ball reaction vs inconsistent bowler?

[boatman37]

So tonight I started out with the Conspiracy as I usually do. 1 frame I'm light next frame I'm crossing in front of the headpin. Seemed to be hitting my target fairly consistently but seemed when it crossed over it seemed to have more revs. Couldn't figure it out and figured it was something I was doing so didn't change balls until game 3. 3rd game I got the Kingpin out and my first 3 balls with it were pocket strikes. Up until that point I had only hit the pocket maybe 2 or 3 times all night. Once I switched to the Kingpin I hit th pocket on all but 1 shot. I didn't feel any different in game 3 and my release felt the same. Was this a ball issue or a bowler issue? I was reluctant to change balls earlier since I was so inconsistent with my shot placement that I figured a different ball wouldn't matter.

And both balls had a very similar shape and I played the exact same line (standing on about 17 with right foot and targeting 9 at the arrows-lefty)

174, 145, 211. Had 5 strikes in the first 2 games and 8 in the last game

[J Anderson]

I don’t have time to answer this right now but I would like to ask if your target is a point, i.e. a dot or an arrow or is it a line down to your break point?

[boatman37]

I don’t have time to answer this right now but I would like to ask if your target is a point, i.e. a dot or an arrow or is it a line down to your break point?

My target is at the arrows. Targeted the 9 board at the arrows. I don't look down lane at the breakpoint. Tried in the past but haven't been able to catch on to that so I went back to targeting at the arrows

[djp1080]

My target is at the arrows. Targeted the 9 board at the arrows. I don't look down lane at the breakpoint. Tried in the past but haven't been able to catch on to that so I went back to targeting at the arrows
You should try your best to watch what the ball is doing as it's going down the lane. Many times you'll likely hit your target at the arrows or the dots and your ball rolls off your hand nicely with a good feeling. When that happens, chances are real good you'll get that strike. Sometimes when that happens, you don't. If you can move your eyes from your target after the ball rolls over it, try to look down at the range finders down about 42 feet down the lane and see where your ball is rolling. On a house shot my ball is usually around board 8 or 9 if it's a good one. Another thing to check is once your ball has hit the pins you could easily check your slide foot and see where you end up on your shots. When I look down at my feet after a shot, I seldom if ever am off more than a board. Poor shots for me usually has to do with my hand position at the release.

[vdubtx]

1. Ball speed on each shot could be slower or faster.
2. Laydown point varied between shots with angle difference?
3. Over/Under conditions can do this.

Was someone else on pair throwing urethane on your line?

[boatman37]

1. Ball speed on each shot could be slower or faster.
2. Laydown point varied between shots with angle difference?
3. Over/Under conditions can do this.

Was someone else on pair throwing urethane on your line?

Ball speed was consistent until I switched to the Kingpin. I didn't do anything differently in trying to slow it down but it was about 1 MPH slower. Maybe cause it had more angle at the sensors?

Not sure on the urethane. We had to change pairs after each game last night and had a different team on our pair in game 2. Games 1 and 3 were the same team with us and most threw Radical or Motiv so don't think there was any urethane. And I started game 3 with the Conspiracy until the 4th frame and struggled until then so it likely wasn't the lane that made the difference.

[Aslan]

Speed variation or inconsistent release would be my best guess.

[boatman37]

Speed variation or inconsistent release would be my best guess.

That was my thoughts too until I changed balls. Up until the 3rd frame of game 3 I had only hit the pocket 2 or 3 shots all night. My first 3 with the other ball were pocket strikes and all but 1 from the 4th frame on were right in the pocket.

[J Anderson]

My target is at the arrows. Targeted the 9 board at the arrows. I don't look down lane at the breakpoint. Tried in the past but haven't been able to catch on to that so I went back to targeting at the arrows


Ball speed was consistent until I switched to the Kingpin. I didn't do anything differently in trying to slow it down but it was about 1 MPH slower. Maybe cause it had more angle at the sensors?

Not sure on the urethane. We had to change pairs after each game last night and had a different team on our pair in game 2. Games 1 and 3 were the same team with us and most threw Radical or Motiv so don't think there was any urethane. And I started game 3 with the Conspiracy until the 4th frame and struggled until then so it likely wasn't the lane that made the difference.

If you are targeting at the arrows and not watching the ball all the way out to the break point and through the pins, you could wind up with the idea that you are on target but getting wildly different reaction on each shot. However, if you are not releasing the ball at the same spot, your line will be different each time. Say you are targeting 2nd arrow with the ball crossing the foul line at the eleventh board, the ball should get out to 8 at the break point. If you drift a bit inside and send the ball over the line at 12, it will head out to 6. Drift the other way just one board and the ball goes straight down 10 until it hits the friction. Thus even with hitting your target all three shots, your break point has varied by four boards. If you’re lined up right on a THS this might not matter too much. If you aren’t lined up right, that down lane variance might cause the problem you’ve described.

If you are changing pairs after each game, to some extent you are at the mercy of who ever bowled before you on that pair. While this is mostly a problem in sport leagues where there is little room for error on the fresh, you can run into trouble moving pairs on a THS. For example, if you follow a group of crankers throwing heavy oil balls you might find there is no hold area left on your normal line.

[boatman37]

If you are targeting at the arrows and not watching the ball all the way out to the break point and through the pins, you could wind up with the idea that you are on target but getting wildly different reaction on each shot. However, if you are not releasing the ball at the same spot, your line will be different each time. Say you are targeting 2nd arrow with the ball crossing the foul line at the eleventh board, the ball should get out to 8 at the break point. If you drift a bit inside and send the ball over the line at 12, it will head out to 6. Drift the other way just one board and the ball goes straight down 10 until it hits the friction. Thus even with hitting your target all three shots, your break point has varied by four boards. If you’re lined up right on a THS this might not matter too much. If you aren’t lined up right, that down lane variance might cause the problem you’ve described.

If you are changing pairs after each game, to some extent you are at the mercy of who ever bowled before you on that pair. While this is mostly a problem in sport leagues where there is little room for error on the fresh, you can run into trouble moving pairs on a THS. For example, if you follow a group of crankers throwing heavy oil balls you might find there is no hold area left on your normal line.

Yeah. We don't normally move but for the rolloffs we did. But I'm a lefty so not as bad as most will face. The team we were paired with in games 1 and 3 are heavy crankers but only 1 of them is a lefty. We have 3 lefties on our team too with 1 being a heavier cranker but I bowl with him every week.

I see what you are saying about the ball down lane but when I switched balls it was like flipping a light switch. I wouldn't think it was inconsistency on my part since a ball switch fixed it.

Another question...the Kingpin only had a couple games on it since the last sanding where the Conspiracy had about 30 or so. Could that have been it?

[RobLV1]

You started out this thread by saying, "So tonight I started out with the Conspiracy as I usually do." Way back in 2007 when I wrote my first article for BTM, the subject matter was the dangers of preconceptions in modern bowling. Every year that passes, that subject has become more and more important. What ball you "usually" start with, what line you "usually" play, is irrelevant. You need to realize that there are so many things that can affect how the lanes play (weather conditions, oil machine mate nance, etc.) that NOTHING is usual. Every week is new, things change, and you have to be willing and able to change right along with them.

[boatman37]

You started out this thread by saying, "So tonight I started out with the Conspiracy as I usually do." Way back in 2007 when I wrote my first article for BTM, the subject matter was the dangers of preconceptions in modern bowling. Every year that passes, that subject has become more and more important. What ball you "usually" start with, what line you "usually" play, is irrelevant. You need to realize that there are so many things that can affect how the lanes play (weather conditions, oil machine mate nance, etc.) that NOTHING is usual. Every week is new, things change, and you have to be willing and able to change right along with them.

Thats what I'm struggling with. 90% of the time the Conspiracy works where I like to play but when it doesn't I'm reluctant to change anything. Hopefully the other night will help with that since I hopefully gained a little confidence that I can strike with something other than the Conspiracy. But I really like how it feels...lol. Just the fit and everything. It's supposed to be the same drilling as my others but it feels a little better.

And in addition to moving away from my favorite ball I also moved more inside than I am comfortable with. I can consistently hit the 6-7 board but had struggled to hit the 9-10 board but I have been much better with it lately. I played 9-10 most of the night as the outside was just a little too dry for me.

My biggest issue this past 15 months since my return has been consistency but I seem to be getting better with that so hopefully I can start fine tuning things.

But yeah, I usually start with the Conspiracy. If it hits the pocket its usually a strike where my other balls have less success when hitting the pocket. Probably the carry or having more energy at the pins than the others. The problem is I only 'usually' hit the pocket about 70% of the time....lol

[RobLV1]

I've always said that my "favorite" bowling ball is the one in my hand that is currently striking... whatever it is. As modern bowlers, we don't have the luxury of having a favorite anything; ball, line, etc.

[Aslan]

Another question...the Kingpin only had a couple games on it since the last sanding where the Conspiracy had about 30 or so. Could that have been it?

Theoretically...yes.

If the ball had developed a significant track or had a dull/slick spot somewhere on it...a strong, assymetric core ball...yeah...you could have had the inconsistency based on something having to do with the ball surface. Unlikely, but possible.

It's not the "ball"...because the ball doesn't change. And the Kingpin is the same ball (in terms of specs). The Conspiracy didn't just all the sudden decide to move it's core around because it was bored sitting in your bag. And, if the Kingpin worked...it's essentially the same ball...so ball specs are essentially ruled out.

That leaves physical (release/speed), lane conditions, or surface.

[J Anderson]

You started out this thread by saying, "So tonight I started out with the Conspiracy as I usually do." Way back in 2007 when I wrote my first article for BTM, the subject matter was the dangers of preconceptions in modern bowling. Every year that passes, that subject has become more and more important. What ball you "usually" start with, what line you "usually" play, is irrelevant. You need to realize that there are so many things that can affect how the lanes play (weather conditions, oil machine mate nance, etc.) that NOTHING is usual. Every week is new, things change, and you have to be willing and able to change right along with them.

I am not disagreeing with you over the need to be open minded about what ball to use, but I would bring up a few observations about human nature.

People seem to be programed to take short cuts. This is obvious to any one looking at where kids actually walk in a school yard compared to where the architect had the sidewalks put in. Our adult brains also want to take the shortest path. So if ball X gets strikes one week we will tend to start off with X the next week, and eventually we stop checking our other balls in practice and X has become our usual ball. Also, at least in my area, league practice is only 10 minutes, so in a five person per team league you get maybe four shots to find a line before the first game. Given the limited time it is only natural to have a “usual” ball to start with.

[ALazySavage]

People seem to be programed to take short cuts. This is obvious to any one looking at where kids actually walk in a school yard compared to where the architect had the sidewalks put in. Our adult brains also want to take the shortest path. So if ball X gets strikes one week we will tend to start off with X the next week, and eventually we stop checking our other balls in practice and X has become our usual ball. Also, at least in my area, league practice is only 10 minutes, so in a five person per team league you get maybe four shots to find a line before the first game. Given the limited time it is only natural to have a “usual” ball to start with.

