Ball needs different surface

[boatman37]

So my Kingpin is my strongest ball (500 CTD unpolished on a spinner/wet). This ball is a board or 2 stronger than my Conspiracy and hooks a little sooner. The Conspiracy is at 2000 CTD unpolished/spinner/wet. Then I have the Black Widow Gold at 1000 wet/spinner/polished with Motiv Power Gel Polish. This ball is a few boards weaker than the Conspiracy. Tried it the other night and it pretty much went straight. I did use it Saturday night when they were bone dry but even Tuesday night they were dry but still not dry enough for this ball. I need this ball to be a little more aggressive. As it sits it only hooks slightly more than my Brunswick Rhino. My Conspiracy was a little too much for 3rd game Tuesday but not dry enough for the BWG. Trying to get this BWG a little closer so I can use it on nights like Tuesday night.

I can either go 500 polished or maybe 3000 unpolished? Any thoughts or ideas on what would be just slightly more aggressive than 1000 polished that it is now?

The other option is a new Conspiracy Pearl...lol. Really don't want to buy another ball but would this do what I'm looking for? Or just use the BWG and get the surface dialed in? I use the Conspiracy 97% of the time and rarely need the Kingpin either.

[Amyers]

Try 4k pad no polish. If it needs to be even more go to 3k no polish. Many people don't like polished finishes on their balls

[RobLV1]

As you are trying to decide on a new finish, consider that surface does not just determine length, it determines reaction. A ball with more surface will give you more read in the oil, and a less aggressive reaction off of friction. Conversely, a polished surface will skid more in the oil and will give you a more aggressive reaction to friction. There is more to bowling than just how much a ball hooks: all balls hook the same amount dependent on the bowler's release, but it is WHEN they hook that determines how many boards are covered.

[boatman37]

I will try the 4k first. Essentially the Rhino is almost identical to the BWG in terms of shape and roll, which even under normal game 3 conditions is almost straight.

I get what you are saying Rob. Earlier read = less back end snap. The BWG doesn't hook at all until a few feet before the pins and then only a few boards. Basically if I need to ball down I have a huge gap between the Conspiracy and the BWG. Too much of a gap. Just want to narrow that gap a little.

[Aslan]

If it were ME:

Ball #1 Conspiracy 2000 matte

Ball #2 Kingpin 2500 then Royal Compound

Ball #3 BWG 500 then Royal Compound

I think you're making a mistake by sanding these balls too much...and they might be burning out on ya. Mistake #1 is the Kingpin and Conspiracy are practically the same ball...so I'd expect them to be close. But why do you want them "close"? Wouldn't you rather put some distance between them so they serve different purposes?

The Conspiracy 'should' be slightly stronger than the Kingpin...'should'...but not by much. Instead of taking the Kingpin down to 500...try taking it to 1000 and taking the Conspiracy to 500. Then, if you insist on sanding the heck out of everything...take the BWG down to 500. I'd use Royal Compound (as stated above) to get these balls to conserve some energy downlane...but if you're gonna sand a way...I think the Conspiracy and BWG at 500 and the Kingpin at 1000.

[boatman37]

Are you talking compound or polish? I am using the Motiv 5000 polish now. I don't have any compound yet.

The Kingpin at 2500 with compound probably won't hook at all for me (or at least with the polish)? Right now at 500 matte it's slightly stronger than the Conspiracy at 2000 matte. I am speed dominant so I don't see a ton of hook on any of them. But you are right, the Kingpin and Conspiracy are very close right now at 500 and 2000 respectively. The Kingpin is just slightly stronger by a couple of boards. The BWG at 1000 polished barely hooks at all unless the lanes are very dry. Maybe compound would be better?

I really like the Conspiracy at 2000 matte. This works for me 90% of the time. You have a good point now that I think about it. I don't really need a stronger ball than the Conspiracy. Maybe setting the Kingpin up to fill that gap between the Conspiracy and the BWG is the way to go rather than having the Kingpin barely stronger than the Conspiracy. I just have them in the wrong order....lol.

And yes, the Kingpin at 1000 is weaker than the Conspiracy. Maybe I will try the Kingpin at 3000 matte? That might fit right between the other 2? Then if I need to I can weaken the BWG just a little

[Aslan]

Are you talking compound or polish? I am using the Motiv 5000 polish now. I don't have any compound yet.
Compound. I only use polish on my skid/flip, weaker/dry ball, and my plastic ball. Sometimes I won't even bother with polish on anything but the plastic ball. The compounds do a good job lengthening the reaction. Unless you have a ton of hand...and it sounds like you don't...polish is probably overkill.


The Kingpin at 2500 with compound probably won't hook at all for me (or at least with the polish)? Right now at 500 matte it's slightly stronger than the Conspiracy at 2000 matte. I am speed dominant so I don't see a ton of hook on any of them. But you are right, the Kingpin and Conspiracy are very close right now at 500 and 2000 respectively. The Kingpin is just slightly stronger by a couple of boards. The BWG at 1000 polished barely hooks at all unless the lanes are very dry. Maybe compound would be better?
You just have to remember that a ball hooking isn't everything you want. I used to have a great bowler teammate that threw an Ebonite Cyclone...one ball...consistent as hell(0)...averaged almost 200. Throwing a good ball will almost always trump anything else.

