Bruswick Aura Mystic vs. DV8 Grudge Hybrid

[Aslan]

Wondering if anyone has thrown both these balls and can tell me the differences.

The specs seem almost identical other than the OOB surface. The Grudge Hybrid has a slightly higher differential and is a little newer...just wondering how these two behave in relation to one another.

Looking at these two for a future arsenal...had a ball crack on me that I was going to use as my ball down option (from the Aura Mystic)...so I thought the Grudge Hybrid would be a good fit. But the specs make me think these two balls would be either identical or the Grudge might be a little stronger. That would lead me to have to make some slight changes to the drilling layout...and probably manipulate the surfaces. Maybe leave the Mystic at about 2000 sanded...but a 4000 and some royal compound on the Grudge...maybe have the Aura Mystic drilled pin down and the Grudge Hybrid drilled pin-up.

The other would be the 900Global Special Ops I won at the BVL this year...but if I'm gonna go that route...then there's really not much difference between the step down ball (Special Ops) and my dry lanes ball I won here on BB.com in 2015 (Brunswick Gold Rhino Pearl). Both these options are a heck of a step down from the Aura Mystic.

If I DID go with the Mystic as my 1st ball out of the bag...and use the Grudge as a ball down option...would going with a more aggressive drilling layout and a 2000 (no buffing/no polish) surface versus a less aggressive drilling layout and a 4000 buffed (royal compound) surface on the Grudge give me enough separation?

[Amyers]

I haven't owned either but I've seen a lot of Grudge Hybrids and a few Aurora Mystics rolling down the lane my first thought is the Grudge Hybrid is significantly stronger cover. I do worry about some overlap But changing the surface to 2k should make the mystic early enough to be a different motion than the Grudge Hybrid. If I were you I'd drill that Special Ops it will fill the bill as that skid/flip ball you've been wanting. I'm something of an expert on the Gold Rhino and that ball in it's OOB surface simply doesn't work well it's a wet dry nightmare almost everyone that has drilled it nearly junked it. I've had numerous conversations on here with a lot of success about this ball it needs the surface changed to 2k or 3k to work effectively. I could see a really interesting line up of Grudge Hybrid/Gold Rhino at 2 or 3k/Special Ops being a great bag.

[Blacksox1]

Aslan what remains in the closet of destiny ? NIB not craked ?

[JCM]

I threw the grudge hybrid when I was buying my Scandal Pearl. Came down to those two, but I liked the Scandal Pearl a little better. The hybrid was great though, mixed up pins like nothing I'd seen.

[Aslan]

my first thought is the Grudge Hybrid is significantly stronger cover. I do worry about some overlap
That's what I'm afraid of. The Grudge Hybrid is DV8 and it's 3 years newer in terms of technology. That leads me to believe it's going to have a stronger reaction...which is not really what I want out of by ball down, ball #2 option.

However...I could change my strategy...go for more of a slight move 'inside'...using the "walled oil theory" where instead of balling down to stay on a burnt line...you move slightly inside with a slightly stronger ball to play where some of the oil has been pushed. But I'm just worried I'd end up having two balls that end up being exactly the same...which is pointless and puts me at a disadvantage.


But changing the surface to 2k should make the mystic early enough to be a different motion than the Grudge Hybrid.
Not a huge fan (as you know) of messing too much with the surface...God forbid my spinner goes down. But I figure if I leave the Mystic at 2000 matte...no buffing and no polish....and surface the Grudge Hybrid to 4000, then buff it with factory compound...but no polish...that 'might' give me a little room between the two.

I can also drill the Mystic pin down...use drilling layouts to maximize how early it hooks...drill the Grudge Hybrid more of a pin-up...to give it a little more length...that might help as well.

Just not sure if it's gonna be enough...


If I were you I'd drill that Special Ops it will fill the bill as that skid/flip ball you've been wanting.
That spot is currently being occupied by the Fortera Exile. I know the Exile hasn't got overly warm reviews...but neither did the Reax Pearl and it's been a great ball for me. So, I'm looking forward to giving the Exile a shot.

I mainly use my "skid/flip" ball to battle carrydown...so if I end up moving to more competitive leagues with less people throwing plastic/urethane all over the place...it might not be a ball that gets used very often.


I'm something of an expert on the Gold Rhino and that ball in it's OOB surface simply doesn't work well it's a wet dry nightmare almost everyone that has drilled it nearly junked it. I've had numerous conversations on here with a lot of success about this ball it needs the surface changed to 2k or 3k to work effectively.
I've paid attention to alot of your opinions on this ball....knowing that it may someday be in my bag (if it doesn't crack first).

The 'good' news...is it really is only a replacement for my Track 300A...a ball I only throw on burnt conditions and in practice on burnt lanes...or on dry wood lanes. It certainly isn't nearly as weak as the 300A...but if it's too strong...I can always change my progression a bit...use it as a #3 option between the Grudge Hybrid and Fortera Exile. If it's crazy weak...then it's no worse than the 300A...and it rarely get's used.


I could see a really interesting line up of Grudge Hybrid/Gold Rhino at 2 or 3k/Special Ops being a great bag.
I really wanna use the Mystic and the Exile. I just need to find a ball to bridge the gap between fresh conditions and carrydown conditions. I don't think the Gold Rhino is strong enough. The Special Ops is only a better option IF you believe a Hybrid cover by 900 Global is going to hook earlier than the Pearl cover by Brunswick AND/OR you believe the Special Ops being 1.5 years newer is going to cause it to be stronger. Both have identical RGs.

I was planning on using the Grudge Hybrid/Special Ops in the 2019 arsenal...but my 900 Global "The Nuts" cracked...which I was really interested in...so now I need to fill that gap. :(

Also had a Track 706A (16lbs) I was looking forward to using to replace the 300A for this fall...but it cracked... :(


Aslan what remains in the closet of destiny ? NIB not craked ?
- 16lb Ebonite Warning Sign (Fall 2017 arsenal, replacing Ebonite Innovate)
- 16lb DV8 Thug Life (Fall 2017 arsenal, replacing Radical Reax Pearl)

- 15lb Brunswick Aura Mystic (Fall 2018 arsenal, replacing DV8 Thug Life)
- 15lb DV8 Grudge Hybrid (Fall 2018 arsenal, replacing Ebonite Warning Sign)
- 15lb Brunswick Gold Rhino Pearl (Fall 2018 arsenal, replacing Track 300A)
- 15lb Brunswick Fortera Exile (Fall 2018 arsenal, replacing Hammer Scandal Pearl)

- 15lb 900 Global Special Ops (Fall 2019 arsenal, replacing DV8 Grudge Hybrid)
- 15lb Storm Optimus Solid (Fall 2019 arsenal, replacing Brunswick Aura Mystic)

[Amyers]

That's what I'm afraid of. The Grudge Hybrid is DV8 and it's 3 years newer in terms of technology. That leads me to believe it's going to have a stronger reaction...which is not really what I want out of by ball down, ball #2 option.

I have no doubt that the Grudge Hybrid is the stronger of the 2 balls it's been a while since I've seen the Aurora line in action but I don't believe being aggressive (especially the Mystic) was one of my thoughts about it.


Not a huge fan (as you know) of messing too much with the surface...God forbid my spinner goes down. But I figure if I leave the Mystic at 2000 matte...no buffing and no polish....and surface the Grudge Hybrid to 4000, then buff it with factory compound...but no polish...that 'might' give me a little room between the two.

