditions. It only takes a minute or two scuff up a ball.
Polishing would be more time consuming, that's why your kind of better off having your ball being a little shiny coming in the door.
Lack of desire? Sure a lot of players just don't want to be bothered with something else they have to fiddle with. Though lack of knowledge can play into that, because they don't understand the importance of it.
or yes they just don't have that level of commitment to the game. A lot of league bowlers are doing good just to wipe the ball off when they pull it out of the bag and it's all sweating with oil from sitting in the car since last week.
Sure lack of knowledge can be a factor, Not knowing what to do and when to do it. Plus fear, A lot of new players are afraid they'll damage the ball in some way, until they learn more about making surface changes.
Hmm, this is part of the players lack of knowledge. In not understanding how quickly surfaces change with use.
Admittedly if a player only bowls once a week, They could get by without changing surfaces somewhat. Depending on the conditions (If your on dry a lot, then wear will happen much faster than on oil.) and if they are satisfied with the result.
If the player has the money to do that, then that's is a option. Though having several balls doesn't eliminate the need for surface adjustments.
Ultimately it is up to the player, to decide if and when to make surface adjustments. An If they are happy with their balls resulting performance, resultant of that decision.
I understand the points you make, and they are all valid, however I look back on years and years of league bowling and I can honestly say I've only seen a handful of times where someone was scuffing up a ball during practice, and a few of those times it was me doing it. It just doesn't seem to be a very typical thing to see.
All in all I see many more guys that have adjusted the surface or had the PSO do it to make the ball do what they want, and leave it that way. Of course bowlers on more challenging patterns might be more likely to make changes in practice but that's a much smaller percentage of the players.
I'm not saying it's the preferred way to go, just that in my observation it's not typical to see surface changes being done in practice, so one of the aspects of building an arsenal with that in mind might differ slightly from the ideal, but since it appears to be a common condition it's probably worth inclusion in the discussion or directive depending upon how the thread goes.
bowl1820
05-07-2017, 06:11 PM
I understand the points you make, and they are all valid, however I look back on years and years of league bowling and I can honestly say I've only seen a handful of times where someone was scuffing up a ball during practice, and a few of those times it was me doing it. It just doesn't seem to be a very typical thing to see.
Your right the majority of player's don't adjust surface's during warm up, That's why typically you also have more player's complaining about their ball reaction.
RobLV1
05-07-2017, 07:33 PM
At the risk of raising the dreaded talent vs. knowledge thing, the fact that you rarely see league bowlers adjusting surfaces during practice time speaks volumes, IMHO.
At the risk of raising the dreaded talent vs. knowledge thing, the fact that you rarely see league bowlers adjusting surfaces during practice time speaks volumes, IMHO.
It's both the knowledge required and the extra effort required, there are also the guys that use changes in finger position, or release to adjust to the lane condition, you could argue having the knowledge and ability to make small adjustments with finger position might be more valuable since it's use isn't restricted to only pre-game adjustments.
They might also have balls setup for varied conditions and simply change balls instead of changing surface.
The other thing to consider is it's just a lowly house shot that's relatively forgiving, and stays closer to the same, so surface adjustments have been made, and don't require changing every game.....
Aslan
05-07-2017, 09:22 PM
Just to add my 2 cents...
...it's also a matter of practicality. You only get 10 minutes to throw practice shots. If you have 4-5 bowlers per team and all 8-10 are throwing practice shots...especially when they are throwing 2 balls if they don't strike (sometimes teams do that and sometimes they don't...and for house/fun/handicap leagues nobody really wants to make a stink about it either way...it's possible you only get 1-2 shots per lane in practice. If you're warming up...and your first shot on each lane isn't very accurate or a 'good shot'...then you essentially have one shot per lane to figure out whether you want to add surface or not.
And, like Bowl1820 pointed out earlier regarding adding surface vs. polish...I'm not sure how good a job of surfacing a person can do in the 1 minute between practice ending and the first person takes their shot when you're trying to surface a ball by hand. And, taking away surface (buffing compound, polishing, etc...) by hand I would think would be even more difficult.
I used to carry abralon pads in my bag in case I needed to do something like what everyone is discussing...but I ended up doing more harm than good (I think) because I didn't understand the concept of a ball "burning up/out"...so I was essentially throwing a ball, it was losing energy...but I was seeing it miss right of the headpin and thinking I needed MORE surface....which, you guessed it, led to the ball losing even more energy. I still feel that my biggest weakness (non-physical) is my inability to tell the difference between a ball that misses right because my angle is wrong or the pattern is longer or oil has been pushed down the lanes.......versus the ball burning out and losing energy.
A lot to learn nowadays... :(
JJKinGA
05-08-2017, 08:42 AM
Surface could be about adjusting to the lanes right before competition. It could also be about setting up your arsenal so that each ball fits a role and you know what to grab when the need arises. The other note about surface is that you need to keep it fresh. The ball returns quickly take balls to a fairly uniform roughness, so if you are counting on surface to be the difference maker, you should have any ball resurfaced after use.
Amyers
05-08-2017, 11:09 AM
Something to consider here also is the bag being setup for sport shot tournament play or for THS league? To a certain extent having a balanced bag isn't as necessary with THS. For the most part on THS whatever surfaces fit your game will work I like to be prepared for a tournament or lane machine malfunction myself so I generally try to keep something that will handle a slicker shot (more surface) and something that will handle a dryer shot (less surface in the bag)
You've mentioned skid/flip and surface a few time for that reaction the balls will typically have less surface (3k,4k, polished) but don't necessarily have to be polished. That shot can play very over/under so sometimes a little surface is a blessing. For example the green Quantam from Brunswick and the Ridiculous by radical aren't polished and I think most would agree they fit the bill for that type of reaction.
