Well, there are a couple misconceptions about what Liz did

[Aslan]

Well, there are a couple misconceptions about what Liz did:

1) Liz wasn't playing inside the entire tournament.
2) Liz moved inside because she knew that the outside line had transitioned. Diana Z stubbornly refused to move inside.

I think the debate about "inside versus track versus outside (1st arrow, up and in) is more a debate regarding where to play on fresh conditions.

I usually start somewhere around the track...8-12 at the arrows laying the ball down about 13-16 at the foul line. That's a very common place to play the lanes...especially given that most lanes outside of Vegas tend to be on the drier side which makes the 1st arrow shot almost impossible with modern equipment (unless you're on sport conditions).

That being said, usually by the end of a 3-game set...I'm targeting 11-15 at the arrows with a laydown of 14-21 at the foul line. By the time the 3-game set is over, I've probably moved my target in a few boards and my feet in 3-6 boards.

So, in that regard, I play the inside line just like Liz does...when the lanes dictate that I have to. But, like Liz and most other bowlers...including the vast majority of house bowlers, most of the PWBA, and almost all of the PBA50...I start out somewhere around the track on fresh conditions.

As my rev rate and release have improved, I've been able to open up the lanes a little more. I used to start out targeting around 6-7 and laying the ball down around 5-7...essentially playing a straight shot outside the track and letting the ball curve into the pocket. With a suitcase release where I'm releasing the ball with my hand on top of the ball versus behind/inside/beneath it...I needed all the help I could get for that ball to get back to the pocket. By the end of the night...I was bowling on the transition...10-12 at the arrows, laying the ball down at about 10-13...still throwing it straight to the target and relying on backend motion. For illustration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRnLBy9UCp8

I agree with Fordman and I've had coaches say the same thing, concerning accuracy; you have to be quite a bit more accurate as you move inside. If I miss right, as much as 6-8 boards, playing the track...the ball will likely come back to the pocket and leave me a 10-pin. If I miss left 1-2 boards I will likely still strike. When I move inside...a > 2-board miss left or right and I leave a headpin combo (miss right) or go through the nose and leave a split (left side miss).

[Amyers]

Well, there are a couple misconceptions about what Liz did:

I agree with Fordman and I've had coaches say the same thing, concerning accuracy; you have to be quite a bit more accurate as you move inside. If I miss right, as much as 6-8 boards, playing the track...the ball will likely come back to the pocket and leave me a 10-pin. If I miss left 1-2 boards I will likely still strike. When I move inside...a > 2-board miss left or right and I leave a headpin combo (miss right) or go through the nose and leave a split (left side miss).

6-8 boards? Really? Still a pocket shot. If I'm aiming at 10 and hit 4 even the balls going to do one of three things depending on the house. Go into the gutter most likely, hook to the 7 pin or go Brooklyn none of which are close to the pocket. I don't have anywhere on any lane that I've got that much miss room and still come on the right side of the head pin much less the pocket.

[bowl1820]

6-8 boards? Really? Still a pocket shot.

It happens here, I've had balls go to the one board come back to the pocket and strike.

But most of the time with those steep angles it leaves a 10-pin.

[Amyers]

It happens here, I've had balls go to the one board come back to the pocket and strike.

But most of the time with those steep angles it leaves a 10-pin.

I'm not saying it can't happen but as a usual occurrence enough to influence where you play? If your playing ten and the ball hits at 4 unless your playing extremely straight that's a gutter ball. People must be doing some serious walking right on the approach.

[Aslan]

It happens here, I've had balls go to the one board come back to the pocket and strike.

But most of the time with those steep angles it leaves a 10-pin.
What Bowl1820 said.

The times where that has happened...I usually missed but had a good release with alot of hand in the ball. Had I hit my mark...I'd have probably left a 4-9. But, as Bowl1820 described...a miss like that almost never strikes....usually you leave a 10-pin or if you're not as lucky...something like a 5-7 split. Having the ball go all the way out and back uses up alot of it's energy...so when it makes it back to the pocket...it limps in like a wounded duck.

