An Unfortunate Situation

[RobLV1]

Whenever people talk about the heat in Vegas, there's always a comment that "at least it's a dry heat." The problem is that, in Vegas, it's usually a dry heat. When there is any significant humidity, we are not equipped to handle it. This morning I bowled in a trios league. The humidity is 56% today which probably sounds very low to most of you, but in a bowling center that's located in a casino that has no way to control humidity, it results in horrendously sticky approaches and a very, very difficult wet/dry lane reaction.

Today, half way through the first game, one of the bowlers on the opposing team quit because he could not figure out how to compensate for the sticky approaches. In this league, an absent bowler gets 100% of his average on his first missed series. As a result, the team we were bowling won all three games based solely on the fact that one of their bowlers had quit. In the second game, their absent bowler had the highest score on the pair! I know this just sounds like sour grapes, but it seemed to me and my teammates that the condition was the same for everyone, and that everyone should have tried to figure out how to bowl the best way that they could.

What do you all think?

[J Anderson]

I have obviously led a very sheltered life since three weeks ago was the first time I ever heard of a league using 100% of average as the blind score. I had thought this was just an odd fluke applying to only one unsanctioned senior league. Now I see that this idiotic rule exists in at least one other league.

I basically agree that as long as you are all bowling on the same conditions, the game is fair and you should just try to do your best. An argument could be made that the sticky approach gave planters an advantage over sliders but if the blind score was high on the pair that would seem to be a moot point.

It seems to me that leagues should have rules that encourage bowlers to bowl, or rather discourage them from missing league and having teams bowl without a complete lineup. In the sport league that I bowl in, if you are not there and do not get a sub, you can not win any points. Your opponent has to beat a blind score of 172 to earn points but you get nothing if they fail to beat it. Most of the other leagues that I’m familiar with use a blind that’s average less 10 pins to penalize bowlers or teams that fail to get a sub. The first league I bowled in used 90% of the average as the blind score which really penalized the higher average bowlers for not showing up.

[RobLV1]

I really don't think that the 100% of average, first-time absent is an issue. I agree with it as it discourages bowlers who are sick from coming and infecting everyone else on the lane. Today, if the average had been 90% instead of 100%, it wouldn't have made a bit of difference. The issue to me was the fact that a whiney league bowler who chose to quit rather than challenge the same difficult situation as everyone else could make the difference between his team winning seven points and, most probably losing seven points.

[Aslan]

I agree with Rob in theory. And, it's why I always vote to punish absent voters by using their average minus 10 pins.

However, it sounds like...in our post-Covid world...we're seeing one of the many by-products. Some leagues may choose to reward absent bowlers rather than risk a bowler feeling "obligated" to "bowl sick" and thus create some deadly plague or super-spreader event on the lanes.

At the end of the day, once the hysteria dies down, I think leagues will go back to the "old days" and go back to punishing absentee bowlers with a minus 10 or something along those lines. Why? Because nobody likes to lose to someone who didn't bother to even show up...or who showed up and left.

I don't understand the humidity issue in Vegas. Seems like with the air conditioning in the center...it should more than handle the 56% humidity. But, I guess with the heat so high...maybe its all the air conditioning can do to just keep the temperature down.

I get it. Sticky approaches are tough. And, they can be dangerous. Bowlers can blow out a knee or take a major fall due to sticky approaches. Very few bowlers bring an arsenal of interchangeable soles and heels with them. Even those that do (like me), are not that stable when you start getting to the extremes of those soles and heels. I know I've never been able to use the Ebonite elastic sock that slips over your shoe. I've tried it many times...and it's just too slippery. I'd rather bowl in socks (if the center allows it). But, like Rob said...if everyone has to deal with it...then everyone should suck it up and bowl. IMO.

[bowl1820]

Today, half way through the first game, one of the bowlers on the opposing team quit because he could not figure out how to compensate for the sticky approaches. In this league, an absent bowler gets 100% of his average on his first missed series. As a result, the team we were bowling won all three games based solely on the fact that one of their bowlers had quit. In the second game, their absent bowler had the highest score on the pair! I know this just sounds like sour grapes, but it seemed to me and my teammates that the condition was the same for everyone, and that everyone should have tried to figure out how to bowl the best way that they could.

What do you all think?

The player quit in the middle of the first game? Did they they follow USBC rules then?

(Rule 108 – Failure to Complete Game: 108b. Without Cause
When a player does not complete a game for reasons other than disability, injury or emergency, the player’s team shall count zero for each remaining frame in the game.

Commonly Asked Question – Rule 108b.
108b/1 After missing a spare in the fifth frame of the second game, the player gets upset and stops bowling. How do you score the bowler’s second and third game?
The team is credited with the actual score for the first five frames bowled and zero for each remaining frames in the second game. For the third game, the team uses the player's absentee score. In calculating the bowler’s average, only the first game is included in the bowler’s average record.)

The lanes being sticky is not considered sufficient cause for quitting in the middle of the game according to the rules. In this case the players score then should have been zero for the remaining frames of the first game. Which could have caused them to lose that game and maybe wood for the series.

[RobLV1]

Thanks, Al.

[boatman37]

That sucks. Our league is -30 off average for absent bowler. That is a big hit

[Ryster]

Sounds like everyone bowled under average, and it was a combination of getting beat by the rules and not applying the correct scoring for a "failure to complete game" situation.

Everyone has different comfort levels when it comes to approaches. If the bowler that stopped was uncomfortable with their footing, or concerned they would injure a knee or hip [or worse, fall] they are perfectly within their rights to bow out and go home. Of course, whatever the appropriate scoring rules are for this should be followed. If it is deemed "failure to complete a game without cause", then they get a zero for remaining frames. If they claim that they are stopping due to injury, then they get their score up to that point and then 1/10th of their average for each of the remaining frames of that game (Rule 108a). Then they get whatever the league rules state for the remaining games they will not be bowling that session.

