League Payouts

[PBizme]

I'm in a non-sanctioned league that has never had any prizes, but they're considering building a small prize fund. The proposed payout structure is paying out every team and from what I can tell that's pretty standard in bowling. Some people favor a structure that would only pay the top few teams in order to have bigger prizes without paying more each week.

What's the reasoning behind paying out all teams? My best guess is that it's to prevent teams from not paying later in the season when they're clearly out of contention for the top spots. Is there another reason?

[Amyers]

Partially to make sure teams don't quite but it also feels better when everyone gets something. You will notice some leagues have more top heavy payout schedules most big money leagues tend to pay more towards the winners than the lower finishers.

[bowl1820]

What's the reasoning behind paying out all teams? My best guess is that it's to prevent teams from not paying later in the season when they're clearly out of contention for the top spots. Is there another reason?

As Amyers said everybody likes to get something, They don't want to fell like they are paying into a prizefund and not get anything themselves And that's a consideration, a team feels it's out of contention and not going to get anything yeah they can quit then the prizefund is short.

As for the structure of the prizelist, You don't want it too top heavy, but you don't want it too flat either.

Top heavy the lower places feel slighted, Too flat and there's no incentive to compete to move up in the standings.

Sometimes if you don't have a lot of money in the prizefund, You could do a flatter prizelist just add a cheap trophy & plaque to 1st&2nd place. You could also see if you can get local business's to donate thing's for prizes that team places could also win.

[fordman1]

Being in a non Certified league is risky. You have no assurances that you will get anything even if you win. It would be better if the prize fund is really small to have a night out for the league at a nice restaurant of bar. Honor the best team and bowlers at the banquet or have it at a hall.

[Blomer]

In one of my leagues, weekly rate is cheap, $10. No matter what everyone gets the same amount of money, mostly from the 50/50. In my other league, 50/50 is split evenly and then each teams winnings are slightly different based on where they are in the standings. But it’s never a huge difference. I joined a new league this year and not sure how it will be done.

[GrumpyCatFace]

I just finished my first league - a sanctioned fall league.

On the treasurers report, it shows that they took 2/3 of the money for “lane fees”. Is this typical?

[bowl1820]

I just finished my first league - a sanctioned fall league.

On the treasurers report, it shows that they took 2/3 of the money for “lane fees”. Is this typical?

If your referring to the lineage that the league pays the house, That's sounds pretty close it would depend on what the house is charging for lineage, any extra monies added.

Example:

Here the "League Fees" (The amount you pay each night to bowl) is $15 a night. The breakdown is $11.50 Lineage, .50¢ Secretary Fee, $3.00 for the Prizefund.

There are 32 four player teams and we bowl for 36 weeks, Total fees $69,120.00 - So Lineage:$52,992.00, Sec. $2304.00, PF $13,824.00 + (other added monies) PF total: $14,592.00


So $52,992.00 is about 2/3rds or little more

[GrumpyCatFace]

Wowza. So we paid $17/wk, and $12 to the house. That’s $4 a game, which isn’t terrible, but I guess I’d better take advantage of the free bowling.

[boatman37]

We paid $17.50 per night. 5 man teams 17 teams. So roughly $53,000 into fund. My team got $2.90/game each. Not sure what other teams got but should be close.

[Phonetek]

So $52,992.00 is about 2/3rds or little more

Now does everyone see why leagues are a bowling centers bread and butter? $4 a game would be considered our "regular price". I believe but don't quote me that leagues at our house pay $3 a game. Regardless, more or less leagues fill the lanes for us in the fall in most cases even $2 it's guaranteed money for us. On the same night without a league we definitely wouldn't fill the lanes with open bowlers every week. Not to mention open bowlers rarely buy bowling supplies, tape, new skin and such. In addition to the bar money. That's why we take good care of our leagues. Oh and league bowlers never pay shoe rental and $2 a game for open bowling (guests included) unless we have a cheaper special.