The bigger question is does the mystic perform well drilled and surfaced like that idk.


The 'good' news...is it really is only a replacement for my Track 300A...a ball I only throw on burnt conditions and in practice on burnt lanes...or on dry wood lanes. It certainly isn't nearly as weak as the 300A...but if it's too strong...I can always change my progression a bit...use it as a #3 option between the Grudge Hybrid and Fortera Exile. If it's crazy weak...then it's no worse than the 300A...and it rarely get's used.


The problem is at its OOB surface the balls a wet/dry nightmare flys off the dry on one shot gets hung up in the oil on the next one.

Introducing the Exile into the discussion makes the problem worse. you've got overlap with the Mystic there on that one too. The Exile was Brunswicks attempt to do something they don't do well as in building an asymmetric skid/flip long running backend ball it didn't work as usual for them. The exile is the weakest ball in this bag it's not bad don't get me wrong. My coach actually really likes it but it's not a stand left throw right kind of ball it's a step down keep the ball in front of you kind of ball.


I really wanna use the Mystic and the Exile. I just need to find a ball to bridge the gap between fresh conditions and carrydown conditions. I don't think the Gold Rhino is strong enough. The Special Ops is only a better option IF you believe a Hybrid cover by 900 Global is going to hook earlier than the Pearl cover by Brunswick AND/OR you believe the Special Ops being 1.5 years newer is going to cause it to be stronger. Both have identical RGs.

I was planning on using the Grudge Hybrid/Special Ops in the 2019 arsenal...but my 900 Global "The Nuts" cracked...which I was really interested in...so now I need to fill that gap.

Also had a Track 706A (16lbs) I was looking forward to using to replace the 300A for this fall...but it cracked...



Of all the balls you have the mystic and exile are probably the closest together in reaction. Personally I wouldn't put them together in the same bag. As far as just putting something together that makes sense numbers wise you could bring the Optimus solid out and it would fit unfortunately it is the worst balls storm has made in the last ten years and easily isn't worth the cost of putting holes in. Too much there that fits the same spot on lane.

[Aslan]

I have no doubt that the Grudge Hybrid is the stronger of the 2 balls it's been a while since I've seen the Aurora line in action but I don't believe being aggressive (especially the Mystic) was one of my thoughts about it.
It's an assymetric hybrid by Brunswick...so it should hook earlier. It also has a < 2.49 RG. Add to that a 0.052 differential and a 226.88 PerfectScale...just about every spec leads to the conclusion that this could be a very strong ball. It's also from the Aura line....which was a very successful line for Brunswick that preceeded their Mastermind series.

BUT...you're right....the DV8 brand tends to be a little stronger...and the Grudge Hybrid has a higher differential (0.056) and a PerfectScale rating of 232.00. That's a VERY high differntial...the highest PerfectScale rating of any ball I've ever owned...and it's 3 years newer in terms of technology. That's why I'm so concerned. Looking at the ball reaction videos...it looks like the Aura Mystic is 1-2 boards stronger...but I'm not sure I buy that.

The problem is...if I save the Grudge Hybrid for later...and use the Special Ops as the ball down option...that's a BIG difference. The Special Ops is 900Global...it's a 2.52 RG...and a 182.3 PerfectScale rating. That puts me in the place I'm in now...where my ball down option (going by the specs) is a LOT weaker. If I wanted to stick with the "stay in one area" strategy...I'd almost have to dummy down the Mystic...and use the Gold Rhino Pro...do more of a 4-ball progression than a 3-ball. I dunno.


The bigger question is does the mystic perform well drilled and surfaced like that idk.
Yeah...thats the worry with a Brunswick ball...they hook early by nature...adding surface might not make it much of an option...unless I encounter some higher volume, longer, or sport conditions.


The problem is at its (Gold Vintage Rhino Pro) OOB surface the balls a wet/dry nightmare flys off the dry on one shot gets hung up in the oil on the next one.
I'm not too worried about that. The Melee Jab had the same problem and it's probably my favorite ball I've ever used...probably second favorite if you consider the Scandal Pearl I'm using now. So, it might not be a "bad" thing for me. On the other hand, the Innovate also has that tendency...and I'm not doing as well with that ball as I'd like.


Introducing the Exile into the discussion makes the problem worse. you've got overlap with the Mystic there on that one too.
The Fortera Exile has a lower differential (0.050), a higher RG (2.512), and it's a polished pearl. If the Aura Mystc is hybrid with a 0.052 differential and a 2.481 RG...and I surface it to 2000 matte...I'm not too concerned these balls will overlap. More concerned the Grudge Hybrid and Aura Mystic will overlap...OR...if I dummy down the surface and drilling on the Grudge Hybrid (pin up, 4000 buffed)...that the Grudge Hybrid might be too close to the Exile...although I think the 4000 buffed won't "skid/flip" (angular) the way the Exile's 500/buffed/polished surface will.


The Exile was Brunswicks attempt to do something they don't do well as in building an asymmetric skid/flip long running backend ball it didn't work as usual for them. The exile is the weakest ball in this bag it's not bad don't get me wrong. My coach actually really likes it but it's not a stand left throw right kind of ball it's a step down keep the ball in front of you kind of ball.
Like I said above...it's specs are quite strong. And, it's role will be limited to replacing the Scandal Pearl. The Exile has a slightly higher RG...which I think is the problem with it. It seems like the good skid/flip balls tend to have really low RGs, and really high differentials. But's it's a 500 surface with a polished pearl cover and an assymetric core with a higher differential than the Scandal Pearl...so it has promise (on paper).

Like I said before...the Reax Pearl had a very bad reputation...even worse than the Brunswick Fortera line...and it works great for me. And the Rotogrip Defiant Edge...the Defiant series was one of Rotogrip's most successful lines...the one that preceded their Hyper Cell line...and it performed so badly for me...that I had to spend $275 to buy and drill the Scandal Pearl after only using the Defiant Edge for a few months. Ball popularity just tends to be a "poo"shoot at the end of the day. RobM and I disagree on balls like the Reax and the Exile...RobM hated the Melee Jab and gave it to me and I loved it...RobM didn't like the Deadly Aim but Iceman loves it...yet RobM and I agree regarding Rotogrip...that we just can't seem to make them work for us.


Of all the balls you have the mystic and exile are probably the closest together in reaction. Personally I wouldn't put them together in the same bag.
Like I said...if I make the surface adjustments...I think there will be some decent separation. With OOB surfaces...maybe not as much.


As far as just putting something together that makes sense numbers wise you could bring the Optimus solid out and it would fit unfortunately it is the worst balls storm has made in the last ten years and easily isn't worth the cost of putting holes in. Too much there that fits the same spot on lane.
The Optimus Solid just seems like a weaker version of the Aura Mystic. I was hoping to use it in the next arsenal....Optimus Solid, Grudge Hybrid, ???, ???. BUT...if I use the Grudge Hybrid with this coming arsenal...the Special Ops is probably a better fit to compliment the Optimus Solid. A Optimus Solid/Special Ops #1/#2 ball would definitely be a weaker pair than Aura Mystic/Grudge Hybrid....but I'm hoping by then my release improves and gets stronger.

[RobLV1]

Why do you insist on looking at the "Perfect Scale" ratings? They are as imperfect as anything can be!

