Lofting?!?!

[santos314]

I am watching some 2017 U.S. Open footage and they are showing the ridiculous amount of lofting going on. Now I know there was no new oil put down for the later squads to bowl on. I get that these guys have aggressive equipment. Shouldn't these pros have mid to low ends balls to deal with this? These guys are lifting half way down the lane which is silly. Are the lanes so burnt that it doesn't matter?

[bowl1820]

I am watching some 2017 U.S. Open footage and they are showing the ridiculous amount of lofting going on. Now I know there was no new oil put down for the later squads to bowl on. I get that these guys have aggressive equipment. Shouldn't these pros have mid to low ends balls to deal with this? These guys are lifting half way down the lane which is silly. Are the lanes so burnt that it doesn't matter?

Their bowling on whats called the Burn (which means the lanes will not have been re-oiled since the squad before it.) and the Double Burn.

"Competitors again will bowl 24 games of qualifying over three days, but the number of competition lanes will be limited to just 24, so all bowlers will visit the same lanes and see them the same amount of times during qualifying, while each experiencing the three phases of the oil pattern - fresh, burn and double-burn."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cz0HLn9YkQM

2017 U.S. Open - Qualifying Round 1&2 from Flamingo Bowl in Liverpool, NY falls into 3 categories: Fresh - Burn and Double Burn oil. This videos is the highlights for each of the category showing how PBA bowlers deal with the many kinds of oil conditions.

+ Fresh starts at: 0:00
+ Burn starsts at: 25:18
+ Double burn starts at: 46:07 with Walter Ray William Jr's Huge loft
+ Double Burn Round 2 starts at: 1:10:53

[santos314]

So this is done intentionally to challenge them. I still don't get the lofting. Wouldn't they grab a plastic or entry level ball instead of trying to lift to that degree?

[Amyers]

So this is done intentionally to challenge them. I still don't get the lofting. Wouldn't they grab a plastic or entry level ball instead of trying to lift to that degree?

Plastic still hooks on the dry. Yes it is done as a challenge. I personally don't care for it at some point it's not bowling anymore in my opinion but they know that when they sign up. The heads are gone is why the loft even a low end or plastic ball can't roll right with no oil so they loft the ball to the mids where some oil still exists.

[bowl1820]

So this is done intentionally to challenge them. I still don't get the lofting. Wouldn't they grab a plastic or entry level ball instead of trying to lift to that degree?

Basically on the burn these guys are playing on there's only 2 options at most.

Move left and loft.

Or move far right and play the ditch, the trouble with that is there's no missing right and Taking your hand out of the ball and just using plastic ain't going to cut it.

If Walter Ray one of the best straight players is having to loft 4/5 arrow, that shows that playing the ditch probably isn't a good idea on those conditions. Even Norm Duke was playing 5th arrow and I think those guys have a enough of a understanding of the game and what balls to use, to know what to use and where they need to play the lanes.

[RobLV1]

Please permit me to paste yesterday's Facebook post from former U.S. Open Champion, Robert Smith:

"Ohhhhhh, the US Open. Being a past champion of this prestigious event, I am actually laughing at what is going on with lane play. LOFTING THE BALL IS NOT GOOD FOR THE SPORT!!!!! This game was NEVER intended to be played this way. And I made a living by having to play the lanes every day that way at some point.
With the players stronger than ever, and the equipment stronger than ever, the lane which hasn't changed parameters since its inception, is out dated. Oil patterns are ridiculous, outside of a short pattern, every right handed player ends up on the left side of the lane by game 4. And with 24 games on one run of oil, you see what happens.
The only way to fix this is to take away the equipment from the players. The angles that are played now were never even a consideration before 1992. There are exceptions to that with some us opens being played at 5th arrow, but that is only 5th arrow, not 2 ft past the 7th arrow like they are playing now. Not saying take away all the resin, but i dont think the upper tier of our game needs to have such strong equipment.
The game is hard to watch because the is no resemblance of bowling. No one at home can throw a ball 20 ft on the fly, and if they do they will be kicked out of their bowling center. Make it normal again USBC. please."

