ball surface vs core

[boatman37]

Seems like kind of a rookie question but after last week I'm wondering here. Lanes were very dry last week and scores were down across the board for about 90% of the bowlers. My typical night is start with the Uppercut (3000 grit) at about the 10 board but adjust from there if needed. Towards the middle of game 2 I usually have to start moving in and game 3 I'm using the Igniter (3000 grit) but the Igniter has a weaker core. Last week I started with the Igniter after the Uppercut was rolling out early. I moved in a little but couldn't get anywhere near my target. So aside from the lanes being like the Sahara I was having an off night too. Grabbed the Conspiracy (1000 grit) and was going to get closer to the middle but decided to stay with the Igniter and power through it. The only weaker ball I have besides my plastic T-Zone is my Rhino pearl. With my low tilt and medium rotation the T-Zone goes almost straight so decided against that (in hindsight that may have been a good move which is the reason for this post). I have a Black Widow Gold that I haven't used in quite awhile but used to be my drier lane ball.
So my question is this...With my lower tilt and medium RPM is the Rhino a bad choice for me? Am I further ahead using maybe the BWG with a polished surface since it has a stronger core to get it to turn? Currently the BWG has about a 3000 grit but can't remember now. I'd have to dig through my spreadsheet to see. But it is not polished. I have my CTD 5000P pad in my bag (the BWG is at the center now) so may hit that before we start just in case we are really dry again. Thinking with polish on it it may have been perfect for last weeks conditions? Or even my Squatch pearl? Same thing there with polish? Both of those balls are at the center but might be able to throw one on the PSO's spinner with polish before we start tonight. Or maybe no polish and the 5000P? Thinking if I use polish then go with about a 1000 o 2000 base then polish? We don't typically see these conditions but 2 weeks in and both weeks have been different. Meaning week 1 I started out with the Uppercut out around the 6 or 7 which usually never works way out there. I can get away with the Igniter that far out but rarely ever the Uppercut. Threw 22 strikes that night so that line worked well. Now last week my weaker ball was rolling out early. Yeah I know I could have moved in more but the more I moved in the worse I would miss my target. Week 1 was a 619 and week 2 a 549 so even as bad as last week was I ended up salvaging a so-so night

More in general...is it a good idea for lower tilt medium or lower RPM to stay away from weaker cores?

[RobLV1]

I find it very interesting that you refer to the actual surface grit on each of your bowling balls, but only refer to the cores in terms of weak or strong. How are you defining the strength of the cores? What are the low RG's? What are the differentials? Are all the balls drilled using the same layout? Tell me about the actual specifications of the cores in your arsenal, and I'll gladly answer your questions for you.

[boatman37]

I find it very interesting that you refer to the actual surface grit on each of your bowling balls, but only refer to the cores in terms of weak or strong. How are you defining the strength of the cores? What are the low RG's? What are the differentials? Are all the balls drilled using the same layout? Tell me about the actual specifications of the cores in your arsenal, and I'll gladly answer your questions for you.

I have added the data but more or less what I was wondering is should a low tilt medium rev bowler avoid a ball like the Rhino pearl with a weaker core? But I am interested in hearing what you have to say about these balls. I tend to migrate towards pearls with lower RG. I also had a solid Conspiracy and a solid Kingpin but they pretty much never come out of the bag. I feel I don't do well with solids but that could be a mental thing too. Or is it that my release just doesn't fit a solid well?

Uppercut has a smoother arc with a little snap at the end of the pattern. Igniter rolls a little straighter with a little more back end snap. BWG rolls the straightest with the sharpest snap. Squatch very similar to Uppercut. Rhino goes almost as straight as my plastic ball.

Brunswick Uppercut: RG = 2.487, Diff = .050 pearl sym - pin above ring finger but about 1" closer to the PAP

Brunswick Igniter: RG = 2.508, Diff = .043 pearl sym - pin up but centered between finger holes

Radical Squatch: RG = 2.482, Diff = .054 pearl sym (hardly ever use this ball) - pin directly above ring finger

Hammer Black Widow Gold: RG = 2.50, Diff = .058 pearl asym (hardly ever use this ball) - pin up directly above ring finger

Brunswick Rhino pearl: RG = 2.524, Diff = .030 pearl sym (hardly ever use this ball) pin up but closer to the middle finger

The Squatch and Uppercut roll very similarly. Not all are drilled the same. I don't have the stats on the drilling as I have never had my PAP checked but really like the shorter pin with the pin just above my ring finger but a little closer to the PAP. Here is my Uppercut. Really like this ball and everything about it
https://i.postimg.cc/SxxYb1k2/Uppercut.jpg (https://postimg.cc/QHvdpbBh)

[RobLV1]

Two more questions before we get started:

1. You've told me the pin positions, but where are the CG's on your bowling balls? (the little crown shape on the black ball pictured)
2. What is it about the Rhino pearl core that makes you think it's a weak core? (higher RG, or lower Diff)

[boatman37]

Two more questions before we get started:

1. You've told me the pin positions, but where are the CG's on your bowling balls? (the little crown shape on the black ball pictured)
2. What is it about the Rhino pearl core that makes you think it's a weak core? (higher RG, or lower Diff)
I have tried several surfaces on the Rhino and get no hook. According to Brunswicks site this is by design. My thoughts are it is a higher RG with a low diff so the core is weaker. I would be curious as to how something with a higher RG and higher diff might work but I have bought enough new balls that I don't really want to buy more to 'experiment'....lol

Here is the BWG:
https://i.postimg.cc/26FCSgH5/IMG-2389.jpg (https://postimg.cc/47dD82RC)

The Rhino:
https://i.postimg.cc/xdQfV0RZ/IMG-2558.jpg (https://postimg.cc/18Whp1b0)

