Handicap and Bowling

[TTREX]

Sadly we no longer have scratch leagues, that went away 20 years ago, and even then there was only one that i knew of.

My question is this: How can USBC claim that higher average bowlers have the advantage?

When i look at league standing sheets every week over the last 20 years, the top three teams always getting into the roll off have the highest handicap of every team in the league. yes the highest handicap teams always stay at the top majority of the time, while the higher average teams stay in the middle or down towards the bottom of the standing sheet.

The teams who average over 200 which are few lose more often than not to those who keep there average low. The lower average bowler for example a lady who's average is low rolls a 221 game scratch and her total with handicap is over 300, actually it was 314 total. She with handicap beats a guy who rolls games over 230 scratch on a regular basis, but only when she has to.

This happens every week, every month, year after year. So how does the high average bowler have the advantage?

[Amyers]

Sounds like you have more problems with bowlers purposely deflating their averages than you do handicap. If people aren't purposely defrauding the system its pretty easy to understand:
a 200 average bowler in a 80% 220 average system gets 16 pins of handicap, a 150 average bowler gets 56 pins. The 200 average bowler bowls his average 200 so he get 216 that game. The 150 average bowler has a slightly better than average night he rolls 157 so his total is 215. The lower average bowler still loses in this instance even though he technically bowled better than his average that's where the USBC claims the higher average bowler has an advantage.

[mc_runner]

The way leagues have started working around that is either with capped min/max team averages around here in the more competitive leagues as well as a 10-pin drop rule. I may be lucky, but no league I've ever been in has had a real issue with anyone playing around with handicaps (including some big time money leagues)

[fordman1]

set up your league rules correctly and it isn't important. We use 90% from 1100. All team averages are capped at 1050. You can have 2 240, a 200, a 190, and a 180 average bowler and be fine. Over the last 30 years we have had high and low average bowlers win the league. We use a 21 game cushion with a 10 pin drop rule. About 3 years ago we kicked a bowler out of the league for average management. He had a 168 average in a mixed league with 66 games. He bowled in 5 other leagues and all were between 200-215 "but" he never got 21 games in any of those leagues. We go back 3 years and find the highest avg. of 21 games or more. Actually after being told he would be rerated he quit. I reported it to the local USBC and tried to get him banned.

[boatman37]

In our league we use an 80% of 230. The team with the highest average in our league usually finishes closer to the bottom than the top (currently they are 7th of 8 in their division). These guys averages are 200, 220, 208, 213 and 221. My team has the highest total scratch and highest total handicap included, in our division and our averages are 196, 201, 200, 198, and 173 (we are in a different division but both of us are top dogs in our division in terms of total pins (both scratch and handicap). Odd that the team with the highest handicap score in the league could be in next to last but they are. Anyway, their averages are so high that it is tough for them to break a 300 handicap game where our team does it once in awhile. We have 3 guys on our team that can roll 270's any given game. Add their 20-30 handicap and they beat the 230 average bowler that rolls a 280 or even a 290.

So I do see your point in your question. We have both sides of it here in our league. 2 divisions. Us in 1st with highest scratch and handicap total and them in next to last with highest scratch and highest handicap (total). We have 26174 scratch and 30803 handicap while they have 28633 and 30820. I think alot of it is them having very consistent scores where we seem to have 2 or 3 guys do very good when 2 or 3 do average so we end up with a higher total (and i'm usually the one just doing average...lol).

[TTREX]

I truly appreciate all of your input, it shows me just how bad it is here where I live. I will reveal where this is once i move and get settled in somewhere else. I also notice where you all are from state wise, as i observe your input it will help me know who are most honest..etc, This will help me in making choices of where I want to move to. I think it is awesome that there are places where people run the bowling leagues and tournaments in a fair and honest way.

One of our leagues has the handicap set at 100% of 235. There is only one guy who can average 235, but he only done it one year. When he joined the league it was set at 90% of 225. But when he joined the league they raised it to !00% of 235 so that he in there mind would not have an advantage.

[J Anderson]

Sadly we no longer have scratch leagues, that went away 20 years ago, and even then there was only one that i knew of.

My question is this: How can USBC claim that higher average bowlers have the advantage?

