Honey Badger Gold (Pearl) - Need More Length (THS)

[DHarris75]

Hey everyone - I had one of my worst league nights this past week - new ball syndrome and I couldn't give up on this ball.

Used it out of the box - pro shop spent a lot of time with me and got it fitted just right, and gave me some lesson time using it. Worked on opening up to my target line and letting the ball float off my hand versus coming over it. During weekend lanes (not fresh), I was able to get it to the pocket and posted a few 200+ games with it. Was feeling confident.

League night - I couldn't get it to the pocket for anything. It would come off the pattern and break hard and cross over the head pin or come through the nose. I moved inside, moved target line to the right (and even found the gutter a couple of times) - I tried moving right and increasing speed and breaking wrist. Over the course of 3 games I tried everything I could.

Finally, last few frames, I went back to what I've been using all year (Roto Grip HP3 - I use either a Disturbed or a DareDevil Danger - both with different surfaces) - this night I used the Danger - and threw out the "lesson". I was able to get a few good frames in.

After the game - I was talking to someone on the other team who said I was just using the wrong ball - everything looked good and I was hitting my target it seemed at any given time, but the ball was just too much on the back end for our pattern.

So question: did I waste $200, or is there a way to get this ball to get further down the lane before breaking to the pocket - I wanted an angular ball for when the lanes would break down - but from the reviews, I expected this ball to get further down the lane. It has a 1500 out of the box grit with polish. I sanded it to say 3000 grit and put polish on it - would that give me what I am looking for? I have been experimenting with surface on my HP3 lines, but I don't put polish on them because I want them to be stronger and read early on fresh oil. But this ball was meant to be the ball to get through the heads and break at the end.

[Amyers]

The Honey Badger is a great ball for a lot of bowlers but it has a lot of backend reaction sounds like a bit much in your case. I would suggest nocking the polish off and going to a straight 3k finish on it. Yes it will make it read a little earlier but it will tone down the backend reaction and probably make it more playable for you.

[Aslan]

Amyers and I are discussing (what I see as) your issue in the Force Pearl thread.

Multiple problems with what you posted:

1) You wanted a ball for when lanes break down...yet it appears you used this ball on fresh conditions??
2) A "skid/flip" ball that is a stronger ball to counteract 'carrydown' needs to skid...thus it needs to be a Pearl cover and polished with a decent surface underneath the polish. Your's doesn't have much surface beneath the polish...but whatever...the "skid" isn't a problem with that ball. The PROBLEM...is the 'flip'. You have a ball with a 2.57 RG, a 0.041 diff, and a PerfectScale rating of < 200. The core may be assymetric (good thing for a skid/flip ball)...but these specs lead me to think this is a ball that is ideal for dry lanes and burnt lanes...which is probably why you did so well with it on non-fresh conditions.

Did you waste your money on the new ball? Depends.

If you wanted a skid/flip ball to take out of the bag as a ball #3 to battle carrydown...Yes you did. Changing the surface won't do anything...it's the core that is the problem.

If you wanted a new ball for fresh conditions...a ball #1 or ball #2...Yes, you did. Again, it's not the surface, it's the core.

If you want a pretty nice ball to battle drier lanes or burnt tournament conditions...Absolutely not. This ball would be great for that.

DISCLAIMER:
I don't know your speed, physical condition, nor rev rate. These numbers are based on my higher speed/lower rev rate game. A person with an extremely high rev rate, a very low speed, etc... may be able to use this ball in different spots.

[Amyers]

Amyers and I are discussing (what I see as) your issue in the Force Pearl thread.

Multiple problems with what you posted:

1) You wanted a ball for when lanes break down...yet it appears you used this ball on fresh conditions??
2) A "skid/flip" ball that is a stronger ball to counteract 'carrydown' needs to skid...thus it needs to be a Pearl cover and polished with a decent surface underneath the polish. Your's doesn't have much surface beneath the polish...but whatever...the "skid" isn't a problem with that ball. The PROBLEM...is the 'flip'. You have a ball with a 2.57 RG, a 0.041 diff, and a PerfectScale rating of < 200. The core may be assymetric (good thing for a skid/flip ball)...but these specs lead me to think this is a ball that is ideal for dry lanes and burnt lanes...which is probably why you did so well with it on non-fresh conditions.

Did you waste your money on the new ball? Depends.