This is the argument towards having a "ride or die" benchmark ball. Something that you can throw a few times and have an idea of what the lane is going to be asking you to do that day. Currently I have a Pyramid Curse that I had drilled as a benchmark layout and took the shine off of the ball - I always start with it in practice because after a few shots I can usually tell what ball I should start with (sadly, I'm likely replacing it this weekend because it has run its course [probably getting an IQ tour or a Web tour with the intention of putting a control layout on it to still fill the role]), I rarely actually use this ball during competition but the information is very helpful in preventing the shortcut of using what worked most recently.

[Aslan]

I know me, RobM, and Amyers have beat this topic to death over the years...but the way I think about it is this:

Bowling ball selection is like club selection in golf.

Everyone has a bag of clubs...each club is meant to do something different (and like bowling, very much related to distance).

Most golfers start out with their driver and finish with their putter. Over the course of their 2-14 shots they take on each hole...they "PROGRESS" through their bag. Very rarely, would they start with a driver, then use a 5 iron, then get closer to the hole and use a driver. The clubs go up in number the closer you get to the hole...until you're using a pitching or sand wedge...then a putter.

Does that mean you ALWAYS start with a driver? No. Some holes are very short...and even the oldest, female, weaker golfers would need to use something other than a driver. Some guys (and gals) have such a good swing, that they are better off starting with a 4 iron off the tee than a driver for even shorter par 4 holes. Or SOMETIMES...you have to play a hole by landing a shot somewhere near a dog leg...not drive the whole distance of the hole.

Can you learn from what other golfers are doing? Sure. There's been many a time I've grabbed one iron and then notice that other players were using a certain iron and I thought..."hmmm...maybe I should get something else."

Does that mean, before every hole, I take out every club from driver to putter...take a few swings with each...and figure out what the best club to tee off with is?? Ideally, that would be nice...but practically speaking...no, of course we don't. The clubs are numbered to give us a roadmap. Our strength and ability are going to vary...so that just because I am golfing with Tiger Woods and he uses a 7 iron when he's 195 out...doesn't mean I should use a 7-iron when I'm 195 yards out.

So...you have to think about it in terms of extremes. Is it good to be a golfer that ALWAYS starts with their driver...whether it's a 660 yard par 6 or a 90 yard par3? Of course not. That's just stupidity. But if you're playing a course where every hole is 330 yards...no dog legs or trees...wouldn't you start with your driver on every hole...just because you know you can't hit your 3-wood 300 yards? Would you switch from a driver to a 5-iron because Tom Daly just teed off with a 5 iron and drilled the ball 250 yards?

Now, in my case, I illegally carry 4 drivers...so I may have some options on the tee boxes based on topography...but thats just me. :rolleyes:

Likewise...if your arsenal is built like a golf bag...where you move left (or right for the disabled LHers out there) and ball down...is it really valuable...on a league night (NOT a tournament)...at a house you play every week or twice a week...to try every ball in your bag during the 10 minute practice?? Probably not. If you're lucky in practice...and you make good shots...and you get to throw more than 3 balls...and you're bowling against players with similar equipment and similar physical characteristics...and a similar path to the breakpoint....'maybe' you see something that makes you think you might want to start with Ball #2 instead of Ball #1...but unless the oil machine broke or a pipe burst under the lane...or they forgot to oil...or something funky happened...that THS isn't changing dramatically week-to-week...so neither should your ball selection process. IMO.

[Amyers]

I know me, RobM, and Amyers have beat this topic to death over the years...but the way I think about it is this:

Bowling ball selection is like club selection in golf.

Everyone has a bag of clubs...each club is meant to do something different (and like bowling, very much related to distance).

Most golfers start out with their driver and finish with their putter. Over the course of their 2-14 shots they take on each hole...they "PROGRESS" through their bag. Very rarely, would they start with a driver, then use a 5 iron, then get closer to the hole and use a driver. The clubs go up in number the closer you get to the hole...until you're using a pitching or sand wedge...then a putter.

Does that mean you ALWAYS start with a driver? No. Some holes are very short...and even the oldest, female, weaker golfers would need to use something other than a driver. Some guys (and gals) have such a good swing, that they are better off starting with a 4 iron off the tee than a driver for even shorter par 4 holes. Or SOMETIMES...you have to play a hole by landing a shot somewhere near a dog leg...not drive the whole distance of the hole.

Can you learn from what other golfers are doing? Sure. There's been many a time I've grabbed one iron and then notice that other players were using a certain iron and I thought..."hmmm...maybe I should get something else."

Does that mean, before every hole, I take out every club from driver to putter...take a few swings with each...and figure out what the best club to tee off with is?? Ideally, that would be nice...but practically speaking...no, of course we don't. The clubs are numbered to give us a roadmap. Our strength and ability are going to vary...so that just because I am golfing with Tiger Woods and he uses a 7 iron when he's 195 out...doesn't mean I should use a 7-iron when I'm 195 yards out.

So...you have to think about it in terms of extremes. Is it good to be a golfer that ALWAYS starts with their driver...whether it's a 660 yard par 6 or a 90 yard par3? Of course not. That's just stupidity. But if you're playing a course where every hole is 330 yards...no dog legs or trees...wouldn't you start with your driver on every hole...just because you know you can't hit your 3-wood 300 yards? Would you switch from a driver to a 5-iron because Tom Daly just teed off with a 5 iron and drilled the ball 250 yards?

Now, in my case, I illegally carry 4 drivers...so I may have some options on the tee boxes based on topography...but thats just me. :rolleyes:

Likewise...if your arsenal is built like a golf bag...where you move left (or right for the disabled LHers out there) and ball down...is it really valuable...on a league night (NOT a tournament)...at a house you play every week or twice a week...to try every ball in your bag during the 10 minute practice?? Probably not. If you're lucky in practice...and you make good shots...and you get to throw more than 3 balls...and you're bowling against players with similar equipment and similar physical characteristics...and a similar path to the breakpoint....'maybe' you see something that makes you think you might want to start with Ball #2 instead of Ball #1...but unless the oil machine broke or a pipe burst under the lane...or they forgot to oil...or something funky happened...that THS isn't changing dramatically week-to-week...so neither should your ball selection process. IMO.

Not sure what your getting at here really the lane is 40ft long no matter which ball your throwing. I can throw a strike with any ball in the bag including the spare ball at any time. it's about deciding which line will give me the most miss room not which one will get there. If I have a doubt that it will get there it's not going in the bag period in bowling.

During your typical league you shouldn't be finding conditions regularly where a ball won't get there. Maybe in an extended tournament you see lanes so dry you can't move enough to keep in in the pocket or on a sport shot league you see conditions so wet you can't get your dryer lane stuff to pick up at all but if your finding that during a 3 or 4 game typical league setting you need to learn to bowl or find a different center ( most likely the first option)

[boatman37]

I typically get maybe 4 or 5 practice shots in warmups but if I miss my target on 2 of those then I really only have 2 or 3 that I can rely on. The other night in warmups I was erratic and didn't hit the pocket once. First frame of the 1st game was a pocket strike and that was about my only pocket hit until the 3rd game. I didn't try any other balls cause I assumed the problem was me.

[Aslan]

I guess my point is...if you always bowl at the SAME HOUSE...same THS...same lane surfaces (other than slight variations from pair to pair)...you should have a pretty darn good idea what ball to start with.

Now, I bowl at different centers...but I have notes regarding my starting feet/target positions. So, for example, if I'm at House A, I might start out in practice standing with my left toe on 18 and my target at 7-8 just above the dots. At House B, I may start out with my left toe at 20 and my target midway between the dots and the arrows at 9. So, I vary where I stand.

When I bowled 2-3 times a week at one center...which had lanes on two sides of the house (and they tend to play differently when on two sides of a house versus one side)...I had bowled league on almost every lane...multiple times...so I actually had a chart of where to stand and aim...for every single lane. Some nights I may have to adjust a little in practice...then I update the chart. But I almost never needed to start with a different ball...and the 1-3 times I DID...I think the center either forgot or decided not to oil before league.

I guess thats my point...if you bowl the same house (90% do)...THS (98% do)...and the league applies fresh oil prior to league play (I'd say 90% do)...how are your lanes changing so much night to night?

That's why I recommended that Boatman put some distance between his 1st two balls. A Conspiracy at 2000 and a Kingpin at 3000...those are essentially the same ball with essentially the same surface. It's gonna be a toss up as to which one is the better choice any given night. But if he took that Kingpin surface to 2500 and hit it with Royal Compound on the spinner...I think the Kingpin would be noticeably shinier and he'd get a better gap between ball #1 and ball #2...at which point he'd probably never want to start with the Kingpin...because it would probably go too long on the fresh.

[boatman37]

I guess my point is...if you always bowl at the SAME HOUSE...same THS...same lane surfaces (other than slight variations from pair to pair)...you should have a pretty darn good idea what ball to start with.

Now, I bowl at different centers...but I have notes regarding my starting feet/target positions. So, for example, if I'm at House A, I might start out in practice standing with my left toe on 18 and my target at 7-8 just above the dots. At House B, I may start out with my left toe at 20 and my target midway between the dots and the arrows at 9. So, I vary where I stand.

When I bowled 2-3 times a week at one center...which had lanes on two sides of the house (and they tend to play differently when on two sides of a house versus one side)...I had bowled league on almost every lane...multiple times...so I actually had a chart of where to stand and aim...for every single lane. Some nights I may have to adjust a little in practice...then I update the chart. But I almost never needed to start with a different ball...and the 1-3 times I DID...I think the center either forgot or decided not to oil before league.

I guess thats my point...if you bowl the same house (90% do)...THS (98% do)...and the league applies fresh oil prior to league play (I'd say 90% do)...how are your lanes changing so much night to night?

That's why I recommended that Boatman put some distance between his 1st two balls. A Conspiracy at 2000 and a Kingpin at 3000...those are essentially the same ball with essentially the same surface. It's gonna be a toss up as to which one is the better choice any given night. But if he took that Kingpin surface to 2500 and hit it with Royal Compound on the spinner...I think the Kingpin would be noticeably shinier and he'd get a better gap between ball #1 and ball #2...at which point he'd probably never want to start with the Kingpin...because it would probably go too long on the fresh.


Thats what I'm trying to figure out. The Kingpin was at 500 before and it was slightly stronger than the Conspiracy. Before league the other night I hit it with 3000 real quick (like 10 seconds). I bowl at the same house except the one tournament I entered. Lanes have been a little drier the last couple weeks for some reason which is why I hit the kingpin with 3000. It was about equal to the Conspiracy then. Going to see if my PSO has compound in stock and maybe throw the Kingpin on his spinner before we start. I don't have a 2500 pad. I went 2000 on the spinner cause I was thinking 2000 wet on the spinner would probably be close to 3000 dry for 10 seconds by hand?

Summer league starts this Tuesday and there are only 4 of us on a pair and we get 10 minutes of practice so should give me a chance to dial it in

[RobLV1]

Boatman: Please don't get sidetracked by Aslan's discussions of ball "progressions." It's nonsense! You cannot "create" order in the chaotic world of bowling; no matter how hard you try. The only order that you can create is within yourself by accepting the chaos and learning to deal with it.