[Aslan]

I'm not saying it can't happen but as a usual occurrence enough to influence where you play? If your playing ten and the ball hits at 4 unless your playing extremely straight that's a gutter ball. People must be doing some serious walking right on the approach.

It depends on your angles.

If I'm laying down 15-16 at the foul line and targeting 11...but I hit 8 instead (3-board miss)...it's not gonna go in the gutter...but it's gonna be about 3-4 at the tracers rather than 9 at the tracers. So, it's a 3-board miss at the target and a 5-board miss at the breakpoint.

In contrast, if I'm playing a sharper angle...laying down about 20....targeting 11...then a 2-3 board miss right 'might' stay out of the gutter...but a 4-6 board miss will almost certainly go in the gutter.

Bowl1820 can explain better because he has that fancy thing where you can draw lines on the lane to illustrate.

It's one of the reasons that 1st arrow is my "B-Game". I love the out and in shot...but I hate losing my miss room on the right. Throwing straight up the 4-board is nerve-racking...because even a 2-board miss could end up in the channel.

[bowl1820]

I'm not saying it can't happen but as a usual occurrence enough to influence where you play? If your playing ten and the ball hits at 4 unless your playing extremely straight that's a gutter ball. People must be doing some serious walking right on the approach.

No not a usual occurrence, those are accidental shots. You hit your leg with the ball, etc. and throw the ball wide.

But once in a blue moon when struggling, I've made a "accidental shot" that had a good look and struck. An I've adjusted to try make a similar shot if it wasn't some ludicrous change or area of the lane. Like if a ball struck from the one board, I wouldn't try play the one board.

[Aslan]

No not a usual occurrence, those are accidental shots. You hit your leg with the ball, etc. and throw the ball wide.

But once in a blue moon when struggling, I've made a "accidental shot" that had a good look and struck. An I've adjusted to try make a similar shot if it wasn't some ludicrous change or area of the lane. Like if a ball struck from the one board, I wouldn't try play the one board.

It also depends on how much hand you had in the shot.

I've missed well right and struck...and thought, "Hmmm....maybe I should be playing that line." But if that shot was with a ton of hand...and you try the same angle with not as much hand = big problems.

So, as a "not-so-good" bowler...I have to always ask myself, "Can I repeat the shot and move? Or, was that a fluke and I should stay where I'm at?"

[fordman1]

I agree totally with all of you. That's is always the best policy. If it isn't you normal A game when you move deeper inside it is harder to hit your mark. Your body has to get into a position that you are not normally in. You miss a little right and the ball will still recover, a little more and you get a washout. Miss in and you get a split. All depends on how much oil is in the middle. I find it easier to move in than going down the out side of 5. Just can't seem to keep my arm in line. That big wide gray board next to one might be causing a brain fart.

[RobLV1]

Go back and look at my original post. Somehow, when Aslan posted nonsense about playing inside vs. outside on a fresh condition and Liz not playing inside for the whole tournament, the entire thread went to h*ll in a hand basket. The point was, and still is, that you don't have to have a lot of hand to play an inside line. Where this went South was when everyone started chiming in about why they can't play in, or play out, or play wherever. The fact of the matter is, if you move to a different part of the lane and start missing your mark on a consistent basis, there is only one reason: you haven't practiced it to the point where you have gotten comfortable with it. If you can't play the third arrow, take a plastic, urethane, or non-aggressive resin ball and throw 10, 20, or 30 games playing the third arrow until you feel like it is your best friend. Do the same with the fourth arrow, etc. Practice is not about shooting scores. With a non-aggressive ball, you should be able to hit the pocket from any part of the lane, once you learn to just throw your shot and hit your mark. The only other thing that you have to do is to make sure that you do not start drifting right with your feet as you move your target deeper inside.

[Aslan]

When I move in too quickly...I leave a TON of 1-2-4-10s, 2-4-5-8s, 2-4-5s, 1-2-4s, and 1-2-4-7s.