The Kingpin:
https://i.postimg.cc/HnByP9Gn/IMG-3690.jpg (https://postimg.cc/9ww0DTQH)

Conspiracy:
https://i.postimg.cc/3NhSWptp/IMG_3912.jpg (https://postimg.cc/Vr7BVSQL)

[boatman37]

part 2:

Squatch:
https://i.postimg.cc/VLR0TPQP/Squatch.jpg (https://postimg.cc/xcXdJ716)

Uppercut:
https://i.postimg.cc/SxxYb1k2/Uppercut.jpg (https://postimg.cc/QHvdpbBh)

Igniter:
https://i.postimg.cc/G2gjFw6W/Ignitor.jpg (https://postimg.cc/CBDD0th7)

[RobLV1]

Okay, let's get started. Unfortunately the condition of my back limits how long I can sit at the computer, so this will take more than one session on my side.

The ball goes through 5 stages of motion in its trip down the lane. Hopefully you only see four of them. It starts by skidding through the oil, propelled by the momentum generated by your legs and armswing. This is called the skid phase. The skid phase continues until the ball starts to find friction and the force of the rotation imparted by your release becomes equal to the force of the forward motion of the ball. When the two forces become equal, the ball enters the hook phase. Keep in mind that the hook phase is dependent on the physics of the ball motion. It is not a measure of the amount of hook. When the ball stops hooking (hook-out), it begins to roll. When the ball begins to roll, it is at its most powerful. The goal is to get the ball to roll just before it enters the pins. If it rolls too early, it enters the fifth stage; roll-out. This is not a good thing. It results in weak sevens, solid nines, and washouts. Sound familiar?

As you have stated, you have low axis tilt. Bases on what you've said in the past, you also don't have a lot of axis rotation (your ball does not hook a lot). Because of your low axis tilt, the ball tends to reach the point where the side rotation and the forward momentum become equal for the simple reason that your low axis tilt combined with your lack of axis rotation means that the direction of the rotation of the ball is very close to the direction of the momentum. Because they are close, it means that the point of equality between the the two forces of forward momentum and side roll happens very quickly. In other words the ball starts to hook too soon.

With this in mind, is should be apparent to you that everything that you are doing to get the ball to hook more is counter-productive. Low RG balls and lots of surface do not make your balls hook more. They make your balls hook sooner. Now since the beginning of the hook phase is the beginning of a series of phases that cannot be altered once it starts, your use of low RG balls with lots of surface just result in a loss of energy that kills your ability to carry.

To get the balls further down the lane, you need cores with higher RG's and less surface. You need to learn to make use of the friction that exists past the pattern, rather than that which is outside the pattern laterally. I can tell you as another bowler with low axis tilt, the balls that I use regularly have low RG's of 2.60, 2.56, and 2.53. Even the ball with the RG of 2.53 has to be thrown very hard to get it far enough down the lane before it starts to hook.

Another misconception that you and many other league bowlers have is that the Differential is important. Differential is very important to high rev players. As rev rates go down, so does the importance of the differential. As an example, look at the Storm IQ Tour; one of the most popular Storm balls ever. Before the IQ Tour, Storm came out with original IQ. It had a very strong cover and a core with a very high differential. The touring pros found the ball to be too aggressive to be useful, so Storm came out with the IQ Tour, a ball with a much lower differential. Low and behold, the IQ Tour became one of their most popular balls among league bowlers despite its low differential. Bottom line, is that differential means very little to lower rev players.

When my back recovers, I'll get into layouts. Questions?

[boatman37]

Okay, let's get started. Unfortunately the condition of my back limits how long I can sit at the computer, so this will take more than one session on my side.

The ball goes through 5 stages of motion in its trip down the lane. Hopefully you only see four of them. It starts by skidding through the oil, propelled by the momentum generated by your legs and armswing. This is called the skid phase. The skid phase continues until the ball starts to find friction and the force of the rotation imparted by your release becomes equal to the force of the forward motion of the ball. When the two forces become equal, the ball enters the hook phase. Keep in mind that the hook phase is dependent on the physics of the ball motion. It is not a measure of the amount of hook. When the ball stops hooking (hook-out), it begins to roll. When the ball begins to roll, it is at its most powerful. The goal is to get the ball to roll just before it enters the pins. If it rolls too early, it enters the fifth stage; roll-out. This is not a good thing. It results in weak sevens, solid nines, and washouts. Sound familiar?

As you have stated, you have low axis tilt. Bases on what you've said in the past, you also don't have a lot of axis rotation (your ball does not hook a lot). Because of your low axis tilt, the ball tends to reach the point where the side rotation and the forward momentum become equal for the simple reason that your low axis tilt combined with your lack of axis rotation means that the direction of the rotation of the ball is very close to the direction of the momentum. Because they are close, it means that the point of equality between the the two forces of forward momentum and side roll happens very quickly. In other words the ball starts to hook too soon.

With this in mind, is should be apparent to you that everything that you are doing to get the ball to hook more is counter-productive. Low RG balls and lots of surface do not make your balls hook more. They make your balls hook sooner. Now since the beginning of the hook phase is the beginning of a series of phases that cannot be altered once it starts, your use of low RG balls with lots of surface just result in a loss of energy that kills your ability to carry.

To get the balls further down the lane, you need cores with higher RG's and less surface. You need to learn to make use of the friction that exists past the pattern, rather than that which is outside the pattern laterally. I can tell you as another bowler with low axis tilt, the balls that I use regularly have low RG's of 2.60, 2.56, and 2.53. Even the ball with the RG of 2.53 has to be thrown very hard to get it far enough down the lane before it starts to hook.