When i look at league standing sheets every week over the last 20 years, the top three teams always getting into the roll off have the highest handicap of every team in the league. yes the highest handicap teams always stay at the top majority of the time, while the higher average teams stay in the middle or down towards the bottom of the standing sheet.

The teams who average over 200 which are few lose more often than not to those who keep there average low. The lower average bowler for example a lady who's average is low rolls a 221 game scratch and her total with handicap is over 300, actually it was 314 total. She with handicap beats a guy who rolls games over 230 scratch on a regular basis, but only when she has to.

This happens every week, every month, year after year. So how does the high average bowler have the advantage?

About ten years ago, the USBC published the results of a four year study of handicaps. I do not know the details of the study, and not being a professional researcher, I wouldn’t be able to assess the validity of their methods. The gist of the study was even at 100% handicap, 70% of the time the league was won by a team with an average above the mean average of the league. This does not mean that the team with the best average is going to win every year. It does mean that the top half of the league has a big advantage over the lower half.
It seems to me that Amyers has it right and you’re surrounded by a bunch of sandbaggers.

[TTREX]

J Anderson you are 100% correct, majority of this bowling town are professional sandbaggers. They teach every new bowler who joins to do this. I am talking about people on the local board of directors, they will deny it if anyone confronts them, but they do teach and promote sandbagging. I am too honest, i refuse to conform and they hate me for it. I will move away from here and never look back. Thanks again for all the input, it is great to know that this is an isolated area doing this and that it is not wide spread.

[boatman37]

Too add to what I posted, our fall/winter league is 90% on 230 and our summer league is 80% of total team averages (only 2 man teams). So if team 1 has a 400 average and team 2 has a 380 average then team 2 gets 16 pins. Our summer league the highest average was 230 and the next was a 229. It was a bigger money league and we had top bowlers from all around (about 80 bowlers). Our fall/winter league I think last year the highest average was about 225. So far this year the top averages are 221.13, 220.67, and 220.67. The first few weeks of this league we had a couple guys in the 230's so they were over the handicap max.

[classygranny]

Our Friday morning mixed league has a 100% handicap of 230. If you think about it, what this actually means is that the team that bowls the most over their average (or the least under average) will win. Mentally, I think the bowlers feel this is a very fair method of handicapping.

If I have a 170 average and 60 pins handicap and bowl a 180, only 10 pins over my average - I would have a 240 handicap game. If my partner averages 200 and has 30 pins of handicap bowls a 208, then she would have a handicap game of 238 and I would win. Which in essence, I bowled 10 pins better than my average and she only bowled 8 over, so I should win.

[TTREX]

Our Friday morning mixed league has a 100% handicap of 230. If you think about it, what this actually means is that the team that bowls the most over their average (or the least under average) will win. Mentally, I think the bowlers feel this is a very fair method of handicapping.

If I have a 170 average and 60 pins handicap and bowl a 180, only 10 pins over my average - I would have a 240 handicap game. If my partner averages 200 and has 30 pins of handicap bowls a 208, then she would have a handicap game of 238 and I would win. Which in essence, I bowled 10 pins better than my average and she only bowled 8 over, so I should win.


In a case like yours it works...

But here our bowlers have the ability to average 180 to 190, and they can pull out 220 games at will, but they keep there average at around 116 to 120. In this case it is terribly easy for them to break 100 or shoot 120 every week, every game ,no problem. They only shoot 220 games when they have to as when bowling a team who has 190 to 201 average.

The higher average team lets say they have a good day and shoot 10 pins above there average shooting 211, the 116 average bowler shoots 221 against the higher average bowler's 211. The 116 average bowler who shoots 221 with a handicap of over 100+ pins gets a total score well over 300 than the higher average bowler who cannot accomplish this period!

In your case it works. In our case it never works!! Some of our bagger's will not be so extreme as this but some do. The ones who don't try to be so obvious will keep there average in the low 150's but can bowl 220 to 230 when they need to.

No one here care's to do anything about it as it's the best way to win all the roll off's, majority are bagger's, and therefore you cannot vote them out. They are the majority! Most all of our honest non-bagger's have gave up bowling, we only have a few who refuse to resort to bagging.