[boatman37]

Boatman: Please don't get sidetracked by Aslan's discussions of ball "progressions." It's nonsense! You cannot "create" order in the chaotic world of bowling; no matter how hard you try. The only order that you can create is within yourself by accepting the chaos and learning to deal with it.

lol. I create my own chaos. But yeah the Kingpin and Conspiracy were almost identical and had a big gap up to the BWG so wanted something that I could use in the 3rd game. Lanes have been drier the last couple weeks and get worse as the night goes on so wanted an option for then. But yeah, with my inconsistency it's hard to say ball A will do this and ball B will do that

[Aslan]

Thats what I'm trying to figure out. The Kingpin was at 500 before and it was slightly stronger than the Conspiracy.
Yes, the ball with identical specs when at a 500 surface is goingo to be 'stronger (actually, not stronger, just hook sooner) than the ball with identical specs at 2000.


Before league the other night I hit it with 3000 real quick (like 10 seconds).
By hand I'm assuming...which is the equivalent of rolling on the carpet.


I bowl at the same house except the one tournament I entered. Lanes have been a little drier the last couple weeks for some reason which is why I hit the kingpin with 3000. It was about equal to the Conspiracy then.
Like I said...the Kingpin at 3000 and Conspiracy at 2000...is essentially the same ball and there isn't enough of a noticeable difference with that minor surface difference.


Going to see if my PSO has compound in stock and maybe throw the Kingpin on his spinner before we start. I don't have a 2500 pad.
I don't think they make a 2500 pad...maybe they do. Just use a used 2000 and it should be about 2500.


I went 2000 on the spinner cause I was thinking 2000 wet on the spinner would probably be close to 3000 dry for 10 seconds by hand? I would say that is 98% incorrect. 10 seconds by hand with a 3000 pad is about the same as it bouncing around in your bag on the way to the lanes...or your bowling towel having dust on it. It doesn't do anything. Hand sanding is essentially useless...and it's mathematically useless...see:

A ball spinner uses horepower to spin a ball at revolutions per minute (RPMs). Most personal ball spinners, like Innovative, have a single speed of 435-475 RPMs. My ball spinner is a 2-speed and runs at 450 or 650. To properly surface the ball on a ball spinner, to lets say 2500 in this example...you would wet sand 4 sides at 500, then 4 sides at 1000, then 4 sides with a used 2000.

Now lets say, you just hit it with the one 2500 pad...and don't do the other two grits...for about 11 seconds per side...cuz you're in a hurry. Thats 44 seconds at 475rpms = 348 1/3 revolutions.

Now, consider that you can at LEAST double that number in terms of effect...because when you sand with a spinner you are applying at LEAST double the pressure...so that's essentially equal to 696 2/3 revolutions by hand.

Now, try to spin a ball in your hand. I'm OLD...not RobM or Iceman old...but I'm gettin up there...and I can only spin that ball maybe 30 times before I get tired. Let's say you're young and amazingly in shape....and can do 4x that...okay....thats 120 times.

120/696.6666 - ).1722 so approximately 17.25% as effective. And that's with me estimating as conservative as possible and not factoring in the other two levels of sanding that I WOULD DO...at 500 and 1000....nor my 3x (versus double) pressure because I have my ball spinner on the floor and get more leverage.

So, in that example...a ball spinner is at LEAST 5.8x (5.8*120 = 696) more effective...at LEAST.


Boatman: Please don't get sidetracked by Aslan's discussions of ball "progressions." It's nonsense! You cannot "create" order in the chaotic world of bowling; no matter how hard you try. The only order that you can create is within yourself by accepting the chaos and learning to deal with it.
Okay Jeff Goldblum in Jurrassic Park.

[six6guy]

Yes, the ball with identical specs when at a 500 surface is goingo to be 'stronger (actually, not stronger, just hook sooner) than the ball with identical specs at 2000.


Maybe this is a pearl thing, but I was thinking that there is an oil/slip factor and a surface contact effect as well. Maybe the OP rolled at different times or at different target areas. I know if I wet polish a pearl with slipping agent I get more of a sharp angle at the pins than if I then hit the same ball with wet 2000 after that, both hitting the same target area (maybe 10 minutes apart).

Brad

[vdubtx]

Boatman: Please don't get sidetracked by Aslan's discussions of ball "progressions." It's nonsense! You cannot "create" order in the chaotic world of bowling; no matter how hard you try. The only order that you can create is within yourself by accepting the chaos and learning to deal with it.

LOL!!

Absolutely agree with Rob. There is no ball progression that will be the same week in and week out. You play the lane and use the best ball for what the reaction is showing you when you roll it.

[Aslan]

LOL!!

Absolutely agree with Rob. There is no ball progression that will be the same week in and week out. You play the lane and use the best ball for what the reaction is showing you when you roll it.

By all means...please fill us in on how you apply this chaos theory on league night.

How does one go through multiple approaches, hand positions, lines, and an 8-ball arsenal in 10 minutes of practice time??

Mathematically, there are 189 potential combinations. Even if you have the lanes to yourself in that 10 minutes of practice...you'd need to throw 18.9 shots (per lane...due to lane-to-lane variation) per minute. Are you "The Flash"? Can "The Flash" even vary his ball speed? I dunno...never thought about it.

i mean, I don't disagree...trying 189 different potential combinations....with enough time...one could theoretically determine the absolute best release, line, speed, and ball for each side of the pair. You could be doing a 3-step approach with 45 degrees hand hand tilt, 16.2 mph, with your sanded solid Storm ball in the left side of the pair...and a 5-step approach, with a flattened hand position, throwing 17.9mph, with your polished Hammer ball on the right side of the pair...and it would be PERFECTION...

...granted...it's absurd. Completely absurd. Mathematically and logistically impossible. Which is why nearly every PBA pro...without one exception I can think of...uses a progression system. Now, granted, they have a day of practice before tournaments, a truck full of bowling ball options, and a team of ball reps to help them put together the best progression for the tournament they are participating in...but at the end of the day...they have a finite set of equipment...they have balls they start with...and balls they go to next...and balls they go to next, etc... It's not stubbornness of failure to recognize the multitude of variables...it's simply strategy that maximizes their chances at making the correct adjustments.

Last time I checked...the bowler in the stepladder finals gets a small number of shots before the next round starts....not a 2-hour practice session on each lane to go through every ball in the truck (or even in their bag).

As I've said before...I give RobM an A+ in theory, an A in originality...but a D in practicality concerning his "chaos theory" approach to ball selection and ball transition. And I find it "odd" that his chaos theory applies to ball selection...but not bowler to bowler observations. In other words, I can't trust what a certain ball might do or what ball might be the "best option" given limited shots in practice...but I'm supposed to be able to learn everything I need to know about how to play the lanes by watching 3-4 random bowlers that are also bowling on the pair. I'm supposed to trust their breakpoint....and discount the line they took to get there...the speed they took to get there...the revs they were at once they got there...and the difference in the ball they were throwing.

The "progression system" is used by every pro in the game...it was taught to me by a pro...it's referenced in Rob Johnson's recent videos Bowl1820 posted...so I have no second thoughts about advocating for it. Does everyone have their own way of using that progression system to ultimately select the ball they start with on league night (or at a tournament)...sure. But, at the end of the day...even if you have a ton of time and are a "chaos theory" person...just ask yourself what % of time you used the same ball to start on league night at a given house on a THS. Go ahead...calculate the %...I'd be SHOCKED if anyone had a % lower than 80%....SHOCKED. The center, the THS, the lanes...they don't change that much...they CAN'T change that much. It's the same guy with the same oil machine using the same oil. Sure, there are fluctuations based on temperature and humidity and topography...but enough for a person to switch to urethane from resin? From a 2.49RG to a 2.57 RG? If your THS on league night is changing THAT much...something is up. A broken oil machine...a drunk lane maintenance guy...maybe Iceman with a mop???

[Amyers]

By all means...please fill us in on how you apply this chaos theory on league night.

How does one go through multiple approaches, hand positions, lines, and an 8-ball arsenal in 10 minutes of practice time??

Mathematically, there are 189 potential combinations. Even if you have the lanes to yourself in that 10 minutes of practice...you'd need to throw 18.9 shots (per lane...due to lane-to-lane variation) per minute. Are you "The Flash"? Can "The Flash" even vary his ball speed? I dunno...never thought about it.

i mean, I don't disagree...trying 189 different potential combinations....with enough time...one could theoretically determine the absolute best release, line, speed, and ball for each side of the pair. You could be doing a 3-step approach with 45 degrees hand hand tilt, 16.2 mph, with your sanded solid Storm ball in the left side of the pair...and a 5-step approach, with a flattened hand position, throwing 17.9mph, with your polished Hammer ball on the right side of the pair...and it would be PERFECTION...

...granted...it's absurd. Completely absurd. Mathematically and logistically impossible. Which is why nearly every PBA pro...without one exception I can think of...uses a progression system. Now, granted, they have a day of practice before tournaments, a truck full of bowling ball options, and a team of ball reps to help them put together the best progression for the tournament they are participating in...but at the end of the day...they have a finite set of equipment...they have balls they start with...and balls they go to next...and balls they go to next, etc... It's not stubbornness of failure to recognize the multitude of variables...it's simply strategy that maximizes their chances at making the correct adjustments.

Last time I checked...the bowler in the stepladder finals gets a small number of shots before the next round starts....not a 2-hour practice session on each lane to go through every ball in the truck (or even in their bag).

As I've said before...I give RobM an A+ in theory, an A in originality...but a D in practicality concerning his "chaos theory" approach to ball selection and ball transition. And I find it "odd" that his chaos theory applies to ball selection...but not bowler to bowler observations. In other words, I can't trust what a certain ball might do or what ball might be the "best option" given limited shots in practice...but I'm supposed to be able to learn everything I need to know about how to play the lanes by watching 3-4 random bowlers that are also bowling on the pair. I'm supposed to trust their breakpoint....and discount the line they took to get there...the speed they took to get there...the revs they were at once they got there...and the difference in the ball they were throwing.

The "progression system" is used by every pro in the game...it was taught to me by a pro...it's referenced in Rob Johnson's recent videos Bowl1820 posted...so I have no second thoughts about advocating for it. Does everyone have their own way of using that progression system to ultimately select the ball they start with on league night (or at a tournament)...sure. But, at the end of the day...even if you have a ton of time and are a "chaos theory" person...just ask yourself what % of time you used the same ball to start on league night at a given house on a THS. Go ahead...calculate the %...I'd be SHOCKED if anyone had a % lower than 80%....SHOCKED. The center, the THS, the lanes...they don't change that much...they CAN'T change that much. It's the same guy with the same oil machine using the same oil. Sure, there are fluctuations based on temperature and humidity and topography...but enough for a person to switch to urethane from resin? From a 2.49RG to a 2.57 RG? If your THS on league night is changing THAT much...something is up. A broken oil machine...a drunk lane maintenance guy...maybe Iceman with a mop???