[Amyers]

Please permit me to paste yesterday's Facebook post from former U.S. Open Champion, Robert Smith:

"Ohhhhhh, the US Open. Being a past champion of this prestigious event, I am actually laughing at what is going on with lane play. LOFTING THE BALL IS NOT GOOD FOR THE SPORT!!!!! This game was NEVER intended to be played this way. And I made a living by having to play the lanes every day that way at some point.
With the players stronger than ever, and the equipment stronger than ever, the lane which hasn't changed parameters since its inception, is out dated. Oil patterns are ridiculous, outside of a short pattern, every right handed player ends up on the left side of the lane by game 4. And with 24 games on one run of oil, you see what happens.
The only way to fix this is to take away the equipment from the players. The angles that are played now were never even a consideration before 1992. There are exceptions to that with some us opens being played at 5th arrow, but that is only 5th arrow, not 2 ft past the 7th arrow like they are playing now. Not saying take away all the resin, but i dont think the upper tier of our game needs to have such strong equipment.
The game is hard to watch because the is no resemblance of bowling. No one at home can throw a ball 20 ft on the fly, and if they do they will be kicked out of their bowling center. Make it normal again USBC. please."

While I agree with the sentiment expressed here and Maximum Bob knows more about bowling than I ever will I'm not sure where this is an equipment issue. If it were the obvious solution would be to take Santos's idea and simply use plastic or less aggressive balls. Maybe I'm missing something.

[bowl1820]

Chad Murphy made a post on Facebook about the lofting, Basically he say's there's a shot there (over by the ditch) and all thoses pros out there just don't know what their doing lofting the ball.

Like Walter Ray Williams:
Neil Stremmel: So WRW is playing them wrong?
Chad Murphy: For his style and rev rate yes. It doesn’t change the fact he’s one of the best ever though, he is.
Neil Stremmel: For his style and rev rate he should never play them that deep. If there's a good shot right, I think he'd find it - or know he should be out there. I was sarcastically wondering why he thought he needed to be there...?


https://www.facebook.com/chad.murphy.393


Chad Murphy:
"U.S. Open update.

Three videos below. These three guys are in 7th, 12th and 14th. The first two were on the double burn game five last night. Then, Belmonte on the fresh yesterday. If you only saw these three videos would you think there was anything wrong with the event?

The three Bowlers using the extreme loft that has been circulated throughout the internet are in 64th, 69th and 128th at this point.

Which group is playing them correctly? The results would say, the first group. When it’s stated we “forced” everyone to loft, well, that looks suspect in these three videos. Based on the data, It looks like maybe we penalized those who did. To be clear, it’s a choice the players make based on what they see.

Today’s game features lofting but not the extremes you see pulled for effect on the internet. Again, there is always going to be some lofting, these guys are strong, powerful and so it’s going to be featured throughout most events at different times, especially the ones that require multiple angles to crown a champion. It has been this way for a long time but it’s not a requirement to throw it half way down the lane in the air as so many say who want to tear things down.

This event gives the Bowlers a different option but it goes against what they know to be true and so it’s a tough thing to get to.

If the lane hooks from the right for a right hander, you move left. For the most part, it’s always been that way. However, if the lane on the left breaks down and hooks (as has been the case this week) where there is oil to the right... why wouldn’t we move back to the right and play there? Most didn’t the first night, more did last night. It’s a culture shift. It’s not the first one in Bowling, it will also not be the last. Some guys still bowled well from in, they are going to do that, they are the best best Bowlers in the world.

No one is being forced to launch the ball as the videos indicate and opinions drive. There is oil on the lane to the right if the choice is made. These three pictures below show it in great detail.

Squad equity, 9, 8, 7 going into today for the top 24 with “C” squad having the most. C may have the most although, A squad gets B today and so I expect a run from a few folks who are currently down in the standings if they are still working at it. 208.4 average to make the top 24 at this point, 226 leads. Four lefties, 12 players with higher rev rates and 8 medium to lower. Things with this event are good, no matter what you read on the internet.