And I HATE 1-2-4-10s with a passion! I've been trying to pick them up using the new USBC method of throwing straight at the pocket with a straight ball...and it's still just a nearly impossible spare to pick up while not getting the "split" designation. So I've been very gunshy about moving too far inside too quickly. I just don't have the arsenal nor hand to play that game.

Concerning Liz's victory...it's also fair to note that:
1) Liz was using a No Rules Pearl with surface....a very aggressive ball. Zavjalova was using an Ebonite Gamebreaker 2 with surface...a much, much weaker ball.
2) Liz didn't bowl that well...but Zavjalova went threw the nose in the 10th and chopped a 6-7 split. Liz just got lucky.

I couldn't tell what their speeds were. It seemed like Diana Z was trying to play a lower speed than usual...and was still bowling about 18.5mph. I think Liz was around 18 as well.

Zavjalova is not only the hottest bowler in the World (my personal opinion)...but has amazing form...probably the best on the PWBA tour. Her downside this season has been the mental side. Earlier in the season she was having thumb issues and missed a single 5-pin to cost her a higher finish. She has dominated qualifying and then just completely "poo"ed the bed in match play. I don't what is going on with her....maybe it's the new "Frozen" hairstyle...I'm not sure...but if she can ever fix the mental side of her game...her physical game is top notch.

Liz Johnson, on the other hand, is in her 40s and the physical game isn't what it used to be. But her mental game is almost untouchable. With her experience...she can make moves like that...inside of where she normally would play...in a title match no less...and it doesn't rattle her. Kelly Kullick is also in her upper 30s/low 40s and has been absolutely dominant early on in the PWBA Tour. I watched her bowl in Fountain Valley, in person, and it was one of the best bowling performances I'd ever seen.

The question is the same for the women that it is for the men...how long can the older crowd like Dorrin-Ballard, Johnson, Barnes, and Kullick continue to hold their own against a huge crop of collegiate and international women that are so physically gifted. And how long before we see some of the 40 something women debut on the PBA50 tour and how well will they fare? At that age, the PBA50 men have lost alot of the physical advantages they had over the women earlier and on the National Tour. I could see the PWBA 50 somethings holding their own quite well against the men in the PBA50 environment.

[Aslan]

Rather than respond in my usual manner...lemme try something different (since RobM and I seem to disagree alot about things that I'm not sure we even disagree about). Maybe instead of responding, let me ask a question instead:

What are you (RobM) wanting bowlers to do?

Because...you and I completely agree (I think) that bowlers should not shy away from moving inside as the lanes transition...and that far too many bowlers are stuck in their ways and refuse to move laterally as the lanes transition.

I don't really understand what that has to do with fresh conditions? Are you advocating that bowlers should develop multiple speeds, approaches, and releases and move into 3rd-4th arrow on fresh conditions? Why? The current THS is specifically designed to score well in the track. Why would I develop multiple releases and speeds...and make the necessary changes to my arsenal...at the risk of jeopardizing my timing...just so I can play inside of everyone else...before even knowing if I SHOULD play inside of everyone else?

I thought you point about playing inside was to let the lanes dictate where you play and move inside accordingly. But, now I'm confused. :confused:

[bowl1820]

What are you (RobM) wanting bowlers to do?


I believe what Rob is trying to tell bowlers is, They don't have to be afraid to play the deeper inside lines (if the lanes call for being played there).

Just because they think they don't have a high enough rev rate. It had nothing to do with whether the conditions were fresh or not.


IMO most bowlers when you say play deep inside, they see/think this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je48AyUhyMM

Someone hitting 4th arrow, sending the ball out wide with a lot of revs to bringing it back from way out there.

[bowl1820]

They don't think this "Liz Johnson 2017 Storm Sacramento Open ":

Oil pattern used for the 2017 Storm Sacramento Open
http://scores.bowl.com/2017_PWBA/Sacramento/OilPattern.pdf


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24TFSK20T3Q

Someone like Liz Johnson (or themselves) with lower revs, hitting 4th arrow (looks like around 13-15 at the BP) and hitting the pocket. Because she kept her breakpoint closer to the headpin and was not throwing out toward the gutter and trying to bring it back from there.