So where does that leave me?? I chose to quit. I refuse to give them my money, i will not be a sucker to their game.
Others like me chose to quit as we cannot compete with this. We still go practice, but we choose to not bowl league and give them our money because of how they work the system.

The league handicap is set to 100% of 235.

So why average 235 when all you have to do is average 120 and you still get 235..??

That is how they do it. That is how they work the system.

[boatman37]

In a case like yours it works...

But here our bowlers have the ability to average 180 to 190, and they can pull out 220 games at will, but they keep there average at around 116 to 120. In this case it is terribly easy for them to break 100 or shoot 120 every week, every game ,no problem. They only shoot 220 games when they have to as when bowling a team who has 190 to 201 average.

The higher average team lets say they have a good day and shoot 10 pins above there average shooting 211, the 116 average bowler shoots 221 against the higher average bowler's 211. The 116 average bowler who shoots 221 with a handicap of over 100+ pins gets a total score well over 300 than the higher average bowler who cannot accomplish this period!

In your case it works. In our case it never works!! Some of our bagger's will not be so extreme as this but some do. The ones who don't try to be so obvious will keep there average in the low 150's but can bowl 220 to 230 when they need to.

No one here care's to do anything about it as it's the best way to win all the roll off's, majority are bagger's, and therefore you cannot vote them out. They are the majority! Most all of our honest non-bagger's have gave up bowling, we only have a few who refuse to resort to bagging.

So where does that leave me?? I chose to quit. I refuse to give them my money, i will not be a sucker to their game.
Others like me chose to quit as we cannot compete with this. We still go practice, but we choose to not bowl league and give them our money because of how they work the system.

The league handicap is set to 100% of 235.

So why average 235 when all you have to do is average 120 and you still get 235..??

That is how they do it. That is how they work the system.

Just don't understand that mentality. I bowl for fun, not for a living. If I could make a living doing that then I probably would but I bowl to have fun. Sure we have prize money but I didn't sign up for that. I work very hard for my living, last thing I want to do at bowling is work to make money. I do it for the fun and for me the fun is in seeing how good I can do and how good our team is vs. the competition, prize money or no prize money.

In fact, when I came back to bowling last January my teammates mentioned prize money. I told them I don't remember EVER getting prize money in all my years of bowlinh. They assured me we did. So just goes to show, you remember the bowling, you don't remember the prize.

[TTREX]

Just don't understand that mentality. I bowl for fun, not for a living. If I could make a living doing that then I probably would but I bowl to have fun. Sure we have prize money but I didn't sign up for that. I work very hard for my living, last thing I want to do at bowling is work to make money. I do it for the fun and for me the fun is in seeing how good I can do and how good our team is vs. the competition, prize money or no prize money.

In fact, when I came back to bowling last January my teammates mentioned prize money. I told them I don't remember EVER getting prize money in all my years of bowlinh. They assured me we did. So just goes to show, you remember the bowling, you don't remember the prize.

I am like you boatman37, I bowl for the fun, back 10 years ago and earlier it was about the fun. My prize was my score's. Sure it's nice when at the end of league you get $250 each team member for the top three teams, but it was not about the money for me. All i done with the money was buy a new bowling ball, so the pro shop got more benefit than anyone as many did that back then.

Now it has become such a greed driven thing, that us guys who can no longer make the roll off decided one year to do a no tap where who ever bowled highest game for each of the three games of no tap would win the pot, while the others had there roll off, meaning first game if my buddy bowled highest game then he would win a portion of the pot which normally would only be $30. Same for 2nd game and 3rd game. Highest score for each game set won a portion of the pot.

So that made it fun, but when the bagger's saw what we were doing, meaning bowling no tap for money while they were bowling roll off, they got mad!! So in the league meeting they voted that the no tap would be at the beginning of the league instead of at the end that way they to could get in on the action. So at that point me and my buddies stopped doing that. They took the fun out of it.

One center one year back when AMF was having there handicap tournaments, this is to give a perfect example: This guy bowled 150 pins above his average to win the prize, the prize was a free trip to Nevada to bowl in the main usbc event out there paid for by AMF. He won by averaging 260 which means his average was about 110 in league. This is only an example not exact numbers as my memory is not perfect. But he did bowl 150 pins above average and i do remember he averaged 260 or better.