[Aslan]

Why do you insist on looking at the "Perfect Scale" ratings? They are as imperfect as anything can be!

It's just one factor. Are there any "perfect bowling ball specifications/ratings"? Some specs argueably don't even mean anything...a half step above fragarance and/or color...

[bowl1820]

It's just one factor. Are there any "perfect bowling ball specifications/ratings"? Some specs argueably don't even mean anything...a half step above fragarance and/or color...

The only ball "specifications" that would ultimately really mean anything, are the ones that are actual measurements of the balls physical properties. Such as RG, Differential, Intermediate Differential, Coefficient of Friction, Coefficient of Restriction etc.

Ratings provided by companies and even the bowling magazines, like Hook, Backend, Length, the Perfect Scale are ultimately nothing but opinions based on tenuous criteria that varies from company to company and the Tester/Raters opinion which can be subjective and not consistent.

[Amyers]

BUT...you're right....the DV8 brand tends to be a little stronger...and the Grudge Hybrid has a higher differential (0.056) and a PerfectScale rating of 232.00. That's a VERY high differntial...the highest PerfectScale rating of any ball I've ever owned...and it's 3 years newer in terms of technology. That's why I'm so concerned. Looking at the ball reaction videos...it looks like the Aura Mystic is 1-2 boards stronger...but I'm not sure I buy that.

If the Aurora OOB is stronger than the Grudge Hybrid OOB I'll eat my hat. From what I remember of the Aura series they were very even hooking arc type of rolls. The Rg and differential aren't that different the Grudge Hybrid has a stronger cover at the end of the day the Grudge will be the stronger of the two balls OOB anyway.


I'm not too worried about that. The Melee Jab had the same problem and it's probably my favorite ball I've ever used...probably second favorite if you consider the Scandal Pearl I'm using now. So, it might not be a "bad" thing for me. On the other hand, the Innovate also has that tendency...and I'm not doing as well with that ball as I'd like.

The Melee Jab and the Gold Rhino are nothing alike. Different cores and covers. The issue for me with the Melee line has always been the low RG and the ball hooking to early just a by product of my lower speed and low rg cores. The Gold Rhino has the opposite problem. Again the Scandal Pearl is a different beast more similar in some ways to the Jab but because of the strong cover not the core the Gold Rhino problem is getting into it's motion not it hooking early.


Like I said above...it's specs are quite strong. And, it's role will be limited to replacing the Scandal Pearl. The Exile has a slightly higher RG...which I think is the problem with it. It seems like the good skid/flip balls tend to have really low RGs, and really high differentials. But's it's a 500 surface with a polished pearl cover and an assymetric core with a higher differential than the Scandal Pearl...so it has promise (on paper).

Well the Scandal Pearl isn't a skid/flip ball anyway but if there is a ball more completely unsuited for replacing the Scandal Pearl if that's the motion your looking for than the Exile I'm not sure what it would be maybe a Tropical Breeze. It's not a bad ball but understand it wont handle the oil the Scandal Pearl will, it won't have the mid lane read the scandal does and will hook less on the backend than the scandal does. if you change the surface on the Gold Rhino the Exile is probably the least aggressive ball in this bag


Like I said before...the Reax Pearl had a very bad reputation...even worse than the Brunswick Fortera line...and it works great for me. And the Rotogrip Defiant Edge...the Defiant series was one of Rotogrip's most successful lines...the one that preceded their Hyper Cell line...and it performed so badly for me...that I had to spend $275 to buy and drill the Scandal Pearl after only using the Defiant Edge for a few months. Ball popularity just tends to be a "poo"shoot at the end of the day. RobM and I disagree on balls like the Reax and the Exile...RobM hated the Melee Jab and gave it to me and I loved it...RobM didn't like the Deadly Aim but Iceman loves it...yet RobM and I agree regarding Rotogrip...that we just can't seem to make them work for us.


It depends the original "problem" with the Reax Pearl was it was earlier than bowlers believed it should be from a "pearl" ball. If you don't understand bowling balls it's easy to be surprised. The Deadly Aim wasn't unpopular Rob just didn't like it as was the case with the Melee Jab he gave you. The Melee line was quite popular and why it's been brought back by Brunswick under the Edge name. The Exile was vastly less popular than any of these balls because it's problems were different it simply didn't do what Brunswick said it would. Bottom price I seen on the Reax was $99 as far as I seen the Exile could be had for $49 especially surprise since the Exile was way more $ to begin with.

The Exile is a light to medium oil ball that offers little recovery if missed right not the "ball that covers more boards on the backend than any Brunswick ball we've made" as they advertised it. The Exile has neither the early mid lane read you get from the scandal or the backend flip you'd get from pretty much any other ball. If you go in believing anything else you'll be disappointed.


Like I said...if I make the surface adjustments...I think there will be some decent separation. With OOB surfaces...maybe not as much.


I agree


The Optimus Solid just seems like a weaker version of the Aura Mystic. I was hoping to use it in the next arsenal....Optimus Solid, Grudge Hybrid, ???, ???. BUT...if I use the Grudge Hybrid with this coming arsenal...the Special Ops is probably a better fit to compliment the Optimus Solid. A Optimus Solid/Special Ops #1/#2 ball would definitely be a weaker pair than Aura Mystic/Grudge Hybrid....but I'm hoping by then my release improves and gets stronger.


The Optimus Solid has so little in common with the Aura Mystic it's not even funny. The Optimus Solid was so bad Storm offered them to proshops at buy any other ball get 4 free Optimus Solids lol. The Optimus was ok but tended to roll early in a polished pearl so Storm decided to put a Solid at 2k grit on the ball and sell it. It's way earlier than the Mystic will ever be at any surface.

[Aslan]

The only ball "specifications" that would ultimately really mean anything, are the ones that are actual measurements of the balls physical properties. Such as RG, Differential, Intermediate Differential, Coefficient of Friction, Coefficient of Restriction etc.

Ratings provided by companies and even the bowling magazines, like Hook, Backend, Length, the Perfect Scale are ultimately nothing but opinions based on tenuous criteria that varies from company to company and the Tester/Raters opinion which can be subjective and not consistent.
Like I said, "ratings" are just one of many factors to consider.

I'd LOVE to rely solely on specifications in my opinions...but thus far, even on this site of higher level, well-informed experts...we can't come to any real, solid conclusions about what those specifications really mean. Every attempt at nailing down those answers....has led to just as many more questions.

[Aslan]

Well the Scandal Pearl isn't a skid/flip ball anyway
Bowlingball.com disagrees:
The unbelievable hook from the original scandal is back - this time with the Semtex Pearl CFI coverstock to allow for a skid/flip reaction when the lanes begin to break down.

Hammer bowling products also disagrees:
Chemical friction, blah, blah. We got your friction! Our new Semtex Pearl CFI cover puts the flip in skid/flip.


...if you change the surface on the Gold Rhino the Exile is probably the least aggressive ball in this bag
I'd actually agree with that. It's a pearl cover with a higher RG than the Mystic and the Grudge...so it'll likely go longer than both...before and/or after surface adjustments. That's the hope anyways. If it were more aggressive....I wouldn't slate it in the #3 spot.


The Exile was vastly less popular than any of these balls because it's problems were different it simply didn't do what Brunswick said it would.
I agree with that. RobM has talked about this a bit. Brunswick tends to make balls that hook very early...and I don't think they've mastered the "skid/flip" movement. That's why I was initially attracted to the Exile...seemed like Brunswick's best attempt.