As far as prize funds, it seemed to me that each league was different. Some brought in trophies, others trinkets or free bowling balls and some did nothing no money, no prizes. One in particular last Thursday divided it on a percentage, first place got the most. They paid extra per week toward prize money and also threw the money from pots that nobody had won like the mystery pot on the pile. First - third place got trophies, they passed out plaques and patches for the high scores, most improved bowler award, high average, most strikes in a row and so on. Like all our leagues it was un-certified but they seemed to take care of the prizes pretty well. I'm happy to say they also took very good of their bartender (me) as well. It sucks I have to wait all summer for these guys to get back together. They were a bunch of goofs but they were fun. I'm tempted to jump on the pile and join them next year because it would be fun but since they tip great I think I'd rather work it instead.

[fordman1]

We pay $23 per week for 33 weeks. $1 of the fee is for 50\50 tickets. You get one ticket every week in your pay envelope.
We collect $91,080 in a season. Lineage is $9.80 for a total of $38,808 which is 42% of weekly dues.
$6,549 covers awards, sec-treas, each half champion and over all champ, expenses and banquet.
That leaves $19.45 per point on a 7 point system.

[TheBearAK]

The house usually has a set fee per week. This year ours was $15 per bowler per week. Then we had a $1 secretary fund and $4 prize fund for a total of $20 per week per bowler.

I've found that a typical league here has Place Money and Point Money. Place money typically only pays 1st through 5th, but I've seen them also pay down to 8th.

Point Money takes the remainder of the prize fund (after Place Money and Team/Individual achievements) and divides it by the number of points won by each team. So all teams get money.

Example:

1st Place $500 + point money
2nd Place $300 + point money
3rd Place $100 + point money
4th Place Point Money
5th Place Point Money
6th Place Point Money
etc.

Of course, amounts depend on what is paid in. Another league is quite large and the fee is $22 + a one time sponsor fee. $6 per bowler goes into the prize fund each week. $15,360 this last year.

I was the secretary on a mixed league and we had something that seems to be unusual. A banquet fund. Each person was paying $1 per week into the banquet fund, which meant at the end of the year you could have a decent banquet ($32 a plate, effectively).

[TheBearAK]

Well, first off, if the league doesn't have that big of a prize fund, the bowlers are there for the fun of the league and not to win money. So that said, what would it take to actually win money.

Lets say your league is $15 per week per person for a 4 person team, going for 32 weeks. 15 x 32 = $480, x4 = $1920 So first place would need to be $1920 just for them to break even.

I've bowled on 2 mixed leagues for about 30 years now. Been the secretary on both for at least 25 years. Neither league has had a big enough prize fund for first place to break even unless we gave them half the prize fund. Prize fund has varied over the years due to number of teams. I think the highest I ever saw was near $7000 for 16 teams.

Our mens league is a different story. $6 per week per bowler for 32 weeks goes to the prize fund. This year we had 14 teams. $420 a week x 32 weeks = $13,440.

[taxexpert2]

Trying to do what is fair to bowlers and to me as secretary. Any comments please.

The league is a senior league which means we can have lots of problems with people starting the league and not finishing. When I was secretary the first time three years ago we had 20 teams with mostly four persons on a team. The secretary fund was $.25 per week (out of the total paid of $11.00) per week per bowler so for a 34 week season if all the teams has 4 bowlers for the whole year that meant as secretary I had $680 fund to cover my costs (costs are about $75-$100) and a fee for me. The rest of the money was for lineage, end of year banquet, prize fund and fun day.

This year it looks like we will be down to a total of 49-52 bowlers. That means the secretary fund for a 34 week season will be only $442 which is as you can see quite a decrease from the $680 in the past. By the same token prize money will be significantly down. The alleys have not changed their fee for lineage which is $7.00 (which if you are absent you do not pay). But what can I say to these bowlers to make them see that this is not a reasonable way to run a league. We could eliminate the banquet fund and have a buffet in the bowling alley for less than the $20.00 the venue currently charges for a sitdown served dinner. I understand the appeal of the banquet, but it is difficult to justify that expense when prize money and everything else is so much decreased. Thanks for any input.

[GrumpyCatFace]

I think this is a big part of the decline in bowling. People want to at a bare minimum win something for winning a league that takes up most of the year.