Good luck to everyone today. It’s been an incredible event so far. Match play is going to be extremely competitive to make the show. Looking forward to it."

[bowl1820]

Heres Ryan Shafer's post on why he withdrew.

Ryan Shafer
October 28 at 6:19pm ·

After watching B squad tonight and seeing the progression of the lanes, I have decided to WD from the US Open. Due to my physical limitations ( lack of significant ball speed, and plantar fasciitis and carpal tunnel) I determined it was counter productive to try and compete to the best of my ability on that condition. As it has been determined it is “ a required element” in today’s game to loft the gutter at the the US Open, I am no longer capable of doing that without potentially hurting myself. I would prefer to prepare for the WSOB in Reno starting November 6. It pains me to do this as I have always looked forward to this event and really wanted to win one of these in my career. But that time has passed. Thank you to all my family , friends and fans who came to watch this week. I apologize for my performance, or lack thereof .


I got to say, People seeing all that guttercap lofting and players withdrawing so they don't get hurt or embarrassed playing on this mess before the WSOB and all the upcoming bowling, isn't going to help the perception of bowling.

[Amyers]

Chad Murphy made a post on Facebook about the lofting, Basically he say's there's a shot there (over by the ditch) and all thoses pros out there just don't know what their doing lofting the ball.

Like Walter Ray Williams:
Neil Stremmel: So WRW is playing them wrong?
Chad Murphy: For his style and rev rate yes. It doesn’t change the fact he’s one of the best ever though, he is.
Neil Stremmel: For his style and rev rate he should never play them that deep. If there's a good shot right, I think he'd find it - or know he should be out there. I was sarcastically wondering why he thought he needed to be there...?
."[/I]

You really have to be some special kind of jack A S S to think you can tell WRW how he should have played a condition. WOW really?

[vdubtx]

Yeah, withdrawing from event before you even try the squad is a cop out I think. Yes, he has been on tour for a long time, but come on. Go out and experience the condition for your self, not by what others are doing and telling you about the condition.

[Amyers]

Yeah, withdrawing from event before you even try the squad is a cop out I think. Yes, he has been on tour for a long time, but come on. Go out and experience the condition for your self, not by what others are doing and telling you about the condition.

I've seen enough from home to know that if they sent me an engraved invitation with plane tickets I'd tell them where to go.

[fordman1]

Not being a Ryan Shafer fan I will tell you I have his back on this one.

[Aslan]

Please permit me to paste yesterday's Facebook post from former U.S. Open Champion, Robert Smith:
The game is hard to watch because the is no resemblance of bowling. No one at home can throw a ball 20 ft on the fly, and if they do they will be kicked out of their bowling center. Make it normal again USBC. please."
Agree 100%!

The game has changed far too much, far too quickly, and no longer resembles the sport it was 60-70 years ago. I know we've had this conversation 1000x...and trying to tame equipment is probably a lost cause...but something has to be done and it likely has to be oil conditions. The equipment manufacturers will never pull back...especially when there is demand by players with less rev rate for balls that will help them hook. And getting rid of 2-handed bowling...blah blah blah...insert fight of the century if we bring that topic up. The ONLY option is for the USBC to take a new, stronger approach to oil patterns.

I don't know enough about patterns to offer a solution...many have been offered here and elsewhere...but it's getting rediculous (a word I can't spell). The worst part is...PRACTICE. When oil patterns are SO SO SO important to the ultimate ball reaction...then serious bowlers can't ever practice on league conditions other than the 10-15 minutes before league play. "Practice" becomes spending an hour trying to figure out if your form/timing/release is off...your line is off...or the lane is either bone dry or the oil has been pushed to the breakpoint by house balls.


Heres Ryan Shafer's post on why he withdrew.

