The Surfacing Dilemma

[Aslan]

So, one of my teammates has been very insistent that I add surface to my bowling balls.

Now, there's no real reason to do this and a lot of reasons not to. This teammate is a good bowler, but he doesn't know much about bowling ball technology, modern bowling, specifications, etc... BUT...

1) He's not giving up on this...and has become all but threatening about it. I'm at the point where I almost would rather just surface all the balls to 800 Siaair just to get him to shut up.

2) I've been struggling lately...mightily. Even when my leg/Achilles is feeling okay, I can't seem to find my form. I honestly don't want to continue bowling if I'm going to be a sub-180 bowler. So, even though I think this is largely nonsense...why not give it a try?

3) The anchor throws an Incognito...sanded to 2000...and he essentially throws up the track. He doesn't have much more (or less) hand than I do...and I don't have much more speed than he does...so if he can roll for decent scores without the ball burning out...maybe I'm wrong in my assumptions?

Thoughts?

[RobLV1]

Simply ask him what is lacking in his life that makes the surface of YOUR bowling balls so important to him. There is nothing worse than unsolicited advice!

[Phonetek]

If you think it will help you then do it, if not then don’t. It’s not anyone’s business what you do or don’t do to your equipment as long as you’re doing it legally. Don’t let others dictate what you must do.

Tell him if he wants to pay your weekly fees then you’ll do what he wants, if not… he can get out of your face! End of story.

[Aslan]

It's really bothersome...because, if he was open to a conversation about it...I could point out that my struggles are due to:

1) My inconsistencies related to my current injury where I'm struggling to figure out how much force I can put on my push away leg and how low I get on my slide knee. Both of those affect my balance and release and power in my shot and rev rate.

2) Many of my struggles were the result of bad shots, bad timing, etc... I'd miss by 3-5 boards...I'd pull shots, etc... Then I shoot 50% at spares? Missing only 3 out of 9 of my corner pins! So, then I gotta deal with a teammate that is saying my problems would be solved if I just had a ball with surface on it?? It makes no sense. :confused:

3) I already tried what he's asking me to try...and it DIDN'T WORK. Over the summer...when the majority of my team was taking the summer off...I was trying to work on my game and figure out a new arsenal. I had the Optimus Solid surfaced to 2000 Abralon and Yeah Baby Sinful (YBS) surfaced to 1000 Abralon. The Optimus Solid was NOT strong enough to move inside the oil line at 2000 and it was burning up and hitting weak if I tried to play the track. That led me to use the YBS up the track on fresh...which had such a HIGH RG (2.67)...that I had to sand it to 1000 just to get it to move at my ball speed...and when it finally moved...it also hit weak.

4) I CAN'T surface my current arsenal the way he wants me to. The Grudge Hybrid is too strong of a ball. I used to use the Grudge Hybrid at 4000 and the ball was too strong. So, I decided to finish it with Royal Compound to keep it from burning up. And even with that finish, I still haven't been able to use it the last two nights because it is just too strong.

But like I said. He's using a VERY strong Incognito...he has a similar release and speed...and he surfaces it to 2000...plays just inside the track...similar line to mine....so "maybe" I just surface the Grudge to 4000 and Optimus Solid to 2000 just to placate the teammate and get him off my back. I dunno.

[Phonetek]

Worry less about his opinions and pay more attention to what you think. If you want to try that surface then do it and go throw some practice games. If you don’t like what you see then put the surface back where you had it. That way you can say you tried it and didn’t like it so he can shut up. Or don’t do anything and tell him to shut up anyway. This isn’t exactly a “dilemma” as you say.

[Aslan]

This isn’t exactly a “dilemma” as you say.

Up until now, thats kind've the approach I've taken. However, last night he made the comment, "next week he needs to either surface his bowling balls or I'm going to surface his (insert expletive for bum)".

