Attack of the killer 10 pins

[Phonetek]

Last night I bowled 9 games. It seemed that I couldn’t consistently buy a strike to save my life. I mean I got strikes but I just left one 10 pin after another. I tried every adjustment I could think of. It would work for a couple shots then the same old thing.

I tried a few different balls, different lines and no matter what the bowling gods weren’t having it. I counted 34 10 pin leaves in 9 games! On the upside I picked up all but 2 of them. I threw the first ball in game 10 and yep… 10 pin. I just put my stuff away, time to call it a day.

I cannot remember the last time if ever this happened to me. Hopefully it doesn’t ever happen again because it’s sucked. Where the hell were all these a couple weeks ago in that no tap when we kept leaving 8 counts? Bowling is such an odd and unpredictable sport.

[J Anderson]

At least you were making them. Not counting warm ups I dumped three or four balls in the gutter and and over corrected on another two attempts before making a couple in the third game on Thursday.

The whole league seemed to be struggling to get strikes. While it is just a fun league there are a few bowlers who can really string them when they get in the zone. No one had anything longer than a turkey that day.

[Phonetek]

Over those games I strung only a couple times 4 and five in a row once each. Most weren’t great strikes, they all came to a halt the same way. It was a tough outing, rather frustrating, just an off day.

That was the first time I actually got sick of throwing at ten pins. The only thing that kept me interested was the fact that every ball I went to throw the family to the left of me found it necessary to go up next to me. I was really working hard concentrating on extending my leg kick. Sadly I didn’t quite get it extended far enough to accomplish my goal. ;)

[Phonetek]

Truth be told I shouldn’t have bowled at all yesterday. I bowled 10 games the day before. Then right after we opened I had two pallets of bowling pins dropped off on the sidewalk. I had to bring all 52 cases down 26 steps and into the back room by myself. My shoulder was on fire!

I took some ibuprofen and felt good by the time I punched out to bowl. I was stuck there because my daughter had homecoming last night. So I sampled a couple new beers which I rarely do and felt good enough to bowl to waste some time. I am however paying for it today. Nobody to blame but myself.

[boatman37]

our league got hit with corner pins last week. I left 7 in 3 games. I typically only leave 2 or 3. Like you I tried different lines, different speeds and different balls and I wasn't the only one.

[Aslan]

I'm starting to wonder if the weather is having anything to do with it as we've been having high heat and transition to fall.

I only say that because it seems like multiple bowlers here, including myself and my teammates, are having this same issue.

I know there ARE solutions to 10-pins with ball specifications and changing lines and stuff...and me and RobM discuss that all the time on here...but last night I couldn't run anything together. Just when I thought I figured it out...there was some small adjustment that needed to be made.

It also 'might' be bowling on the same AREA of the lane. I've noticed me and 2-3 of my 5-man team teammates tend to all bowl in that 8-12 board area at the arrows...very similar speeds and rev rates. Usually, they end up having terrible game 3s and I usually do rather well....because I end up balling down and going to my skid/flip ball. So I got a ball that goes long and hits hard. They are leaving 10-pins and trying to figure out why...and even though they are better bowlers than I am...they don't understand bowling balls at ALL. None of em know what an "RG" even is. So, they just "experiment".

So, some things to think about?

- Weather? Is it changing in your area? Getting cooler and less humid? Has the center made adjustments to their oiling to account for that? Or do they oil the same regardless of season?

- New Teammates? Are you all bowling in the same part of the lane? On top of one another's line?

I'd love to start out a couple boards inside of whichever bowler on my team starts furthest left. That way, not counting the other team, I'm not as affected by their shots. BUT...given I'm more speed dominant than the other 3 bowlers...I'm usually furthest right. So, the other 3 guys are targeting 9-12 and I'm out in the 7-8 area. On nights when I have bad 3rd games...it's often because I end up experiencing fast transition...likely because I've transitioned into their area...which is completely destroyed by that point. I've thought about making a 1:2 adjustment after every shot...even if I strike...because they move THAT fast.

[RobLV1]

Yes, Aslan snd I do agree occasionally!