Ryan Shafer
October 28 at 6:19pm ·

After watching B squad tonight and seeing the progression of the lanes, I have decided to WD from the US Open. Due to my physical limitations ( lack of significant ball speed, and plantar fasciitis and carpal tunnel) I determined it was counter productive to try and compete to the best of my ability on that condition. As it has been determined it is “ a required element” in today’s game to loft the gutter at the the US Open, I am no longer capable of doing that without potentially hurting myself. I would prefer to prepare for the WSOB in Reno starting November 6. It pains me to do this as I have always looked forward to this event and really wanted to win one of these in my career. But that time has passed. Thank you to all my family , friends and fans who came to watch this week. I apologize for my performance, or lack thereof .


I got to say, People seeing all that guttercap lofting and players withdrawing so they don't get hurt or embarrassed playing on this mess before the WSOB and all the upcoming bowling, isn't going to help the perception of bowling.


Yeah, withdrawing from event before you even try the squad is a cop out I think. Yes, he has been on tour for a long time, but come on. Go out and experience the condition for your self, not by what others are doing and telling you about the condition.
Normally I don't like the idea either...but he's not the first person to withdraw due to injury concerns...and when you got silly stuff like this going on...I can see his point.


Not being a Ryan Shafer fan I will tell you I have his back on this one.
Agree.

[ALazySavage]

Similar to many of our discussions, this is just a tough situation; there are so many factors that are causing this and for the most part you can't do anything. Laying out the concerns brought up you have the following; equipment advances, lane conditions, lane specifications, 2-handed bowling, and bowler ability.

The bowling community is not going to do anything more to limit the bowling equipment - bowling companies would go nuts if you messed with this "wonderful" situation of bowlers replacing equipment at an astonishing rate to run and grab the newest piece. While there would be a rush to grab a bunch on equipment if there was an announcement about grandfathering equipment that was already in the market this would be short-lived. I do think this is the second biggest problem, but the hit to the equipment market may be too much to bear at this point.

2-handed bowling/bowler ability is another discussion point. While we would be naïve to think that equipment doesn't play a major factor into scoring, there is a thought that the bowlers are getting better. Compared to the 90s there are so many more resources to get information on the game and coaching. There are sites like this one and bowling this month that has the information at your fingertips. YouTube allows someone to sit at home and watch instructional and competitions on demand. You can even send in videos of your bowling to a certified coach and get legit advice. Two handed bowling also creates a roll advantage (there are also some disadvantages) that can increase scoring, especially when encountering easier conditions.

Talking about lane specifications not matching the current projection of the game is a moot point. You can't have all of these bowling alleys changing specifications because of the upfront cost.

That leaves lane conditions as the solution/Band-Aid to this problem, but that has problems itself. For almost any house you can set up the conditions to avoid the lofting situation you see here if that is what you want to do, the tour players wouldn't have a problem with harder conditions. The issue is the moment a house changes a condition in a league it takes two weeks of under average bowling (essentially any 215 average bowler who should really be a 200 at best) and they will whine non-stop about the situation. The expectation has been set to these bowlers from the other factors that they are a certain level bowler and they can't handle the fact that they are not as good as they believe. I have seen this with Nationals, Arizona State Tournament, etc. - bowlers can't blindly go up there and hit 210 they don't want to go back. Arizona State a few years back put down the White and Blue patterns (nothing crazy) and made the patterns public. All that happened was you watched bowler after bowler crumble because they didn't have 4-5 boards of area and afterwards many complained that they will never return.

Many bowlers anymore just want to walk in, never work on their game, and shoot big scores. And to those who will complain that they don't have the time to practice twice a week to get to this level (an argument I have seen on this site during the last discussion I had on this), a scratch golfer doesn't just walk on the course and shot 72 they work on it.

[fordman1]

You could ban 2 handed bowling before it is the only style you see.
Ban stepping off your approach. Use a side foul line you can't to out side the out side edge of the gutter or it is a foul. Even oil patterns can be adjusted. Lofting the ball too far down the lane.

[ALazySavage]

Obviously oil patterns can be adjusted, that is clearly the main answer with this. The other solutions I have issues with:

No 2 handed bowling: Basically the telecast has marveled over this style of bowling and it has been around long enough that it is tough to say "get rid of it". Jason Belmonte's first title was in 2009, so that is 8 years in which bowlers could start emulating him after he won, there are a lot of junior bowlers who bowl like this, and to do so will likely remove a decent chunk of the younger bowling population.