If you wanted a skid/flip ball to take out of the bag as a ball #3 to battle carrydown...Yes you did. Changing the surface won't do anything...it's the core that is the problem.

If you wanted a new ball for fresh conditions...a ball #1 or ball #2...Yes, you did. Again, it's not the surface, it's the core.

If you want a pretty nice ball to battle drier lanes or burnt tournament conditions...Absolutely not. This ball would be great for that.

DISCLAIMER:
I don't know your speed, physical condition, nor rev rate. These numbers are based on my higher speed/lower rev rate game. A person with an extremely high rev rate, a very low speed, etc... may be able to use this ball in different spots.

Many bowlers start with polished balls it's not even unusual especially on a house shot their is dry their to work with. His issue was over hooking it's not going to hook less later in a set unless it's burning up and if that's an issue it's time to put it away.

Skid flip isn't really for break down only when you believe it's going to be the more effective line

[DHarris75]

Thank you!

When I was doing my research and talking with my pro shop - he felt this would be a great ball to go to late in the second game / third game. But, he also said I could use it on the fresh and just flatten the wrist out a bit. I brought it out during practice and also threw my reactive - and felt that perhaps the pro was right as my first couple of shots were decent. So game 1 starts - and I decided to start with it. Some shots I could get to the pocket and when it did, the pins exploded - but it felt as if my margin for error was very small. Two boards to the left of where I was targeting the break point, and it hooked through the nose (or worse) a board the right and it was off to the gutter.

The lanes might have been drier than normal - when I did give up and went back to my reactive (what I've been using all 3 games all year), it also hooked too much. I should have stayed with it because it could have just been needing me to readjust my target. But I didn't - I went back to the Pearl. Even on the 3d game, I just couldn't get it to the pocket.

If it would skid about 3 or 4 feet more, it would be perfect.

Thanks again for the input! The whole reason I was looking for a new ball was because while I love the reactive (I have one sanded to 2000 and one at 3000), once I'm into the 3d game, they read too early and hook through the nose (even though I am pretty far inside). I wanted to be able to move back to my starting spot and have something that would get through the heads clean and break on the back end. This ball seems to do that wonderfully - just about 4 or 5 feet too soon for where I play I guess.

By the way - I'm still new to this, but trying to learn - my first league (outside of military intramurals when I was younger, where we just used it as an excuse to get together and drink - lol).

[Amyers]

Thank you!

When I was doing my research and talking with my pro shop - he felt this would be a great ball to go to late in the second game / third game. But, he also said I could use it on the fresh and just flatten the wrist out a bit. I brought it out during practice and also threw my reactive - and felt that perhaps the pro was right as my first couple of shots were decent. So game 1 starts - and I decided to start with it. Some shots I could get to the pocket and when it did, the pins exploded - but it felt as if my margin for error was very small. Two boards to the left of where I was targeting the break point, and it hooked through the nose (or worse) a board the right and it was off to the gutter.

The lanes might have been drier than normal - when I did give up and went back to my reactive (what I've been using all 3 games all year), it also hooked too much. I should have stayed with it because it could have just been needing me to readjust my target. But I didn't - I went back to the Pearl. Even on the 3d game, I just couldn't get it to the pocket.

If it would skid about 3 or 4 feet more, it would be perfect.

Thanks again for the input! The whole reason I was looking for a new ball was because while I love the reactive (I have one sanded to 2000 and one at 3000), once I'm into the 3d game, they read too early and hook through the nose (even though I am pretty far inside). I wanted to be able to move back to my starting spot and have something that would get through the heads clean and break on the back end. This ball seems to do that wonderfully - just about 4 or 5 feet too soon for where I play I guess.

By the way - I'm still new to this, but trying to learn - my first league (outside of military intramurals when I was younger, where we just used it as an excuse to get together and drink - lol).

What are your other two balls?

[Aslan]

Many bowlers start with polished balls it's not even unusual especially on a house shot their is dry their to work with.
Maybe...like I said, without seeing his speed and rev rate...I can't say it's a bad choice.


His issue was over hooking it's not going to hook less later in a set unless it's burning up and if that's an issue it's time to put it away.
I read that he wanted something to have an angular backend when the lanes broke down.