Another misconception that you and many other league bowlers have is that the Differential is important. Differential is very important to high rev players. As rev rates go down, so does the importance of the differential. As an example, look at the Storm IQ Tour; one of the most popular Storm balls ever. Before the IQ Tour, Storm came out with original IQ. It had a very strong cover and a core with a very high differential. The touring pros found the ball to be too aggressive to be useful, so Storm came out with the IQ Tour, a ball with a much lower differential. Low and behold, the IQ Tour became one of their most popular balls among league bowlers despite its low differential. Bottom line, is that differential means very little to lower rev players.

When my back recovers, I'll get into layouts. Questions?

That makes sense and goes along with what I was asking about the lower RG solid balls. They just don't seem to work well for me unless the lanes are saturated. Haven't used one in a few years but I rarely leave corner pins and when I do start to I know I need to change something. I probably average 2-3 corner pins a night (thankfully cause I hate those suckers...lol).
Will wait to hear the rest of your response before I ask anymore. I have thought about a ball like the Radical Counter Attack for later in the night (2.575 RG and .023 diff) but am afraid I will see the same results I see with the Rhino, which is a straight ball. In fact there isn't much difference between my Rhino and my plastic T-Zone in terms of shape

[RobLV1]

I just have a few minutes right now, but here's a little information about layouts. Your initial response indicating the position of the pin only tells me that you really don't understand much about layouts. The layout is a determination of how the core is positioned within the ball. When you purchase a new ball and look at the RG and Differential numbers, these numbers apply on the an undrilled ball. Once the ball is drilled, the numbers change depending on the cores position within the ball. Here's were it gets tricky. Some layouts raise the RG, others lower the RG. Some Layouts raise the Differential, others low the Differential. Unless you use one or, at the most, two layouts exclusively, you have no way of comparing the core numbers of your bowling balls. For instance, if you have one ball with an RG of 2.51, and another with an RG of 2.48, the actual RG's after drilling may be 2.52 and 2.47, or they may be 2.50 and 2.49... there's really no way to tell. So, if you want to be able to really understand the core values of your bowling balls, you have to limit your layouts so that the core numbers are comparable.

Another thing that I highly recommend is getting rid of the notion that some cores are weak, and some are strong. Our culture tells us that strong is good, and weak is bad. That's just a fact of modern life. In bowling, some cores are designed to roll early, and some are designed to go long. A combination of the lane condition and the way that the bowler bowls determine what works and what doesn't. There's no room for weak or strong, only right or wrong!

More later.

[boatman37]

I just have a few minutes right now, but here's a little information about layouts. Your initial response indicating the position of the pin only tells me that you really don't understand much about layouts. The layout is a determination of how the core is positioned within the ball. When you purchase a new ball and look at the RG and Differential numbers, these numbers apply on the an undrilled ball. Once the ball is drilled, the numbers change depending on the cores position within the ball. Here's were it gets tricky. Some layouts raise the RG, others lower the RG. Some Layouts raise the Differential, others low the Differential. Unless you use one or, at the most, two layouts exclusively, you have no way of comparing the core numbers of your bowling balls. For instance, if you have one ball with an RG of 2.51, and another with an RG of 2.48, the actual RG's after drilling may be 2.52 and 2.47, or they may be 2.50 and 2.49... there's really no way to tell. So, if you want to be able to really understand the core values of your bowling balls, you have to limit your layouts so that the core numbers are comparable.

Another thing that I highly recommend is getting rid of the notion that some cores are weak, and some are strong. Our culture tells us that strong is good, and weak is bad. That's just a fact of modern life. In bowling, some cores are designed to roll early, and some are designed to go long. A combination of the lane condition and the way that the bowler bowls determine what works and what doesn't. There's no room for weak or strong, only right or wrong!

More later.

Makes sense. Radical does provide after drilling RG and diff but as far as I know they are the only ones that do. But like you said, without me knowing my layout that does me no good. I just tell my PSO what I want the ball to do and he drills it. He has checked others stats but I had been 'experimenting' so much with different releases that I figured it was best to wait until I got comfortable and consistent. I have asked him recently but with the shutdown and everything else we just haven't got together to do it. I have promised myself I will not buy another ball until we get those stats...lol.
And yes, you are right, I don't understand layouts that well. On one hand I don't want to over-complicate things with having enough knowledge to be dangerous (which is probably where I am now) but on the other I'm a numbers guy and want to know everything I can.

And thanks for the 'tutoring'

https://i.postimg.cc/K8GVv066/Squatch-drill-sheet.png (https://postimages.org/)

[RobLV1]

I just tell my PSO what I want the ball to do and he drills it.
https://i.postimg.cc/K8GVv066/Squatch-drill-sheet.png (https://postimages.org/)

And herein lies the problem. PSO's are notorious for selling bowlers the balls that are in THEIR best interest to sell; over-inventoried items, promotional purchases, etc. and MAKING the ball do what you want it to do, rather than selling a ball that is DESIGNED to to what you want it to do. The result is the situation that you are in: having an arsenal of bowling balls that you cannot possibly understand without simply taking the PSO's word that the balls will do what he tells you they will do.

As for over-complicating the issue with too much knowledge, by using one or two layouts, you don't have to remember anything except the published information about the ball.

[Aslan]

I'm not sure if I can relate to Boatman or not. It seems like a lefty with an all Pearl arsenal shouldn't have "too much" of a problem like what he's been having. BUT...before Rob goes crazy...

...I realize that the coverstock doesn't mean as much as what we do to it (i.e. surfacing).

And that leads to the point I'd like to make...which is that it might be a good idea to invest in a good ball spinner and some surfacing supplies.