- why does a secretary need $500 for punching the numbers in?

- why do centers charge full price for the bowling?

- why on earth would you pay anything to the second half of finishing places?

There is no other sport where you “might break even” winning a competition. There’s no point in doing it at all, except to be around other bowlers and get your name on a sheet of paper.

I mean, I get it. I love to compete. But there’s really no reason to care who wins then, if you’re all going to get participation trophies.

This is an era of poker tournaments - in which typically only the top 10% of finishers get anything. And that’s great! It’s accepted by the people doing it because they want to win money - as well as a trophy.

Bowling leagues need to catch on to this or die.

[GrumpyCatFace]

Regarding the centers lineage fees - you’re getting a guaranteed full house of people every week, buying drinks, accessories, etc. what business would expect to pay zero for that?? Even at half price, it would be a steal for them, from a marketing standpoint.

[taxexpert2]

I guess I would really like to hear from ppl who have been secretaries of leagues where there are a bunch of senior citizens who complain everytime something doesn't work for them - never their fault. Who have been bowling for centuries and go back to "the good old days" where all leagues had banquets. These are the secretaries who know the vagarities of working with an older group. The secretary needs to get something for dealing with these "grumpy" old people just in terms of the aggravation they can be. Admittedly I am one of them and can be grumpy myself. But as an example - I called every person in this league to remind them of when we start - because the captains cannot be bothered to have a captains meeting and take on this responsibility themselves. Admittedly the person who ran this before me did the league a disservice but it is very very hard to get older people to change their ways. Then the alley says they have heard from five people in the league asking when it starts - AFTER I have called them and talked to each one.

[GrumpyCatFace]

Lol point taken. I got a little carried away.

But I can guarantee you that a whole lot of other people feel the same.

[Amyers]

Lol point taken. I got a little carried away.

But I can guarantee you that a whole lot of other people feel the same.

it depends on the goals of the league. I've bowled in league where the winners get paid and not much for everyone else and I've bowled more even payouts in leagues. It depends also on the house and how much in open bowlers they are turning away from having the leagues. At least here locally open bowlers may bowl less but they spend way more at the bar, at the food court then league bowlers who try to sneak their own drinks in. If its compared to a Tuesday and a open center with no leagues or a Friday which is full either way you may be making a lot more with the open bowlers.

[GrumpyCatFace]

Sounds like a pretty simple business decision.

- Fridays, you probably don't have leagues, because you'll make more from open bowlers.

- Weekdays, when the place would be empty, load up on leagues at half or 3/4 pricing. Make sure there's an incentive for winning.

If you figure half of the weekly "lane fee" take as an advertising budget, to pack your business, it would be a no-brainer. Enforce your no drinks rule, and make sure it's a fun time for people. Maybe on the "Men's League" night, tell some off-color jokes on the mic, and get the mood going. Set your music to the theme of the league - country/classic for Sr League, for example.

These things are not hard to figure out, but bowling center owners don't seem very business savvy types.

[RobLV1]

Sounds like a pretty simple business decision.

- Fridays, you probably don't have leagues, because you'll make more from open bowlers.

- Weekdays, when the place would be empty, load up on leagues at half or 3/4 pricing. Make sure there's an incentive for winning.

If you figure half of the weekly "lane fee" take as an advertising budget, to pack your business, it would be a no-brainer. Enforce your no drinks rule, and make sure it's a fun time for people. Maybe on the "Men's League" night, tell some off-color jokes on the mic, and get the mood going. Set your music to the theme of the league - country/classic for Sr League, for example.

These things are not hard to figure out, but bowling center owners don't seem very business savvy types.

You can't take what you know from your local center and apply it unilaterally. I've bowled league in Northern Ohio. I've bowled league in California. I've bowled league in North Carolina. Now I bowl league in Las Vegas. The centers in these four areas of the country have virtually nothing in common. It may be a little harder to figure out than you think!

[GrumpyCatFace]

Meh.. apply as needed to your business. If you've got a packed house of open bowlers every night, then there's no point to having a league at all. Might be time to expand the place, or build another one.