Skid flip isn't really for break down only when you believe it's going to be the more effective line
Everyone and their uncle wants a ball that "goes long and has an angular backend motion". I used to hang out in the pro shop and literally 95% of bowlers looking for a ball...described that as what they wanted.

The advice I'd give is...the first ball should be a matte solid with a strong core and low RG/high diff. The second ball, as the lanes transition, should be a hydrid...maybe some buffing compound...higher RG than ball #1...less diff. Ball #3 should be a assymetric, low RG/high diff, polished pearl skid/flip ball that is able to skid through the beat up, transitioned lanes...but have the strength to turn the corner in carrydown. Ball #4 should be a higher RG, lower Diff...probably symmetric core...probably Pearl, lower diff ball that can get downlane when the lanes have really, really transitioned.

That strategy 'should' allow the bowler to play a 7-board area of most THS environments. Heavier oil you just start further right...drier conditions you start further left. The concept of trying 3-4 balls every night on each side of the pair...different speeds, different hand positions...3-4-5 step approaches...probably good advice for high level tournament players that see crazy oil patterns and bowl in wildly different environments...but probably more of a distraction for 97% of bowlers. IMO

[DHarris75]

Aslan - thank you.

Yeah - I tried to do my research. I didn't just jump. But when you read the reviews on the Honey Badger Gold, they generally describe what I was looking for. I'd say I'm a tweener - I usually come in on board 18-20 between the 3d and 4th arrow and hit the breakpoint about 40 feet down around board 9 or 10.

I have a Roto Grip DareDevil Danger and a RotoGrip Disturbed (HP3).

Disturbed: Solid Reactive / RG - 2.5 / Diff - 0.043 (currently sanded to a 3000 grit)
Danger: Hybrid Reactive / RG - 2.48 / Diff - 0.041 (currently sanded to a 2000 grit)
Honey Badger Gold: Pearl / RG - 2.57 / Diff 0.041 (out of the box - 1500 grit / polished)
Plastic for spares

Starting season, didn't know anything about anything. Bought the Danger not realizing it is pretty much same ball as my older Disturbed - same shape, strong, reads early and smooth - control. My average is only 157, but I have streaks where I can bowling between 550 and 612, but can be inconsistent and bowl a 400 or 450. With just those two balls, I can bowl a 230 or a 140. But I've been getting better as the season goes on and my average is creeping up week over week (for instance - before this past week's disaster with this ball, I had 234/177/201 night, and a 182/188/186 night). I guess I shouldn't complain - I was just trying to take that next step and have something to go to when the other two were not working (which happens - evidence of a 153/159/104 night several weeks back). Would like to get to 200 more consistently.

But I started to be able to recognize when I needed to make adjustments / transition. However, as I moved left, the ball would lose its power on the back end and I'd see more splits / ringing 10s. I've been reading and trying to learn about adjustments, transitions, etc - I'm too competitive to not try and get better. I know it takes time and practice - and that's what I'm doing. But I wanted to take the next step and have a ball to go to when the stronger balls were too strong. They are great on fresh - they dig through the oil and make a smooth curve back to the pocket. It's just later on, it's too much.

I was hoping this one would skid further before it makes it's flip. The flip is great...great reaction down the lane - just can't get it to as long as I think I need it to before it makes it's move to the pocket.

While I've been experimenting with surface on the other two balls, I have not tried using anything with polish. What I didn't know is how grit / surface works with polish. If you put polish on the ball, how much does the surface still affect the friction? IE: If I go from 1500 grit + polish to 3000 grit with polish, or 3000 grit without polish - what would the differences be (with a pearl specifically - but even in general).

Thanks again guys - I still have a LOT TO LEARN and I want to.

[bowl1820]

I moved inside, moved target line to the right (and even found the gutter a couple of times) - I tried moving right and increasing speed and breaking wrist. Over the course of 3 games I tried everything I could.


By moving left and then throwing farther right (which I assume you did because you said you found the gutter), you were throwing into the dry just that much more (and probably earlier also). I'm guessing The ball probably then either started hooking just that much harder or would roll out and not make it back.

What you needed was more length, when you moved left with your feet. You should have also targeted inside more, this would have kept your ball in the oil longer. Which would have let the ball get farther down the lane before moving.


Amyers suggestion about knocking the polish off is a option also, it would even out the reaction some.