People were furious over this, and his reply was.... This is how I bowl and there is nothing you can do about it!!!!

Sad but true story.

[J Anderson]

The league handicap is set to 100% of 235.

I just came across an ABC Handicap Manual from 1967. It includes charts to calculate team and individual handicaps. The team charts are for five man teams. The highest base used was 220 per man and the lowest was 180. The percentages were 66 2/3%, 70%, 75%, and 80%. The book also strongly urges that the range of averages should be kept less than 75 pins. In other words, if you have bowlers in the 120s, you should not have bowlers averaging over 200. Likewise, if your top bowlers are in the mid 220s, you wouldn’t have anyone under 150.

When I started bowling, our league used 80% based on 200. Every year there was one person who would prpose a change to 90%, and it would be voted down every time until some time in the nineties. When we finally had a bowler who averaged over 200 it took a couple years to convince the captains that the base needed to be raised.

[fordman1]

In a case like yours it works...

But here our bowlers have the ability to average 180 to 190, and they can pull out 220 games at will, but they keep there average at around 116 to 120. In this case it is terribly easy for them to break 100 or shoot 120 every week, every game ,no problem. They only shoot 220 games when they have to as when bowling a team who has 190 to 201 average.

The higher average team lets say they have a good day and shoot 10 pins above there average shooting 211, the 116 average bowler shoots 221 against the higher average bowler's 211. The 116 average bowler who shoots 221 with a handicap of over 100+ pins gets a total score well over 300 than the higher average bowler who cannot accomplish this period!

In your case it works. In our case it never works!! Some of our bagger's will not be so extreme as this but some do. The ones who don't try to be so obvious will keep there average in the low 150's but can bowl 220 to 230 when they need to.

No one here care's to do anything about it as it's the best way to win all the roll off's, majority are bagger's, and therefore you cannot vote them out. They are the majority! Most all of our honest non-bagger's have gave up bowling, we only have a few who refuse to resort to bagging.

So where does that leave me?? I chose to quit. I refuse to give them my money, i will not be a sucker to their game.
Others like me chose to quit as we cannot compete with this. We still go practice, but we choose to not bowl league and give them our money because of how they work the system.

The league handicap is set to 100% of 235.

So why average 235 when all you have to do is average 120 and you still get 235..??

That is how they do it. That is how they work the system.

I can't believe there are actually leagues that bad.
Ever heard of rerating?
Ever heard of a 10 pin drop rule?
New bowlers should have to use the highest book avg. in the last 3 years.
Try a 21 game cushion.
Use team H\C rather than Ind.

[TTREX]

I just came across an ABC Handicap Manual from 1967. It includes charts to calculate team and individual handicaps. The team charts are for five man teams. The highest base used was 220 per man and the lowest was 180. The percentages were 66 2/3%, 70%, 75%, and 80%. The book also strongly urges that the range of averages should be kept less than 75 pins. In other words, if you have bowlers in the 120s, you should not have bowlers averaging over 200. Likewise, if your top bowlers are in the mid 220s, you wouldn’t have anyone under 150.

When I started bowling, our league used 80% based on 200. Every year there was one person who would prpose a change to 90%, and it would be voted down every time until some time in the nineties. When we finally had a bowler who averaged over 200 it took a couple years to convince the captains that the base needed to be raised.

I agree with how you guys run your bowling, that is how it should be.

[TTREX]

I can't believe there are actually leagues that bad.
Ever heard of rerating?
Ever heard of a 10 pin drop rule?
New bowlers should have to use the highest book avg. in the last 3 years.
Try a 21 game cushion.
Use team H\C rather than Ind.

I totally agree with you, that is how it should be done. I am powerless, they are the majority and that is how they like it. So i finally quit. when I move then I can find a decent place to bowl again where things will be fair, but for now i am just simply out of luck.

[tomcat]

I never heard of real sandbaggers where I bowled. But I can avg. 140. Than get lucky and avg. 186 the next week. And 200 avg. bowler loses 3 games because he avg. 190. Sometimes they yell at me and call me sandbagger or ringer.