Vdub and Rob are not stating you should try 189 different combos. If I take three balls with me on league night if I throw my Badger Claw down my line it hits the pocket but I don't like the way it hits. I can pick up my Ridiculous pearl move 4-2 right it's a strike if I pull out my Einstein it's a 1-1 move left in the pocket. It's not about figuring out how to bowl it's about understanding your arsenal. Every ball you own will get to the pocket with an adjustment. Know your arsenal

[ALazySavage]

Not trying to receive the wrath of anyone on this post, but I am going to map out what I did on my last night of house shot league and the different choices I went through in order to show an alternative way to the progression method that Aslan is mentioning (I apologize in advance that this is going to be a little lengthy)…

Bowling in a Tuesday night "mom-and-pop" fun league on the high end of the house with a THS - other than two pairs, the majority on this side play similar.


As I always do, I started with my benchmark ball (a symmetrical core ball with 2-3k surface). I will throw a few shots (2/3) following Susie Minshew's recommended lines to read what the ball wants to do. A few things that can change on the lanes week to week for me are how I feel physically, if they stripped the lanes or applied a fill shot, topography, and if the lane person decided to put down a slightly different shot.
Depending on how these shots rolled I can either stay with my benchmark ball, gain some length typically by throwing a polished ball (if I need more angle or feel the ball is picking up early), or go "nuclear" and take an asymmetrical with surface. I did want a little more length but wanted the back end pop so I went with the asymm with polish.
This option worked for a while, but bowling against a team with less ball speed and a lot of surface created fronts that I didn't want to play with anymore. They were typically up the track so I fortunately had two decisions - [a] move left with a potential ball change, [b] move right and try to swing around what they created, or [c] just make a ball change. I did have one teammate left of me and I knew they had a good reaction so I decided to move left with the same ball.
Moving inside I found that I could not get the ball to pick up as early as I personally like and I was getting a very volatile reaction on the backends (conserving too much energy). Knowing I did not want to go back to the warzone being created around the track I ended up "balling up" to the solid asymmetrical (this is where I have personal issues with the progression method, in theory it works when you are staying in the same part of the lane but if you make a move and encounter a different volume of oil you can find yourself in trouble since it essentially eliminates balling up. And I would say that 50% of bowlers (conservative?) don't seem to know how to move so you can often find fried fronts and relatively untouched fronts pretty close to each other). Other moves would have been to ball down to my polished symmetrical try to force it through the trash created (or even hope that outside of it would work, although once this burns out I'm in a lot of trouble with a huge move in my future), keep the same ball and slow down ball speed, adjust tilt, etc.
At the end I ended up going back to the asymm polished ball once I personally ate up the front oil a little bit and was able to swing the ball and create a shape I preferred. Many of the people around the track stayed there and created a nightmare of a shot in that area and their scores reflected that.


I'm not saying that the way I do things works better than a progression method or any other method, just showing a situation where a progression would not have worked - if applied I would not have balled up to a solid assym ball which was what the lanes were presenting as the correct option. The benefit of the progression is creating a path to make decisions easier, but sometimes it forces you into the wrong choice/eliminates the best choice. We bowl against different teams, different bowlers, and different equipment each week and the lanes will not always break down in the same manner.

[mc_runner]

100% agree with Amyers. There's no good reason to fiddle with as many variables as you're saying, Aslan. You have a ball that's going to give you a read of the lanes, change balls or move if you don't like it. Play the line the lanes are giving you!

[boatman37]

Well What I did worked....sort of. I threw them on the spinner the other day and hit the Conspiracy with 2000 matte, the Kingpin 3000 matte, and Rhino 4000 polished. I didn't use the BWG tonight so we will leave that out. The Kingpin and Conspiracy were almost identical again tonight. Started with yjr Kingpin and was hitting light. Switched to the Conspiracy in the 8th frame and made an adjustment. 2nd game came alive. Conspiracy loved the refreshed surface. 166, 191, 233, 205. I did notice I was releasing inconsistently early in game 4 and think I may have been doing it in game 1 also

[JasonNJ]

I think what Rob and Vdub disagree with Aslan about is a set progression system. The lanes will tell you where to play and what balls you should use. If you have a set system, and the last ball in your system is the best for the night, you may never get to it or get to it too late. Lane conditions can vary so much from pair to pair and week to week that you need to watch your ball reaction and then adjust accordingly.

[Aslan]

I think what Rob and Vdub disagree with Aslan about is a set progression system. The lanes will tell you where to play and what balls you should use. If you have a set system, and the last ball in your system is the best for the night, you may never get to it or get to it too late. Lane conditions can vary so much from pair to pair and week to week that you need to watch your ball reaction and then adjust accordingly.

I'm actually not "100% clear" on what Rob and VDub are objecting to. I've read numerous articles by Rob...and he has advocated in the past for a arsenal selection based on varying RGs. I'm assuming that he, VDub, and others have a "system" for how they adjust to the lanes...sort of what LazySavage was talking about...I don't think VDub nor Rob get a bad reaction and flip a coin. So, I don't 'think' the disagreement is about how to "progress" through your arsenal based on ball reactions and results you are seeing.

I 'think'...the disagreement is more about how to take 4-8 balls (actually 3-7...spare ball) and decide what ball to start with.

I used to have a system where I would use a "benchmark ball"...that was my "middle reaction" ball...and if I needed more hook...or an earlier look...I'd ball up...if I needed less reaction...a longer look..I could ball down. The 'problem' with that approach was:

1) If you don't have enough time in practice...you likely will start with the wrong ball.
2) While it helped find that 'starting ball', it was horrible for figuring out what the next ball...next ball...next ball should be....because I didn't truly understand the specs nor ball motion at that point. Ironically, it's my interactions with RobM that really helped me gain a better understanding of ball specs and how those specs affect ball motion.

Working with a coach, I was able to learn how the pros set up their arsenals...not "strongest to weakest" (per se)...but how to move from one 'type' of ball to another....based on what the lanes are likely to do. It's based on very simple facts about bowling...that are true everywhere...every center...everywhere...with modern bowlingballs.

1) Bowling balls absorb oil...as they do this...you need to move left to be able to stay in the oil. This was an important lesson for me, as a bowler, and one that Rob had also preached when I worked with him. Moving right...is almost always a bad idea.
2) (and Rob sort of refutes this one a bit) Over time, not only do bowling balls absorb oil...but plastic and urethane balls tend to 'push' oil down the lane. This effect may be negligible over 1-3 games...maybe even over 4-10 games...kinda depends on the number of shots thrown with non-reactive resin balls. This is called "carrydown"...and it's been around forever. MUCH less of an issue now...with reactive resin...than it was 30-40 years ago.

KNOWING that oil gets absorbed by resin balls (causing moves left) and that carrydown 'could' exist near your breakpoint (as the night goes on)...a bowler can assemble a 'progression" style arsenal....meaning...a ball you generally will start with...a ball (or balls) you can ball down to as lanes transition...and a skid/flip stronger/longer type ball to combat carrydown (should you encounter it).

Every bowler has a slightly different approach to this.

- Some bowlers, like me, like to stay in one general area...so my progression balls down...so I never have to make a huge move left to get ahead of those left of me. I don't realistically have the "hand" to start moving left and competing with thumbless, 2-handed, and Mark Roth type guys. I'd have to drastically change my approach, timing, and balls speed to do so. I also don't want to set up a progression that makes me start around 1st arrow. I like the up-and-in shot...but playing the 1-3 boards usually results in my pulling my shots to avoid the gutter.

- Some bowlers (see Rob Johnson's video) have a modified method I described...where he has a larger arsenal (6 balls versus my 3) and can decide whether to go to a ball #2 versus #3 based on how the lanes are playing and the scoring pace. I think this method is a bit too advanced for most bowlers...and requires a large arsenal...and good competition (to guage your move off of).

- Some (higher level) bowlers have a few different "progressions"...because they are at a level where they play different houses quite a bit...places they've never played before...sport/challenge conditions, etc... One single progression may not work very well if one week you're on a 42ft PBA pattern and the next week you're on a 26ft flat pattern. These bowlers also can vary their speeds and hand positions and approaches effectively and can gain a lot of information from opponents (and usually ball reps).

The bowlers NOT mentioned above...are what I consider the "chaos theory" league bowlers...and we've ALL bowled with them at one point or another (or still do regularly)...who switch balls for apparently no other reason than they aren't striking. They can't explain why...they don't have any idea about balls losing energy....or carrydown...and couldn't explain ONE ball spec...but if I left a split...it must be the ball...guess I need to randomly try another one. I KNOW...neither Rob (nor VDub) are this type of 'chaos bowler'.

The "discussion"...seems to be: "How do you decide the FIRST ball to start using?" No matter WHAT your progression system...what ball do you start with?

And, as these discussions have went in the past, we get into a theoretical optimum versus a practical reality. MOST bowlers have about 4 shots in practice. I've bowled in leagues where I had the whole 10 minutes to meyself...and I'd wear myself out in practice throwing shot after shot. And, I've been in 5-man leagues where you better make each practice shot count...cuz you'll be lucky to get more than 2 shots on each side.

For ME...with 4-5 shots to work with...I generally don't have the time to mess around with trying Ball #2. I certainly don't have time to play with alternative lines and approaches. And...EVEN IF I DID...it's a THS shot...it's the same shot every week. It may vary a "little"...I'm aware of Rob's and Suzie's work on the subject...but a 'little'. That 'little' means you might have a better look with your next ball choice (in your progression system) IF you have a large arsenal (5-9 balls).

CASE IN POINT:
When I bowled REGULARLY at one house in California...like 2-3 times a week...I created chart where my feet/target should be for EACH LANE. This was a tiered house (split center) and one side certainly played differently than the other. The "variation"?

LOW SIDE:
Left Toe: Between 25 and 20
Target (generally at the arrows): Between 10 and 13

HIGH SIDE:
Left Toe: Between 18 and 26
Target (generally at the arrows): Between 9.5 and 13

I started with the same ball (4-ball arsenal) about 96-99% of the time. I may have needed to move my feet/target 1:1 or 1:2 to account for pair to pair variation...humidity...topography...etc...; but generally the shot was what the shot was. Carry ultimately depended on my shot making and my ability to see when to move and when to change balls. Throwing the other 3 balls in practice...would have made no difference. The Ebonite ball would have went too long (because it was designed and surfaced to adapt to transition). The Hammer would have also went too long...as it was a less surface/similar spec ball to my Ball #1. And the Track ball I rarely ever used on league night on synthetics...it was practically a spare ball. Would it be "nice" to have 189 shots in practice (all quality shots) where I could experiment with every ball at every speed on every line, etc...? Sure, I guess. But am I really gonna mess with my timing to try and play an extreme angle when I don't have a hybrid (much less a solid) ball in my bag? Am I gonna try Balls #3-#4 up the 2-board even though I KNOW I'll end up pulling at LEAST 1/3 of those shots?