In looking back over this fairly short thread, I find it interesting that nowhere is there any mention of what KIND of corner pins are being left behind. A great majority of bowlers, when asked, will tell you that they are leaving ringing ten pins (or seven pins). In fact, a great, great majority of the corner pins that I see left in leagues are soft, or weak, tens. This is important, because the adjustments for weak tens are totally different than the adjustments for ringing tens. Most of the move up and back on the approach suggestions are based on old-time bowling when ringing tens were dominant.

The important thing to keep in mind is that corner pins are never accidents. They are all caused by something, and most of the causes can be overcome. If, however, they are being caused by topographic issues or bad racks, just hope you can pick them up, because they are a fact of life for all, or most, of the current set.

[Phonetek]

I'm starting to wonder if the weather is having anything to do with it as we've been having high heat and transition to fall.

I only say that because it seems like multiple bowlers here, including myself and my teammates, are having this same issue.

I know there ARE solutions to 10-pins with ball specifications and changing lines and stuff...and me and RobM discuss that all the time on here...but last night I couldn't run anything together. Just when I thought I figured it out...there was some small adjustment that needed to be made.

It also 'might' be bowling on the same AREA of the lane. I've noticed me and 2-3 of my 5-man team teammates tend to all bowl in that 8-12 board area at the arrows...very similar speeds and rev rates. Usually, they end up having terrible game 3s and I usually do rather well....because I end up balling down and going to my skid/flip ball. So I got a ball that goes long and hits hard. They are leaving 10-pins and trying to figure out why...and even though they are better bowlers than I am...they don't understand bowling balls at ALL. None of em know what an "RG" even is. So, they just "experiment".

So, some things to think about?

- Weather? Is it changing in your area? Getting cooler and less humid? Has the center made adjustments to their oiling to account for that? Or do they oil the same regardless of season?

- New Teammates? Are you all bowling in the same part of the lane? On top of one another's line?

I'd love to start out a couple boards inside of whichever bowler on my team starts furthest left. That way, not counting the other team, I'm not as affected by their shots. BUT...given I'm more speed dominant than the other 3 bowlers...I'm usually furthest right. So, the other 3 guys are targeting 9-12 and I'm out in the 7-8 area. On nights when I have bad 3rd games...it's often because I end up experiencing fast transition...likely because I've transitioned into their area...which is completely destroyed by that point. I've thought about making a 1:2 adjustment after every shot...even if I strike...because they move THAT fast.

My center is basically in the basement. It's 28 stairs to get down. Weather isn't really a huge factor. The temp doesn't vary all that much regardless of what's going on outside unless it's extreme. Nonetheless, the weather that day was pretty average to what is been for the last month.

Whatever was going on was probably to do with me more than anything else. My shoulder issue had flared up because I had to carry in a ton of new house shoes and all those cases of bowling pins.

I was probably favoring the shoulder without realizing causing my ball to roll slightly different not giving me the optimal pocket angle causing all the 10 pins. In this case I'm much quicker to blame myself rather than the bowling gods or mother nature. Sometimes we just have to eat crow and blame ourselves. I'm just hoping I didn't screw my shoulder up again to the point where in 6 months I'll be where I was at the beginning of 2020 needing another surgery. The pain isn't going away which has me concerned. That's how it started last time.

[Phonetek]

Yes, Aslan snd I do agree occasionally!

In looking back over this fairly short thread, I find it interesting that nowhere is there any mention of what KIND of corner pins are being left behind. A great majority of bowlers, when asked, will tell you that they are leaving ringing ten pins (or seven pins). In fact, a great, great majority of the corner pins that I see left in leagues are soft, or weak, tens. This is important, because the adjustments for weak tens are totally different than the adjustments for ringing tens. Most of the move up and back on the approach suggestions are based on old-time bowling when ringing tens were dominant.

The important thing to keep in mind is that corner pins are never accidents. They are all caused by something, and most of the causes can be overcome. If, however, they are being caused by topographic issues or bad racks, just hope you can pick them up, because they are a fact of life for all, or most, of the current set.

The majority were ringing 10's. There was nothing weak about them. I'm not going to blame topography because Lane 8 is actually one of my better lanes I score well on usually. I did ask the mechanic to see if the pins are on spot. No issues there. The kick back panels have recently been replaced so it's not that. I could blame it on the pins that are beat to death?