If the league rules state that a bowler gets to use 100% of their average on their first missed series, there is nothing that can really be complained about. At the next league meeting, float a motion to remove that rule from the by-laws and change it to either 90%, 10 pins off, or whatever you can get through the voting.

In one of my leagues, you have to earn individual points when matched up to a vacancy by bowling within 10 pins of your average. If you average 225, you need to bowl 215 or better to win your point. However, if a bowler is absent and takes a blind it is 20 pins off that bowler's average per game. The person bowling against the blind bowler simply needs to beat the blind bowler's average after the 20 pins come off. That 20 pin penalty is to discourage people from not bowling or not finding an eligible substitute.

At this point, you should reach out to the league secretary and get that first game score reviewed and corrected and see if it changes the outcome. If the secretary balks at this, send it up to the local association for review.

[RobLV1]

It seems that you all missed my point. I don't care about losing the points. I don't care that he broke the rules. I don't care about the absentee percentage. My question is this: Do you think that a bowler should quit because conditions are difficult or uncomfortable, or do you think that finding a way to overcome adversity that affects all the bowlers on the pair the same is a true test of a bowlers zeal for the game?

[boomer]

No - a bowler should not quit because they cannot handle the condition. Suck it up like everyone else and bowl.

Injury? Legitimate emergency? Sure.

We've had people "get hurt" at the end of their second game so they could take their absent score for their third - the mockery and derision from much of the league stopped that. If you're injured, be injured (at least FAKE it) - made it hard when someone like me, just prior to my knee replacement, actually GOT injured and then got the side-eye. HATED that. But people knew - I bowl until my leg is hanging by a tendon . . . those guys? Nah - mock them at will.

[Ryster]

It seems that you all missed my point. I don't care about losing the points. I don't care that he broke the rules. I don't care about the absentee percentage. My question is this: Do you think that a bowler should quit because conditions are difficult or uncomfortable, or do you think that finding a way to overcome adversity that affects all the bowlers on the pair the same is a true test of a bowlers zeal for the game?

Everyone has a different threshold for "adversity". Most of us on this site would push through and finish out the session. Others, like the bowler you faced, don't want to deal with it and quit. That is his right. There may be past experiences or extenuating circumstances that prompted his decision. What may seem like silly behavior to us could have some sort of relevance to him.

There are times where I wish other bowlers would just leave when they are having a bad night, instead of staying and making life miserable for the bowling center employees and other bowlers around them. Having to hear people complain about various things over and over for 2.5 hours can be brutal.

[boatman37]

So big question...how was he bowling before he quit? Was the dry approach an excuse to get away from a rough night? If so that is even worse then quitting because you aren't comfortable and don't like it. If he was bowling decent and still quit then maybe he was concerned about injury? Not defending his actions cause I would never quit unless I physically couldn't bowl anymore...but I'm not a quitter

[Aslan]

It seems that you all missed my point. I don't care about losing the points. I don't care that he broke the rules. I don't care about the absentee percentage. My question is this: Do you think that a bowler should quit because conditions are difficult or uncomfortable, or do you think that finding a way to overcome adversity that affects all the bowlers on the pair the same is a true test of a bowlers zeal for the game?

I think it depends on the "adversity".

If the humidity is a little high or a person is having a bad night or the scoring system goes down and people have to keep score by hand...or maybe the machine put down a USBC pattern instead of a house pattern...I mean, in that case...yeah...bowl through it...everybody is bowling on the same thing; same scenario, same advantage/disadvantage (essentially).

HOWEVER...

1. If there's a safety issue...I mean, if the place is on fire or the lights go out or there's carbon monoxide alarms going off. Or even if the approaches are SO sticky that people are risking their knees to bowl...then I think that is different. I've seen bowlers quit and go home when a center couldn't clean approaches due to a spill or something...and older bowlers simply wouldn't risk their knees to bowl.

2. A league should have minimum expectations regarding lane conditions. If the lanes haven't been oiled...at all...and your equipment is hooking into the gutter midway down the lane...thats a problem. I mean, I suppose those bowlers with spare balls could throw their spare balls at the pocket and hope for the best...but thats not acceptable conditions for league night. Changing a pattern is one thing...but simply going out there with a machine that squirts random puddles of oil or fails to clean parts of the lane or creates strange inconsistent situations...thats going to make the night a toss-up. There aren't "adjustments" that can be made...it's just a matter of who has a spare ball and who doesn't.

I've bowled at centers where both of the above situations, in one form or another, have occurred. I've fallen on the lanes due to sticky approaches and watched an older bowler get carried out of a center once after he blew out his knee. You can't bowl on unsafe conditions. And, I've bowled at a center that was having "oil machine issues" and their machine oiled inconsistently and broke down midway through oiling. In practice, everyone throwing a reactive ball watched their ball hook into the gutter about 30-40 ft. The center ended up putting us on a far pair that had been oiled that wasn't being used or else both teams were going to leave.

I'm not a proponent of "easy conditions". If it were up to me, we'd do away with the THS altogether for anything but beginner leagues. I've bowled on sport conditions and in challenge leagues. It's not about "easy" and trying to make the game easy for me to score. I actually prefer centers where I score less...I hate having an inflated average if I enter a handicap tournament and I think it's "false confidence". But there's a difference between "easy" and "consistent". Lanes have to be level, they have to be a certain length, a certain width...pins have to be a certain weight and height...and yes, an oil pattern needs to be applied. Thats just how the game has developed.