I believe you play YOUR GAME. The lanes will tell you where to start, when to move, and when to change balls. LISTEN to the lanes...I 100% agree with that sentiment. But don't over-complicate things. Don't try to play Belmo's line when you ain't Belmo!! I'm sure a 650rpm shot at 21mph is gonna be an AWESOME shot on most nights...probably the BEST shot on many nights....but if you can't do that...then don't pretend you can just because thats the IDEAL shot. The ideal ball may be the Hammer VIBE...but if you don't have a Hammer VIBE...don't run into the pro shop and try to hurry up and have the nearest spec ball drilled. Play your game, trust in the arsenal you know. Only ROB-E/WALLY the robot (whatever the USBC robot's name is) can truly blame the ball/lanes.

[vdubtx]

I'm actually not "100% clear" on what Rob and VDub are objecting to.

I didn't object to anything to be 100% clear. I simply don't expect to use the same ball or ball progression (if I am needing to switch balls) each and every week.

[Amyers]

I started with the same ball (4-ball arsenal) about 96-99% of the time. I may have needed to move my feet/target 1:1 or 1:2 to account for pair to pair variation...humidity...topography...etc...; but generally the shot was what the shot was. Carry ultimately depended on my shot making and my ability to see when to move and when to change balls. Throwing the other 3 balls in practice...would have made no difference. The Ebonite ball would have went too long (because it was designed and surfaced to adapt to transition). The Hammer would have also went too long...as it was a less surface/similar spec ball to my Ball #1. And the Track ball I rarely ever used on league night on synthetics...it was practically a spare ball. Would it be "nice" to have 189 shots in practice (all quality shots) where I could experiment with every ball at every speed on every line, etc...? Sure, I guess. But am I really gonna mess with my timing to try and play an extreme angle when I don't have a hybrid (much less a solid) ball in my bag? Am I gonna try Balls #3-#4 up the 2-board even though I KNOW I'll end up pulling at LEAST 1/3 of those shots?

I believe you play YOUR GAME. The lanes will tell you where to start, when to move, and when to change balls. LISTEN to the lanes...I 100% agree with that sentiment. But don't over-complicate things. Don't try to play Belmo's line when you ain't Belmo!! I'm sure a 650rpm shot at 21mph is gonna be an AWESOME shot on most nights...probably the BEST shot on many nights....but if you can't do that...then don't pretend you can just because thats the IDEAL shot. The ideal ball may be the Hammer VIBE...but if you don't have a Hammer VIBE...don't run into the pro shop and try to hurry up and have the nearest spec ball drilled. Play your game, trust in the arsenal you know. Only ROB-E/WALLY the robot (whatever the USBC robot's name is) can truly blame the ball/lanes.

This is where we differ you think you can't get to the pocket with these other balls or it's some huge jump (maybe it is for you) I've never seen that. Taking plastic out the weakest ball I've ever had in my bag vs the strongest ball I've ever had in my bag is maybe 6 and 3 different. A ball that goes longer might be 1-1 change it's not like your moving to the next lane to throw most balls. Most days I really believe I can throw plastic with a 6-3 move but I haven't proven myself with that one. I can guarantee you your Scandal Pearl is perfectly capable of reaching the pocket weather it's the first ball thrown or the 45th that night.

Having a ball with a "benchmark" reaction to start with makes some sense to start with as an intitule throw in practice as it might be good for a more even judgment of the lane. Having a ball #1 that you start with 95% of the time or believing it's the only one getting their is a huge mistake that you've been bowling long enough to know better.

[Aslan]

@ Amyers

Well, last night I actually had plenty of time to practice...2 of the 3 players on the other team were late. I warmed up...was making good shots...and I seemed to be lined up.

I had to make a slight vertical laydown adjustment on the right lane....no biggee.

Well...I seriously considered moving a little right and taking out the Warning Sign...maybe seeing what that shot looked like.

But, here's why I didn't bother:

1) Like you said, and I totally agree, you can find the pocket and probably strike with just about every ball in your bag...so why switch to another line and ball...when I already have one that is working?

2) (and this is the MOST important in terms of having a 'progression')...IF you do that...and you go to Ball #2...even though Ball #1 was working just fine...you've now taken 1 of your 4 strike balls out of the game.

If there's transition...I'm gonna need to switch to the Scandal Pearl before there's enough carrydown for the Scandal Pearl to be effective. It's going to over-hook. Which means, by starting with Ball #2, I've potentially knocked 2 of 4 of my balls out of the game...or at least would need to give up on Game 2 until there's (hopefully) enough carrydown where the Scandal Pearl will be effective.

I suppose I could ball down to the 300A...but that's a HUGE jump down...I'll likely be out at the 5-board praying the 300A has enough energy to at least give me a little carry.

My best comparison would be a bowling ball arsenal to a MLB pitching rotation. You have a starter, a middle reliever, and a closer. Your middle reliever 'may' be pitching the best...but if you try to start him...he's gonna have to go more innings than he's used to...or you'll have to bring in your closer way too early. Likewise, the bowling ball progression is sort of a "team approach" to tackling lane conditions...each ball has a role to play. Each ball in the progression is designed to be utilized for a specific task. Balls have been chosen and surfaces adjusted so that each ball fits in that slot. The Warning sign isn't a Ball #1...not only because of specs...but because of how I surfaced it.

If I go to Vegas, or a tournament, or play on a sport pattern...I can alter surfaces...but the progression stays the same...because I can't alter specs. I can't change out cores or switch coverstocks. Like Rob Johnson said in his video, you aren't going to be successful trying to make a ball do something it wasn't designed to do.

I'm not saying you stubbonly NEVER start with Ball #2...I've done it. But it takes enough shots in practice to see that simply moving left isn't going to carry with that ball on that lane. Would I ever start with Ball #3? Probably not. If Ball #1 isn't working...Ball #3 is almost guaranteed not to work. Would I start with Ball #4? Maybe...if they didn't oil the lanes...wood lanes...maybe.

Now, the PROS...they have much larger arsenals...so they can make some more elaborate decisions. They also don't bowl on a THS....they need more options. If I had a 6-ball or 8-ball arsenal...would I be more likely to try 2-3 balls in practice (if I had the time)? Probably...almost certainly. Because, I'd still have plenty of options to switch to...plenty of balls downstream in the progression. But, with a 4-ball (essentially 3-ball) arsenal?? Probably not...because taking my starting pitcher out of the game after 2 innings means I'm going to have problems by the 6th inning. Larger arsenals = more pitchers in the bullpen...maybe another fresh starter...or 3-4 middle relievers...

[mc_runner]

Would you ever go from "ball 2" to "ball 1" and move inside? A big part of the game today is balling up and moving in if the lanes call for it.

[Amyers]

@ Amyers

Well, last night I actually had plenty of time to practice...2 of the 3 players on the other team were late. I warmed up...was making good shots...and I seemed to be lined up.

Well...I seriously considered moving a little right and taking out the Warning Sign...maybe seeing what that shot looked like.

But, here's why I didn't bother:

1) Like you said, and I totally agree, you can find the pocket and probably strike with just about every ball in your bag...so why switch to another line and ball...when I already have one that is working?

2) (and this is the MOST important in terms of having a 'progression')...IF you do that...and you go to Ball #2...even though Ball #1 was working just fine...you've now taken 1 of your 4 strike balls out of the game.

If there's transition...I'm gonna need to switch to the Scandal Pearl before there's enough carrydown for the Scandal Pearl to be effective. It's going to over-hook. Which means, by starting with Ball #2, I've potentially knocked 2 of 4 of my balls out of the game...or at least would need to give up on Game 2 until there's (hopefully) enough carrydown where the Scandal Pearl will be effective.



And this is where I don't think your quite getting it.

1. Carry down doesn't exist in modern bowling especially with a ball like the Scandal. So it's not going to remove it from play.
2. Starting off with ball #2 doesn't preclude throwing ball #1. if you want to start off with #2 that will necessitate a move right usually. Make a move left and go to the stronger ball it works.

This is the point. It's okay if you order the balls in your head 1,2,3,4. Thinking you have to use them in that order is plain wrong headed. You have to understand which balls are more or less in your head and be able to switch between them.

If your using plastic or urethane I will give you it may be necessary to consider the possibility of carry down if your bowling a group with a lot of urethane or plastic they are throwing. Personally I doubt this happens often but I'll admit the possibility but only if both groups are making a high percentage of use those types of covers. If your using reactive resin it dose not exist. I do occasionally use plastic in league and I haven't seen carry down with it in years either. Simply the odds of 3 or more bowlers playing the same area with plastic or urethan equipment and you happening to even some what hit their carry down spots consistently are astronomical.

[Aslan]

Would you ever go from "ball 2" to "ball 1" and move inside? A big part of the game today is balling up and moving in if the lanes call for it.

With a bigger arsenal...maybe. But not with the current arsenal. Moving left of everyone else I don't have the ball and I have too much speed. I could try to slow my approach, but that'll just mess with my timing. Plus, I'm usually not the furthest left...so I'd just be moving onto someone else's transitioned area. So once Ball #1 is spent...and the lanes have transitioned enough...there's almost never a reason to go back to it.

@Amyers
I think the other big point of contention is how much change you 'really' see. I know Suzie and Rob have done some research...and I read alot of it...and don't disagree with their findings...but the effects are not "really" noticeable...not to the extent that you need all these variations in releases and balls and speeds and lines. And thats part of my point.

Sure...if you're VDub and you're bowling the USBC Masters or sport patter tournaments...or even if you're in a really high level travel league (if those even exist anymore)...sure...you might need to vary up some things. I read that the Pros have three releases, three lines, and at least 2 approaches (5-step, 4-step, 3-step). Add a choice of an unlimited number of balls and drilling angles. They need all that "choice" to adapt to some drastically different conditions.

Now lets look at ourselves (for most of us). We bowl 1 house...maybe 2. We never see anything but a THS on league night. We probably don't even play the entire house...maybe our league is delegated to just one side of the house. That makes your variations that you need to prepare for...EXCEEDINGLY small. Honestly, most of us that bring 3+ balls probably don't use all 3 more than 25% of the time.

I'm not saying there isn't "chaos"...but honestly...if you have the biggest effect of humidity or topography...and put it up against a 'slight' variation in your release...the slight release variation will almost certainly cause a larger reaction. Same thing with "drillings"...could they help maximize your game? Sure. But I'd take the better fit of a ball over a better drilling angle. I'd take a more ideal surfacing over a better drill angle anyday.

What TRULY has the greatest impact on ball motion, hitting the pocket, and carry?
1) Release
2) Speed control
3) Oil Pattern
4) Accuracy
5) Surface
6) The right ball

From there...it's a distant drop to:
7) How your opponents are affecting your line.
8) Drilling Layout
9) Lane to Lane topography variations

I think we did a poll on that topic at one point.

[Amyers]

@Amyers
I think the other big point of contention is how much change you 'really' see. I know Suzie and Rob have done some research...and I read alot of it...and don't disagree with their findings...but the effects are not "really" noticeable...not to the extent that you need all these variations in releases and balls and speeds and lines. And thats part of my point.

