Re prior discussion on easy leagues with Aslan.

[Tony]

Some time back there were several discussions about a Wed league I'm in that has several high level bowlers, throwing frequent 300 games and high series.

The general consensus by some was it was an excessively easy shot and if we bowled on different lanes we would find much different results.

As luck would have it, I joined a summer league at a different center (center 2) and had two guys I regularly have bowled with at my original center (1)
along with.
There were also several guys I bowl with on the center 1 leagues so I know how they shoot.

As a result it was interesting to see how things went.

This was a 13 week league with 14 three person teams and was 100% of 220.

The number of 300 games for the season 0
The number of 800 series for the season 0
The number of 700 series for the season somewhere in the 20's
High series 729
High game 299

These were down significantly from center 1

Our averages / myself / 2 teammates/ 2 other buddies who bowl at both centers

Center 1 Center 2

181 193
183 196
197 209
212 209
206 210

Averages were up for 4 of the 5 bowlers but overall scoring was way down from center 1....

So what would you say that would indicate ?

The high season series at center 2 would be unlikely to even be the high weekly series at center 1

[bowl1820]

So what would you say that would indicate ?


That if you go to a different house the shot will be different.

[got_a_300]

+1 for bowl1820's answer......and we don't even have to change centers
as our shot is different week to week. I can play up the 5th or 6th board
one week and then come in the next week and I'll have to play the 4th or
5th arrow or somewhere in between.

[bowl1820]

Some time back there were several discussions about a Wed league I'm in that has several high level bowlers, throwing frequent 300 games and high series.

The general consensus by some was it was an excessively easy shot and if we bowled on different lanes we would find much different results.

As luck would have it, I joined a summer league at a different center (center 2) and had two guys I regularly have bowled with at my original center (1)
along with.
There were also several guys I bowl with on the center 1 leagues so I know how they shoot.

As a result it was interesting to see how things went.

This was a 13 week league with 14 three person teams and was 100% of 220.

The number of 300 games for the season 0
The number of 800 series for the season 0
The number of 700 series for the season somewhere in the 20's
High series 729
High game 299

These were down significantly from center 1

Our averages / myself / 2 teammates/ 2 other buddies who bowl at both centers




Center 01
Center 02


181
193


183
196


197
209


212
209


206
210



Averages were up for 4 of the 5 bowlers but overall scoring was way down from center 1....

So what would you say that would indicate ?



It was said that center 1 had a excessively easy shot why? Because it had a lot of honor scores 300's & 800's shot by just a few of the same people all the time.

But why are the honor scores of just a few players the only determining factor for whether a house is easy or not? What about the majority of bowlers who didn't shoot those honor scores?


Taking a look at the info here, what do we see?

Center 2 while having no 300 or 800 scores, has the players averaging about 8-10 pins higher than they do at center 1. You can make a case saying that center 2 is the easier house, because the players are shooting more high scores there which in turn gives them higher averages.

The flaw here is trying to say that a house/league is easy just because there's lots of honor scores shot, Because If those honor scores are mostly shot by the same small group of players it doesn't give you the whole picture. Just that center 1 appears to be easy for a certain small group of players.

[Tony]

It was said that center 1 had a excessively easy shot why? Because it had a lot of honor scores 300's & 800's shot by just a few of the same people all the time.

But why are the honor scores of just a few players the only determining factor for whether a house is easy or not? What about the majority of bowlers who didn't shoot those honor scores?


Taking a look at the info here, what do we see?

Center 2 while having no 300 or 800 scores, has the players averaging about 8-10 pins higher than they do at center 1. You can make a case saying that center 2 is the easier house, because the players are shooting more high scores there which in turn gives them higher averages.

The flaw here is trying to say that a house/league is easy just because there's lots of honor scores shot, Because If those honor scores are mostly shot by the same small group of players it doesn't give you the whole picture. Just that center 1 appears to be easy for a certain small group of players.

Right on target, center 2 is known to be a higher scoring center, most bowlers are averaging around 10 pins higher than center 1.

There just weren't any of the "superstar" bowlers in this summer league,

[fordman1]

There are probably bowlers who do just the opposite as Tony. One house is great for Crankers the other is terrible for them. Just the opposite for tweeners or straight players. I could be what fits your game.

[Tony]

There are probably bowlers who do just the opposite as Tony. One house is great for Crankers the other is terrible for them. Just the opposite for tweeners or straight players. I could be what fits your game.

There are some bowlers that score better at center 1, typically they are some of the crankers, but center 2 is far from terrible, there is plenty of oil for them to use there too, so for most of them the fall off isn't that large..... the figure of 10 pins better comes from the overall averages by all certified league bowlers according to the general manager, so of course it does vary by individual bowler.
With multiple local centers all owned by the same people they seem to have tried to set each one up for a slightly different condition and as a result most local bowlers have a center or two that they prefer better, for varied reasons.....