[RobLV1]

So big question...how was he bowling before he quit? Was the dry approach an excuse to get away from a rough night? If so that is even worse then quitting because you aren't comfortable and don't like it. If he was bowling decent and still quit then maybe he was concerned about injury? Not defending his actions cause I would never quit unless I physically couldn't bowl anymore...but I'm not a quitter

His score was in the 70's in the sixth frame (he is a 190+ average bowler). He blamed his score on his inability to slide. What really caused his poor score was the fact that he let the approaches get in his head. He justified quitting by saying he didn't want to hurt himself.

[boatman37]

His score was in the 70's in the sixth frame (he is a 190+ average bowler). He blamed his score on his inability to slide. What really caused his poor score was the fact that he let the approaches get in his head. He justified quitting by saying he didn't want to hurt himself.

Could be the chicken/egg thing but can't help but wonder if he was just having a bad night and needed someone/something to blame and that was his out. Like others have said, I have bad nights too when I feel the lanes are off but we are all bowling in those same conditions so as long as it is fair across the board then suck it up and do your best. Understanding there are exceptions for safety or previous injury type stuff but seems more like a 'cop out' to me

[mc_runner]

Yeah, it's a tough call if it's legitimate concern over injury vs. sour grapes. Like Aslan, I've witnessed some pretty bad injuries come up as a result of approaches being bad. However, with that said I tend to think that you need to adjust your game to fit whatever conditions you're in, generally. The approaches are kind of a grey area... if it's lane conditions tough luck. Bowl on them because we're all in the same boat.

In this case I'd probably give the guy the benefit of the doubt, especially considering you likely don't know his health history closely - but I'd also kind of keep tabs on it and see if it comes up again and if it does, bring it up (especially if it's not a similar situation).

[GrumpyCatFace]

I definitely get not risking your knees for a bad condition. That’s a good enough reason to stop, IMO.

[classygranny]

Quitting is not in my book. Unfortunately, some people can. While I consider the issue is more of my commitment to my team as well as to myself, I could/would never quit over an approach or lane condition. In fact, when my elbow was at its worst, my team had to make me quit in the middle of a league session, as they could tell how much pain I was in. To say the least, I was a bit relieved they made me, but I'm not sure if I would have on my own.

This week we bowled a senior tournament in Las Vegas. Humidity was high and we were on the high end so the approaches were very sticky. We all made it through. I've noticed that when the approaches are a bit unpredictable, most of us just slow our feet a bit and deal with a little less ball speed. Isn't that just part of adjusting?

[boomer]

Quitting is not in my book. Unfortunately, some people can. While I consider the issue is more of my commitment to my team as well as to myself, I could/would never quit over an approach or lane condition. In fact, when my elbow was at its worst, my team had to make me quit in the middle of a league session, as they could tell how much pain I was in. To say the least, I was a bit relieved they made me, but I'm not sure if I would have on my own.

This week we bowled a senior tournament in Las Vegas. Humidity was high and we were on the high end so the approaches were very sticky. We all made it through. I've noticed that when the approaches are a bit unpredictable, most of us just slow our feet a bit and deal with a little less ball speed. Isn't that just part of adjusting?

I think so.

[Phonetek]

Did anyone bring these approach conditions to the counter? If there was concern for injury then they could have possibly tried cleaning the approaches before bowling resumed. Possibly postponed that bowling night. I assume they are synthetic approaches not real wood?

Ours are real wood so it's a bit easier to deal with. We can simply take a damp mop and clean them which we do monthly. I actually did it yesterday. It doesn't take long to do and they take about 10-15 minutes to dry completely if done properly.
When I say damp mop I mean damp, if it's dropping it's too much. I don't this would work on synthetic but I'm sure they have some method.

By all means if the conditions were hazardous then the center should have took some action. If it's one guy complaining it's one thing but an entire league that's a different thing all together.

[djp1080]

It seems that you all missed my point. I don't care about losing the points. I don't care that he broke the rules. I don't care about the absentee percentage. My question is this: Do you think that a bowler should quit because conditions are difficult or uncomfortable, or do you think that finding a way to overcome adversity that affects all the bowlers on the pair the same is a true test of a bowlers zeal for the game?

I've been bowling on conditions (burned or dry) all this summer season that I'd rather not be doing except that I'm bowing with a bunch of older guys who I enjoy playing with and they do, too. None of us had a double in the three games we played one week and another week three or four of us had 20 and 30 pins over average most games (some oil). If this fellow who couldn't contend with the sticky approaches could have done several things to aleviate the issue if others were able to handle them (sort of). If he had good shoes, perhaps changing the soles would have helped a bit. Borrowing a shoe brush might have worked. On the other hand, perhaps he thought he was going to injure himself due to the conditions, who knows?
If it were me, I would have tried my best and afterwards let the desk manager know how things were on the lanes. :)

[RobLV1]

I guess I have to explain that bowling is very different in Vegas. Bowling centers are in large casinos, owned by mega-corporations (except for South Point which is privately owned). There are no "desk managers." People who work the desk make very small salaries and are treated like mushrooms... kept in the dark and fed s***! To get the floors mopped, people have to be called from housekeeping whose priority are cleaning up the sticky candy from the floor of the movie theatre. If there is a problem, security is called from a different part of the building. There are no longer any night leagues where I bowl (Red Rock Lanes) as the "company" spent millions of dollars putting in a state of the art cosmic bowling system for which they can charge massive rates for open bowling. Leagues that are left during the day are given very low priority. With this being said, the center did nothing wrong to cause the sticky approaches. The simple fact of the matter is that Vegas is not set up to handle humidity since there rarely is any. When there is humidity around, every center in the valley has sticky approaches. Some are worse than others, mainly because of the centers position in the building... some are against outside walls, some are below ground level, and some are on the second floor. The point is that when you sign up to bowl a summer league in Vegas, you'd better expect to deal with stick approaches at some point. You don't whine and complain. You certainly don't quit. You learn to deal with it... whatever you have to do!