I also throw the ball in the upper 15mph to low 17mph range. I have significantly less of a rev rate than you do...which might be why the burnout affects me a little less. But, I also tend to use balls in the 2.48 to 2.52 RG range.

Now, I WILL say...I've been having trouble lately with lower RG balls...especially if there's a matte surface on them. My Thug Life (2.493/1000 matte) was lackluster. My Grudge Hybrid (2.49/4000 matte) had difficulties on drier THS shots. And my recent addition of the Optimus Solid (2.48/2000 matte) was practically useless.

HOWEVER...my Reaxx Pearl (2.492/4000 matte) was the 2nd best ball I've ever thrown. I've had tremendous success with the Fortera Exile (2.512/500 (polished)). And, I've had early success with the Force Pearl (2.53/800 (polished)). The Aura Mystic I was using (until it cracked recently was a 2.481 RG but I surfaced it to 2000 and then finished it with Royal Compound.

My point is, while I agree with Rob...that many bowlers will see a ball like the Motiv Forge Flare with a 2.47 RG, 0.055 diff, solid cover, sanded to 2000 matte...and they'll think..."yup...thats the ball for me!" Then they'll try to throw it and the ball won't give them the angle they thought and will instead just hit weak....I ALSO think you can utilize a ball with a pearl/hybrid cover, a 2.48-2.51 RG, and a 0.046-0.056 diff...IF...IF you are willing to take the time to maintain the surface with surfacing compounds and/or polishes using a ball spinner ever 4-12 games. Absent consistent surfacing, I guess going with high RG stuff is the only option.

Given my recent struggles, I'm definitely going to be shying away from low RG/solids in the future. I just am not seeing THSs out there where those balls make sense for the average bowler. It seems like the bowling ball companies are almost doing a disservice to bowlers propping up stuff that doesn't work for 80% of bowlers...but, whatever. I think my next arsenal will go from a 2.48/2.49/2.52 type of design to more of a 2.49/2.54/2.50 type of design. I haven't had great luck with high RG balls (Slingshot/Bullet Train/300A/Yeah Baby Sinful)...but much of it was probably failing to learn 'how' to use them.

You're not alone though. My team on Tuesday...we were all leaving 10-pins, hitting weak, etc... Our anchor finally gave up and started throwing his spare ball in frustration. And NONE of them had polished stuff or high RG stuff to throw. I won high game and card game in Game 3 with a 203 because my Exile (2.512/R. Compound/polished)...despite being overdue for surfacing...still had enough polish on it to carry 5 strikes on 8 shots. Might have been 8 out of 8 if I executed better. Pushed 2 to the right and pulled one.

[boatman37]

I'm not sure if I can relate to Boatman or not. It seems like a lefty with an all Pearl arsenal shouldn't have "too much" of a problem like what he's been having. BUT...before Rob goes crazy...

...I realize that the coverstock doesn't mean as much as what we do to it (i.e. surfacing).

And that leads to the point I'd like to make...which is that it might be a good idea to invest in a good ball spinner and some surfacing supplies.

I also throw the ball in the upper 15mph to low 17mph range. I have significantly less of a rev rate than you do...which might be why the burnout affects me a little less. But, I also tend to use balls in the 2.48 to 2.52 RG range.

Now, I WILL say...I've been having trouble lately with lower RG balls...especially if there's a matte surface on them. My Thug Life (2.493/1000 matte) was lackluster. My Grudge Hybrid (2.49/4000 matte) had difficulties on drier THS shots. And my recent addition of the Optimus Solid (2.48/2000 matte) was practically useless.

HOWEVER...my Reaxx Pearl (2.492/4000 matte) was the 2nd best ball I've ever thrown. I've had tremendous success with the Fortera Exile (2.512/500 (polished)). And, I've had early success with the Force Pearl (2.53/800 (polished)). The Aura Mystic I was using (until it cracked recently was a 2.481 RG but I surfaced it to 2000 and then finished it with Royal Compound.

My point is, while I agree with Rob...that many bowlers will see a ball like the Motiv Forge Flare with a 2.47 RG, 0.055 diff, solid cover, sanded to 2000 matte...and they'll think..."yup...thats the ball for me!" Then they'll try to throw it and the ball won't give them the angle they thought and will instead just hit weak....I ALSO think you can utilize a ball with a pearl/hybrid cover, a 2.48-2.51 RG, and a 0.046-0.056 diff...IF...IF you are willing to take the time to maintain the surface with surfacing compounds and/or polishes using a ball spinner ever 4-12 games. Absent consistent surfacing, I guess going with high RG stuff is the only option.

Given my recent struggles, I'm definitely going to be shying away from low RG/solids in the future. I just am not seeing THSs out there where those balls make sense for the average bowler. It seems like the bowling ball companies are almost doing a disservice to bowlers propping up stuff that doesn't work for 80% of bowlers...but, whatever. I think my next arsenal will go from a 2.48/2.49/2.52 type of design to more of a 2.49/2.54/2.50 type of design. I haven't had great luck with high RG balls (Slingshot/Bullet Train/300A/Yeah Baby Sinful)...but much of it was probably failing to learn 'how' to use them.

You're not alone though. My team on Tuesday...we were all leaving 10-pins, hitting weak, etc... Our anchor finally gave up and started throwing his spare ball in frustration. And NONE of them had polished stuff or high RG stuff to throw. I won high game and card game in Game 3 with a 203 because my Exile (2.512/R. Compound/polished)...despite being overdue for surfacing...still had enough polish on it to carry 5 strikes on 8 shots. Might have been 8 out of 8 if I executed better. Pushed 2 to the right and pulled one.