Limiting the horizontal ranges of the lanes requires all bowling alleys to install new foul lights and puts risk to any long-form event for high rev bowlers (once the oil is gone in the middle you are toast in this scenario). Also, with the new foul lights you have to make sure the trail leg does not set these off. The logistics alone are going to be tough to enforce this change due to the new equipment costs.

How far is too far for lofting down the lane, also this would require more equipment to track a legal vs. illegal shot.

When you say "stepping off your approach" are you talking about not posting the shot (as in falling off at release)? While this is a good bowling key to follow, first enforcement would be a nightmare and second how to you react to some sticking or sliding too much on the approach and catching themselves? If you are talking about starting behind the "line" of an approach that doesn't have a step up you are again asking for a lot of enforcement to be added.

***You cannot do any of the illegal shot tracking by eye, it has to be determined by machine or you will have so many issues with "close" situations.

[J Anderson]

When you say "stepping off your approach" are you talking about not posting the shot (as in falling off at release)? While this is a good bowling key to follow, first enforcement would be a nightmare and second how to you react to some sticking or sliding too much on the approach and catching themselves? If you are talking about starting behind the "line" of an approach that doesn't have a step up you are again asking for a lot of enforcement to be added.

***You cannot do any of the illegal shot tracking by eye, it has to be determined by machine or you will have so many issues with "close" situations.

I think what Fordman1 means is that bowlers should have to stay on their own approach and not drift over onto the approach of the next lane over to loft the gutter cap. Might still be hard to enforce. I'd be fine with such a rule as long as it only covered your slide foot. If it was no part of your body could encroach on the next lane's approach I would probably commit a lateral foul with my trail leg every time I shot at a ten pin.

[J Anderson]

Agree 100%!

The game has changed far too much, far too quickly, and no longer resembles the sport it was 60-70 years ago. I know we've had this conversation 1000x...and trying to tame equipment is probably a lost cause...but something has to be done and it likely has to be oil conditions. The equipment manufacturers will never pull back...especially when there is demand by players with less rev rate for balls that will help them hook. And getting rid of 2-handed bowling...blah blah blah...insert fight of the century if we bring that topic up. The ONLY option is for the USBC to take a new, stronger approach to oil patterns.

I don't know enough about patterns to offer a solution...many have been offered here and elsewhere...but it's getting rediculous (a word I can't spell). The worst part is...PRACTICE. When oil patterns are SO SO SO important to the ultimate ball reaction...then serious bowlers can't ever practice on league conditions other than the 10-15 minutes before league play. "Practice" becomes spending an hour trying to figure out if your form/timing/release is off...your line is off...or the lane is either bone dry or the oil has been pushed to the breakpoint by house balls.


What do you mean "60-70 years ago"? It doesn't resemble what it was 40 years ago.

As for practice, yes, it would be nice to practice on lane conditions similar to what you're going to encounter in league, not necessarily fresh oil all the time but maybe like the start of the second game in a league with 5 person teams. Realistically, most centers don't have enough serious bowlers to warrant oiling for open bowling. Should that stop us from practicing? No!
There are things you can practice when you're not even at the bowling alley. I bough a Summer Pass for the local Bowlero. The kindest thing I can say is that conditions were variable. The only constants were the noise level and the dim lighting. When the approaches were bad I worked on one step and no step drills. When the approaches were okay, I worked on other things.

[fordman1]

John is correct. Just bowl on your lane. Don't use the bowlers lane next to you for your approach. Funny how those same bowlers (lofters) can throw the ball at their spares with lofting the gutter. You wouldn't get away with that in my league. The manager is on my team :D

[DMS]

EVERY sport has seen it's players get bigger, stronger and more technically knowledgeable. Meh.

EVERY sport has seen at least incremental advances in equipment. Meh.

EVERY sport has left the playing field, itself, pretty much as it was when the sport originated. Notably, football has the artificial / natural turf distinction, and in horse racing there's now synthetic versus natural dirt tracks. Meh.

