Sym vs Asym and when to use which?

[boatman37]

So been thinking about a new ball and I don't have any symmetrical balls except the Rhino, which is a low hooking ball anyway. Already have a Black Widow Gold, Kingpin, and Conspiracy. So when would you use a symmetric over asymmetric or vice-versa? I know what the physical difference is but wondering what conditions would favor one over the other?
Been considering a Squatch pearl or solid but not sure it would be worth it.

[RobLV1]

I really have to question your statement that the Rhino is a low-hooking ball. Once you are in the realm of reactive resin balls with cores, one ball does not hook more than another, it just hooks earlier or later. Noting that you like to play outside, and your scores sheets indicate that you have some troubles with spares that probably indicate inconsistencies in your release, I really don't think that using asymmetrical balls is helping your cause. House shot bowlers who like to live in the track area get more harm than help from asymmetrical balls. Take a look at the Storm Green IQ Pearl. I think that it would be a good ball for you.

[boatman37]

That's why I asked the question. Been hearing how symmetrical balls are more 'forgiving' and wondering if it might help me.

As for the Rhino and low hook, the ball might move 4 boards max where my BWG probably moves about 10-15 boards. Maybe I'm not using the right terminology but the Rhino goes almost straight. I do see what you are saying with the BWG vs the Conspiracy. Both move a similar amount but the Conspiracy reads much earlier and is a smoother arc. Might be due to the surface as the Conspiracy is 2000 and the BWG is 3000 and pearl.

[boatman37]

Hate to keep throwing money at new balls but really thinking about the Squatch pearl. Based on Rob's comments about the symetric ball being a little more forgiving and the fact that my Conspiracy and BWG probably each have over 100 games on them (or really close to it) just thinking of trying something a little different. Lately the BWG has been my favorite ball even though it is my oldest and probably most used. It has been working well when the Conspiracy and Kingpin just haven't. I have it finished at 3000 matte on the spinner (wet). I did have it at 4000 matte by hand before that and liked that too. I did that on a whim at right before warm-ups one night and it worked well. The Conspiracy is at 2000 wet on the spinner. I'm going to put the Kingpin at 1000 (at 500 now and way too aggressive).

So looking for something very similar to the BWG but in a symetric.

Thoughts? Or would the Squatch solid be better? Thinking pearl cause I really like the shape of the BWG.

[RobLV1]

Did it occur to you that the BWG has been your favorite BECAUSE it is your oldest and most used? Get it out of your head that stronger is better. I know of a very well-known senior bowler who NEVER touches the surface of his bowling balls and never even cleans them. What he does clean is the clocks of his competitors!

[Aslan]

There is no right or wrong answer to this question. Much of it is preference related.

'Generally', symmetric core balls are more popular for a couple reasons:

1) They tend to be more forgiving when you have a release that isn't consistent.

2) They don't over-react for older, slower speed bowlers that struggle to stay right (for RHers) of the headpin.

3) High rev bowlers can get the angularity without needing to move to an assymetric.

The advantage of assymetric is they can usually help provide a more angular line to the pocket for bowlers that are higher speed and lower rev.

Just remember, core symmetry is only one of about 9 variables.

[RobLV1]

Aslan: What are the 9 variables?

As you are one of this bowlers who is higher speed and lower rev, have assyms helped?
]

[Aslan]

Aslan: What are the 9 variables?
- Manufacturer
- Coverstock
- Surface
- RG
- differential
- drill layout
- speed
- axis rotation
- axis tilt
- core symmetry

So yeah, 9 other variables.


As you are one of this bowlers who is higher speed and lower rev, have assyms helped?
]

Yes...I am higher speed and lower revs. About 16.5-19.5 at the pins...but I doubt I'm cracking 300rpms...probably 240-275 range.

But no, I've had more luck with symmetric cores than asymmetric cores. I did really well with the Reax Pearl (assymetric) but also did really well with the Scandal Pearl, Melee Jab, and Loaded Revolver...all of which are symmetric cores. I 'think' it goes back to the release consistency. When I throw assymetric "well"....they maximize my entry angle and carry. But I don't have a consistent release/speed...so symmetric cores 'seem' to be a bit more forgiving.

[boatman37]

Rob, I am definitely seeing that stronger is not always better. In my previous bowling life my last ball was a Cobalt Rhino. My ball was pretty straight in comparison to some others so when I came back to bowling I told the PSO I wanted/needed the strongest ball he had. This was because I thought since my natural release hooked very little that I needed a stronger ball. This was part of my misconception about balls. He sold me the BWG as he said it should be a very good ball for me on a THS.

Later I bought a spinner and pads and quickly hit everything with a low grit pad to get more hook. Realized that isn't the way it works...lol. So yeah, when I came back I was under the impression that I 'needed' a strong ball to get the hook my release didn't generate. Now I see the difference between what looks pretty and what works.