The Optimus Solid has so little in common with the Aura Mystic it's not even funny. The Optimus Solid was so bad Storm offered them to proshops at buy any other ball get 4 free Optimus Solids lol. The Optimus was ok but tended to roll early in a polished pearl so Storm decided to put a Solid at 2k grit on the ball and sell it. It's way earlier than the Mystic will ever be at any surface.
Well, thats good...because as the first ball out of my bag...I want it to be a ball that will hook the soonest.

As you know, I've really tended to throw only pearls. I've only thrown a few solids. The Lethal Revolver was a great solid cover ball for me. The Hammer Rhythm was a decent ball as well. The Columbia300 Dark Encounter was rather disappointing. Since I don't tend to see a great deal of oil volume or length outside of Vegas...I've sort of needed balls that will go longer...not hook earlier.

However, RobM (and you to a lesser extent) has often tried to convince me to expand my arsenal a bit and try to move inside a bit more. In order to that, besides trying to find conditions where that's more of a reality, I need to start experiencing with hybrids and solids and balls with more surface....and more separation from one ball to another. The Optimus Solid 'should' behave a lot like my Hammer Rhythm behaved. A solid ball...with a matte surface...and a symmetric core...should be a smooth, controllable arc.

BUT...I threw the Rhythm was 16lbs and back when I was primarily using a suitcase style release with barely over 200rpms and 17-19mph at the pins. Now I'm getting closer to 300rpms and 15-16mph at the pins...it's 15lbs...so I'm definitely going to need to move in more than I did back in 2013. I'm hopeful because of how well I threw the Lethal Revolver (2015)...that maybe the Optimus Solid will behave in a similar fashion. But, we'll see. Might need to rely on the Special Ops a lot more than I want to if the Optimus Solid doesn't work out.

[Amyers]

Bowlingball.com disagrees:
The unbelievable hook from the original scandal is back - this time with the Semtex Pearl CFI coverstock to allow for a skid/flip reaction when the lanes begin to break down.

Hammer bowling products also disagrees:
Chemical friction, blah, blah. We got your friction! Our new Semtex Pearl CFI cover puts the flip in skid/flip.

Well compared to the original Scandal it is skid flip but I could say compared to the original scandal your Reax Pearl is skid/flip too.

You cut out the rest of the review their bud.

Semtex Pearl CFI cover has perfectly bonded together mid lane control with unmatched back end angularity. Get ready to create a Scandal.*


You can't have midlane control I.e. read and be overly skid flippy it's typical ball review double speak. I'm not saying the ball doesn't have a nice back end motion it does but when I'm thinking of a true skid/flip reaction I'm looking at something like your Special Ops, Code Black, Ridiculous Pearl type of reaction



I'd actually agree with that. It's a pearl cover with a higher RG than the Mystic and the Grudge...so it'll likely go longer than both...before and/or after surface adjustments. That's the hope anyways. If it were more aggressive....I wouldn't slate it in the #3 spot.

I think your misunderstanding what I mean by less aggressive. You have the Scandal Pearl in your bag in your 3 spot currently not an unaggressive ball. The Exile isn't less aggressive in just the front of the lane it's less aggressive period. Front to back.



I agree with that. RobM has talked about this a bit. Brunswick tends to make balls that hook very early...and I don't think they've mastered the "skid/flip" movement. That's why I was initially attracted to the Exile...seemed like Brunswick's best attempt.


The Exile wasn't their best attempt just a failed one. The Mastermind Brainiac, any of the Quantams, Heck the Jab were all way better than the Exile.



Well, thats good...because as the first ball out of my bag...I want it to be a ball that will hook the soonest.

As you know, I've really tended to throw only pearls. I've only thrown a few solids. The Lethal Revolver was a great solid cover ball for me. The Hammer Rhythm was a decent ball as well. The Columbia300 Dark Encounter was rather disappointing. Since I don't tend to see a great deal of oil volume or length outside of Vegas...I've sort of needed balls that will go longer...not hook earlier.

However, RobM (and you to a lesser extent) has often tried to convince me to expand my arsenal a bit and try to move inside a bit more. In order to that, besides trying to find conditions where that's more of a reality, I need to start experiencing with hybrids and solids and balls with more surface....and more separation from one ball to another. The Optimus Solid 'should' behave a lot like my Hammer Rhythm behaved. A solid ball...with a matte surface...and a symmetric core...should be a smooth, controllable arc.

BUT...I threw the Rhythm was 16lbs and back when I was primarily using a suitcase style release with barely over 200rpms and 17-19mph at the pins. Now I'm getting closer to 300rpms and 15-16mph at the pins...it's 15lbs...so I'm definitely going to need to move in more than I did back in 2013. I'm hopeful because of how well I threw the Lethal Revolver (2015)...that maybe the Optimus Solid will behave in a similar fashion. But, we'll see. Might need to rely on the Special Ops a lot more than I want to if the Optimus Solid doesn't work out.

The optimus solid rolls out early trying to play outside and hooks to early to play inside well. It has very little in common with any of those balls you mentioned having success with.

[Aslan]

You cut out the rest of the review their bud.

Semtex Pearl CFI cover has perfectly bonded together mid lane control with unmatched back end angularity. Get ready to create a Scandal.*

Well, I assumed you were just going to point out that all of that type of text is meaningless marketing junk. You went another direction and quoted the rest of their meaningless marketing junk.


You can't have midlane control I.e. read and be overly skid flippy it's typical ball review double speak. I'm not saying the ball doesn't have a nice back end motion it does but when I'm thinking of a true skid/flip reaction I'm looking at something like your Special Ops, Code Black, Ridiculous Pearl type of reaction
I've never seen a true "angular. skid/flip" ball. I think the reason for that is that to make a ball truly skid/flip or truly angular...you need to also have a certain and specific speed/release combo.

You're right...the Scandal Pearl isn't a true "skid/flip" ball...and I (as a spec purist) would say thats because it's a symmetric core with a lower differential. The more assymetric and more powerful the core....the more likely it can change direction quickly and power in the new direction.




I think your misunderstanding what I mean by less aggressive. You have the Scandal Pearl in your bag in your 3 spot currently not an unaggressive ball. The Exile isn't less aggressive in just the front of the lane it's less aggressive period. Front to back.
Well, my #3 spot is actually the second most aggressive ball. It's the ball that is usually the most "skid/flip" and strong enough to deal with the carrydown that often exists in house leagues where bowlers aren't all throwing reactive resin equipment...spraying and praying, etc...

The trick in my future arsenal (and why I'm asking these questions and we're having this discussion) is that I'll be trying to slate the Grudge Hybrid in the #2 spot...which is historically where I'd slate my least aggressive, "ball-down" ball. However, in THIS situation...the Grudge Hybrid is arguably the strongest of the 3 balls...for all the reasons we've discussed. That means I either need to "re-shuffle" my progression...maybe switch the Aura and Grudge...or I need to "dummy down" the Grudge using drilling and surface adjustments to allow it to be a "ball down option".


The Exile wasn't their best attempt just a failed one. The Mastermind Brainiac, any of the Quantams, Heck the Jab were all way better than the Exile.
I've never seen anyone throw a Brainiac, Heck, or any of the Quantums. The Jab seemed somewhat "skid/flippy"...but it was limited by it's weaker, symmetric core. It was actually a quite "smooth" ball. It's only problem was once it got down-lane...it sometimes would "jump around"...it was "jumpy". I'm not sure if that's what RobM took issue with the ball...or if it was something else.