I should add that I do have a spinner and a collection of CTD pads and freshen mine up every 10 or so games. But have tried various surfaces and tend to migrate towards the 3000 grit most of the time. I do have a couple of 'outliers' just in case (Conspiracy, Kingpin and BWG). The rest are all at 3000. I know that probably isn't the best way to build an arsenal but I tend to see more times when the lanes are dry than wet so less surface works better. I have tried polish and so far haven't had success with it but did throw my BWG on the spinner last night and hit it with a 1000 then Motiv 5000 polish with a pretty quick pass with the polish so will try that when the lanes get real dry.

I should also add that I make adjustments with speed as often as I do with moves. I throw anywhere from 15 to 17 at the pins depending on what the ball is doing.
All that said, I'm off to the best start I have probably ever had in terms of average but we are only 3 weeks in. But in scenarios like last week when we all struggled (I had a 549) I'm trying to figure out what to do then. In our 'normal' conditions I'm doing pretty well except my spares, which I plan to work on this week.
The other night I was high man on my team with a 607. Lanes weren't great but not too bad. We had a 215 average guy on our team that rolled a 549. He just couldn't get anything to work for him. I had to hunt to to find what would work for me. In our normal conditions I know I can start with the Uppercut at the 2nd arrow and hit the pocket. The other night that wasn't working so I felt good that I could find something that worked and adjust to it.

[RobLV1]

There are some underlying issues here that really need to be addressed. Foremost is the misplaced belief that is left over from the eighties that you need to find friction to help your ball to hook. Today you need to find oil to hold off the hook. From that left over belief comes the pre-occupation with coverstock materials and lots of surface, not to mention early rolling cores to help your ball to hook. Let me say that I firmly believe that the type of cover material; solid, pearl, or hybrid, means absolutely nothing! The existence of these different types of cover material is simply a marketing ploy by the ball companies to get you to buy three different "versions" of the same ball when, in reality, all you have to do is to modify the surface. Combine the ball companies marketing ploy with the PSO's claims that they can make any ball do anything with the right layout, and you have modern bowlers who are being screwed over by others lust for the all-mighty dollar!

It is often said that league bowlers see the lanes from side to side, while pro bowlers see the lanes from front to back. This means that simply throwing a highly surfaced overly aggressive bowling ball into the early friction on the outside part of the lane will do nothing but show you the all-precious hook that you perceive that you need to see without giving you the power that the hook should show you if it happens down the lane where it can do you some good.

I'm really happy to see that Aslan has decided to join this conversation as I have seen him bowl and know that you, Boatman, and Aslan have a whole lot in common. You are both looking for hook that your current releases won't let you have. In Aslan's case, I know that he would rather focus his attention on bowling ball strategies rather than making uncomfortable physical changes to his game. I hope that this thread will encourage him to change that. You can both learn to hook the ball without throwing charcoal briquets that roll out at forty feet. Rant over! LOL

Keep the questions coming.

[boatman37]

There are some underlying issues here that really need to be addressed. Foremost is the misplaced belief that is left over from the eighties that you need to find friction to help your ball to hook. Today you need to find oil to hold off the hook. From that left over belief comes the pre-occupation with coverstock materials and lots of surface, not to mention early rolling cores to help your ball to hook. Let me say that I firmly believe that the type of cover material; solid, pearl, or hybrid, means absolutely nothing! The existence of these different types of cover material is simply a marketing ploy by the ball companies to get you to buy three different "versions" of the same ball when, in reality, all you have to do is to modify the surface. Combine the ball companies marketing ploy with the PSO's claims that they can make any ball do anything with the right layout, and you have modern bowlers who are being screwed over by others lust for the all-mighty dollar!

It is often said that league bowlers see the lanes from side to side, while pro bowlers see the lanes from front to back. This means that simply throwing a highly surfaced overly aggressive bowling ball into the early friction on the outside part of the lane will do nothing but show you the all-precious hook that you perceive that you need to see without giving you the power that the hook should show you if it happens down the lane where it can do you some good.

I'm really happy to see that Aslan has decided to join this conversation as I have seen him bowl and know that you, Boatman, and Aslan have a whole lot in common. You are both looking for hook that your current releases won't let you have. In Aslan's case, I know that he would rather focus his attention on bowling ball strategies rather than making uncomfortable physical changes to his game. I hope that this thread will encourage him to change that. You can both learn to hook the ball without throwing charcoal briquets that roll out at forty feet. Rant over! LOL

Keep the questions coming.

Actually Rob I think I have changed my game up. In the past I was trying to make my ball hook which led to inconsistency. For about the last 8-12 months I went back to a more free flowing release that just feels natural rather than trying to really crank the ball to get more rotation. Now I'm pretty much just staying behind the ball and it feels natural. I'm also playing in near the 2nd arrow more now instead of way outside although this past week that wouldn't work form me.

I have also been watching where my ball exits the back of the lane. When I start seeing it exit closer to the 8 on a good hit then I know I need to change something. I usually try 2 or 3 shots to confirm but that is the main thing I watch besides where the ball enters the pocket. I try to watch to see what the 7 pin does but too much going on for that. Still trying to train my eyes to see that too.

[RobLV1]

Good job!

[boatman37]

Here is a more recent video of me. I have since got my balance a little better and am posting most of my shots now but this is what my release and ball motion looks like. And I think taking the summer off this year helped. I was non-stop with no time to 'reflect' or whatever. Now when we started back it seems like some of my bad habits are gone. Who knows...lol. It's only been 3 weeks so still early but I feel so much better at the line now.


https://youtu.be/GTt-YlmA0vc

[RobLV1]

It's really hard to see your video... it's very small. What I can see is your balance problem, which probably explains your lack of accuracy. It looks like you are using a four step approach, but not moving the ball until your second step. With the pause after the first step, this is resulting in a 3 1/2 step approach with very late timing that's causing you to fall off of the shot.