Sure...if you're VDub and you're bowling the USBC Masters or sport patter tournaments...or even if you're in a really high level travel league (if those even exist anymore)...sure...you might need to vary up some things. I read that the Pros have three releases, three lines, and at least 2 approaches (5-step, 4-step, 3-step). Add a choice of an unlimited number of balls and drilling angles. They need all that "choice" to adapt to some drastically different conditions.

I'm not sure how we got onto varying speed and releases and such. I personally have never advised anyone that they should adjust those. In my opinion most bowlers are lucky to have their primary half consistently. Nor have I ever suggested varied approaches or buying balls that are the same with different drillings. The converstation has been about being able to change into different balls at any point and not waiting for some mythical condition that doesn't exist.



Now lets look at ourselves (for most of us). We bowl 1 house...maybe 2. We never see anything but a THS on league night. We probably don't even play the entire house...maybe our league is delegated to just one side of the house. That makes your variations that you need to prepare for...EXCEEDINGLY small. Honestly, most of us that bring 3+ balls probably don't use all 3 more than 25% of the time.

I'm not saying there isn't "chaos"...but honestly...if you have the biggest effect of humidity or topography...and put it up against a 'slight' variation in your release...the slight release variation will almost certainly cause a larger reaction. Same thing with "drillings"...could they help maximize your game? Sure. But I'd take the better fit of a ball over a better drilling angle. I'd take a more ideal surfacing over a better drill angle anyday .

I'm pretty sure you backed up my point here. What's the biggest difference you ever really see on league night? Maybe 4-2 and that's rare. How much is the difference between your ball #1 and Ball #3? I personally don't buy hook monsters but the biggest I've seen is abut 6-3. If your primary target is 10 why can't you aim at 7 or 13 with just as good of results? that the point We've been arguing you should be making the decision on which ball to throw not the way you have them numbered in your head




What TRULY has the greatest impact on ball motion, hitting the pocket, and carry?
1) Release
2) Speed control
3) Oil Pattern
4) Accuracy
5) Surface
6) The right ball

From there...it's a distant drop to:
7) How your opponents are affecting your line.
8) Drilling Layout
9) Lane to Lane topography variations

I think we did a poll on that topic at one point.

I'm pretty sure you made my point again. Lets look at this slightly differently of the 9 items you listed here which ones are you truly in control of?

We both think #1+#2 are difficult to vary well
The house controls #3
#4 your having a good night or bad with your not flipping a switch
#7 your opponents control
#8 Your not changing
#9 you can't change

So basically the ball #5 and the surface #6 are then only items you get to choose!!!!

[Aslan]

I'm not sure how we got onto varying speed and releases and such. I personally have never advised anyone that they should adjust those. In my opinion most bowlers are lucky to have their primary half consistently. Nor have I ever suggested varied approaches or buying balls that are the same with different drillings. The converstation has been about being able to change into different balls at any point and not waiting for some mythical condition that doesn't exist.
So, in other words...the lanes can dictate which ball to throw (#5 on list of importance below)...but not the more important aspects of your game? If the lanes are SO chaotic...and there's SO much variation lane to lane that you need to try out numerous balls in you limited practice time...wouldn't trying different releases and footwork be even MORE necessary?

See...you 'think' I'm making your point...but you're really making mine. If the lanes can't be predicted from night to night and pair to pair...then simply trying a few different balls isn't going to get you to that magical "IDEAL" that the lanes are demanding. No?


I'm pretty sure you backed up my point here. What's the biggest difference you ever really see on league night? Maybe 4-2 and that's rare. How much is the difference between your ball #1 and Ball #3? I personally don't buy hook monsters but the biggest I've seen is abut 6-3. If your primary target is 10 why can't you aim at 7 or 13 with just as good of results? that the point We've been arguing you should be making the decision on which ball to throw not the way you have them numbered in your head
Well, this may be our difference. Like I said before...my bowling balls are set up to do different things. One of my earlier points to Boatman was he was trying to throw an almost identical ball and only vary the surface slightly and was expecting different reactions. That's not a good strategy in my book...nor is it what Rob Johnson described in his video. You want different balls with different specs to do different things. Where you move your feet...and possibly how you surface...should be how you fine tune your progression. Otherwise, you're not fighting the lanes...you're fighting your own ball.

Like I said, I can't throw ball#3 on a fresh THS...it's not designed for that...it wasn't chosen for that. The Thug Life has similar specs but with a surface designed to let me throw it in Game #1 (although it hasn't been an ideal ball #1 because of the specs). I could try and resurface the Scandal Pearl to be identical to the Thug Life...then I could throw it on fresh...but I already have a ball with the same specs for that spot and doing so leaves me no skid/flip ball #3 option. Like I said, I could try the 300A...maybe play the 4-board...hope the boards out there are playable...but yeah...to answer your question...the diffference in ball motion from the Thug Life to the Track 300A...is not minor...it's at LEAST 4 boards with my eyes and probably 9-11 with my feet...moving right...which is the wrong direction to move in modern bowling.





I'm pretty sure you made my point again. Lets look at this slightly differently of the 9 items you listed here which ones are you truly in control of?

We both think #1+#2 are difficult to vary well
The house controls #3
#4 your having a good night or bad with your not flipping a switch
#7 your opponents control
#8 Your not changing
#9 you can't change

So basically the ball #5 and the surface #6 are then only items you get to choose!!!!

True...valid point. But if the oil pattern isn't really changing (it's #9 of 9)...why would you mess around with #5...based on #9? If #3 (lane conditions) changes...thats a BIG DEAL and you need to make some changes....likely to #5. But you're gonna avoid a progression strategy and try 4-8 balls on different lines on the "off chance" that the least important variable has changed drastically?

And yes, changing balls does require changing lines...and changing lines may require changing releases and speeds. I can't play left of 15 without changing my footwork...no matter which of the 4 balls I choose to throw. I have nothing in my bag that allows a 7-board target change to the left, that will get back to the pocket. I haven't needed one...99.999% of my games are on a THS.

[Amyers]

So, in other words...the lanes can dictate which ball to throw (#5 on list of importance below)...but not the more important aspects of your game? If the lanes are SO chaotic...and there's SO much variation lane to lane that you need to try out numerous balls in you limited practice time...wouldn't trying different releases and footwork be even MORE necessary?

See...you 'think' I'm making your point...but you're really making mine. If the lanes can't be predicted from night to night and pair to pair...then simply trying a few different balls isn't going to get you to that magical "IDEAL" that the lanes are demanding. No?

Each ball should take a slightly different path to the pocket some nights playing straighter (i.e. your ball #1) maybe the more effective path other nights playing a more curved shot may work better (i.e. your #3) weather this is do to the bowler, the lanes, differences in oil is opinion but anyone on here that bowls regularly will tell you that's a fact. No I can't predict before I throw which one it will be but I can tell after throwing a shot or 2 75% of the time or so. Sometimes I'm still wrong. The thing is IMO your really wrong here. Practice isn't for figuring out where the pocket is. It's for figuring out which ball gets their best.



Well, this may be our difference. Like I said before...my bowling balls are set up to do different things. One of my earlier points to Boatman was he was trying to throw an almost identical ball and only vary the surface slightly and was expecting different reactions. That's not a good strategy in my book...nor is it what Rob Johnson described in his video. You want different balls with different specs to do different things. Where you move your feet...and possibly how you surface...should be how you fine tune your progression. Otherwise, you're not fighting the lanes...you're fighting your own ball.

Like I said, I can't throw ball#3 on a fresh THS...it's not designed for that...it wasn't chosen for that. The Thug Life has similar specs but with a surface designed to let me throw it in Game #1 (although it hasn't been an ideal ball #1 because of the specs). I could try and resurface the Scandal Pearl to be identical to the Thug Life...then I could throw it on fresh...but I already have a ball with the same specs for that spot and doing so leaves me no skid/flip ball #3 option. Like I said, I could try the 300A...maybe play the 4-board...hope the boards out there are playable...but yeah...to answer your question...the diffference in ball motion from the Thug Life to the Track 300A...is not minor...it's at LEAST 4 boards with my eyes and probably 9-11 with my feet...moving right...which is the wrong direction to move in modern bowling.

And anyone starting with a Scandal Pearl is wrong? Lol your balls are designed to do different things I'll give you that but they aren't designed to be one off creatures. You might actually have more point if you were bowling on Sports pattern conditions but on a THS the dry is there from ball 1 you don't have to make that dry spot for the ball to bounce off of. I never See Track balls so maybe it is the weakest creature on the planet and isn't a good choice to start off with but I seen plenty of scandal pearls out there it's a popular ball in game 1. Also moving right after the series start as an adjustment is often a mistake. Starting with a weaker ball and moving right is not.



True...valid point. But if the oil pattern isn't really changing (it's #9 of 9)...why would you mess around with #5...based on #9? If #3 (lane conditions) changes...thats a BIG DEAL and you need to make some changes....likely to #5. But you're gonna avoid a progression strategy and try 4-8 balls on different lines on the "off chance" that the least important variable has changed drastically?

And yes, changing balls does require changing lines...and changing lines may require changing releases and speeds. I can't play left of 15 without changing my footwork...no matter which of the 4 balls I choose to throw. I have nothing in my bag that allows a 7-board target change to the left, that will get back to the pocket. I haven't needed one...99.999% of my games are on a THS.

I was using your # as a reference not really as a ranking. I'm not super concerned with any of them. Warm up is for two reasons to get the muscles used to moving and determine which ball path should be the most complementary. For league night it's not really about finding the pocket we know close to where it's at from the week before but figuring out what's the best way to get there.

[mc_runner]

But if the oil pattern isn't really changing (it's #9 of 9)...why would you mess around with #5...based on #9? If #3 (lane conditions) changes...thats a BIG DEAL and you need to make some changes....likely to #5. But you're gonna avoid a progression strategy and try 4-8 balls on different lines on the "off chance" that the least important variable has changed drastically?

And yes, changing balls does require changing lines...and changing lines may require changing releases and speeds. I can't play left of 15 without changing my footwork...no matter which of the 4 balls I choose to throw. I have nothing in my bag that allows a 7-board target change to the left, that will get back to the pocket. I haven't needed one...99.999% of my games are on a THS.

I'm cherry picking this part of the post to respond on, because what I've been trying to say is that if you have a ball who's reaction you trust, and can tell what it's going to do - you can and should be able to tell within a couple of throws what the lane is giving you. You should also know your equipment enough that you have a pretty good idea of what a different ball will do in that situation. So if your ball isn't reading right on your normal line, say you're going really light in warmup or washing out, you should be able to say "hey I need an earlier breakpoint" and ball up. OR, you can move outside to find more dry, with the same ball. Either way isn't running through a simple progression.

For me personally in the above example, I have a Hustle INK that I knocked the polish off of and have finished at 4000 grit (great ball by the way). It's reaction is consistent and readable, I can tell within a shot or 2 if a track shot is going to work, if I need to swing off the dry, if it's better that I ball up to the Code X, etc.