The optimus solid rolls out early trying to play outside and hooks to early to play inside well. It has very little in common with any of those balls you mentioned having success with.

Well...and this is going to sound argumentatve more so than I mean it...but thats because you put virtually no weight on actual specs.

SPECS:
Hammer Rhythm: symmetric core, solid cover, 2.50 RG, 0.040 diff., 211 PerfectScale.
Brunswick Lethal Revolver: symmetric core, solid cover, 2.52 RG, 0.054 diff., 209.5 PerfectScale.
Columbia300 Dark Encounter: assymetric core, solid cover, 2.50 RG, 0.052 diff., 209.9 PerfectScale.
Storm Optimus Solid: symmetric core, solid cover, 2.48 RG, 0.048 diff., 216.3 PerfectScale.

From a SPEC perspective...the main difference I see between the Optimus Solid and the other balls (particularly the Rhythm and Le. Revolver I had some success with... not so much with the D. Encounter)....is the Optimus Solid has a very low RG. The Rhythm had a 2.50...not super-low...but the Rhythm had a low differential as well...it was a very "smooth", arcing ball. The Lethal Revolver was stronger...and a little more angular...but it had a more moderate RG and a higher differential to give it some downlane power.

The Optimus Solid seems, like you said, to have the risk of rolling out very early...and it's differential is rather low. The only time I've seen that combination work well (for me) is the Scandal Pearl...which is obviously a different beast altogether...being a polished pearl. Would the Optimus Solid work well if you surfaced it to 1000 abralon, put Storm Step 3 buff on it, then hit it with polish?? Maybe.

Like I said, I haven't had a lot of success with solids or hybrids or balls with a lot of surface...haven't had a lot of success with Rotogrip...which might also apply to Storm and 900Global...but I'm willing to keep giving them a try. Regardless of what RobM thinks...I actually WOULD like to someday be able to play multiple lines on the lanes...and thats going to require a more diverse arsenal than what I'm using now and will be using this fall/winter.

[bowl1820]

I think the reason for that is that to make a ball truly skid/flip or truly angular...you need to also have a certain and specific speed/release combo.


Which is pretty much what has always been said in other posts about skid/flip balls.

The specs don't automatically make a ball skid/flip, they just show you which balls tend to lend themselves better to producing skid/flip reactions, when combined with the bowlers release, layout etc.

You just can't use specs to pigeon hole balls into rigid categories.

[Amyers]

Well, I assumed you were just going to point out that all of that type of text is meaningless marketing junk. You went another direction and quoted the rest of their meaningless marketing junk.


I believe I called it typical ball review double speak lol

I've never seen a true "angular. skid/flip" ball. I think the reason for that is that to make a ball truly skid/flip or truly angular...you need to also have a certain and specific speed/release combo.


You're right...the Scandal Pearl isn't a true "skid/flip" ball...and I (as a spec purist) would say thats because it's a symmetric core with a lower differential. The more assymetric and more powerful the core....the more likely it can change direction quickly and power in the new direction.

It's not really the differential or anything to do with the core maybe a little higher RG would make it more so but it's the cover if a cover get too strong the ball reads early which saps it of the ability to make that sideways turn. Not that having a complete sideways reaction is a necessarily that great of a thing as it can be hard to control and lead to splits.

It does require a descent release and some ball rolls favor that reaction more than others I've seen some bowler who can make a even rolling ball appear skid/flip


Well, my #3 spot is actually the second most aggressive ball. It's the ball that is usually the most "skid/flip" and strong enough to deal with the carrydown that often exists in house leagues where bowlers aren't all throwing reactive resin equipment...spraying and praying, etc...

The trick in my future arsenal (and why I'm asking these questions and we're having this discussion) is that I'll be trying to slate the Grudge Hybrid in the #2 spot...which is historically where I'd slate my least aggressive, "ball-down" ball. However, in THIS situation...the Grudge Hybrid is arguably the strongest of the 3 balls...for all the reasons we've discussed. That means I either need to "re-shuffle" my progression...maybe switch the Aura and Grudge...or I need to "dummy down" the Grudge using drilling and surface adjustments to allow it to be a "ball down option".

And this is my point your 1, 2, and 4 balls will all be more aggressive than your 3. maybe more likely here would be Aura, Exile, Grudge, Rhino with the way you use your lineup and that is of course with a surface change on the Aura. I wouldn't change the surface on anything of course until I tested it out and I wouldn't try to retard the Grudge just never works out well.



Well...and this is going to sound argumentatve more so than I mean it...but thats because you put virtually no weight on actual specs.


Actually I do put weight in specs just I balance it with what my eyes see too. I just don't bother putting them into my posts as I know you'll lookem up anyway lol.




Hammer Rhythm: symmetric core, solid cover, 2.50 RG, 0.040 diff., 211 PerfectScale.
Brunswick Lethal Revolver: symmetric core, solid cover, 2.52 RG, 0.054 diff., 209.5 PerfectScale.
Columbia300 Dark Encounter: assymetric core, solid cover, 2.50 RG, 0.052 diff., 209.9 PerfectScale.
Storm Optimus Solid: symmetric core, solid cover, 2.48 RG, 0.048 diff., 216.3 PerfectScale.

From a SPEC perspective...the main difference I see between the Optimus Solid and the other balls (particularly the Rhythm and Le. Revolver I had some success with... not so much with the D. Encounter)....is the Optimus Solid has a very low RG. The Rhythm had a 2.50...not super-low...but the Rhythm had a low differential as well...it was a very "smooth", arcing ball. The Lethal Revolver was stronger...and a little more angular...but it had a more moderate RG and a higher differential to give it some downlane power.

The Optimus Solid seems, like you said, to have the risk of rolling out very early...and it's differential is rather low. The only time I've seen that combination work well (for me) is the Scandal Pearl...which is obviously a different beast altogether...being a polished pearl. Would the Optimus Solid work well if you surfaced it to 1000 abralon, put Storm Step 3 buff on it, then hit it with polish?? Maybe.

Like I said, I haven't had a lot of success with solids or hybrids or balls with a lot of surface...haven't had a lot of success with Rotogrip...which might also apply to Storm and 900Global...but I'm willing to keep giving them a try. Regardless of what RobM thinks...I actually WOULD like to someday be able to play multiple lines on the lanes...and thats going to require a more diverse arsenal than what I'm using now and will be using this fall/winter.

Correct the Optimus Solid is the lowest RG of the bunch it also has the strongest cover of any of these other than maybe the dark encounter R2X is pretty strong and early by storm standards one of the reasons they don't use it much. You know my felling on deferential I agree with Rob doesn't matter much and if it does only the rhythm has enough difference to matter. So basically you've got a lower RG, stronger cover and more surface as I said about as different as you can get

Well If you polish up the Optimus Solid you basically have the original Optimus which was ok not great ball. It tended to read early too which is why it was so asinine that they brought out a sanded solid but in that form it's at least a useable ball where as the Solid was really only useable by the incredibly speed dominate and it still didn't hit well then.

I agree I'd like to see how you handle a little more diverse arsenal too why I'm trying to help you slot them. I like the Grudge Hybrid and the Gold Rhino I could make a good 1-2 punch out of those two alone. I'm a lot more unsure about the aura with a surface change and the Exile is just a weird ball at best.