[fordman1]

Or you can move a little right and take you hand out completely and pipe up the 2nd arrow. Let the side weight flip it to the pocket. Just remember to throw hard.

[RobLV1]

Rather than respond in my usual manner...lemme try something different (since RobM and I seem to disagree alot about things that I'm not sure we even disagree about). Maybe instead of responding, let me ask a question instead:

What are you (RobM) wanting bowlers to do?

Because...you and I completely agree (I think) that bowlers should not shy away from moving inside as the lanes transition...and that far too many bowlers are stuck in their ways and refuse to move laterally as the lanes transition.

I don't really understand what that has to do with fresh conditions? Are you advocating that bowlers should develop multiple speeds, approaches, and releases and move into 3rd-4th arrow on fresh conditions? Why? The current THS is specifically designed to score well in the track. Why would I develop multiple releases and speeds...and make the necessary changes to my arsenal...at the risk of jeopardizing my timing...just so I can play inside of everyone else...before even knowing if I SHOULD play inside of everyone else?

I thought you point about playing inside was to let the lanes dictate where you play and move inside accordingly. But, now I'm confused. :confused:

What I am wanting bowlers to do is to PRACTICE shots with which they are not comfortable. I'm not talking one or two games. I'm talking ten or twenty or a hundred games until they get comfortable. Being that you often post your practice scores, I know that you don't do this. As my wife tells me weekly when I tell her how well I bowled in practice, "Who cares! Practice scores mean nothing." While house shots are set up to play the track when they are fresh, new, super-absorbent balls, and new oils (that are cheaper for proprietors), make that shot go away quickly. If you remember my friend, Mike Tucker to whom I introduced you two or three years ago, is bowling his first Senior League with me this summer. During the fourth game last week, he was playing the 6th arrow on a house shot! He didn't do it for his health, or even to show off, he did it because it's what the lanes demanded at that time.

[Aslan]

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/images-13-292x160.jpg

Not the game...practice. We're talkin bout practice? Not the game...not the game. Practice.

Somewhere Iceman is spinning in his grave. :rolleyes:

I'm not gonna argue...cuz I kinda get what Rob is saying and understand what he's getting at...and there's no use getting into the whole, "how do you practice an inside shot on a fresh pattern when no center is going to give you a fresh pattern to practice on thus you're always practicing on garbage of varying degrees...etc, etc..."

Sometimes...there IS a shot like what Liz Johnson played at the Sacramento Open. It's rare...and apparently to win with it requires a very powerful ball and the opponent throwing a split in the 10th...but yes...sometimes it is there. And...I guess adding that to a practice regiment wouldn't be a bad idea. Of matter of fact...I've noticed this summer while PRACTICING a great deal...that given the centers rarely put down fresh patterns unless there is a league coming in...ya kinda got no choice but to move inside and practice that "C-Game".

The problem is...if any of those leagues or open bowlers that bowled on that pattern between when they oiled it and when you practice on it...and you're gonna try to play that Liz Johnson line...you better hope everybody was throwing reactive resin...I doubt Liz battled much carrydown in the final game of the stepladder finals.

[RobLV1]

The idea of practice is to learn to hit your mark regardless of where you are playing on the lanes. If you forget about score when you practice, it doesn't have to be on fresh oil. You simply throw a non-reactive ball until you are comfortable hitting your mark consistently. By the way, please read the latest article that I wrote for BTM where I give the empirical results of lane tapes which proves, once and for all, that CARRYDOWN IS NOT A FACTOR IN MODERN BOWLING!

[Amyers]

http://ballislife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/images-13-292x160.jpg

Not the game...practice. We're talkin bout practice? Not the game...not the game. Practice.

