Do bowling balls only gain friction when you throw it??

[BowlerGuy1500]

Hey, so I've been working on a bowling project lately and I've been trying to get the oil patterns to feel like real life. In order to do this, I just wondered a simple question. Say I throw a bowling ball down the lane. Will that bowling ball only gain friction from that point on? Or say we're bowling on some sort of advanced oil pattern, could a ball ever skid, start to roll, but then enter the skid phase again? Or something like that? Or do bowling balls do the simple rule: they only gain more friction as they continue to roll down the lane.

Just wondered about this, thanks!

[ALazySavage]

The common example when explaining the phases of a bowling ball (and many other factors) is think of a car driving on ice. We typically see the ice solely as the oil in the front of the lanes but if there was enough oil on the backends you should be able to get the ball to skid again.

[BowlerGuy1500]

Interesting, I see. Thanks for that info.

[GrumpyCatFace]

That would take a whole lot of oil though. The ball loses rotational energy very quickly as soon as it hits friction.

[Aslan]

From a pure physics perspective: Balls don't gain friction, they encounter friction.

Do they 'encounter' friction only when thrown? Technically, "no"....some level of static friction occurs while a ball is at rest, although minimal.

Could a ball enter the skid phase...begin the hook phase...then re-enter a skid phase (which I think is your question)?
Technically, "yes". Just like a car could start to feel the tires grab but then start to slide again.

In "reality", not really. It has less to do with friction and the coverstock and more to do with the core. The core is designed to go from a hook phase to a roll phase. So...even if your pattern were layered in a way that allowed the ball to re-enter the skid phase...the ball would likely start to "roll out". I suppose it would be more likely with a pancake or symmetric core...less likely with an assymetric core.

The car example...the tires still have equal power after the second skid phase...there is no lose of rotational energy (per se). A bowling ball is more like a spinning top...once it loses it's rotational energy...there is nothing to "restart" it. And, the core (especially assymetric) is designed to make it turn over once it loses that rotational energy. So the actual question is, "Can you keep a modern bowling ball from entering the roll phase...by simply flooding the backend with oil?" I don't think so...and even if ya could...the ball would almost immediately roll out as soon as it hit that second set of dry.

And remember, the oil doesn't eliminate friction...it reduces it.

Unfortunately, we have no MWhite to verify my physics assessment. :confused: :(

[Amyers]

Go on a lane used for open bowling quite a bit and throw a plastic or urethane ball you will see this type if reaction from the carry down from their plastic balls. Basically the ball will start to hook stop then hook again. This used to happen quite a bit it's called carry down but doesn't really happen with modern resin balls

[Aslan]

Go on a lane used for open bowling quite a bit and throw a plastic or urethane ball you will see this type if reaction from the carry down from their plastic balls. Basically the ball will start to hook stop then hook again. This used to happen quite a bit it's called carry down but doesn't really happen with modern resin balls

Carrydown pushes oil above the top of the pattern...essentially lengthening the pattern. I thought he was asking about an oil, dry, oil, dry situation. Plastic/urethane doesn't pick up oil and drop it onto another spot....it just pushes it...makes the pattern play longer. Without a creative oil machine (and I don't even know it an oil machine CAN apply that type of pattern)...you could never create an oil/dry/oil lane pattern...unless maybe you used super sanded balls....lofting them into a certain area....in the middle of an oil pattern...but that would be almost impossible to get the result (I think) he's referring to.

[mc_runner]

You can certainly encounter oil/dry/oil/dry if you cross lines with someone playing urethane down and in for example (or plastic aimed at right side, etc). Say they're playing up 12, and you're swinging from 20-8. You'd cross their carry down. I've had this happen where the ball visibly starts to hook, hits an "oily spot" and slides more before completing it's hook and hitting, usually weakly. It ends up looking like the ball "wobbles" on the lane.

[Amyers]

Carrydown pushes oil above the top of the pattern...essentially lengthening the pattern. I thought he was asking about an oil, dry, oil, dry situation. Plastic/urethane doesn't pick up oil and drop it onto another spot....it just pushes it...makes the pattern play longer. Without a creative oil machine (and I don't even know it an oil machine CAN apply that type of pattern)...you could never create an oil/dry/oil lane pattern...unless maybe you used super sanded balls....lofting them into a certain area....in the middle of an oil pattern...but that would be almost impossible to get the result (I think) he's referring to.