[boatman37]

It's really hard to see your video... it's very small. What I can see is your balance problem, which probably explains your lack of accuracy. It looks like you are using a four step approach, but not moving the ball until your second step. With the pause after the first step, this is resulting in a 3 1/2 step approach with very late timing that's causing you to fall off of the shot.

I think you are exactly right. I have started moving my ball as soon as my foot moves and that has helped. I also still take the little 'stutter step' or pause and my timing feels good now but I'm sure there is still room for improvement.

Here is a direct link to the video so you should be able to see it a little clearer. This was back around February or so of this year

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTt-YlmA0vc

[Aslan]

There are some underlying issues here that really need to be addressed. Foremost is the misplaced belief that is left over from the eighties that you need to find friction to help your ball to hook. Today you need to find oil to hold off the hook. From that left over belief comes the pre-occupation with coverstock materials and lots of surface, not to mention early rolling cores to help your ball to hook. Let me say that I firmly believe that the type of cover material; solid, pearl, or hybrid, means absolutely nothing! The existence of these different types of cover material is simply a marketing ploy by the ball companies to get you to buy three different "versions" of the same ball when, in reality, all you have to do is to modify the surface. Combine the ball companies marketing ploy with the PSO's claims that they can make any ball do anything with the right layout, and you have modern bowlers who are being screwed over by others lust for the all-mighty dollar!

It is often said that league bowlers see the lanes from side to side, while pro bowlers see the lanes from front to back. This means that simply throwing a highly surfaced overly aggressive bowling ball into the early friction on the outside part of the lane will do nothing but show you the all-precious hook that you perceive that you need to see without giving you the power that the hook should show you if it happens down the lane where it can do you some good.

I'm really happy to see that Aslan has decided to join this conversation as I have seen him bowl and know that you, Boatman, and Aslan have a whole lot in common. You are both looking for hook that your current releases won't let you have. In Aslan's case, I know that he would rather focus his attention on bowling ball strategies rather than making uncomfortable physical changes to his game. I hope that this thread will encourage him to change that. You can both learn to hook the ball without throwing charcoal briquets that roll out at forty feet. Rant over! LOL

Keep the questions coming.

I actually agree with almost all of this.

1. I agree that most bowlers struggle not because they kind find friction...but because their ball loses energy due to friction.

2. While I DO believe there are chemical differences in the cover stocks of balls...it's not just a marketing tool...there have been enough studies done to show that surfacing far outweighs cover stock thus making it a rather minor factor (compared to the marketing).

3. While I agree with most everything the late, great Mo Pinel preaches...I agree with Rob that much of the drill layout stuff is over-rated...especially for league level bowlers. At the pro level, it's a different story.

4. I agree with Rob's assessment that most bowlers get ultra-surfaced, powerful bowling balls and then get disappointed when they throw them up the dry part of the lane and they don't hook.

5. I also agree with Rob's assessment that in order to adopt an inside game I would have to drastically change my game.

And, #5 is where Rob and I slightly deviate in approaches. To adopt that style would require one or both of these things to change:

A) Increased rev rate.

B) Decreased speed.

Thus, I would become a rev dominant bowler and be able to play inside 15 and life would be rainbows and lollipops. The downside to this is that developing an increased rev rate is not an easy thing. And simply reducing speed would take the one slight physical advantage I have and make my entire a physical game non-existent. So, I can choose to change my game to play inside or use a better understanding of bowling balls and play the track. I, so far, have chose option B. "So far".

[boatman37]

Yeah I can move as far as about the 13 board but if I try going inside any further my ball won't hook at all. I have to slow my speed so far that it rolls out no matter which ball I use, thus defeating the purpose. I'm further ahead balling down and staying out where my ball will hook, which is what I ran into last week. Problem was I didn't have a ball that would work in that situation. I have tried all of my balls inside the 15 and they either won't read the friction and go straight or roll out and go straight...lol. I'm talking taking 3-4 MPH off my speed to get it to hook and from 16 MPH that is a bunch and presents it's own issues (timing). I could probably grab my spare ball and throw it straight but I get better results staying further outside with less surface.

[Aslan]

And, #5 is where Rob and I slightly deviate in approaches.

To expand on this further....because I've been thinking about it some more...

Let me preface this by saying, (because not everyone knows the past history)

1. I've gotten 1 on 1 instruction from Rob in the past.
2. I greatly respect his opinion on many bowling-related and non-bowling related matters.
3. I regularly use his advice and teachings in my current game.
4. I would say we certainly agree on more than we disagree.

However...concerning my quoted difference...it 'seems' to me...and I MAY BE WRONG...that Rob is trying to put all bowlers...or almost all bowlers...into a box that really should be reserved for older bowlers and bowlers that are speed-challenged. Let me explain...because thats not 'a shot'...far from it.

See, I met Rob before his more recent health failings. Gods be good, he recovered to the point that he can still bowl and at a relatively high level...although he would be the first to admit not at the level he could before his ailments. However, his ailments gave him a blessing in disguise (in my eyes)...a way to see bowling with a unique perspective and the opportunity to help other bowlers who face similar challenges. And there are MANY bowlers that are being afflicted with ailments or just old age...and are losing the speed they once had...and becoming "rev dominant'...not because they are developing a 425 RPM release....but because they can no longer throw 17-19mph.

This change in Rob's approach allowed him to look at his approach to the lanes differently and look at his arsenal differently. He MUST use higher RG equipment. He MUST utilize the oil and stay away from the dry. His adaptions have allowed him to regain a level of bowling that many bowlers lose forever when they suffer injuries (or even just get older)...and he's the perfect resource for those type of bowlers on how to adapt their game to restore their game to close to what it was before.