[DHarris75]

Yeah - I tried both. Moved feet left and kept target, and moved parallel by moving feet and target left. I had two outcomes - gutter or through the nose or past the head pin. Just couldn't get it to the pocket - or even to hit light for that matter.

I was really trying everything. I didn't want to just keep throwing the same shot and "hoping" - I was experimenting trying to find a line I could play. Even went up the 5 board and flattened wrist to almost end over end, and it did what I thought it would - read the friction outside and read early - through the nose.

It was the like the ball just had a mind of it's own and it was going to hit to the left of the head pin (I'm a righty) or it was going off the rails into the gutter. A few shots I was able to get to the pocket - and it felt like there was a line i could play, but it had to be just perfect - so I'd strike, try to hit the same line again and it would be a little too early and go through the front.

One shot I was able to get it to the edge and it bounced off the friction and came screaming back for a strike. Was beautiful to see - but not really what I wanted...too far outside. Couldn't replicate - tried it again and in the gutter. Moved target left a couple of boards and it went too early and crossed over (split - a 4-10 - which I magically picked up with the same ball - rolled it up 7 and it grazed past the 4 with just enough to push it over to the 10. The lanes on both sides clapped - then my next shot went through the nose again. Not as dramatic lol.

Anyway - thanks everyone for their advice. I'll see what sanding it to 3000 grit with no polish does for me. It might read earlier than I was hoping for, but maybe smooth out the reaction enough to make it useful.

Maybe the right answer is that it was just too much back end for my house on a regular league night / THS.

[Amyers]

Let us know if it helps. The Badger is a great ball. I love my Claw. It is a lot of ball It will probably tone down some after it get 10-15 games on it too. Most balls do.

[Aslan]

Balls I've thrown with a 2.57 RG or greater:

- Brunswick Slingshot

- Track 300A

......that's it.

Similarities? Those are both entry-level balls with no power...good on dry conditions...as a starter ball. Does that mean they're "bad"? No. actually, for the $55 I paid for it...the Slingshot was a great ball...for $55. Many people loved the Slingshot...it had a nice little flare on the backend...it was decent. And, if I'm on burnt conditions...5-6 games into a tournament...the 300A does really well. Very controllable ball.

How you got a polished Honey Badger with a 2.57 RG to overhook....I have no idea.

What it "sounds" like to me...and please correct me if I am insinterpreting the facts...

A) You are a beginning level bowler...and as you've been improving...you have been learning about oil transition...and how to move left to keep your ball hitting the pocket.

B) You noticed, once you got far enough inside...with a bigger angle...your balls you were using wouldn't make the turn.

C) You (correctly) decided you needed a ball that was stronger on the backend...but wouldn't hook too soon on transitioned lanes.

D) You chose the Honey badger...because it was polished and Pearl and the advertisement said it goes long and has a good backend and the PSO was more than happy to sell it to you.

E) You tried it in open bowling...on burnt conditions...and it worked quite well.

F) On league night, instead of using it as a Ball #2/#3/#4...you used it as a Ball #1. I get it...anxious to give it a try. It doesn't make the turn. You move right, it hooks too much. You move in, it doesn't make the turn. By the time you switch to the more aggressive balls...the lanes had transitioned...and now those balls are hooking too much.

The GOOD thing...is that you...even as a newer bowler...kinda understood your ball motion and what was going on...at least enough to understand lateral movement and know when the balls you were using weren't doing what you wanted them to. That's far, far better than many new bowlers that have no idea what they are doing and simply switch balls cuz they left a split and don't know why...must be the ball.

The BAD thing...is you don't understand how the specs translate into ball movement...and you're not alone!! Amyers and I have been discussing this for a week...and we might BOTH be wrong...and Rob will come in here and give you his theories...and your PSO has his theories...and the majority of PBA pros don't "really" understand the specs...thats why they have ball reps to explain all that mumbo jumbo. If we ever got MWhite or Iceman back in this discussion...Whoa BOy!! You get Rob and MWhite and Iceman...and Aslan...all taking nonsense back and forth about the secret world of bowling ball specifications...now THATs some terrifying reading!! Many an evening have been ruined when those superpowers have collided!!

My THEORY...is that what you experienced when you moved in (pre-Badger purchase) was burnout. What is burnout? I dunno...I mean, I do...but it's hard to explain...just essentially it means the ball experiences too much friction to early and loses it's 'saved power'.