[Ryster]

We have similar conditions here in PA. Today it is going to be 80% humidity. The center I bowl at is good about running the A/C, however the humidity control is less than ideal. The humidity level in the center according to their digital thermostats is typically in the 60-70% range at any given time. If it is raining outside, forget about it. Stick city. We have wood approaches as well. You know it is bad when during Pro-Ams the PBA/PWBA professionals are constantly commenting on the sticky approaches and constantly checking their slide. The "veteran" bowlers at this house know what to expect and we deal with it. However, the hyper-sensitive bowlers pitch fits and go for the easy slide and baby powder. It is literally everywhere. My favorite is when someone dumps a pile of it under the ball return and then wipes their slide foot in it every time they go up to bowl. That's really classy.

I have seen people enter tournaments, get all set up, go to practice and then withdraw and demand their entry fee back due to the condition of the approaches. It happens. Just another aspect of bowling.

A bowler quitting mid-game for whatever reason is entirely their business. The only impact it has on me, or if the bowler is on my team, is if it is scored correctly. If they claim injury, and they are not actually injured, that is on them and karma will bite them in the butt. If they are quitting for the night because they just don't want to be there, then good on them for admitting it and getting out of our hair for the night.

[boomer]

Did anyone bring these approach conditions to the counter? If there was concern for injury then they could have possibly tried cleaning the approaches before bowling resumed. Possibly postponed that bowling night. I assume they are synthetic approaches not real wood?

Ours are real wood so it's a bit easier to deal with. We can simply take a damp mop and clean them which we do monthly. I actually did it yesterday. It doesn't take long to do and they take about 10-15 minutes to dry completely if done properly.
When I say damp mop I mean damp, if it's dropping it's too much. I don't this would work on synthetic but I'm sure they have some method.

By all means if the conditions were hazardous then the center should have took some action. If it's one guy complaining it's one thing but an entire league that's a different thing all together.

My local center does a similar thing - synthetic approaches, but they come through and clean before every league. They use an alcohol/water mix, I believe, and they leave our approaches very nice for every night.

[Phonetek]

I guess I have to explain that bowling is very different in Vegas. Bowling centers are in large casinos, owned by mega-corporations (except for South Point which is privately owned). There are no "desk managers." People who work the desk make very small salaries and are treated like mushrooms... kept in the dark and fed s***! To get the floors mopped, people have to be called from housekeeping whose priority are cleaning up the sticky candy from the floor of the movie theatre. If there is a problem, security is called from a different part of the building. There are no longer any night leagues where I bowl (Red Rock Lanes) as the "company" spent millions of dollars putting in a state of the art cosmic bowling system for which they can charge massive rates for open bowling. Leagues that are left during the day are given very low priority. With this being said, the center did nothing wrong to cause the sticky approaches. The simple fact of the matter is that Vegas is not set up to handle humidity since there rarely is any. When there is humidity around, every center in the valley has sticky approaches. Some are worse than others, mainly because of the centers position in the building... some are against outside walls, some are below ground level, and some are on the second floor. The point is that when you sign up to bowl a summer league in Vegas, you'd better expect to deal with stick approaches at some point. You don't whine and complain. You certainly don't quit. You learn to deal with it... whatever you have to do!

Ah yes, makes sense. The bowling alleys are treated like yet another attraction. I lived out there in the mid 90's. 30% humidity was high then. Believe it or not, it's caused by all those water attractions, people with actual grass watering and such. It is a dessert and there isn't much naturally occurring water out there. Not all the humidity is caused by it, but all that stuff is a major contributing factor. Go 30 miles outside the valley and conditions are much different where is not populated.

The only places I remember with bowling centers were Showboat, Sam's town and Sante Fe. I'm sure there were more but I payed no attention. Unfortunately those years of my life were VERY different and bowling wasn't at all a part of it. I squandered them with the wrong woman, wrong career and wrong lifestyle. Hence the reason I got the hell out of there. I dumped the woman, started a new career and started behaving like a responsible adult. Had I stayed, by now I'd either be broke and homeless, in jail or dead right now.

It's unfortunate that the casinos treat it as you say. Vegas used to be THE PLACE back in the day for the best tournaments in the country. On the upside, I'm sure they don't worry about the things I do like, how I'm going to get new bowling pins, pin spotter parts and many other things I need to keep my center going. You've pretty much described the down sides very well. It's sad that you have to adapt to such extremes when there may be something that could be done if customer service was more important.

I guess if the ladies tour could bowl outside in Reno with sand on the lanes and approaches then humidity on the approaches is just another obstacle. A crappy one to say the least but I guess all you can do is suck it up and hope for dry sunny weather. I bet the people who plant vs slide like myself were loving it!

[Aslan]

If thats the case...as Rob describes it...then it creates a unique scenario and one that is hard to relate to.

So, let me phrase it in a different way and see if those that have already "voted" would see it differently:

Let's say you joined up for fall season in your usual league and 3 weeks in the center was sold to AMC/Bowlmor/LuckyStrike/Etc. As part of this sale, they were going to cut staff down to one counter person and were only going to oil lanes once per day...at random depending on when the one maintenance person (that they now share between several centers) shows up to do it. They are letting you know this because it will impact a few things and they want you to be aware so you can prepare:

1) The lane conditions will be very random on most days since, unless the maintenance person happened to show up just before your league...you will likely be bowling on house conditions which will mean each lane will play differently. This will require every bowler to acquire an "arsenal"...all 1-ball or even 2-ball bowlers will likely be at a huge disadvantage. It also is advised that all bowlers in the league seek out silver level coaches to help them learn to adapt to these conditions as they come across them.