Carry down when it happens is not evenly distributed. A 39 foot pattern doesn't morph into a 41 foot pattern after bowling you end up with small drops of oil distributed on the lane unevenly as they are deposited so you may very well have oil/dry/oil/dry that your ball can track through easily.

[Aslan]

In MCRunner's scenario...then yes...I suppose it is possible. But realize what has to happen:

1) You need a bowler (or more likely group of bowlers)...throwing plastic/urethane inside of the breakpoint board (8-board in his example).
2) This bowler or these bowlers need to be able to throw so precisely...that they essentially only push oil up that tiny 1-3 board area.
3) They would need an opponent that is a cranker or 2-hander...that has enough revs to cross the 11-13 board line...significantly up the lane...and bounce the ball off the 8-board.

It's a hard discussion to have...because the very idea of "carrydown" is disputed by some experts and promoted by others. I believe carrydown exists...which is why I have a 3rd ball in my arsenal to deal with it. But, I struggle with the concept of getting a definitive enough amount of it to an area where you could honestly creates a skid/hook/skid/hook scenario the way the OP described.

[mc_runner]

For what it's worth, it's happened 2 or 3 times this year to me, I'm not a cranker/2 hander by any means... more of a mid speed mid rev bowler (350ish rpm) who plays about 15-6 laydown to breakpoint on a THS as my benchmark line. So not common, but it can and does happen from time to time.

Again, for what it's worth that means an immediate move/ball change, which tends to eliminate it.

[Amyers]

In MCRunner's scenario...then yes...I suppose it is possible. But realize what has to happen:
[QUOTE=Aslan;173017]
1) You need a bowler (or more likely group of bowlers)...throwing plastic/urethane inside of the breakpoint board (8-board in his example).

Why does it have to be inside of the breakpoint? the ball rotates as it progresses down the lane basically giving it the ability to deposit oil at any point that passes over.



2) This bowler or these bowlers need to be able to throw so precisely...that they essentially only push oil up that tiny 1-3 board area. Your trying to build a pattern of this instead of realizing your dealing with a change occurrence. Each time a ball passes over an area their is a chance that oil could be deposited their that spot may only be 1/2 inch long and a quarter inch wide. What are the odds that you hit it? Even on a shot that appears to hit the same spot on the lane you may avoid or hit it. The ore the lane has bowled on the more likely you are to hit one of those spots.



3) They would need an opponent that is a cranker or 2-hander...that has enough revs to cross the 11-13 board line...significantly up the lane...and bounce the ball off the 8-board.
I see kids bowling 2 handed with 8 pound balls that hit every board on the lane



It's a hard discussion to have...because the very idea of "carrydown" is disputed by some experts and promoted by others. I believe carrydown exists...which is why I have a 3rd ball in my arsenal to deal with it. But, I struggle with the concept of getting a definitive enough amount of it to an area where you could honestly creates a skid/hook/skid/hook scenario the way the OP described.

Personally I don't believe carry down exists much in the modern game. I do question if the resurgence in urethane might cause a resurgence of the issue myself. Modern balls don't react much to the small amounts of oil they leave on a lane but you bring plastic or urethane into the conversation the rules change. If you've been bowling 20 years+ you've seen carry down and the motion described

[Aslan]

Why does it have to be inside of the breakpoint? the ball rotates as it progresses down the lane basically giving it the ability to deposit oil at any point that passes over.
Because the bowling ball does not pick up oil...hold it for some random amount of time...then make the decision to deposit it. It simply "pushes" it.


Personally I don't believe carry down exists much in the modern game. I do question if the resurgence in urethane might cause a resurgence of the issue myself. Modern balls don't react much to the small amounts of oil they leave on a lane but you bring plastic or urethane into the conversation the rules change. If you've been bowling 20 years+ you've seen carry down and the motion described
Oh yeah...I definitely think the resurgence of urethane revitalizes the question of carrydown.