I wish every week that my teammate would seek out Rob and take Rob's advice. My teammate used to be a 200+ average bowler but suffered a hip injury and now he can't throw heavier equipment and can't hit the speeds he used to. He's always been a cranker style...but now he's down in the 10-12mph range. He usually spends the whole evening in misery as he goes from a strong ball that hooks too much to a plastic ball that hits the pocket and deflects. I've tried to help him understand the need for a higher RG and his only response was, "what is RG?" I've given him advice, I've given him Rob's advice via proxy...but he's that typical bowler that doesn't take advice. He's been bowling too long and too well to listen.

Like Mark Baker told me once. There's 3 types of bowlers and only one type is generally going to seek out coaching.

1. Those who are terrible bowlers, but too terrible to care.
2. Bowlers that are very good and therefore think they know too much to get anything out of coaching.
3. Those bowlers in that 160-180 range that are just good enough to want to get better but not so good that they are beyond listening. It's #3 that are generally the ones that seek out coaching.

So, back to my original premise/issue/question...all bowlers in a box.

See, speed dominant bowlers...are going to struggle if you try to move them inside. It's just a fact. It's pure physics. It can't be altered by opinion. 240 RPMs at 15.5-17.5 mph is not enough to make a ball turn when that ball spends the majority of the travel distance in the oil. There are little things you can do to help make that happen...lower RG equipment...sanded equipment, etc... But then what's the difference between higher RG/polished equipment in the dry versus sanded/lower RG equipment in the oil? It's the same physical dynamic at play...just in different ways. It's preference at that point.

So why would one "prefer" the track with polished equipment over dull equipment in the oil?

Well, 3 reasons. See, there is a method to my madness and none of these reasons are "to annoy Rob".

1. As Parker Bohn once told me, when I asked him what the biggest difference was between the national tour and PBA50 tour was...it's speed. The longer you can hang onto speed...the better. To give up speed...just for the sake of playing inside...is like hitting yourself in the knee with a hammer so you can play with knee problems when you previously didn't have knee problems. Never give up speed until God makes you.

2. Rob and I generally agree....generally...that you want to move left...not right. Well, the further right you START...the more options you have as the evening progresses. The further LEFT you start...the LESS options you have as the evening progresses. Ideally I'd love to start out on 10 and never move left of 11 and throw a 900 series. But, odds are I'm gonna have to move left as the night progresses...and some nights have moved as far left as 19. :eek: Last night I finished standing at 29-30 and throwing at 15-16 at the arrows. Not exactly me "playing the track"!

3. Most of the people around me, throwing 300-games...are throwing up the track. If Rob's theories were 100% bulletproof...nobody throwing right of 12 would ever accomplish such a feat. Their bowling balls wouldn't have the carry. So, there "must" be a way to retain energy in the dry.

The important things aren't what Rob and I differ on...but what we agree on. And the important thing for both Boatman and myself...is to try and figure out...how to fix the current dilemma we are facing. I don't think the solution is lowering our ball speed to 12mph, increasing our rev rate 100 rpms, moving inside center arrow, and throwing 2.56-2.58 RG equipment. But, I'll be brutally honest...I'm starting the year with a 37% strike rate...and I'd feel a LOT better about giving advice if that number was in the 43-50% range

I WILL say...if I can't figure things out and finally am forced to move inside and take Rob's advice...it will be more than just a move inside. It will be an adoption of the 2-handed style. If I can't bowl the way I was taught all my life and am forced to play some 'new game' of throwing a ball in a pool of oil to an 8-board breakpoint...then I might as well go all the way and abandon 'bowling' completely and take up whatever "2-handed bowling" is.

[boatman37]

seems what you posted is a very good synopsis of what I see when I try to play in the oil. Only way I can is if I slow down so much that I'm uncomfortable.
Oh, just checked my stats for the year and I'm at 53.9% strikes (55/102) after 9 games and I'm definitely not comfortable giving advice...lol

[RobLV1]

Note to Aslan:

Several years ago I wrote an article for BTM entitled "The Spaces Between." It is still available to members on the BTM website. It talks about setting up an arsenal based on the individual Speed/Rev balance of the bowlers. My views on this subject have not changed. I was rev dominant when I wrote the article, and I am still rev dominant. That is why I use balls that are in the high RG range. The reason that I recommended higher RG balls for Boatman, is because he said his has a lower axis tilt which means that his balls will tend to roll earlier than someone with a more axis tilt. With your high ball speed and lower rev rate, I would never recommend balls with a higher RG, but I would recommend using less surface to take advantage of the dry past the pattern rather than trying to get something that will hook in the oil..

I have never, and I will never try to use a one-size-fits-all approach to any bowling-related subject: arsenal selection, lane adjustments, or physical game. I always try to help the individual who is asking for help.

[boatman37]

Note to Aslan:

The reason that I recommended higher RG balls for Boatman, is because he said his has a lower axis tilt which means that his balls will tend to roll earlier than someone with a more axis tilt. With your high ball speed and lower rev rate, I would never recommend balls with a higher RG, but I would recommend using less surface to take advantage of the dry past the pattern rather than trying to get something that will hook in the oil.

I'm glad what you are saying is aligning with my thoughts so I know I'm on the right track..lol. When I throw my Rhino Pearl it goes almost as straight as my plastic ball, even with a 1000 grit (yes I have tried it). That's why I mentioned earlier that I'm worried about buying something like a Radical Counter Attack. But when I throw the Kingpin or even the Conspiracy I can actually see it roll out and deflect. I have also promised myself I will not buy another ball until I get my specs all checked so I know where I am.

[Aslan]

Note to Aslan:

I have never, and I will never try to use a one-size-fits-all approach to any bowling-related subject: arsenal selection, lane adjustments, or physical game. I always try to help the individual who is asking for help.