Around here at least, the places are completely empty all week, and have a moderate crowd on weekends - birthday parties, etc.

The business justification for a league is to get people in the place. It's doesn't need to be billed at full price, it's marketing. Those league bowlers will be in more regularly to practice, buy more accessories, and support the place better than open bowlers. Bill it at 75% or so, and keep the business viable, instead of bleeding them for every penny, and killing your sport.

[Phonetek]

I have to agree with Rob on this one. Every center is different and it's not even geographic. For example: Saturday when I left work we were fully booked and for the rest of the night with reservations. On my way home I stopped at another center to fill out paperwork for one of the leagues I joined, there were a small handful of cars in the lot and maybe 5 or 6 lanes in use out of 30, nobody in the bar. The place was dead. Each center has to play to their strengths to stay out of the red.

Leagues are the bread and butter, it's definite money every week for the duration. Open bowling is very dependant on many things. If it's 70's or 80's and sunny outside chances are you'll be dead. If suddenly it starts pouring then you'll have a line at the door. I've seen it happen many times. Now that school is or has gone back depending on the area, that will have a big impact as well. Depending on open bowling is risky, leagues are a sure thing.

[fordman1]

I did a little home work before posting.
Our center has 14 adult leagues.
It has 1200 league bowlers.
Lineage from these leagues is about $400,000
I am only guessing but have been told that should cover most of the expenses.
Open bowling, party's etc. is probably $150,000
The profit comes from food and alcohol.
Friday night There is probably 100 people watching the 120 bowlers.
2/3's of them drinking. Plus the people in the bar for karaoke.
Party bowling places might make more for a while then the new thing comes along and they go broke like the local hot spots do.

Top heavy payoff leagues sound good for a while but if you don't make the top payoff in a few years you go away like many of those league do.
More fair distribution league seem to keep teams for longer.

[GrumpyCatFace]

Sounds like leagues are the “bread, butter, cake, and icing” too.

People will only overpay for participation trophies so long.

[Phonetek]

This is probably a stupid question that I SHOULD know the answer to but who is supposed to provide the trophies? Is it the center, the league or USBC on a certified league? Personally I could care less about yet another chunk of wood, metal and plastic to sit on a shelf that I rarely look at. I have enough from years past and some have been in boxes in the attic for 20 years or longer. LOL

[GrumpyCatFace]

This is probably a stupid question that I SHOULD know the answer to but who is supposed to provide the trophies? Is it the center, the league or USBC on a certified league? Personally I could care less about yet another chunk of wood, metal and plastic to sit on a shelf that I rarely look at. I have enough from years past and some have been in boxes in the attic for 20 years or longer. LOL

Lol if you’re referring to my comment, I meant the notion that you “might break even” after winning a bowling league, because every team needs a payout of some kind. Not physical trophies.

[GrumpyCatFace]

And apparently, the center needs to be paid full price for the bowling, and the “secretary” needs to draw a salary.

[fordman1]

What are you talking about? Your bowling fee is lineage, prize fund including awards and sec. fee. You obviously don't know what a secretary/treasurer does.

[GrumpyCatFace]

What are you talking about? Your bowling fee is lineage, prize fund including awards and sec. fee. You obviously don't know what a secretary/treasurer does.

I’m talking about all 3, actually.

[J Anderson]

This is probably a stupid question that I SHOULD know the answer to but who is supposed to provide the trophies? Is it the center, the league or USBC on a certified league? Personally I could care less about yet another chunk of wood, metal and plastic to sit on a shelf that I rarely look at. I have enough from years past and some have been in boxes in the attic for 20 years or longer. LOL

It’s up to the league to decide whether or not to give out trophies. Sometimes the bowling center will provide some of the tropies for a league as part of the contract. One of my leagues gets a total of ten or twelve trophies, 5 bottles to be given out on bottle night, and 5 gift cards for a local supermarket at Thanksgiving.

[mc_runner]

I’m talking about all 3, actually.

Hey, if you disagree with the secretary getting a salary (which usually comes out to barely anything per bowler per week, typically it ends up just rounding the dollar) for their work; volunteer to become secretary and do it for free. Everyone wins that way.