The BWG did not work well for me at first. Timeline: bought the BWG Feb 6 2018. Used it solely until I bought the Kingpin July 17th. Mainly used the Kingpin but occasionally used the BWG. Once I got the Conspiracy January 2019 the BWG stayed in the bag. Up until then didn't have much success with it. When the summer league started this year I struggled with the Kingpin and Conspiracy so got the BWG out and hit it with a 4000 by hand before warm-ups and it was perfect. Can't say for sure whether it was the new surface I put on it that made it start working for me or if it just happened to be the right conditions. But now none are working. I know most of that is user error and not ball related. But that brings me to the symmetrical question. If consistency is my issue then maybe I should be using a symmetric ball?

Ballpark numbers here. Bowled 278 games since I came back. Maybe 75 were the Kingpin and the rest the Conspiracy and BWG so probably about 100 each. I do clean them all after every night and have sanded them each several times.

[Amyers]

A few things to consider here.

#1 All balls are asymmetrical once they are drilled I'm really not sure that the real difference here has more to do with core shape than anything.
#2 We don't get to see you bowl. I have no doubt that their is a class of bowler and a higher speed lefty with lower revs fits the bill that may be helped by an asymmetrical ball maybe they need the extra turn it can provide but their are many who just think they need more also. I've seen a few who think they can shoot spares with a regular ball too but most who make the change are better off.
#3 We wish we knew everything without buying too and that we were making the right decision but we don't even for our own game and decision we think were correct may have fit our needs at the time but not now.

My main point here is we can give ideas sometimes but we can't provided the right decision. We have beliefs that are permeated by our own experiences but they may be different than yours. If you can afford it having a good mix of equipment is a good investment in a sport that is cheap to compete in compared to most. A even running symmetrical ball is an obvious hole in the lineup here as long as it's not taking away from something else buy one and get it over with lol. Rob's green iq pearl wouldn't be a bad idea, I haven't seen much of the Radical sasquatch, I like the Hammer Web also not the tour just the regular one too. Practicing some with that Rhino and learning to match your speed and rev rate so that it will move for you might be an excellent exercise also but I might consider getting a spare ball first if you believe it will hook it's amazing how much it will start too.

[MajorPhoenix]

I mean, I went hard into Asymm for a while to get more drastic reaction. However, the quote about Symm being more forgiving rings true to me personally. I like asymms when the oil is heavy personally. I then move down to symms when control is needed. BUt again, it's really on a personal level

[boatman37]

After last night (3 bad weeks in a row now) I'm up for either trying a new ball or throwing in the towel and being a 170 bowler

[RobLV1]

After last night (3 bad weeks in a row now) I'm up for either trying a new ball or throwing in the towel and being a 170 bowler

Or, instead of spending another $200 trying to buy a game, you might try finding a coach and spending half that amount for some help. Just sayin'!

[boatman37]

I did a search and all coaches near me are Level 1 or Bronze. There is one 33 miles from me that is a Silver level. IIRC Bronze and Level 1 are just to teach the basics of bowling? I searched a 50 mile radius and that 1 Silver is the only one not Bronze or Level 1.

On a separate note, any disadvantage to standing more upright on release? I tried it a couple of times only because my knee was sore and didn't notice anything negative about it but just out of habit went back to bending the knee. Just wondered if this is something I should try to get used to? Any reason why one way is better than the other?

[J Anderson]

I did a search and all coaches near me are Level 1 or Bronze. There is one 33 miles from me that is a Silver level. IIRC Bronze and Level 1 are just to teach the basics of bowling? I searched a 50 mile radius and that 1 Silver is the only one not Bronze or Level 1.

On a separate note, any disadvantage to standing more upright on release? I tried it a couple of times only because my knee was sore and didn't notice anything negative about it but just out of habit went back to bending the knee. Just wondered if this is something I should try to get used to? Any reason why one way is better than the other?

Level 1 coaches know how to teach the game to beginners. Many of them may be able to help more advanced players but they have not bothered to become certified at a higher level.

Bronze coaches are a significant step up from level one. Considering that a large part of your problems come from poor spare shooting, I think a bronze coach would be very helpful to you.

Generally speaking, not bending the knee causes the ball to be released higher from the lane surface. This results in either the ball striking the lane at too steep an angle, causing the ball to lose energy, or increases the loft distance which makes the ball read the lane later.

[boatman37]

thanks! lately my strike shooting has been worse than my spare shooting...lol. but yeah spares should not be missed and fixing that would have a huge impact on my game. There were a few bronze level coaches on the list in my area. might ask around Tuesday to see if anyone is familiar with any of them or recommends any certain one. there aren't many 'bigger' centers near me other than ours (40 lanes). there are a few smaller ones but the closest larger one is probably 30 miles away so most serious bowlers around here are at our center so should be in the know. i will ask the PSO also.

[Aslan]

Level 1 coaches know how to teach the game to beginners. Many of them may be able to help more advanced players but they have not bothered to become certified at a higher level.