Again, I didn't mean for that 2nd post to sound like a "shot"...it wasn't meant that way. I've just never heard you recommend anything but moving left into what I call a 3rd/4th arrow game where ball speeds need to be lower and angles greater and the bowler really needs to be a more rev dominant bowler. I "understand" the concept that you are preaching...and am experiencing a LOT of what Boatman is struggling with myself with THSs seeming to shrink in width or volume or maybe balls chewing them up more than in the past...thus balls are "burning up" and we're losing carry. Most bowlers don't understand the concept and they stay out in that track, where they are comfortable, and try more aggressive equipment, which makes things worse. So, I 'get' it.

And I DO need to work on my physical game. I start at the second set of dots to intentionally keep my speed at 15.5-17.5. If I can develop a consistent +100 RPMs...I have room to move back in the approach and could add another 2 mph to my game. I just can't do that NOW...when I have a sub-250 RPM rev rate.

My physical game seems to be hindered by my weight and the effect it has on my slide knee. In order to get my hand in a good position, I need to get a better knee bend. But, when I get a decent bend in my knee...I will often get a sharp pain in my knee and about collapse. This was a problem when my weight was at 215-225...and is certainly a problem at 230-240. Without that knee band and hand position, I'm releasing the ball with my hand more on top of the ball than beneath it and, as you know, it's just nearly impossible to get any RPMs that way.

I have to decide if I'm gonna step uo an lose the weight and see if I can improve the RPMs on my own...OR if I need to accept that I'm gonna stay heavy and seek out coaching to see how I can generate more revs without more knee bend.

[Aslan]

..how does it compare to Boatman's??

I put such little weight into layout that I don't even know my axis tilt. Pics below (assuming I can remember how to add photos). Info below.

https://i.postimg.cc/8kLPRJmy/20210918-084954.jpg (https://postimg.cc/5jNV1tGv)
Storm Optimus Solid, symmetric core, solid cover, 2.48 RG, 0.048 diff., 216.3 PerfectScale Score, 1000/1500/2000 surface.

https://i.postimg.cc/650WPkSn/20210918-085032.jpg (https://postimg.cc/F7YXdBhH)
Lane Masters Yeah Baby Sinful, symmetric core, solid cover, 2.62 RG, 0.050 diff., n/a PerfectScale Score, 500/800/1000 surface.

https://i.postimg.cc/qM0BjJmp/20210918-085102.jpg (https://postimg.cc/bdCjvhc5)
900 Global Special Ops, asymmetric core, hybrid cover, 2.52 RG, 0.044 diff., 182.3 PerfectScale Score, Step 2/Step3/resin polish

https://i.postimg.cc/httDRCWw/20210918-085148.jpg (https://postimg.cc/8jxQhmCB)
Pyramid Force, asymmetric core, pearl cover, 2.53 RG, 0.051 diff., 234.9 PerfectScale Score, 800/Step 2/resin polish

As you can see, my pinn/RG placement seems to be along the right side of my hand placement versus Boatman's which is more to the left side. I'm "assuming" that is because he's a Lefty? I also notice that his RG is located much closer to his finger holes than mine is. Mine is only close to the finger holes on the YBS. On the Optimus and Force it is noticeably pushed off to the right and on the Special Ops it is closer to the thumb hole.

Any guys out there who understand drilling layouts that can compare Boatman's and mine (even though you're comparing a lefty to a righty)?

[RobLV1]

Aslan:

Without knowing your relative PAP's, there is no way to compare the layouts between your balls and Boatmans. While having seen you bowl, and Boatman's video, my guess is that your PAP's are totally different. Just looking at the position of the markings on two different bowlers bowling balls is irrelevant, and it is the most common mistake that bowlers make. A layout that works for one bowler may have just the opposite effect for another bowler with a different PAP. Ask your PSO to find your PAP for you if you are really interested in learning about layouts.

Axis tilt and Axis rotation are two different things. Axis tilt is how the ball rotates around the vertical axis. Imagine a dowel going from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock on your bowling ball. If that dowel stays straight up and down as the ball rolls down the lane, that is 0 degrees of axis tilt. This means that the ball is rolling straight end over end down the lane. The more angle there is to that dowel, the higher the degree of axis tilt. The simplest way to get a feeling for your axis tilt is to see how close the oil rings are in relation to the finger holes and thumb holes on your ball. Axis rotation is how the ball rotates around the horizontal axis as the ball goes down the lane.

[Aslan]

Yeah, I meant to ask for my PAP last time I had my balls drilled. But, the last couple times the pro shop was really busy and I didn't want to bother him. But, I guess, for the $330+ I'm paying I shouldn't feel too bad about the slight inconvenience. :rolleyes:

All I know is my track is very close (about half a thumbnail) to my thumbhole. I would measure it...but I just re-did my surfaces so I don't have any tracks right now.

[RobLV1]

Yeah, I meant to ask for my PAP last time I had my balls drilled. But, the last couple times the pro shop was really busy and I didn't want to bother him. But, I guess, for the $330+ I'm paying I shouldn't feel too bad about the slight inconvenience. :rolleyes:

All I know is my track is very close (about half a thumbnail) to my thumbhole. I would measure it...but I just re-did my surfaces so I don't have any tracks right now.

Your track being close to your thumbhole is only and indication. To actually find your PAP, take a plastic spare ball and put a square of white tape about 5" to the right of your grip center. Throw the ball and watch for the tape being stationary through the first 20 or 30 feet after you throw it. If it moves, move the tape up or down, left or right until you can find the point where it doesn't move. When you find it... that's your PAP. Measure over and up or down from the grip center to get the number.