2) Given the lack of staffing, approaches may be sticky or they may be slick. Nobody will clean them. Given this can lead to severe injury if the bowler doesn't adapt...all bowlers will need adjustable footwear. That means bowling shoes with interchangeable soles and heels. At a minimum, an Ebonite sock to slip over your bowling shoe if the lanes get sticky. "Powdering your shoes" is not permitted as this violates USBC rules.

See, I can understand if a center says, "we're not going to oil pre-league". I personally wouldn't bowl in that league. As stated in #1...bowling on house conditions is random and simultaneously penalizes skilled bowlers that have learned to adjust to standard conditions while also penalizing non-skilled bowlers who haven't learned to adjust to anything they see. I wish the game wasn't pattern dependent...I wish we could get oil patterns out of the game altogether...it'll never be a serious sport as long as oil patterns determine the outcome the way they do...but it is what it is. Some bowlers don't care and are just there to drink beer and have fun...so for those leagues...oil, don't oil...whatever.

But, for a center not to care for their approaches...thats a safety issue. Thats a lawsuit waiting to happen. Now, a Vegas casino can afford to pay that lawsuit and I'm sure they have ironclad waivers in place to keep them safe. And, I realize the humidity happens so rarely that its not even worth making a fuss about. But how many bowlers in your league have interchangeable soles and heels? I'm in probably the 3rd best men's league in the state and I'd venture to guess < 15% of my league uses interchangeable heels/soles. Many of them have shoes capable of using interchangeable heels/soles but don't bother with it because their slide doesn't affect them much. Some people, it needs to be "just right"...others, they don't really care that much unless it's horribly off.

But, to say to a league that there may be times the approaches are so bad that you may be at risk of hurting yourselves...so you need to start buying new shoes and using interchangeable soles/heels or sliding socks...especially to a senior league? I mean, I'm trying to picture old ladies in those Ebonite sliding socks that have never worn those before and it's a terrifying picture!

The bottom line is, we've all bowled badly and been tempted to pack up and go home early. We've all blamed one thing or another...unfairly. The equipment, the scoring display, the speed of our drink service, the lane conditions, the weather, our teammates, the other team, our spouses, our kids, our work, our car, traffic, politics, and the list goes on. If we can imagine it, we can blame it for why we hit the pocket and left a 7-10. No matter how badly I bowl, I try to be a good sport and shake the other team's hands. Sometimes things are so bad I just pack up my stuff and leave...but I almost always feel bad about doing that. I've never gotten to the point of leaving early. I've come close a couple times...and that was usually because of things like this...the center didn't do their job and provide an atmosphere that was expected. Sure, I can adapt. I have training and multiple balls and interchangeable soles. But, the center's job was to provide a certain condition for all bowlers to bowl on and a reasonable and safe approach. If they, instead, provide random lane conditions and unsafe approaches...they have failed to do their job.

But, in this case...if the guy just left because he was bowling badly...I agree; bad form. Booo!
However, if the approaches were sticky to the point he felt unsafe...and the center couldn't (or even worse wouldn't) do anything to resolve it...he has every right to leave.

I understand Rob's frustration because there are FAR too many whiners in bowling that want to blame everybody but themselves when they don't strike. Believe me, I get that. I have an EPIC whiner on my team in my fall league to the point that I'm seriously considering leaving the team if it doesn't get better. And I can understand why Rob might want to force his opponents to bowl on conditions he knows puts them at a disadvantage. I get that. I just think we have to draw the line at potential for injury.

My opinion.

[Phonetek]

If thats the case...as Rob describes it...then it creates a unique scenario and one that is hard to relate to.

So, let me phrase it in a different way and see if those that have already "voted" would see it differently:

Let's say you joined up for fall season in your usual league and 3 weeks in the center was sold to AMC/Bowlmor/LuckyStrike/Etc. As part of this sale, they were going to cut staff down to one counter person and were only going to oil lanes once per day...at random depending on when the one maintenance person (that they now share between several centers) shows up to do it. They are letting you know this because it will impact a few things and they want you to be aware so you can prepare:

1) The lane conditions will be very random on most days since, unless the maintenance person happened to show up just before your league...you will likely be bowling on house conditions which will mean each lane will play differently. This will require every bowler to acquire an "arsenal"...all 1-ball or even 2-ball bowlers will likely be at a huge disadvantage. It also is advised that all bowlers in the league seek out silver level coaches to help them learn to adapt to these conditions as they come across them.

2) Given the lack of staffing, approaches may be sticky or they may be slick. Nobody will clean them. Given this can lead to severe injury if the bowler doesn't adapt...all bowlers will need adjustable footwear. That means bowling shoes with interchangeable soles and heels. At a minimum, an Ebonite sock to slip over your bowling shoe if the lanes get sticky. "Powdering your shoes" is not permitted as this violates USBC rules.

See, I can understand if a center says, "we're not going to oil pre-league". I personally wouldn't bowl in that league. As stated in #1...bowling on house conditions is random and simultaneously penalizes skilled bowlers that have learned to adjust to standard conditions while also penalizing non-skilled bowlers who haven't learned to adjust to anything they see. I wish the game wasn't pattern dependent...I wish we could get oil patterns out of the game altogether...it'll never be a serious sport as long as oil patterns determine the outcome the way they do...but it is what it is. Some bowlers don't care and are just there to drink beer and have fun...so for those leagues...oil, don't oil...whatever.