I've never seen anyone throw a Brainiac, Heck, or any of the Quantums. The Jab seemed somewhat "skid/flippy"...but it was limited by it's weaker, symmetric core. It was actually a quite "smooth" ball. It's only problem was once it got down-lane...it sometimes would "jump around"...it was "jumpy". I'm not sure if that's what RobM took issue with the ball...or if it was something else.


I'm guessing Brunswick is less popular in your area than it is mine. My wife owns a Braniac and it was a pretty popular ball here. The Quantams seem to not sold as well as they should have Brunswick overreached on the price turning some people off it's a good ball. I was more joking about the Jab too low of an RG to really skid and for some bowlers they were jumpy I tried all three of the Melees and never liked any of them but others love it.

[Aslan]

It's not really the differential or anything to do with the core maybe a little higher RG would make it more so but it's the cover if a cover get too strong the ball reads early which saps it of the ability to make that sideways turn. Not that having a complete sideways reaction is a necessarily that great of a thing as it can be hard to control and lead to splits.

It does require a descent release and some ball rolls favor that reaction more than others I've seen some bowler who can make a even rolling ball appear skid/flip
Well, there's two problems I have with the "cover = skid/flip potential" theory:
1) There is really no way whatsoever to numerically "cover strength"...which means you have to use ratings systems...which I usually get hit in the face with a pie every time I mention.
2) A "strong" cover...also may read early...which is the opposite of "skid".

To me...going by specs alone...a polished/pearl cover to go long (=skid) and a high differential to flip (i.e. flare i.e. flip). The surface and RG are a bit more of a mystery to me...as is the "cover strength". Logically you would want a higher RG and less surface to go long...but at the point of "flip"...you'd want a lower RG and strong cover. Most skid/flip balls seem to have a burring compound and polish applied over the top of a rather low abralon surface (usually 500). I'm assuming the buffing/polishing allows the ball to go long while the surface underneath is what bites and aides the "flip".

It would be nice if the ball companies and bowling experts could actually help define this in a way that is consistent...and isn't contradicted by varying viewpoints and their own ball releases....but I've given up on expecting such crazy notions.


And this is my point your 1, 2, and 4 balls will all be more aggressive than your 3. maybe more likely here would be Aura, Exile, Grudge, Rhino with the way you use your lineup and that is of course with a surface change on the Aura. I wouldn't change the surface on anything of course until I tested it out and I wouldn't try to retard the Grudge just never works out well.
Well...I gotta throw the Exile to figure out how strong it actually is. You could be right that it's a "mistake ball"...or it could be another Reax Pearl that might not have worked out well for most...but works great for me.

I think the Mystic is stronger than you think....and a couple boards stronger than the Grudge Hybrid. If you watch both the bowlingball.com ball videos...on the Mystic and Grudge Hybrid...thrown by Mr. Becton (because the other guys just throw with a ton of revs so it's useless to watch them)...the Mystic actually looks 1-3 boards stronger.

Granted...I wouldn't be asking the question...if I wasn't concerned that maybe the specs aren't telling the whole story here. A ball that is 3 years newer...with the strong specs of the Grudge Hybrid...I just don't think it's as simple.

There are a handful of options:
1) Mystic (surfaced), Grudge (less surface), Exile, Gold Rhino.
2) Grudge, Mystic, Exile, Gold Rhino
3) Optimus Solid, Mystic (OOB), Exile, Gold Rhino.
4) Mystic, Special Ops, Exile, Gold Rhino.
5) Mystic, Gold Rhino (a little more surface), Exile, Special Ops (less surface).

The Grudge Hybrid is the main problem. I was planning on using a 900 Global "The Nuts" as the ball down option at #2. It's an older ball...with a medium differential, and a higher RG. It's got a really interesting cover on it...it's a solid but doesn't seem to behave as you'd expect from a solid. It would have been a nice option at #2 with the OOB surface or some slight modifications. If it did end up being overly strong...I could always switch the Mystic and "The Nuts" in the progression. But...an enormous crack around the entire ball put that little "plan" in the trash bin.


Actually I do put weight in specs just I balance it with what my eyes see too. I just don't bother putting them into my posts as I know you'll lookem up anyway lol.
I can't put much weight in what I "see"...as I don't often see folks throwing the exact equipment I'm looking at. Plus, they'd have to throw with the same speed/revs I have...an added degree of difficulty.

I've seen maybe one guy throwing a Mystic. I've never seen anyone thowing an Exile. I've seen some guys throwing DV8 stuff...but they were all high rev guys. I've seen Parker Bohn throw the Gold Rhino...but he's HOF good. I know one other guy that threw a Gold Rhino...but he palms the ball and throws about 24mph with 450rpms. To be honest...I don't really notice what most of the bowlers around me are throwing unless I make it a point to look....and I'm usually so focused on my bowling...I never really look. The Gold Rhino palm bowler was good. I know another 200 average guy was throwing a Motiv Cruel Intent or something like that. I saw a couple good bowlers throwing Hyper Cells...and a Haywire. I've seen a couple guys throwing one of the Columbia Antics...I don't remember which one. I think one guy was throwing a Game Changer. Mostly older Storm balls like Fire Road and Special Agent...a couple guys threw the old Nexxus line. The Storm Sync and Optimus were really popular back a year or so ago...and a couple of the Fusions...can't remember which ones. The original Mastermind was popular as well as the one that came out just after it...the Genius I think....the one with some green color on it. Radical Gurus were also really popular back a year ago.


You know my felling on deferential I agree with Rob doesn't matter much...
Agree to disagree on that one.


Well If you polish up the Optimus Solid you basically have the original Optimus which was ok not great ball.
It seemed like every bowler in the sport league I was in back in 2013/2014 had one of those. Every rack seemed to have an Optimus, Mastermind, Mastermind Genius, and a Hyper Cell. And a fair amount of those Virtual Gravity balls...I can't remember which versions. Of course...I don't see many Optimus' anymore...maybe thats why.


I agree I'd like to see how you handle a little more diverse arsenal too why I'm trying to help you slot them. I like the Grudge Hybrid and the Gold Rhino I could make a good 1-2 punch out of those two alone.
Granted...you almost ALWAYS pick the newer options. And...if I use that logic...I end up with a bunch of older, cracked balls in my condo dumpster...and that makes me sad.


I'm a lot more unsure about the aura with a surface change and the Exile is just a weird ball at best.
Well...I gotta use those two balls in the 2018 arsenal. I don't think they'll stay crack-free until 2019. I'm pretty sure I can make the Exile work. If not...I'll have learned me lesson and can always use the Mystic/Gold Rhino combo...and as long as the drilling doesn't prohibit it...move the Grudge Hybrid to #3. And like I said, if the Grudge Hybrid is noticeably stronger than the Aura Mystic...I can flip them in the order. I had to do that with the Lethal Revolver and Dark Encounter....because the Brunswick brand just hooked sooner than the Columbia300 brand...even with the higher RG.


I'm guessing Brunswick is less popular in your area than it is mine. My wife owns a Braniac and it was a pretty popular ball here.
I think the Mastermind series WAS popular...but once they started coming out with more Masterminds than just a solid, hybrid, and a pearl...I think people started to wonder what was up.