Somewhere Iceman is spinning in his grave. :rolleyes:

I'm not gonna argue...cuz I kinda get what Rob is saying and understand what he's getting at...and there's no use getting into the whole, "how do you practice an inside shot on a fresh pattern when no center is going to give you a fresh pattern to practice on thus you're always practicing on garbage of varying degrees...etc, etc..."

Sometimes...there IS a shot like what Liz Johnson played at the Sacramento Open. It's rare...and apparently to win with it requires a very powerful ball and the opponent throwing a split in the 10th...but yes...sometimes it is there. And...I guess adding that to a practice regiment wouldn't be a bad idea. Of matter of fact...I've noticed this summer while PRACTICING a great deal...that given the centers rarely put down fresh patterns unless there is a league coming in...ya kinda got no choice but to move inside and practice that "C-Game".

The problem is...if any of those leagues or open bowlers that bowled on that pattern between when they oiled it and when you practice on it...and you're gonna try to play that Liz Johnson line...you better hope everybody was throwing reactive resin...I doubt Liz battled much carrydown in the final game of the stepladder finals.

Even if you do care about scores during practice the middle is always the last part to break down. Simply because its where the highest volume of oil is placed and it's the least used area of the lane.

[Aslan]

The idea of practice is to learn to hit your mark regardless of where you are playing on the lanes. If you forget about score when you practice, it doesn't have to be on fresh oil. You simply throw a non-reactive ball until you are comfortable hitting your mark consistently.

It's not quite that simple.

Sure, we practice so we can reduce our =/- (in terms of boards we miss our target). But, we also practice to try and work on other aspects of our game.

For me; I also work on:
- Staying down and posting my shot.
- Keeping my hand more under/behind the ball.
- Making the proper adjustments based on what the ball is doing (or not doing).

And, sometimes...you need to see what the ball is doing in order to know if you're doing the right thing. Sure, you could use video...but now you're setting up a camera and reviewing footage and trying to see certain things that might be hard to see. Sometimes...especially concerning the adjustments...you NEED to have the ball reacting the way it would in competition...so you can make adjustments and evaluate/improve those adjustments and decision-making. Am I correct on that?

[RobLV1]

You can still accomplish two out of three of your practice goals. You can stay down and post your shot, and you can keep your hand more under/behind the ball. This is not a place to practice making adjustments. You trade that for playing a different part of the lane where there is no realistic shot. Certainly, by now, you should be able to see what the ball is doing on every shot you throw without a video camera. The idea is to learn to play the shot, not to score.

Last Sunday I bowled in a local "Double Trouble" Tournament where they put out the 52' Badger pattern on the left lane, and the 32' Wolf pattern on the right lane. I got to the center early, and using a urethane spare ball on lanes that had been oiled with the house shot, I bowled a couple of games playing up seventeen on the left lane and up three on the right lane. The idea was not to score, but simply to wrap my head around the fact that I had to throw the same shot on both lanes, just using totally different lines.

[fordman1]

She won last night. She got all the breaks. It isn't how its how many.

[Aslan]

Last Sunday I bowled in a local "Double Trouble" Tournament where they put out the 52' Badger pattern on the left lane, and the 32' Wolf pattern on the right lane.
That's almost cruel. Sounds fun though! Lucky Vegas bowlers...you get to do all the cool stuff!!

[JasonNJ]

Perfect example of Rob's point. WRW bowled a 300 game tonight and I think this is the final shot. Looks like he's playing 6th arrow and the pattern is 52' Badger.

https://www.facebook.com/59512776126/videos/10154671831236127/

This was posted on Vise's Facebook page so no better link for it I'm afraid.

[fokai73]

Here's proof that a low rev player like myself can play the 4th arrow or the 6th arrow. Rob is right, it can be done with guidance and practice.

These videos were filmed a couple years prior to being posted and my game has changed. At the time of these videos, my rev rate was just below 300. With the help from world class coaches, I've increased my rev rate by a significant amount. From this increased revrate, so did my speed increased. plus, my old crouching tiger approach has been 86'd. More upright and steady.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajhSoWHMdNs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pLZByQYM-U