But, for a center not to care for their approaches...thats a safety issue. Thats a lawsuit waiting to happen. Now, a Vegas casino can afford to pay that lawsuit and I'm sure they have ironclad waivers in place to keep them safe. And, I realize the humidity happens so rarely that its not even worth making a fuss about. But how many bowlers in your league have interchangeable soles and heels? I'm in probably the 3rd best men's league in the state and I'd venture to guess < 15% of my league uses interchangeable heels/soles. Many of them have shoes capable of using interchangeable heels/soles but don't bother with it because their slide doesn't affect them much. Some people, it needs to be "just right"...others, they don't really care that much unless it's horribly off.

But, to say to a league that there may be times the approaches are so bad that you may be at risk of hurting yourselves...so you need to start buying new shoes and using interchangeable soles/heels or sliding socks...especially to a senior league? I mean, I'm trying to picture old ladies in those Ebonite sliding socks that have never worn those before and it's a terrifying picture!

The bottom line is, we've all bowled badly and been tempted to pack up and go home early. We've all blamed one thing or another...unfairly. The equipment, the scoring display, the speed of our drink service, the lane conditions, the weather, our teammates, the other team, our spouses, our kids, our work, our car, traffic, politics, and the list goes on. If we can imagine it, we can blame it for why we hit the pocket and left a 7-10. No matter how badly I bowl, I try to be a good sport and shake the other team's hands. Sometimes things are so bad I just pack up my stuff and leave...but I almost always feel bad about doing that. I've never gotten to the point of leaving early. I've come close a couple times...and that was usually because of things like this...the center didn't do their job and provide an atmosphere that was expected. Sure, I can adapt. I have training and multiple balls and interchangeable soles. But, the center's job was to provide a certain condition for all bowlers to bowl on and a reasonable and safe approach. If they, instead, provide random lane conditions and unsafe approaches...they have failed to do their job.

But, in this case...if the guy just left because he was bowling badly...I agree; bad form. Booo!
However, if the approaches were sticky to the point he felt unsafe...and the center couldn't (or even worse wouldn't) do anything to resolve it...he has every right to leave.

I understand Rob's frustration because there are FAR too many whiners in bowling that want to blame everybody but themselves when they don't strike. Believe me, I get that. I have an EPIC whiner on my team in my fall league to the point that I'm seriously considering leaving the team if it doesn't get better. And I can understand why Rob might want to force his opponents to bowl on conditions he knows puts them at a disadvantage. I get that. I just think we have to draw the line at potential for injury.

My opinion.

As a manager of a center I can tell you that if the center changed ownership after a season started, that the new owner would still be obligated to either abide by the league contacts that were already in place until they were renegotiated or face whatever the penalties are outlined in the contacts if they can't follow them. The contracts would be grandfathered in.

If they can't oil before league starts that day because they stupidly left it staffed with a singular incompetent boob that can't provide to the needs of the league then guess what... That night gets rescheduled. Or prior to bowling, that league votes on if they are going to bowl anyway and if the scores will count or not. At the very least, they would not be obligated to pay dues that night.

I know other centers don't operate the same as mine but I can say that EVERY staff member including myself oils the lanes. That is taught in the first week of training along with basic pin spotter repairs like pin jams, table jams, out of ranges and balls getting stuck. More complex repairs are left to assistant managers or above (usually me) or the mechanic when he's on duty.

Things like damp mopping of the approaches again since it's not done daily, fewer of the staff is taught this. However they all know how to grab a rag and a can of approach cleaner to remove foreign substances off an approach of the need should arise.

As far as a scenario like Rob's where it was a catastrophe caused by mother nature. You'd be hell bend on trying to prove negligence enough on the part of the establishment to win a lawsuit for injury. Especially since just about every scoring monitor in the US has a disclaimer on them that says something along the lines of "Beware that bowling has risk of injury blah blah blah" which must be checked prior to the lane powering on.

That said, the establishment SHOULD at least offer to try SOMETHING to remedy the situation if at all possible. A quick damp mopping of the approaches takes 15-20 minutes for 16 lanes. As long as the bowlers are going to be cordial and patient and not act like a bunch of a**hats I see don't see that to be unreasonable for anyone.

If that fails then again like mentioned earlier, the league votes if they want to postpone in hopes of better weather next time or proceed. The only scenario that's unacceptable is for everyone to do nothing and complain about it when people get hurt.

In Rob's case I do blame the establishment and the counter personnel. We all look out at the lanes from the counter. I initially asked Rob if anyone brought this to the counters attention. The more I thought about it, they shouldn't have to. It's part of our JOB to see that people are being safe and everything is operating status quo.

If those people were so oblivious from seeing everyone hoping, lunging and struggling to balance at the foul lines. Seeing bowlers whipping out the shoe brush, swapping soles and wiping their shoes then they themselves are idiots. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize there is a situation they need to attend to in order to keep people from face planting on the arrows. I personally would fire them once I caught wind of the situation, I don't tolerate incompetent morons. Sadly we don't exactly get scholars applying for a job at a bowling alley. However they should at least have a modicum of sense and the ability to notice something obvious. If they can't then I don't need them.

Seriously Rob, I'm sorry you have to deal with this crap. At my center you wouldn't have to deal with these issues. I run a tight ship, moreso with leagues. The biggest issue you'd be dealing with at my center are the side boards. The last set we got were an inferior design and they all rapidly deteriorated, some worse than others. The result is, on some lanes there is poor pin action so you get punished more for light pocket hits. So if you're a guy who depends on messengers then I'd suggest you'd learn to bury it on it solid pocket hits until we get our new and extremely expensive replacements. Of which are back ordered because the materials aren't available. Other than that you'd be golden and worry free about doing unexpected front flips out on the lane.