To FIGHT burnout...one who follows Aslan's ramblings...would ball DOWN...stay on the same line (or close depending on equipment)...now the ball goes longer on the burnt/transitioned lanes...saves up energy...you get a better backend reaction.

Those two steps are great. Maybe you get a ball #3...even weaker...goes even longer...etc... Most league nights aren't 8 hours long...lanes usually don't transition that much over 3 games with 3-5 bowlers per team (but they CAN).

The "skid/flip" discussion...is about inserting a Ball #3...between Ball #2 and Ball #4...that is meant to deal with "carrydown". Some (Rob et al) will claim carrydown is a figment of older bowler's imaginations. He (Rob) is not crazy....he has some very convincing, analytical evidence supporting his case. Others will swear that carrydown is a problem and point toward the resurgence of urethane as one of the reasons why. Most...like me...and Amyers...will generally be in the middle. Carrydown 'can' exist...but it's not near the issue it was in the 1960s-1980s. The "skid/flip" ball has the length of a Ball #4...but the snap of a Ball #1. These balls are harder to control...but they can be very effective at managing a transitioned lane where carrydown has pushed some oil towards your breakpoint.

I do not believe the Badger Pearl is a good "skid/flip" candidate...because it has too high of an RG, too low a differential, and is generally a weaker ball (per PerfectScale rating). It doesn't mean it wouldn't be a good Ball #4 or even a Ball #2...depending on your physical game and the lane conditions you bowl on. But, I've yet to see a ball with a 2.57RG, < 0.047 differential, and sub-200 PerfectScale value that was a good Ball #1 or Ball #2...not on synthetic lanes with a typical, fresh THS....at >13mph and average revs.

If you're a 2-hander, thumbless, bowl at < 9mph, or bowl on wood lanes...then I may stand corrected...but I've watched my Track 300A on fresh conditions at 14mph with low-moderate revs...and whoa boy...better put the bumpers up if I try to play anything but up and in.

My 2 cents...or 2 pesos...however the experts want to value them.

[DHarris75]

Aslan

Thank you so much! It's been a few months since I've been back on here. Finished our league and we are just now starting summer (as I imagine most folks are).

I think you are spot on with regard to your analysis of my approach and where I am. That one night, as I discovered, was in part due to someone on our lane that night that is a semi-pro - his revs way surpass everyone in our league. He was coming in from the deep left across the lane to the breakpoint and able to bring it back into the pocket. He talked me later and said not to hang my hat too much on how I bowled that particular night because his line messes up everyone else. Take that for what it's worth.

I have been trying to stick with this ball and trying to find it's spot in the lineup. When it hits the pocket, you can see it still has the energy and does a number on the pins. I did discover I had to calibrate my eyes to the lane. I'm a bigger fella and when I think I'm left in the lane, I'm really not. My left foot is on the last dot - but by the time I look where the ball actually lays down, it's about the middle. If I come in further left and lay the ball down on the lane about board 25 or 30 and aim for the breakpoint of board 8 or 9, I can get the ball to the pocket. The problem is it seems high / low - cannot get a consistent good hit out of it - leaves corner pins or splits.

I have league tonight. I'm going to open with my Roto-Grip Disturbed with a 3,000 grit surface, and then move the Honey Badger in game 3 - but I'm going to sand it to 3,000 grit tonight (no-polish). This is summer, so going to experiment and learn more.

Your read below was a great read. I admit I do not know enough about the RG and differential. When I bought the ball, I found a video on YouTube and a formula - a way to rank the balls with regard to weak / strong. I can't remember the link now - but I did that on my 2 balls I had, and then did it on ones I was looking at to get to the Honey Badger Gold.

I'm not one to just go to the lanes and throw my shot over and over and hope / will it to the pocket. I want to learn. I'm too competitive to not learn and be open to concepts or help! So - again - Thank you!

Your theory about why I can use the ball on the house lanes on weekends / practice and why I struggle in leagues is also spot on - makes sense after watching the reaction.

A little more about me - I'm right handed / use thumb / tweener - I have more rev and can get the ball back from the break point easier than a lot of guys in our league, but revs not as much as the better guys in our league / need to work more on approach/timing as probably most newbies do in their first year / but I can be streaky and hit 7 or 8 strikes in a row - clean games are becoming more common / but doesn't take much to get me off the rails where nothing is working.