RobLV1
05-08-2017, 02:31 PM
If you aren't able to get an idea about changing surfaces during ten minutes of practice, you may be looking for the wrong things. The idea is not about getting the ball to the pocket, or even about carrying the corners. The idea is to control the skid/hook/roll phases which you can see on every shot you throw in practice if you know what to look for.
If you aren't able to get an idea about changing surfaces during ten minutes of practice, you may be looking for the wrong things. The idea is not about getting the ball to the pocket, or even about carrying the corners. The idea is to control the skid/hook/roll phases which you can see on every shot you throw in practice if you know what to look for.
Carrying on with that idea what is the range of roll you should be shooting for ? How close to the pocket should your ball be when it stops hooking and goes into a roll.
RobLV1
05-08-2017, 09:41 PM
When the ball first finishes getting into a roll, it is at the peak of it power. I can only speak from what I can estimate from the foul line (which is probably shaded by the fact that I am having cataract surgery next Monday), which looks to be somewhere between 5 and 8 feet from the pins. I don't know of any studies that can prove or disprove that estimate, but that's my best guess.
Aslan
05-09-2017, 12:17 AM
Carrying on with that idea what is the range of roll you should be shooting for ? How close to the pocket should your ball be when it stops hooking and goes into a roll.
I read somewhere, can't remember where, that you want the ball to ideally go from hook to roll phase at the exact same time it hits the pocket. But, have no idea if thats true or not.
I DO remember a teammate...when I first started bowling that was using a Storm Sync. It was back when Storm was just dominating the marketplace. And this guy had a SYNC with what looked like a good deal of surface...a release that was very much up the side of the ball versus behind the ball...bowling on wood lanes...and it seemed to enter the roll phase way, way too early...like 15-20 feet before the pins....enough that it was really noticeable.
At the time, I didn't understand the 3 phases of ball motion so I just kinda watched the ball hook and start rolling and thought, "That's a weird ball motion." I hadn't seen a ball do that before...and I rarely have seen it since.
I don't know much about the topic...but it seems like when I've seen balls that hit the pocket before the ROLL phase...it's usually the high rev players and they end up either striking or leaving weird spare combinations. But, when I see a ball start rolling noticeably early...the ball doesn't seem to have very much power at all and hits like a marshmellow.
Rob mentioned his struggles using Rotogrip balls and I have a very similar opinion. Both Rotogrip balls I've tried to use, the Asylum and Defiant Edge, seem to enter the roll phase really, really early...and just "flop" into the pocket. I thought maybe with the Asylum it was just that I had it drilled wrong...and I had high hopes for the Defiant Edge (because the Defiant series was rather popular)...but it was the same thing. I replaced the Defiant Edge with the Hammer Scandal Pearl and the Scandal Pearl is probably the best ball I've ever thrown and hits like a juggernaut.
I don't really understand "why"...because most bowlers have had a lot of success with Rotogrip....probably the most common ball thrown in this area...and I've gotten more than my fair share of *** whippings by bowlers throwing Hyper Cells. And...I don't really understand how the Scandal Pearl hits so darn hard and makes such an angular motion when it has a relatively lower differntial (compared to my Reax Pearl)...but...that's modern bowling unfortunately. 4-12 "specs" that when all combined...tend to be more confusing than anything.
I was going to go to Part IV: Core Symmetry....and discuss my "Scandal Pearl Phenomenon" there...but this 2nd attempt at talking progression/specs has gone rather "south" compared to what I envisioned...just a really, really confusing topic in a sport where there are SO many different variables and styles and factors....it may be a lost cause trying to put some type of progression/arsenal guide together. :(
When the ball first finishes getting into a roll, it is at the peak of it power. I can only speak from what I can estimate from the foul line (which is probably shaded by the fact that I am having cataract surgery next Monday), which looks to be somewhere between 5 and 8 feet from the pins. I don't know of any studies that can prove or disprove that estimate, but that's my best guess.
After looking a little it appears that almost all references to the length of roll are very vague, so 5 to 8 seems a reasonable starting point.
Re cataract surgery, if you haven't considered it, you might find it's worth looking at some of the advanced lenses available today.
Specifically ReSTOR multifocal lenses, I wore glasses, had just switched to Bi-focals when I had the surgery, my Dr had just started using the advanced lenses a few months before and offered me an opportunity for a small added cost. I went ahead with it knowing it could easily be reversed and a standard lens put back in.
After the surgery it took a few months to get the full effect of the lenses, your brain has to learn to focus on the part of the lenses it needs to, but after it did, it enabled me to see both up close and distance without the need for any glasses at all.
The surgery was 10 years ago, I went to the eye Dr a couple of months ago, my vision is still at the level where I don't need any glasses at all.
Having these lenses has been wonderful and, I would certainly make the same choice again.
One thing to note, they have to do both eyes, a couple of weeks apart.
RobLV1
05-09-2017, 08:13 AM
Thanks for the input re: eyes. According to the eye surgeon, my eyes are pretty strange in that my left eye is fine, 20/25, and does not need surgery. The right eye on the other hand is a mess, and it's the eye where I've always had astigmatism as well. Right now, my left eye focuses at a distance, and my right eye focuses very close up. My close vision has actually improved since the cataract go bad, but my distance vision is all but nonexistent. Because of this divergent vision, for the past few years, I have been unable to line things up straight. When I try to park my car between parallel lines, I get out to find that I am parked at an angle from right to left. You can imagine what this has done to my bowling. I'm having laser surgery with a multi-focal chrystal lens that will also correct the astigmatism. I'm really excited at the prospect of being able to see again!
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