[J Anderson]

Aslan, while I haven’t run into this exact scenario, the alley where I started bowling must have know for at least a year before they closed that they were about to be replaced by a small shopping center. I think that once they found out the lease wasn’t being renewed they stopped buying supplies and stopped oiling the lanes once they used up the oil on hand. They did however keep things clean right to the end. They would dust mop the approaches between leagues.

I think in your scenario where the new management is not going to properly maintain the approaches I would quit the league and find somewhere else to bowl.

By the way, even though I have interchangeable soles I almost always use the same number slide. My experience at a different center with stickier approaches was that the next step up was too much slide.

[RobLV1]

Again, the center did nothing wrong with regard to the approaches. You could clean them all day long and it wouldn't make any difference at all. Vegas is just not set up to deal with humidity; it just happens so rarely. Every center in town has the same problem to some degree when the humidity goes up. Depending on the positioning of the bowling center within the casino building, there's some variation but it's always there. Today we have over 70% humidity with a flash flood watch through mid nite tonight. League tomorrow morning is going to be all kinds of fun!

[boomer]

I'm in Riverside, the Inland Empire of California and we're dealing with the same. While we're not quite as dry as Vegas, we're still borderline desert (albeit with a TON of irrigation) so seeing a day of rain in late July is quite surprising (but pleasant. . . 72F plus a nice rain? I'll take it!) - it's going to be interesting bowling this evening. . .

[Phonetek]

Again, the center did nothing wrong with regard to the approaches. You could clean them all day long and it wouldn't make any difference at all. Vegas is just not set up to deal with humidity; it just happens so rarely. Every center in town has the same problem to some degree when the humidity goes up. Depending on the positioning of the bowling center within the casino building, there's some variation but it's always there. Today we have over 70% humidity with a flash flood watch through mid nite tonight. League tomorrow morning is going to be all kinds of fun!

I have to believe there is something that could be done about this. If this happened where I am I'd be dragging my AMF rep to my center showing them the issue to see what they could come up with to combat the problem. It's their job to do that very thing.

My rep is coming out in early August to bring me some new seating by the lanes. I will ask him. If not I'll throw it out there at the next BPAA meeting and see how other centers deal with this. Illinois is far from lacking in humidity. If for any other reason, at least to satisfy my curiosity.

Perhaps it's as simple as improper climate controls and the absence of a de-humidifyer? Surely a casino world have the money to install that?

[RobLV1]

Phonetek: I'm sure that the casinos have enough money to install de-humidifiers; they just don't care enough to do it. Who can blame them? They are giant publicly owned corporations that are in business to make money. The only way that bowling centers can add to this profit is to provide for entertainment for the kids while their parents are gambling. That's why the center where I bowl spent millions to install high tech cosmic lighting so that they can charge $7 a game at night rather than having any leagues at all at night. Bowlers are not important to them, despite the fact that we rarely walk through the casino to get to the bowling center without dropping some money into a slot machine.

[boomer]

I can't imaging anybody installing de-humidifiers for the one day in . . . however long . . . that a DESERT gets humidity! LOL I mean - it's the desert.

I don't agree, though, that bowlers aren't important to them. The number of Vegas Leagues from the SoCal area that send bowlers (which rent rooms and gamble a LOT) is pretty significant. Maybe the resident leagues? IDK - the times I've hung around to see what's going on, the centers seemed full and the drinks were flowing; I can't imagine that the casinos would look past that money.

[Phonetek]

Phonetek: I'm sure that the casinos have enough money to install de-humidifiers; they just don't care enough to do it. Who can blame them? They are giant publicly owned corporations that are in business to make money. The only way that bowling centers can add to this profit is to provide for entertainment for the kids while their parents are gambling. That's why the center where I bowl spent millions to install high tech cosmic lighting so that they can charge $7 a game at night rather than having any leagues at all at night. Bowlers are not important to them, despite the fact that we rarely walk through the casino to get to the bowling center without dropping some money into a slot machine.

It's not only bowling centers in casinos that don't care about league bowlers, we all know it's any of them that are family fun centers. Casinos just have yet another reason not to care. It's so sad and it aggravates me.

Last night we had a celebrity night where they had an event and the after party was at my center. Yeah it was cool and all to shake hands, get some autographs, photos and sit around talking to stars I grew up watching for a few hours. All wonderful people and my wife and kids had a blast but you know what?

I can't wait for the actual bowlers to come back this fall. I'm packing the house 7 nights a week with leagues. I've had enough of birthday parties, wedding receptions, company parties, divorce parties and whatever else you name it. I'm sick of extreme lights and loud thumpity thump music. I wanna see some competition and honor scores! Leave the screaming kids, chicken tenders and sour patch kids at home with the sitter! Sorry Rob, got off on a tangent but you know what I mean.

[Ryster]

My local center has been acquired by Bowlero, and we are still waiting to see what kinds of changes that brings. Based on what has been posted online about Bowlero (who also owns AMF and Bowlmor) and their general practices with regards to leagues, we are expecting major changes. Hopefully they will come in and improve the reliability of the equipment. That would be something we would love to see. However, it is also expected that those changes will come with increases in pricing/lineage fees, and possibly a different approach to lane conditioning compared to what we had under the previous, private owner. Leagues are a massive draw currently and I would hate to see the new owners neglect that in favor of parties and recreational bowlers. Leagues are guaranteed business, however Bowlero also makes a ton of money on food/drink, shoe rentals, and arcades. Most league bowlers aren't renting shoes, nor are they playing in the arcade. If the food prices turn out to be anything like we are hearing they will be (compared to the outgoing restaurant) then league bowlers will be eating a lot less. If prices go too high overall, league bowlers will simply leave.