[Amyers]

I'm cherry picking this part of the post to respond on, because what I've been trying to say is that if you have a ball who's reaction you trust, and can tell what it's going to do - you can and should be able to tell within a couple of throws what the lane is giving you. You should also know your equipment enough that you have a pretty good idea of what a different ball will do in that situation. So if your ball isn't reading right on your normal line, say you're going really light in warmup or washing out, you should be able to say "hey I need an earlier breakpoint" and ball up. OR, you can move outside to find more dry, with the same ball. Either way isn't running through a simple progression.

For me personally in the above example, I have a Hustle INK that I knocked the polish off of and have finished at 4000 grit (great ball by the way). It's reaction is consistent and readable, I can tell within a shot or 2 if a track shot is going to work, if I need to swing off the dry, if it's better that I ball up to the Code X, etc.

But if you use the Ink you'd have to move right??? Oh God :rolleyes:

[Aslan]

@mcrunner
I actually think we're in agreement. I know what my first ball does. 97-98% of the time...it does that thing with very minor lateral or vertical adjustments. If it's NOT doing that thing...then yes, I know I should try Ball #2. I'm not stubbornly refusing to start with Ball #2...it's just that I also know what ball #2 does...and why there's no sense to going to it when Ball #1 is working.

My strategy, is based on 4 fundamental truths:
1) A THS, at the same house, doesn't change 'enough' week to week or night to night to require a drastic ball/line/approach/release change. Like I asked in my previous post...how many people play more than 1-2 houses? Anybody? How many play on a non-THS condition every week? 1-5? What % of nights do you start with the same ball? 80%? 82% 95%??
2) I'm not good enough that I can keep my release and speed at a consistency what will truly allow me to see small effects in drilling angles, opponent lane play, or lane topography.
3) Know your arsenal. If you're gonna invest in 4-8 balls...have 4-8 balls set up in a way that they each do something useful...not just give you potential alternatives. An MLB pitching staff is set up with starters, middle relievers, and closers. A golf bag is set up with clubs in a certain order. If you select and know your arsenal if an intelligent and strategic way...you'll have a better idea when/why to change balls.
4) Know and trust your game. If you're not a 2-hander...don't pretend you are. If you're a stroker, you're a stroker. If you make good shots and consistent shots...everything else is secondary. You can have the perfect ball in your hand and play the perfect line...but if you can't throw a good, consistent shot...it really doesn't matter.

[Aslan]

Practice isn't for figuring out where the pocket is. It's for figuring out which ball gets their best.
For ME, practice is warming up and getting a good shot down...THEN...IF I'm warmed up and making good shots...what am I leaving? Assuming I am hitting the pocket...do I need to make a move left or right to start? Is it something that can be corrected with a vertical change in my laydown point?

IF I have time to move inside...and I throw good shots...and it just looks like that ball isn't gonna work that night...then I go to ball #2. But it's very, very rare that happens on a THS...and very, very rare that I get enough time to figure that out in practice. By the time I get a couple warm-up shots in...one on each lane...determine I need to move in...thats one more on each lane...then determine I went from noticeably hitting too far inside to noticeably hitting too light after the adjustment...that's one more shot on each lane. Then you switch balls...get one more shot on each lane...hopefully it's lined up and you don't need to make another adjustment...that's 4 shots on each lane...IF you're throwing a good shot each time.

10 minutes = 600 seconds. Each shot takes roughly 10 seconds...another 10 seconds to shoot the spare. Thats 20 seconds per bowler per shot. Figure 8 bowlers: 600/8 = 75 seconds per bowler = 3.75 shots (total). That's less than half the time...even if I'm throwing a good shot on each attempt...that I would need. Factoring in that some bowlers are gonna strike...maybe drop that down to 15 seconds per shot. Maybe only 6 bowlers are practicing...now you're at 6.67 shots per bowler...still about 2 shots shy of the minimum you'd need. It's not complicated math.


And anyone starting with a Scandal Pearl is wrong?

Not necessarily...it depends how they have their progression set up and what other balls they have in their arsenal.

To Explain: My Ball #1 and Ball #3 (specs)
(1) Thug Life = assymetric core, Pearl cover, 2.493RG, 0.052 diff, 231.8 PS, DV8, Released Date: October 2015, Surface :2000-3000 matte.

(3) Scandal Pearl = assymetric core, Pearl cover, 2.49RG, 0.047 diff, 231.9PS, Hammer, Release Date: October 2016, Surface: 240-360 w/Storm Step 1 or Step 2 compound...maybe with resin polish.

Since the balls have nearly identical specs related to core symmetry, RG, coverstock type, and overall strength (Perfectscale)...only the non-italicized numbers really matter. The remaining logic in terms of order was/is as follows:

The weaker (later hook) Hammer cover and polished (compound) surface of the Scandal Pearl will allow it to get down the transitioned lanes better than the sooner hooking DV8 cover with a sanded (matte) surface. The release dates are working against me...but they are both fairly modern in relation to one another so that shouldn't be a big deal. The higher diff of the Thug Life will ensure an angular and significant flare on fresh. The slightly lower diff of the Scandal Pearl will keep it from reacting too strongly (should there be no carrydown at the breakpoint).

See, since the numbers are so close for these two balls...it's very unlikely that if the Thug Life doesn't play well...the Scandal Pearl will.

And the surfacing is a 'work in progress'. Since the Thug Life is more of a #3 than an ideal #1...I've had to try to use surface to fight the pearl cover and get the ball to move earlier on fresh. I started out at 3000 matte and am now trying 2000 matte. Likewise, I started out with the Scandal Pearl at 500/Step1/Resin Polish...but it was going too long. I then tried 360/Step 2...but it still was going a little long. Now I got it at 240/Step1...but that may be too much. According to the chart, I went from the equivalent of 3500 to 1500 to 800. The goal with the surfacing is to be able to step down without lateral adjustments (left or right). Due to differences in the balls...versus using 3 balls from the same series and manufacturer...it takes some minor surfacing adjustments to smooth out the transition.

[RobLV1]

Funny, but I haven't seen anyone refer to where others on the lane are playing. How can anyone possibly get lined up a figure out a "progression" that will work without considering the other bowlers on the pair?

[Aslan]

Funny, but I haven't seen anyone refer to where others on the lane are playing. How can anyone possibly get lined up a figure out a "progression" that will work without considering the other bowlers on the pair?

That was #7 (of 9) on the list of importance posted further below in the conversation.

As I've mentioned before...and I'm sure it varies from bowler to bowler...but unless there's another guy/gal on my pair throwing 15.5-19mph using the exact same ball with a similar rev rate...there's not much for me to learn.

CASE 1:
Bowler 1: 9-12mph, Columbia WD, 99 average, stands center throws down the middle, flat release.
Bowler 2: 9-12mph, Rotogrip Haywire, 127 average, stands right, throws straight up second arrow, flat release.
Bowler 3: Me: 14.5-19mph, Reax Pearl, 195 average, stand just left of center and throw over 9-13, 250rpms.
Bowler 4: 10-13mph, strong sanded ball, 195 average, stands left and throws over 3rd arrow, thumbless bowler (300+RPMs)

The first two bowlers tell me nothing. If I try to play Bowler #4's line, I'm in the gutter at 40-44ft.

CASE 2:
Bowler 1: ME (See above, change out Thug Life for Reax Pearl)
Bowler 2: 199 average, 2-hander, medium strength ball, stands far left and lofts to the arrows with >400RPMs, 16-18mph.
Bowler 3: 199 average, medium strength ball, loft bowler up the side of the ball, plays the breakpoint area (not the arrows), > 300RPMs, 16-18mph.

I've just never found other bowlers to be a reliable source of information. They usually have more RPMs, less speed, and stronger/newer equipment than what I throw. I realize it can help you find the breakpoint...but I've found the breakpoint doesn't change that much over 3 games on a THS...and most bowlers can't hit the same board at the breakpoint with +/- 1-board of accuracy anyways. The Rule of 31 kinda tells ya where the breakpoint is.

BUT...if you can find someone "close" that sort of has some "clue" what they are doing...they can be a valuable source of information in terms of, "yeah, I think I need to start making a move...things are starting to transition, etc...

[RobLV1]

I think that what you are failing to understand is that regardless of a bowlers rev rate, every single ball they throw down the lane (reactive resin) sucks oil off of the lane. Please permit me to tell you a story about how you can use the information.

On Tuesday mornings I've been bowling in a recreational league with all levels of bowlers. I bowl with a lefty who averages about 175, I average 190, and our anchor man is averaging about 200 in this league. When we started bowling together, the anchor man told be that he wanted to learn to bowl better so that he could make the jump into tournament bowling. He agreed to do as I told, realizing that he would probably average a little bit lower than he does in other leagues where he usually subs. His problem is that he is very good throwing urethane in the track area, but he struggles moving left of the second arrow. I told him to leave his urethane equipment in the bag and force himself to make the horizontal adjustments that are needed.

A couple of weeks ago, we happened to be bowling against a very obnoxious team who take the game way too seriously for a recreational league. They are comprised of two bowlers who play the third arrow and swing the ball out to seven or eight at the far tracer, and one bowler who throws spinning rockets with plastic balls, pointing from the corner and covering an area of about 12" at the head pin. Knowing this, when our anchor man arrived, I told him that rules were relaxed that day, so he could throw his urethane comfort zone. My thought was this; his urethane ball would carry oil down to the two bowlers break point, while the plastic rocket man would carry oil down to give me miss room left. I threw a weak reactive ball, crossing about 13 at the arrows, and staying around ten board at the far tracer. I was staying right of the two hookers at the arrows, but left of them at the break point. The line at the arrows is really meaningless without considering the breakpoint at the end of the pattern.

My plan worked perfectly. We easily won every game, and how we were playing the lanes gave us each a very good look, allowing us to bowl well over our averages while limiting what the other team could do. You simply cannot avoid looking at every bowler on the pair regardless of how dissimilar their styles are to yours.

[ALazySavage]

My perspective/analogy on this (which I will admit everyone may not agree with with) is as follows: at the core, the modern game of bowling is a strategy game based around the concept of transition - playing on an invisible field to discover what is the best, or most reliable, way to attack the pins.

This may be difficult to explain in a message board, but I will try. For sake of simplicity lets say that there are 100 total combinations (a 10x10 grid) that we can create with different bowling balls, releases, speeds, lines, etc. (yes I know the real answer is thousands if not millions). As we develop and learn more skills, purchase more balls, and so forth more of these combinations become available to us - think of this grid with all gray boxes and one white box (this white box represents what shot choices are available to you as a bowler), the one white box is your normal release, line, speed, and ball. Now you purchase a new ball so another white box appears on the grid (normal release, line, speed, but new ball), your available shot choices increase. Now, if you can effectively increase ball speed 2 more boxes will light up (2 balls, 2 speed, 1 release, 1 line). As you learn new skills, get new equipment, and learn to move these combinations will exponentially increase. Our goal/challenge as bowlers is to now take all of these combinations of skills and equipment to determine which combination of speed, line, ball, release, etc. matches us the best with what the lanes are telling us to do.