The Quantams seem to not sold as well as they should have Brunswick overreached on the price turning some people off it's a good ball.
100% agree on that theory. Seemed like a very "blah" ball and Brunswick charged a bunch of money for it. The specs looked interesting...it's on my "wish list"...but most bowling ball shoppers aren't looking much at the specs.


I was more joking about the Jab too low of an RG to really skid and for some bowlers they were jumpy I tried all three of the Melees and never liked any of them but others love it.
"Jumpy" yes...but I gotta admit I loved it.

[Amyers]

Well, there's two problems I have with the "cover = skid/flip potential" theory:
1) There is really no way whatsoever to numerically "cover strength"...which means you have to use ratings systems...which I usually get hit in the face with a pie every time I mention.
2) A "strong" cover...also may read early...which is the opposite of "skid".

That's true you have to use your eyes. It's strange your perception of the bowlers around you and the equipment they use. Friday night I bowled a Scotch Doubles tournament (not your typical big tournament) mostly bored league bowlers during the summer. It's actually about 50/50 men and women and all the women are lower average except 2. 30 Participants in all. they break it up into a 185+ group and a below 185 group the 185+ draws the name out of a bag of the below 185+ group so your effectively handicapped by your partners. redraw after each game.Works pretty well. On the second game when the new group came on we had 5 No Rules on the lane at the same time 4 of which belonged to the less than 185 crowd almost all of whom are female. Not saying I don't see the occasional old ball but equipment less than 2 years old is the norm here.



To me...going by specs alone...a polished/pearl cover to go long (=skid) and a high differential to flip (i.e. flare i.e. flip). The surface and RG are a bit more of a mystery to me...as is the "cover strength". Logically you would want a higher RG and less surface to go long...but at the point of "flip"...you'd want a lower RG and strong cover. Most skid/flip balls seem to have a burring compound and polish applied over the top of a rather low abralon surface (usually 500). I'm assuming the buffing/polishing allows the ball to go long while the surface underneath is what bites and aides the "flip".


I'd agree with most of this on the surface portion. Too much differential can shorten the hook phase which doesn't lend to maximum flip the best balls for that tend to be in .40-.49 range from what I see but again wouldn't qualify or disqualify anything from that.




Well...I gotta throw the Exile to figure out how strong it actually is. You could be right that it's a "mistake ball"...or it could be another Reax Pearl that might not have worked out well for most...but works great for me.

I think the Mystic is stronger than you think....and a couple boards stronger than the Grudge Hybrid. If you watch both the bowlingball.com ball videos...on the Mystic and Grudge Hybrid...thrown by Mr. Becton (because the other guys just throw with a ton of revs so it's useless to watch them)...the Mystic actually looks 1-3 boards stronger.

You could be correct about the mystic of all the balls we've discussed I know the least about that one. I've seen a few Aura balls on the lanes and which ones they are in the line I'm not sure. There are some bowlers it's useless to watch ie Mr. Palm the ball or a woman with no hand but for the average bowler even if they have more speed or more revs I can get an idea of what the shape of the equipment they are using and how it rolls. Mostly I agree your going to have to drill it up and see what you've got at least the balls do have a different rg this year.




It seemed like every bowler in the sport league I was in back in 2013/2014 had one of those. Every rack seemed to have an Optimus, Mastermind, Mastermind Genius, and a Hyper Cell. And a fair amount of those Virtual Gravity balls...I can't remember which versions. Of course...I don't see many Optimus' anymore...maybe thats why.

Well out of that list the Mastermind, Hyper Cell, and especially the Virtual Gravity are all classics. The Optimus never reached anywhere near that status it was just new at the time.



Granted...you almost ALWAYS pick the newer options. And...if I use that logic...I end up with a bunch of older, cracked balls in my condo dumpster...and that makes me sad.


1. I've only been back bowling competitively over the last 4 years or so and really watching over the last 3 so I do tend to recommend what I've seen and actually know something about.
2. I believe that in any given year maybe about 10% of the balls that come out are really, really good. 50% are average. 30% are condition specific but ok and the remaining 10% are flawed in multiple ways.

Lets be honest about it the closet of destiny isn't filled full of Virtual Gravitys, Masterminds, and Hyroads. A lot of these balls you purchased before you knew what you know now and a lot of them were clearance purchases. Some balls go on clearance because their time in the sun is up nothing wrong with that at all. I tend not to purchase balls when they first come out either but their are also balls that are clearance because they were flawed some fixable others not so much. At the moment in my opinion you've got some balls that were pretty flawed sitting there. One of these days I'm going to build an arsenal of clearanced Radical stuff seems some pretty good stuff goes off cheap for them.




I think the Mastermind series WAS popular...but once they started coming out with more Masterminds than just a solid, hybrid, and a pearl...I think people started to wonder what was up.

100% agree on that theory. Seemed like a very "blah" ball and Brunswick charged a bunch of money for it. The specs looked interesting...it's on my "wish list"...but most bowling ball shoppers aren't looking much at the specs.


I don't know I seen a lot of all of the Masterminds the Intellect wasn't well received "over under" (poor surface choice) and the scholar had similar issues but the rest were good. We had an Einstein (me),Braniac (wife), and Original (daughter) and they all enjoyed them. My daughter still hasn't found anything she likes as well as her original. I really like the green Quantum and maybe the new black one. Will probably have one of them in the new arsenal. Just the price put down sales of what would have been a very popular ball at $150

[Aslan]

Lets be honest about it the closet of destiny isn't filled full of Virtual Gravitys, Masterminds, and Hyroads.
True. A lot of times balls go on clearance because they didn't sell very well and the website retailer wants to unload them. The only counter to that is....sometimes bowling ball popularity is more of a "popularity contest" and has nothing to do with actual performance. Storm is a pretty popular brand...the Optimus, Sync, Byte all sold very well. Yet...there was also a ton of criticism for those balls. The Deadly Aim sold very, very well...yet had a lot of critics. Then there are balls by less popular brands like the GameChanger (Ebonite) that many pros seem to really like, but the bowling public didn't really invest in and the opposite is true for balls like the re-released Widow series from Hammer...where the bowling public was really exicted about it...but the pros didn't really use it very much. Sometimes popularity is just popularity.


A lot of these balls you purchased before you knew what you know now...
Very true. As I've learned more about bowling ball specs and how to set up an arsenal...I've bought less bowling balls and have started looking at what type of balls I need to plug certain holes in the arsenals.

The biggest blow to the closet of destiny is the tendency of the balls to crack. I've lost 2 retired balls to cracking...but who cares? They are retired. On the other hand, I've lost 3 undrilled balls to cracking...and only one was still under warranty...meaning I lost about $170 and never even got a chance to throw the balls. If that keeps occurring...I could quickly see the $20-$110 savings per ball evaporate.


At the moment in my opinion you've got some balls that were pretty flawed sitting there.
For some balls like the Warning Sign and Exile...perhaps. But, I bought the Exile during a black friday sale...when it was still a rather new ball. And of the balls in the closet of destiny...it was probably the most expensive because wasn't yet on clearance....I think I paid $105 for it. Most closet of destiny balls are around $80-$90.

But, most of the other balls sold quite well. The Mystic was a very popular ball when it was released. I haven't heard anything bad about the DV8 Thug Life. And I didn't hear the bad stuff about the Optimus Solid until you mentioned it. The Vintage Gold Rhino wasn't a clearance purchase...I won it here on bowlingboards.com. The 900Global Special Ops was a ball raffle win. And the DV8 Grudge Hybrid was a warranty replacement for the first Thug Life I had that cracked.