Instead I'll just be the bigger person and blame it on myself which I elaborated on with the previous post. New pins are going in soon, if I continue to have this happen then I will have to evaluate what I'm doing wrong rather than finding something other than myself to blame it on.

Who knows, it could have been a fluke one and done? It may have just been something I was doing wrong that day? Don't worry I haven't given up, I will figure it out and I will bounce back.

[boatman37]

I don't usually leave alot of 7 pins but have put a note in my phone. Can't remember where I got it or if it still applies but here it is:

Ring 7 move 1 board left (1 board right for a righty)
Flat 7 move back 1/2 step

Looking through my stats for this year so far in 15 games I have left (20) 7 pins so about 4 per night but 1 of those nights I left 7 of them. Picking them up is a different story...lol. Working on that. Last night I left 3 and they were all in the same game. Only covering about 50% of them but made an adjustment 2 weeks ago and since then 6 for 9

[Phonetek]

If I was previously striking then leave a ten pin I don't always adjust the next frame. It's always possible that I was a tad faster or slightly missed the last frame. I keep it in the back of my mind and see how the next shot goes. Overthinking is a sure way to make sure you don't strike.

[boatman37]

If I was previously striking then leave a ten pin I don't always adjust the next frame. It's always possible that I was a tad faster or slightly missed the last frame. I keep it in the back of my mind and see how the next shot goes. Overthinking is a sure way to make sure you don't strike.

Yeah same here but I do find myself giving it too many frames to confirm my suspicions. On most nights I'm not the most accurate so I usually try about 3 frames before making an adjustment. I need to get quicker at that cause that could easily be 15-20 pins lost right there depending on what I leave. Fortunately I usually get pretty good carry so even if I miss slightly I can still strike alot of those shots. Oddly I don't have the fastest speed (usually around 16.0 to16.5 at the pins) and not the highest rev rate

[Aslan]

Yes, Aslan snd I do agree occasionally!

In fact, a great, great majority of the corner pins that I see left in leagues are soft, or weak, tens. This is important, because the adjustments for weak tens are totally different than the adjustments for ringing tens. Most of the move up and back on the approach suggestions are based on old-time bowling when ringing tens were dominant.
Another fine observation. I'm not sure about the history of moving back on the approach...so I'll take your word for it...but I agree that most bowlers have no idea there's a difference between a flat 10 and a ringing 10 and most bowlers leave almost predominantly all FLAT 10s...but think they are ringing 10s.

I left ONE ringing 10 last night. It was the first one in AGES. The pin wrapped around the 10-pin then flew across the pin deck and landed on the other side. NORMALLY...the 6-pin simply falls in the gutter when I leave a 10-pin.


The important thing to keep in mind is that corner pins are never accidents. They are all caused by something, and most of the causes can be overcome. If, however, they are being caused by topographic issues or bad racks, just hope you can pick them up, because they are a fact of life for all, or most, of the current set.
Again; well said. It's not "bad luck"...there's SOMETHING causing it. The trick is finding out what it is and trying to fix it and keep it fixed long enough to run some strikes together. Now, 7-pins (for a righty)...or that rare ringing 10-pin that I almost never get...no sense adjusting off that. A 7-pin is usually just a bad rack for a righty...or pins that need to be replaced.

[J Anderson]

Another fine observation. I'm not sure about the history of moving back on the approach...so I'll take your word for it...but I agree that most bowlers have no idea there's a difference between a flat 10 and a ringing 10 and most bowlers leave almost predominantly all FLAT 10s...but think they are ringing 10s.

I left ONE ringing 10 last night. It was the first one in AGES. The pin wrapped around the 10-pin then flew across the pin deck and landed on the other side. NORMALLY...the 6-pin simply falls in the gutter when I leave a 10-pin.


Again; well said. It's not "bad luck"...there's SOMETHING causing it. The trick is finding out what it is and trying to fix it and keep it fixed long enough to run some strikes together. Now, 7-pins (for a righty)...or that rare ringing 10-pin that I almost never get...no sense adjusting off that. A 7-pin is usually just a bad rack for a righty...or pins that need to be replaced.

I’m not sure that I agree with you on the 7 pin. On the one hand I can’t remember seeing a righty leave two or more 7 pins in a row. That would support your bad rack theory. On the other hand, it could similar to a pocket 7-10 except the bowler got lucky and the 10 went down.