So, instead of reinventing the wheel, why not just look at similar situations? And here, I would direct you to a cousin sport... Candlepin (and Duckpin) bowling. To whit:

They've had a lofting limitation forever... It's right in the rules. They have no trouble enforcing it... There's major championships held in both formats that go reasonably without controversy.

You could chuck a Candlepin ball all the way to the pin deck... overhand... if you wanted to! I don't know if it'd improve your scoring potential, but it'd be NO PROBLEM to do it.

I think this whole thing stems from one thing.... A bunch of fat old dudes that wrote the rules for our sport in the 1890's never imagined human beings with enough strength and mastery of physics to loft a sixteen pound bowling ball 20 feet down a lane. They'd have thought "That's just impossible!" Remember... Weighing 250 lbs., drinking HARD, and smoking a pound of tobacco a day were considered signs of affluence. Our ancestors where in abysmally BAD shape. The modern 'health and strength' culture didn't arise until the 1920's.

I think this entire debate could be solved by instituting a 'loft line' just like they currently have in CP and DP, and enforce it exactly like they do. It's a completely known factor to them.

I don't know if they do it with lights, cameras or just simple line judges but they DO police it... and well enough for everyone to agree on it's enforcement. SO simple. BTW... Tennis is still officiated by line judges... using human eyes. Works for them. Same for most field sports, too... it's officiated by human referees. Instant playbacks are a very recent phenomena, as are photo finishes for racing (don't even get me started on that!... I've felt it's sting too many times! <g>).

Loft line on the lane. Solves the problem. Next?

[jamoke]

Hmmm, Candlepin lanes have a lob line marked at 10 feet down-lane of the foul line.
During televised matches and I assume during championship matches, there is a "Lob Line Judge" that sits over a few alleys at the 10ft lob line.

Not really sure how that could work during the Open.

[DMS]

Hmmm, Candlepin lanes have a lob line marked at 10 feet down-lane of the foul line.
During televised matches and I assume during championship matches, there is a "Lob Line Judge" that sits over a few alleys at the 10ft lob line.

Not really sure how that could work during the Open.

Well, ideally we'd develop a sensor like a foul line sensor. Simple engineering problem. They've already got speed and scoring cameras on the ball return covers, so there's already power there. Just be one more blister on the ball return covers.

This issue would be so easy to solve. My real suspicion is that nobody REALLY wants to solve it. The real answer is to just play what the lanes are giving you. Norm Duke wasn't lofting the gutters... He was just playing a really inside line. Bowlers complain a lot when conditions don't suit their style.

[bowl1820]

Well, ideally we'd develop a sensor like a foul line sensor......This issue would be so easy to solve.

A lot of problems are easy to solve if you can throw money at it to take care of the development, equipment and installation costs etc. Then of course there's determining whose going to pony up that money and there's the determining the rules of where the line should be, the penalty for violation of the rule etc.

A simpler solution would be to just not use the extreme conditions (Double burn) that caused the use of the extreme lofting seen in the Open in the first place.

That kind of extreme lofting IMO really isn't going to be a problem in leagues, Leagues generally do not have double burn conditions (As much as some player might like to think they have them).

Also if players start going on to the approaches of the adjacent lanes during league to loft the gutters, that's not going to sit well with the players on those lanes and the situation will most likely police itself. After some complaining and/or someone tripping or running into another player.

[fordman1]

Or mandatory re oiling after every 3 games.

[RobLV1]

That kind of extreme lofting IMO really isn't going to be a problem in leagues, Leagues generally do not have double burn conditions (As much as some player might like to think they have them).

The problem with putting the pros on conditions that separate them further from league bowlers is that the league bowlers lose interest in watching the pros on TV. No viewers = no broadcasts = no pro bowlers... it's just that simple.

[Amyers]

The problem with putting the pros on conditions that separate them further from league bowlers is that the league bowlers lose interest in watching the pros on TV. No viewers = no broadcasts = no pro bowlers... it's just that simple.

Truth. I didn't watch a single frame of the open this year for that very reason.