[ALazySavage]

My thought would be that one house caters more to a high risk, high reward style which would allow for a higher potential of honor scores while overall lowering the average (since you can easily find yourself leaving a ton of splits and other messes while also stringing a ton of strikes). The other house probably favors a style that is easy to keep the shot in front of you, consistency goes up and as long as you can convert spares you will score, but you don't post crazy numbers.

[RobLV1]

Typically, bowlers tend to assign way too much to the oil pattern put down at a particular center. There are so many physical factors that also influence the pace of scoring: the age of the facility, how much time has elapsed since lanes were resurfaced, what kind of lanes are installed, the age and type of the oil machine, what type of oil is being used, how often is the oil machine maintained, etc. With very, very few exceptions, bowling proprietors put out a condition where league bowlers can score as high as possible to keep them coming back. It is one of the other factors that may favor one group or style over another.

[Tony]

Typically, bowlers tend to assign way too much to the oil pattern put down at a particular center. There are so many physical factors that also influence the pace of scoring: the age of the facility, how much time has elapsed since lanes were resurfaced, what kind of lanes are installed, the age and type of the oil machine, what type of oil is being used, how often is the oil machine maintained, etc. With very, very few exceptions, bowling proprietors put out a condition where league bowlers can score as high as possible to keep them coming back. It is one of the other factors that may favor one group or style over another.

Yes those are all factors and we could also add the pins themselves as a variable. I'm sure most proprietors do indeed try to keep scoring up, in the case of center 1 where I bowl with the owner, GM, and the lane man that services and sets up the oiler I have witnessed many conversations about balance between not making it too easy but not so hard that tons of bowlers are complaining about not being able to score. The GM likes to make little changes to the machine to make sure it's not too predictable and forces players to make a little adjustment.

The better players seem to have little trouble making the adjustment, while the rest of the players have slightly more trouble, I think this is also one of the contributing factors that lead toward more honor scores, and a lower overall player average for the center compared to center 2 where they generally do try and keep scoring high to promote more play.

[C J]

Yes those are all factors and we could also add the pins themselves as a variable. I'm sure most proprietors do indeed try to keep scoring up, in the case of center 1 where I bowl with the owner, GM, and the lane man that services and sets up the oiler I have witnessed many conversations about balance between not making it too easy but not so hard that tons of bowlers are complaining about not being able to score. The GM likes to make little changes to the machine to make sure it's not too predictable and forces players to make a little adjustment.

The better players seem to have little trouble making the adjustment, while the rest of the players have slightly more trouble, I think this is also one of the contributing factors that lead toward more honor scores, and a lower overall player average for the center compared to center 2 where they generally do try and keep scoring high to promote more play.

I like that he does that BUT i'm sure many people complain about the shot not being the same as last week. People get mad because they weren't able to stand on the same exact board as they did last week. Like seriously? Do you really expect to bowl on that EXACT condition every week?

[fordman1]

What no mention of the corner pins being closer or farther from the gutter?
How about gutter depth?

[Aslan]

Well, first...kudos for posting data that proves me right (at least sort of). Many folks would see that I'm right and still absolutely refuse to acknowledge it.

Second, I kinda disagree with Rob...I think pattern is by FAR the biggest impact on scoring...although there are other things like types of oil, etc... that can certainly make a shot easier. I KNOW, for a fact, that centers CAN manipulate their patterns to make them easier. There was a former PBA bowler that now owns a few centers and he was on one of the PBA broadcasts talking about how he likes to make his shots at his centers as easy as possible because it's his personal belief that league bowling should be all about eating wings, drinking beer, and having fun...not "banging your head against the wall" in frustration.

Third...I have slightly "conceded" the point that your Wednesday center was absolutely easier...because I've seen leagues in this area where there are quite a few honor scores as well...and there are certainly leagues where some more competitive bowlers "congregate" which also can explain it. I was hoping to actually bowl in these leagues to see where my average ended up and if I hit any honor scores to see if it's a center issues or more likely just the make-up of the league. I haven't ever been in a league where it's been primarily high average bowlers. I've been primarily in leagues where there were certainly some high level bowlers...but they were extremely large leagues with a great many very low average bowlers as well. So, the jury is still out on where I stand on the issue until I have a chance to test the new waters here in the Midwest.

Fourth...it may also be that the honor score fellas took the summer off. I don't 'think' that's it...I think you'll see that Center #1 is just an easier center...and unfortunately easier centers attract more bowlers. I've actually seen it first hand when a local AMF center changed their shot after the Bowlmor takeover. Suddenly 180-190 average bowlers were averaging 195-225 and the league went from a few honor scores a year to 6-7 honor scores per season. I personally was averaging 190-192 in that league when I was averaging 175-185 at two other centers. Bowling league at that easier center cost me a BVL title because I got jacked into the highest level division due to the 190+ average.