Using the above breakout, lets say the bowler can accomplish 50 of the 100 combinations. Ideally, we are hoping that one of the combinations are close enough to what the lanes are requiring that we will be able to perform well (the ideal combination of speed, ball, release, and line may not be in our skill set, that is why we practice new things). Now we get to the lanes for warm up and our goal is to determine what that "perfect" box is (or something close to it). We throw our first ball (or third for some of us) of warm up and this is where bowling turns into a game similar to the board game "Guess Who"; just like "Guess Who" we are trying to determine which character (or box) our opponent (the lanes) has. For those who have played "Guess Who" we know our first question is not specific like "Is your person Tommy?" (in bowling this would be similar to throwing something extremely strong up 1-2 board, it may work but unlikely) but it is more like "Is your character a girl?" (in bowling, this is throwing a benchmark ball up the track). The first question we may eliminate 1 of our 50 available boxes from the equation if it doesn't work but the second question may give us the answer that the ball skid way past the breakpoint, this would eliminate adjustments such as more ball speed, later reacting equipment, and most likely any moves left...potentially getting rid of 23 of our 50 boxes. Through warm up (and even early in the first game) we are trying to eliminate as many boxes as possible to find the best or closest combination available to us. The advanced part of this is the better/more characteristics we are able to identify (other bowlers, oil pattern, lane topography, lane surface, etc.) the more boxes we can potentially eliminate when trying to determine the best course of action. As we compete through the night some good boxes/combinations may become bad choices and some bad choices may become good choices - that is the beauty of bowling (and the concept of transition).

With this analogy, what we also need to recognize that while we are all playing on the "same" lane each individual is playing with their own customized board. I may have 60% of the board available to me (exaggerated for the example), but when my wife bowls (who has one ball, one speed, can move laterally a little bit, and 2 releases) she may only have 4% of the board available. Our goals and expectations should be different at this point, I am hoping to string strikes while she is hoping to get good count on her first ball.

[Aslan]

I see what Rob is saying. My only 'worry'...is I've seen bowlers try to 'outsmart' opponents by staying inside of them...and it was disasterous.

Like ALS's post...if you only have a handful of boxes "light up"...you probably should play those speeds/areas/etc....not try to outsmart your opponent. Because, it really could put you at a disadvantage. You may be able to average 195 in the track...moving inside or outside and suddenly you're in the 175 range...'hoping' that you can mess with your opponent enough that they struggle even more.

@ALS...your example makes sense, but like I said earlier...there 189 possible combinations. If you limit yourself to one release, one speed, one approach, one area of the lane...then it's just a matter of what ball to pick. And, you can probably start with the same ball 95% of the time (THS, same center). As soon as you start moving around the approach to play different lines...things go from 4 options to 8 options to 12 options. And you have LIMITED TIME. Even if every single one of your 'boxes' is lit up...you don't have the 2-hour and 6 minute warm-up you'd need to try them all.

So...has the dead horse been severely beaten yet??

[J Anderson]

I see what Rob is saying. My only 'worry'...is I've seen bowlers try to 'outsmart' opponents by staying inside of them...and it was disasterous.

Like ALS's post...if you only have a handful of boxes "light up"...you probably should play those speeds/areas/etc....not try to outsmart your opponent. Because, it really could put you at a disadvantage. You may be able to average 195 in the track...moving inside or outside and suddenly you're in the 175 range...'hoping' that you can mess with your opponent enough that they struggle even more.

@ALS...your example makes sense, but like I said earlier...there 189 possible combinations. If you limit yourself to one release, one speed, one approach, one area of the lane...then it's just a matter of what ball to pick. And, you can probably start with the same ball 95% of the time (THS, same center). As soon as you start moving around the approach to play different lines...things go from 4 options to 8 options to 12 options. And you have LIMITED TIME. Even if every single one of your 'boxes' is lit up...you don't have the 2-hour and 6 minute warm-up you'd need to try them all.

So...has the dead horse been severely beaten yet??

This sort of reminded me of Ted Williams book, The Science of Hitting. He had graphs of different batters’ strike zones with different batting averages for each position a ball could cross the plate. His theory was to improve your overall average you stopped swinging at balls that you wouldn’t be likely to hit even if they might be strikes and waited for a pitch that you were two or three times more likely to get a base hit from.

With bowling, if the area where you get your best carry transitions, or just plain isn’t there to start, you have to make the right adjustment, whether it’s a move, a ball change, or a technique change. If you don’t, that area where you’re usually a 195 bowler becomes an area where you’re lucky to break 175.

[RobLV1]

With this analogy, what we also need to recognize that while we are all playing on the "same" lane each individual is playing with their own customized board. I may have 60% of the board available to me (exaggerated for the example), but when my wife bowls (who has one ball, one speed, can move laterally a little bit, and 2 releases) she may only have 4% of the board available. Our goals and expectations should be different at this point, I am hoping to string strikes while she is hoping to get good count on her first ball.

This is a very important point, and the reason that I am so adamant about the need to find the line that is working for you each time you bowl. Since my back and neck began falling apart, I can only generate about 10 mph in ball speed. With so little speed, I am limited to using very non-aggressive equipment and have no choice but to use everything the lanes are giving me on every outing. While I can only average 190, I can occasionally shoot some very good scores when I am successful finding my own path to the pocket. Unfortunately, there are also some days where my options are so severely limited that I can bowl very well and just depend on my spare shooting for any scoring that I can do. This is the reason that it drives me absolutely nuts when bowlers who have the physical ability to bowl insist on playing their "usual" line.

[Amyers]

I think we've delved into other topics beyond practice and what to try here. I am not suggesting changing your mechanics, trying to out smart your opponents, or do things your not comfortable with here. My simple point was you should be comfortable enough with your arsenal to start with any ball in your bag under average circumstances. You should know if you throw Ball B down the line I can pick up Ball A or Ball C make a small adjustment and strike on a regular basis.

The simple idea that only certain balls are useful only if certain requites are met is wrong headed in most instances. If your good enough to own an arsenal you should be good enough to move a few boards right or left to try those balls out. If your not you probably shouldn't own multiple balls.

[boatman37]

Had the Kingpin at 2000 last time out and it was almost identical to the Conspiracy at 2000 so yesterday took the Kingpin to 3000 on the spinner. Didn't bowl last week since we alternate 3 bowlers on a 2 man team. Will see how it goes tonight but lanes seem to be drier the past 4 or 5 weeks.

[boatman37]

Well going to 3000 didn't make much difference. It was maybe 1/2 board difference compared to the Conspiracy. Tonight was tough. Had to be perfectly in the pocket or no strikes. 4 game series and only had 8 strikes on the night. Lanes were pretty wet tonight.

[ALazySavage]

Boatman, I personally would be going with a much wider range in regards to the surface - something like 1000 and 4000 so that you can see one read much earlier than the other (I'm not going to read all of the previous posts, but I don't know if we really discussed the topic of ball shape/motion rather than range of hook). My personal goal when building and prepping my arsenal is not necessarily to create a range of how much a ball changes motion left to right, but rather front to back, and then tweaking my physical game to match up best to the lanes and fill in the gaps between each ball.

For example, I have three balls that I believe have the potential to be my starting ball when bowling on the Del Ballard sport pattern tonight (Hammer Black Widow Urethane @500, Roto Grip Hyper Cell @1000 [asymmetric], Roto Grip Idol @2000 [symmetric]). Without getting into too much detail, how they are drilled and prepped each ball has a very distinct shape from one another (and from the other two balls that I could step down to). Say after throwing a few shots in practice I determine that the Hyper Cell gives me the best look to start, bowl with it for a game and then notice transition (the ball rolling too early), but I like the overall shape of the ball - I have a few options.

(a) I could do something that will help my ball get down the lane physically: increase ball speed, decrease revs, change my rotation/tilt, move my feet/mark, etc. (yes, there are other options as well).
(b) I could make a ball change. This alone will work if my ball characteristics are very similar so that the change is minor, but the problem becomes that I am only done with one game and I've already had to transition balls (very much a problem with smaller arsenals). This is why I advocate the larger range of motions (and in this thread it is done with ball surface since that is the only information we have), because if they are close I have really limited my options when a subtle physical game change to the first ball can create the same change.

[ALazySavage]

"@ALS...your example makes sense, but like I said earlier...there 189 possible combinations. If you limit yourself to one release, one speed, one approach, one area of the lane...then it's just a matter of what ball to pick. And, you can probably start with the same ball 95% of the time (THS, same center). As soon as you start moving around the approach to play different lines...things go from 4 options to 8 options to 12 options. And you have LIMITED TIME. Even if every single one of your 'boxes' is lit up...you don't have the 2-hour and 6 minute warm-up you'd need to try them all."

Aslan, have you ever played or heard of the concept of Guess Who? To make the math easy - 5 balls (Benchmark, longer/sharper, longer/smoother, earlier/sharper, earlier/smoother) x 3 speeds (faster, normal, smoother) x 3 releases (aggressive, normal, soft) x 3 lines (inside, track, outside) x 3 rotations (low, normal, high)… or 405 combinations.

First shot, I throw my benchmark ball up the track with normal speed, release, rotation - the ball reacts early and goes through the face. Well, I'm going to make an adjustment that helps the ball react later down the lane - what I'm not going to do is something that helps the ball roll earlier down the lane. Thus I have eliminated both earlier balls (3 remaining), my slower speed (2 remaining), my aggressive release (2 remaining), its a house shot so the outside line (2 remaining), and the lower rotation (2 remaining)… down to 48 combinations.

Second Shot, I decided to make a ball change so I go with my longer/smoother ball - I really like the shape of the ball, but it lagged a little bit on the backends. I have the ball I want in my hand (1 remaining) and I have found my line (1 remaining) - I need to make a small change that helps the ball go longer down the lane saving some energy at the breakpoint, I can change my speed (2 remaining), alter my release (2 remaining), or adjust my rotation (2 remaining)...down to 8 combinations.

Third Shot, same ball and same line...I don't really like speed adjustments (1 remaining - normal), I soften my release so that it doesn't read so early (1 remaining - softer), and I still have the two rotations (normal, higher)...down to 2 combinations. Ball hit pretty well, but I want just a little more backend reaction to help tap out the corner pin.


Fourth Shot: Later/Smooth ball, softer release, normal speed, up the track, with a higher rotation to promote a later reaction. Ball hits well and I get a pretty good look - it may not be the best of my 405 combinations, but it is pretty good so I will stick with it and adjust as needed. Assuming a normal house shot that typically forces the ball later or the line inside I have the following adjustments - the longer/sharper reacting ball, the move left to the inside, I can increase my speed...these will all allow me to make the typical house shot adjustments, this did not take the 2 hours of practice time and I think four shots is a fair assumption for practice.

Now before you jump on me and say that I'm assuming the first shot is close, earlier we were complaining that this was a house shot and that everyone should have a pretty good idea what was going to happen walking in the door.