I wasn't knocking the Mastermind series....I love that series! I wanted a Mastermind and a Mastermind Genius. What didn't make sense was:

The Mastermind was a solid. The Genius came out 6 months later and was a Hybrid. 7 months later they released the Intellect...another solid. They then finally released the Scholar; a pearl variation...6 months later.

So,
1) Why did it take them so long to release a pearl version?
2) What was wrong with the original Mastermind, that they felt they needed to release the Mastermind Intellect (another solid)?

They then released the Mastermind Einstein five months later...another Hybrid. So, what was wrong with the Mastermind Genius?

Then...instead of releasing a new Mastermind Pearl...they released a THIRD SOLID!...the Mastermind Strategy!!

When a ball company releases a line...it's usually a 3-ball line...solid, pearl, then hybrid. They sometimes release them all at once...sometimes release the solid and pearl...then 3-6 months later release a hybrid version. Brunswick released a very popular Mastermind...then a very popular Mastermind Genius...but instead of releasing a Pearl version...they released another solid...less than a year after releasing the original solid Mastermind. When you compare the two balls...they are identical except the Intellect has the Honor Roll A+ coverstock versus the Masterminds Honor Roll coverstock.

That's *!%^ing stupid! All I can think is that either they had a problem making a pearlized version of the Honor Roll coverstock...OR there was a problem with the Honor Roll coverstock.

They finally release a Pearl (Mastermind Scholar)...then change the coverstock AGAIN...as well as the core...and create a new Hybrid; the Mastermind Einstein. Just when they had a complete series using the Honor Roll A+ coverstock...they change the coverstock AGAIN...and the core! Then comes the solid version (Mastermind Strategy)...never released a pearl version.

Now, I never saw a problem with the Mastermind series....so I don't know why they felt they needed to keep changing things like mad scientists. But, I do think it hurt sales of the line because:
1) Usually when a company changes a spec before releasing all 3 versions (solid, hybrid, pearl)...it's a sign that the original version wasn't very good. The Radical Reax was a very anticipated ball....then in a very short time after release...there was a "Radical Reax Version 2"...which pretty much killed the enthusiasm for the Reax line.
2) The Mastermind series became too confusing. Nobody could figure out which ball was supposed to fit where...because there were 3 different versions of the solid, two different versions of the Hybrid, and only one version of the Pearl. It's kinda like when Track was naming all their balls with numbers and letters. It was supposed to make things easier...but all it did was confuse the hell out of everybody.

[Amyers]

True. A lot of times balls go on clearance because they didn't sell very well and the website retailer wants to unload them. The only counter to that is....sometimes bowling ball popularity is more of a "popularity contest" and has nothing to do with actual performance. Storm is a pretty popular brand...the Optimus, Sync, Byte all sold very well. Yet...there was also a ton of criticism for those balls. The Deadly Aim sold very, very well...yet had a lot of critics. Then there are balls by less popular brands like the GameChanger (Ebonite) that many pros seem to really like, but the bowling public didn't really invest in and the opposite is true for balls like the re-released Widow series from Hammer...where the bowling public was really exicted about it...but the pros didn't really use it very much. Sometimes popularity is just popularity.



Well I tend to limit my interest to the Brunswick and Storm families with the occasional hammer ball tends to narrow the field a bit. your correct though what you see on tv and what you see on league night being effective aren't necessarily the same thing.



The biggest blow to the closet of destiny is the tendency of the balls to crack. I've lost 2 retired balls to cracking...but who cares? They are retired. On the other hand, I've lost 3 undrilled balls to cracking...and only one was still under warranty...meaning I lost about $170 and never even got a chance to throw the balls. If that keeps occurring...I could quickly see the $20-$110 savings per ball evaporate.



Yeah I see that as a serious issue myself. I wouldn't buy anything I didn't intend to drill in the next 6-8 months myself.






I wasn't knocking the Mastermind series....I love that series! I wanted a Mastermind and a Mastermind Genius. What didn't make sense was:

The Mastermind was a solid. The Genius came out 6 months later and was a Hybrid. 7 months later they released the Intellect...another solid. They then finally released the Scholar; a pearl variation...6 months later.

So,
1) Why did it take them so long to release a pearl version?
2) What was wrong with the original Mastermind, that they felt they needed to release the Mastermind Intellect (another solid)?

They then released the Mastermind Einstein five months later...another Hybrid. So, what was wrong with the Mastermind Genius?

Then...instead of releasing a new Mastermind Pearl...they released a THIRD SOLID!...the Mastermind Strategy!!

When a ball company releases a line...it's usually a 3-ball line...solid, pearl, then hybrid. They sometimes release them all at once...sometimes release the solid and pearl...then 3-6 months later release a hybrid version. Brunswick released a very popular Mastermind...then a very popular Mastermind Genius...but instead of releasing a Pearl version...they released another solid...less than a year after releasing the original solid Mastermind. When you compare the two balls...they are identical except the Intellect has the Honor Roll A+ coverstock versus the Masterminds Honor Roll coverstock.

That's *!%^ing stupid! All I can think is that either they had a problem making a pearlized version of the Honor Roll coverstock...OR there was a problem with the Honor Roll coverstock.

They finally release a Pearl (Mastermind Scholar)...then change the coverstock AGAIN...as well as the core...and create a new Hybrid; the Mastermind Einstein. Just when they had a complete series using the Honor Roll A+ coverstock...they change the coverstock AGAIN...and the core! Then comes the solid version (Mastermind Strategy)...never released a pearl version.

Now, I never saw a problem with the Mastermind series....so I don't know why they felt they needed to keep changing things like mad scientists. But, I do think it hurt sales of the line because:
1) Usually when a company changes a spec before releasing all 3 versions (solid, hybrid, pearl)...it's a sign that the original version wasn't very good. The Radical Reax was a very anticipated ball....then in a very short time after release...there was a "Radical Reax Version 2"...which pretty much killed the enthusiasm for the Reax line.
2) The Mastermind series became too confusing. Nobody could figure out which ball was supposed to fit where...because there were 3 different versions of the solid, two different versions of the Hybrid, and only one version of the Pearl. It's kinda like when Track was naming all their balls with numbers and letters. It was supposed to make things easier...but all it did was confuse the hell out of everybody.

Well first off these balls were release over probably 3 years so not quite as run on as you would believe. The Intellect was solid but polished so in effect a pearl, So you basically got the normal sequence solid, hybrid, polished. Of the 1st iterations of the series the Original was probably most popular the Intellect the least. Only people I know who liked the intellect added surface to it making it closer to the original.

The next group were the Scholar a pearl with a weaker cover, The hybrid Einstein with a stronger cover and higher Rg core, the Braniac same core as Einstein pearl with a stronger cover. I consider these the 2nd iterations of the series. The Scholar was kind of unloved but it was much weaker than the rest of the line which confused people. Popularity was close between the Einstein and Brainiac both were really good along with the original being the best of the bunch.

They changed the core again with the Strategy I seen quite a few sold didn't know anyone who loved it or hated it. I think they are done with the masterminds now but they may surprise me. The only ones I thought really strange were the Einstein and Braniac the motions were somewhat close even though the Braniac was longer with a touch more backend I wouldn't want them both in the same bag.

Sorry I'm bored today lol