[boomer]

The important thing to keep in mind is that corner pins are never accidents. They are all caused by something, and most of the causes can be overcome. If, however, they are being caused by topographic issues or bad racks, just hope you can pick them up, because they are a fact of life for all, or most, of the current set.

Absolutely!

and even "ringing" 10 pin leaves - often they aren't really ringing 10. Instead of using a name - describe instead what the 6 pin is doing because, honestly, that's what the 10 pin leave is all about.

Then trace it to the 3 pin - because that's what the 6 pin is all about.

What I've noticed, when I leave 10-pins, is that it's WHERE in the pocket I'm hitting. Too deep, the 3 pin drives back, cutting the 6 out and around the 10. It may FLY around or it may slide and drop in - it's the same thing. The 6 gets cut (like in pool) - it MAY bounce into the 10 but I take that as a warning . . . the 6 pin is still not really hitting the 10.

[Aslan]

I’m not sure that I agree with you on the 7 pin. On the one hand I can’t remember seeing a righty leave two or more 7 pins in a row. That would support your bad rack theory. On the other hand, it could similar to a pocket 7-10 except the bowler got lucky and the 10 went down.

If you watch consistent RHers (not me)...you'll see them rarely leave 7-pins or pocket 7-10s. And when they do, if you could back it up to before they threw the ball...it's likely it was a bad rack. Which.....is why you rarely see it.

10-pins (for righties) happen ALL THE TIME...and for a few varying reasons...pretty much related to the how the ball hits the 3-pin and then how it trips the 6-pin....and how that fails to affect the 10-pin.

But to carry a 10-pin on a weak hit...but NOT carry a 7-pin...THEN adjust off that weak hit...you're going to mess up the 10-pin. Righties need to ignore the 7-pin and lefties ignore the 10-pin. Make your adjustments off the pin you can control.

NOW...IF...IF...you leave a LOT of the wrong pin. For example, there is a pair at my center...closest to the interior wall...lanes #1 and #2...where I seem to leave a LOT of 7-pins ON ONE LANE. An uncanny amount of 7-pins on lane #1. If that is happening...then you need to pay more attention to your rack before you throw the ball and if something is out of whack...get a re-rack. Sometimes a pinsetter just gets messed up on a pair...and it places a pin badly every time. Professionals know to look for that stuff before they throw...but dummies like me just make sure I have 10 pins and go up there and throw.

But I would argue a person can discount corner pins opposite their dominant hand. You have enough to worry about with your OWN pin...let the other guy worry about his/hers.

[boomer]

We actually see at least one pocket 7-10 per week, so not rare, and while it easily could be a bad rack it's not something we can easily observe so not something we can blame it on.

[RobLV1]

I bowled on a pair with two bad racks, horrible on the left lane, and just a little off on the right lane. Within three games between two three-man teams there were 11 seven-ten splits; 9 of them on the left lane!

[Aslan]

To illustrate my (and Rob's) point...

Even though my spare shooting has suffered as of late...the single pins I leave are rather consistent and illustrated below by pointing out the pin(s) I left most often that night (last fall season):

3/4 - 2x
7 - 3x
10 - 2x
10 - 3x
6/7/10 - 2x
10 - 2x
6/8 - 2x
10 - 3x
10 - 3x
10 - 4x
10 - 3x
10 - 3x
7 - 2x
3/7/9/10 - 1x
4 - 3x
10 - 3x
10 - 3x
2/4/9/10 - 2x
10 - 4x
3/5/7/9/10 - 1x
4 - 2x
10 - 4x
10 - 4x
7 - 3x
4/5/6/9 - 2x
10 - 4x
10 - 3x
10 - 2x
10 - 4x
10 - 6x
10 - 5x

Now given how those nights...where I left primarily 7-pins...were spaced out the way they were...I'm betting that was the ONE PAIR that had the one lane that kept setting the 7-pin just slightly off.

Now, I tried to see if the times I left a 7-10 corresponded to the times I left mostly 7-pins and...well...I NEVER left a 7-10 last fall season. I left a 4-7-10 a couple times and a Big 4 a couple times...and I left a 6-7-10 several times. But, I never left a 7-10...much less a pocket 7-10.