[boatman37]

So after my trouble with the Conspiracy the other night I looked and had around 30 games since the last sanding. So got the spinner out and using CDT pads hit the Conspiracy with 2000 matte (same as it was last time and I really liked it). Used 2000 on the Kingpin matte finish (it was 500 matte). Hit the BWG with 3000 then a quick hit with 4000 matte (it was 1000 with 5000 polish) and hit the Rhino with 3000 polished (5000 polish). I only use the Rhino for the 7 pin (lefty here).

So the Conspiracy should be my strong ball with the Kingpin being next. The other night I hit the Kingpin with a quick 3000 before warmups to scuff it a little more but it was almost identical to the Conspiracy that way so 3000 wet on the spinner should give it a little less friction? The BWG at 1000 with Motiv 5000 polish hardly hooked at all so hit it with 4000 matte wet so maybe a little more friction with it now?

Need to buy some compound. The only ball with polish now is the Rhino that I only use for the 7 pin. For the 4 pin I use my strike ball and aim for the inside of the 7 pin and it hits right on the 4.

Will see how it goes Tuesday. First night of summer league.

[ALazySavage]

Boatman, are you going to have the opportunity to practice before your next league session? If not, David Leverage, a really good PSO in Phoenix, had the recommendation that when preparing for a tournament if you are uncertain about the surface you should have on non-polished equipment that you may want to just put it at a surface around 4000; then when you get to practice/warm up you take that time to adjust the surface before competition begins (essentially the argument is that it is easier to get a ball to a lower surface by hand than the other direction). I know that you are not necessarily going to a tournament but you can still use this recommendation for league (or during a practice session) to try and dial in what you like with that ball.

[Aslan]

I think people are messing with surface too much.

For me, I generally know what surface I need on each ball. It takes weeks of bowling to make me think..."ya know, next time I surface my equipment, I'm gonna drop down to a 1000 or 1500" or "next time I resurface, I'm gonna use Step 2 instead of Step 3".

You have to have you bowling balls set up properly in a good, sensical progression...then you can use minor surface adjustments to fine tune your reaction based on what you are seeing week-to-week.

And when I say "surface adjustments"...I mean with a ball spinner. I have ZERO confidence in a person being able to put a good, repeatable surface on a ball by just rubbing it with a pad while spinning it around in your hands. I'd love to see the data on that...to see the difference between doing a 1000-2000-3000 on a spinner versus somebody spinning a ball in their hand with a 3000 pad for 5 minutes.

That's another reason I think bowlers should surface less frequently. Very few bowlers have spinners...and going to your pro shop constantly to get a certain surface adjustment is going to be $$$. Know your arsenal, know your progression, give it at least a few weeks to figure out what you might want to change...THEN take it into the pro shop (if you don't have your own spinner).

Now, if you're sweeping in Vegas or doing a challenge/sport shot league...or a tournament...thats totally different. You may need to make significant surface changes to bowl in those type of environments. IMO.

[Amyers]

I think people are messing with surface too much.

For me, I generally know what surface I need on each ball. It takes weeks of bowling to make me think..."ya know, next time I surface my equipment, I'm gonna drop down to a 1000 or 1500" or "next time I resurface, I'm gonna use Step 2 instead of Step 3".

You have to have you bowling balls set up properly in a good, sensical progression...then you can use minor surface adjustments to fine tune your reaction based on what you are seeing week-to-week.

And when I say "surface adjustments"...I mean with a ball spinner. I have ZERO confidence in a person being able to put a good, repeatable surface on a ball by just rubbing it with a pad while spinning it around in your hands. I'd love to see the data on that...to see the difference between doing a 1000-2000-3000 on a spinner versus somebody spinning a ball in their hand with a 3000 pad for 5 minutes.

That's another reason I think bowlers should surface less frequently. Very few bowlers have spinners...and going to your pro shop constantly to get a certain surface adjustment is going to be $$$. Know your arsenal, know your progression, give it at least a few weeks to figure out what you might want to change...THEN take it into the pro shop (if you don't have your own spinner).

Now, if you're sweeping in Vegas or doing a challenge/sport shot league...or a tournament...thats totally different. You may need to make significant surface changes to bowl in those type of environments. IMO.

It depends on what you are trying to do in my opinion and the starting surface. If my 2k finished ball appears to be laboring I can easily hit that with a 1500 pad in my hands to fix that for a week until I have time to take it to the pro shop for a complete resurface. When I do that it's not 5 minutes its about 2 minutes and I doubt that surface lasts near as long. I may experiment with adding some surface or removing some while on the lanes practicing. I'm not trying to refinish a ball to a polished surface with out a spinner or thinking it's the same or will last as long. Handsurfacing is temporary in my opinion

[boatman37]

I have an Innovative spinner so yes I am using a spinner. But last week during warmups I hit the Kingpin with the 3000 by hand real quick just to delay the reaction a little because it was so close to the Conspiracy.

I understand what you are saying about practicing with the new surface but the Conspiracy is the same as it was last time I did it. I just freshened it up. The Kingpin was still too close to the Conspiracy so went a little smoother to have some difference between the 2. Once I find what I like in the Kingpin and BWG I will have a good baseline. But for now still trying to find that baseline to where I have 3 options with progression