[mc_runner]

I honestly don't have too many complaints with Bowlero thus far. It's still a league focused center - prices are higher for lineage/games/etc, but the food is better (center-dependent) and the equipment is more up to date. The shot changes regularly and is absolutely more challenging than before. We're now a center where people have a low avg. and kill it on tournaments in other houses, vs. the other way around before. All in all, some good, some bad but nothing I'd really complain about.

[Ryster]

I honestly don't have too many complaints with Bowlero thus far. It's still a league focused center - prices are higher for lineage/games/etc, but the food is better (center-dependent) and the equipment is more up to date. The shot changes regularly and is absolutely more challenging than before. We're now a center where people have a low avg. and kill it on tournaments in other houses, vs. the other way around before. All in all, some good, some bad but nothing I'd really complain about.

After a lane breakdown the other day during league, we asked if Bowlero was going to update the pinsetters. We were told there were no plans for that. That was disappointing to hear. But hey, they already installed a swanky new coffee maker, so I guess we can see where their priorities are.

[classygranny]

I honestly don't have too many complaints with Bowlero thus far. It's still a league focused center - prices are higher for lineage/games/etc, but the food is better (center-dependent) and the equipment is more up to date. The shot changes regularly and is absolutely more challenging than before. We're now a center where people have a low avg. and kill it on tournaments in other houses, vs. the other way around before. All in all, some good, some bad but nothing I'd really complain about.

A lot depends on the past as well as the general manager. Some centers are more "league" centered while others are more "fun" centers with others being somewhere in the middle. Almost every bowling alley in the Phoenix Metro area is a Bowlero, and they all vary. Unfortunately, the two I bowl in the most, have spent more money on remodeling, flooring, awful seating, scoring software (which makes the machines very-very slow) but nothing towards equipment. And nothing done to the restrooms.

Hope you fend better than us!

[Aslan]

I guess I'd approach the question from another angle then.

If this is some magical condition that rarely happens...some "El Nino" event. And this bowler likes to slide but found that on this given night he couldn't due to the humidity...or at least not to his liking. What would you have him/her do?

I mean, lane conditions are one thing. Everyone bowls on the same pair so no matter the issue...everyone can try to adjust. But approach issues...are you:

- recommending that a bowler who routinely slides simply stand at the line and swing the ball back and forth and release it...like a wheelchair bowler?
- recommending the bowler visit the pro shop and buy new shoes, new soles, new heels?
- recommending the bowler purchase an Ebonite sliding sock and learn to use that over the course of 3 games?
- recommend the bowler ask the center for permission to bowl in his/her socks?

Like I said, it's one thing if it's lane conditions. I've played on some HORRIBLE lane conditions that even a blind, bribed USBC tech wouldn't stand for...where it's fairly obvious the center had "issues" with their oiling machine or decided pre-league oiling would be suspended in favor of daily or weekly oiling...for whatever reason. But, you're talking something else. You're talking about getting ready to bowl leagues and having the center shut off the lights, release coyotes in the building, and have the desk attendant randomly yell out "Yahtzee" at various times during people's downswings. And it's supposed to be "okay" because "it's Vegas Baby! Anything can and will happen!"

Being able to slide...at least a little...is a rather important part of an approach. And if you're used to it...I don't know what you want that person to do? I'd personally be fine with it. It'd justify me having a bag full of sliding soles and heels...most of which I never use. But, I'm in the outlier 1% in that regard. Even bowlers that went to the expense of buying the top end, name brand bowling shoes...with replaceable soles...will see me switch soles and remark, "wow, so you got different soles for your shoes?"

[Phonetek]

Okay so I posed the question regarding sticky synthetic approaches at the BPAA meeting as promised. This meeting has proprietors from 26 centers in my area.

I was given 2 solutions that were unanimous throughout all the centers. The first was to use a floor buffer covered with burlap similar to a potato sack. This is not recommended for wood approaches that have been varnished. It will turn them into an ice rink. You'll have the opposite problem. Synthetic on the other hand it works perfectly.

Second solution which I was nearly on the mark before when I said a damp mop. Normally water temperature isn't really anything I worry about but they specified to use very hot water. Again, damp not soaked.

Both of these methods are the common practice here throughout all these centers in Illinois which is a very humid state. Neither are expensive nor difficult. A bit time consuming in larger centers but easily doable even for casino bowling center in the desert.

[RobLV1]

Neither are expensive nor difficult. A bit time consuming in larger centers but easily doable even for casino bowling center in the desert.

ANY additional expense will never be considered for a casino bowling center for the simple reason that casino management considers bowling centers to be nothing more than lost revenue; areas that could house lots of slot machines!

[Phonetek]

ANY additional expense will never be considered for a casino bowling center for the simple reason that casino management considers bowling centers to be nothing more than lost revenue; areas that could house lots of slot machines!

LOL Alrighty then, the hot damp mop method sounds like the solution for your center. I assume they own at least one mop and have running hot water.

My only goal Rob was to find a solution for your problem. I knew there had to be an answer besides you guys were just screwed. Luckily I had the resources available to me to be able to get you a couple.

What, if anything is done with that information is another story all together. Hopefully you can pass it on and they will implement it the next time the issue should arise. Otherwise I hope the bowlers stay prepared to add a few gymnastic style front flips to their normal approach. Good luck. =)

[Hammer]

I agree with you Rob that the bowler should have continued bowling no matter if the approach is sticky or the lanes too dry. You put up with whatever the conditions are. That is just bowling no matter what the conditions are.