My theory is...and this is just a theory...

A pocket 7-10 SHOULD be rare because from a statistical standpoint...TWO things must go wrong simultaneously. So, in terms of probability...it's like flipping two coins and having them both be heads versus just one of them.

Not only do you need to hit the pocket in a way that leaves the 10-pin...and there are 3-5 ways that can happen as a righty...but you ALSO need the 7-pin to be out of place...at least slightly.

If the 7-pin is in the proper position...no matter what mistake you make or "bad luck" you have with the 10-pin...the pins will likely take it out when you hit the pocket on the right side. I left a 10-pin 75 times last fall. I left a 7-pin 18 times. I took 994 shots at full racks and 7.5% resulted in a 10-pin while 1.8% resulted in a 7-pin. I actually was more likely to leave a single 4-pin (2.6%), 6-pin (2.3%), or 9-pin (1.9%) than I was to leave a single 7-pin.

So, is it "nearly impossible to leave a pocket 7-10"? Of course not! It's actually quite easy and very explainable. It's also very possible to flip two coins and have them both turn up heads or both turn up tails. But, I would contend that if the 7-pin is spotted correctly...it is very difficult for a righty not to take it out with a pocket hit. Maybe it's more common for the high rev guys with weird angles into the pocket that I obviously don't have to worry about.

But, based on this data...the odds of me leaving a 7-pin is 1.8% and the odds of me leaving a 10-pin (for any number of reasons) is 7.5%. Thus the odds of me leaving a 7-10 is (0.018 x 0.075) = 0.14% which means I should leave a pocket 7-10 once every 741 shots.

[RobLV1]

It's actually not the seven pin being off-spot that causes seven pins for righties, as well as pocket seven-tens. An off-spot seven pin is easy to see. It's usually either the four pin or the five pin that is off-spot towards the front. This you can't see, but you certainly see the results pretty fast.

[Aslan]

Regardless of which one it is...it's usually a pin out of position...and not something you adjust for because you are doing something wrong...the way you would a 10-pin (for RHers) is what I was saying.

It's not a pin I concern myself with. 4-pins and 9-pins....I know what to do. 8-pins are an indicator. 2-pins and 5-pins are sign you're very off...very hard to leave those if you are anywhere near flush when you hit the pocket unless your ball is just completely dead when it does. And a 3-pin or 6-pin are nearly impossible to leave if you're anywhere near the pocket.

Since, as a RHer, you're not going to leave a pocket 3-pin or pocket 6-pin...the best single pin to leave is probably a single 9-pin.

Why?

A 4-pin usually means the same thing as a 9-pin...but it's slightly harder to hit because it's not in the middle.

A 7-pin, as stated before, means nothing. So, while it's annoying and harder to convert (typically)...the advantage is you can ignore it and move along.

If leaving a 9-pin is an automatic 1:1 left...then an 8-pin would be a 1:1 right...BUT...ya don't usually want to move right. So, an 8-pin is a good pin to leave because it's a warning that 10-pins are on their way if you don't make an adjustment...and it's in the center of the lane...easier to convert than a 10-pin.

A 2-pin or 5-pin mean you're hitting weak...but VERY weak...or at such a bad entry angle that you can't even carry a pin that should easily fall. So, while you know what you likely need to do, it's a more drastic correction.

The 10-pin is the worst because it's statistically the hardest to pick up/convert...AND...there are about 5 different reasons why you might of left it...which may result in you needing to do any 1 of 4 different adjustments.

So, if I leave a single-pin and it's a 4-pin, 9-pin, or 7-pin...I'm relieved. I know that I need to make a certain move or no move at all.

If it's a 8-pin, 2-pin, 5-pin, or 10-pin...I'm coming in weak and I have to figure out why. Do I move right? Do I adjust my angle? Do I try to get the ball out further on the lane through a vertical targeting adjustment? Do I move inside? Do I move inside AND adjust my vertical target? Do I change balls? Do I need to make any of the aformentioned adjustments when I change balls?

Given how often I leave a 2-pin, 5-pin, 8-pin, or 10-pin...I need make the decision above...at least once every 10 frames. I say "at least"...because that doesn't take into account shots that struck where you notice deflection.