Bronze coaches are a significant step up from level one. Considering that a large part of your problems come from poor spare shooting, I think a bronze coach would be very helpful to you.


The Levels/Certifications are a bit tricky with bowling.

Here's my general breakdown...from someone that has had several coaches at various levels (worst to best*):

9) High Average Bowler in your League- Just because a guy averages 200+, doesn't mean they know anything. But...to be fair...they DO know how to score highter than you...so it's an option...and a cheap (usually free) one.

8) Pro Shop Owner/Operator (non-Level 1 and non-Certified)- Being an owner of a pro shop only requires the ability to drill bowling balls and use a cash register...don't assume they are professionals. But...some have been around bowling a LONG time and are up on the new technology...they just don't all feel like getting a Level 1 or Bronze certification because they don't really feel like "coaching".

7) Level 1 Coach- Usually a pro shop owner or someone interested in youth coaching will get this. I took the class for it. It's very basic.

6) Bronze Level Coach- Not much more than the Level 1 coach, but this is generally the level where coaches will start to be worth the money.

5) Bronze Level Coach/PBA Card Holder/PBA Regional Competitor/Ball Company Staffers- These guys/gals not only have the academic background...but are competing and learning that way as well. It doesn't necessarily mean they are better technologically than a Bronze Level Pro shop guy...but they might be better at the physical stuff. The Ball Company staffers are usually gonna be good at both the technology AND physical...but usually aren't very current on equipment from other manufacturers.

4) PBA50 Tour Member- These guys may not be current on the newest techniques, ball technologies, or bowling periodicals...but they've been doing it a LONG time and are still competing at the highest level. And, the added bonus is they usually have the best stories....sitting back and hearing about the tour in the 70s and 80s is almost worth the lesson cost.

3) USBC Silver Level Coach (that don't coach PBA players)- Getting the Silver certification isn't easy...so these folks usually know their business. You can probably find at least one within 45 minutes drive. They may or may not be up on the technology, but they likely will be really strong on the physical fundamentals.

2) PWBA or PBA Tour Pro- They aren't as cheap and the stories aren't as good...but they usually have a better grasp of the technology than the PBA50 guys. Just remember, great ATHLETES aren't necessarily great TEACHERS.

1) Gold Level USBC, Team USA Coaches, Silver Level USBC Coach (that teaches PBA students)- These folks are generally teachers of the pros...so if they can teach the pros...they can certainly teach you. They won't be cheap...and you may not have one anywhere within a 3-hour drive. Generally you're looking at something like Camp Bakkes with Mark Baker or the ITRC center in San Antonio....both of which are VERY expensive.

* Realize "worst to best" isn't cut in stone...it depends on the coach and what your needs are...this is just a general guide based on what I've found.

If I were you, I'd look at the recent PBA regionals that occurred near you and it usually lists where their hometown is. If guys are good enough to be bowling in those regionals...they might at least 'know' of a good coach in your area. Try 2-3 different coaches and see who fits your needs the best. You also might have a couple coaches...one for year round and one (PBA pro) that you only visit when they aren't on the tour.

[RobLV1]

I'd like to expand on a point that Aslan made, "Great ATHLETES aren't necessarily great TEACHERS." High average bowlers teach others to bowl the way that they do for the simple reason that it works for them. Coaches are trained to teach bowlers to bowl in a way that will be the most successful for them. I bowl with a senior bowler whose timing is so messed up that he couldn't hit the side of a barn, much less a one inch target at the arrows. He takes eight or nine steps because, he claims that a very well known PBA50 pro advised him to!

The other issue that was not mentioned is that USBC Coaches (Silver and Gold) are trained to recognize the learning style of their athletes. There are three distinct kinds of learners; auditory, visual, and kinesthetic. How you teach each type of learner is totally different. If you try to tell a visual learner what to do, he will not have any clue as to what you are talking about. Conversely, if you show an auditory learner video of himself bowling, he'll get absolutely nothing from it.

Long story short, if you have to drive 30 miles to see a Silver Level Coach, just pretend that you grew up in L.A. and 30 miles is nothing!

[boatman37]

I agree 100% with the statement that just because somebody is good at something doesn't mean they can teach another. Or that what they teach will work. We have a couple of 215+ bowlers that have a very unique style that I would feel very awkward trying to duplicate. I could never bowl like my PSO. Shouldn't say never but he is a very high rev bowler that can go completely cross alley. I try that and it will be in the gutter 1/2 way down the lane...lol. I just don't have the same style he does. He averages about 225-230. Works for him though. I'm a visual learner. Show me then watch me do it until I get it right.

So should have the Squatch pearl ready for Tuesday night. Might order a spare ball soon too. Will see how Tuesday night goes then gonna try to go out Friday for some spare practice and 1 step drills. If I'm still struggling then might just order the ball while I'm there and have it for the following Tuesday night. Son is getting married next month so gotta watch the spending though. Might be a little while before I get the spare ball or coaching.