Now, this 'threat' isn't something I'm all that concerned with in terms of my safety. Despite my recent physical struggles, I'm younger and a bit bigger than this bowler. He's a bit more "bark" than "bite". However, the 'threat' did upset me...and I'm not easily upset. And when I got upset...and then my other teammate started playing his little games with his playing cards...thats when I kind've lost my cool and said something to the effect of, "my team is a bunch of (insert expletive for male genitalia)".

Then, after the bowling was over...the person obsessed with my bowling ball surfaces more calmly said, "you really need to add some surface to your bowling balls." To which I replied, "Well, I gotta do something...because I can't keep bowling like this."

So, while I totally agree with you that I'm under no obligation to ablige this guy and his "surfacing demands"...it's at the point where I either give in or have to face this week in and week out. If I bowl well, he doesn't have any ammunition. But, when I can't break 500...I'm an easy target.

It's like there's blood in the water. I've felt it before. You start to struggle and her comes the folks with their advice and their opinions and "all you need to do is THIS....or you just need a different ball...or, have you tried THIS?" Everything from "drink more" to "relax" to "focus more" to "focus less". Everyone wants to help by giving you their magic cure. This time...it's surfacing my bowling balls.

Which...for anyone that understands modern bowling ball reaction...makes no sense. I have a ball (the Grudge Hybrid)...that I'm throwing in practice up the 8-9 board, hitting the pocket consistently, and leaving obvious flat 10-pins. I have 3 options...but NO TIME left in practice to determine which option is best:

1) Make a 1:2 move left with the Grudge Hybrid and try to get a little more in the oil to conserve some energy into the pocket.

2) Make my vertical target out about 2 feet to try to reduce the time the ball is in contact with the lane surface...thus having the same effect as in #1...but allowing me to play the same line.

3) Ball down to the Optimus Solid, move my vertical target in about 1-5 feet to adjust for the relative weakness in the Optimus Solid compared to the Grudge Hybrid, and throw on the same line.

If I had more time in practice, I'd try to move inside 1:2 with the Grudge...and if I missed right and left a 2-pin combination (or something like that)...then I'd move back to the original line and feel confident that the Optimus Solid is the better ball to start with. But, you only have 7.5 minutes and there's 5 bowlers practicing.

Myn point to the above example is...IF the dilemma is a ball burning up and not carrying a 10-pin...is having more surface on that ball going to HELP...or HURT that situation? The answer is: HURT. Now, 'perhaps'...adding surface would allow me to start further left...'perhaps'. But, I've already tried that this past summer...and I learned that you can't surface a ball into a stronger ball. The Optimus Solid is what it is. Adding a 2000 surface to it isn't going to make it some heavy oil monster that will allow a speed dominant bowler to play 5th arrow.

[Phonetek]

Then my advise to you, is if you want to give in… give it a try. If you Bowl worse then say “This is what I get for listening to you! Happy now?” If it works then say “Thank you “. Or as I said before just keep doing what you doing and tell him/them to “Stick it!”

You’re obviously more passive than I’ve come to be. It comes from many years of dealing with morons. I used to try to appease people. You’ll realize eventually that don’t get you anywhere and start telling people to stick it too. I can guarantee your situation wouldn’t have gone on for weeks if they tried that with me. LOL

[boatman37]

I look at bowling as my fun time. If I don't have fun then why be there? I'd find a new team if there is that much friction (no pun intended...lol).

That said, Maybe try adding surface to 1 ball that way if it doesn't work you have a fallback. Maybe he is right or maybe he thinks he is a know-it-all but no harm in giving it a try. If you are struggling that much then you have nothing to lose. Maybe his thought is to add surface and move inside?
Losing doesn't help matters either. My team all gets along great but we aren't really having fun getting beat on every week. We all know it isn't one persons fault so no finger pointing.

[Aslan]

I can guarantee your situation wouldn’t have gone on for weeks if they tried that with me. LOL
And that kind've "ticks" me off as much as anything. He doesn't pull this nonsense with other bowlers. For all of last season and most of this season...I wasn't the worst average on the team. Yet, this guy didn't 'demand' anything of that player. That player...who makes ball changes 'willy nilly' and refuses to accept that he needs to change the bowling balls he throws now that his speed has fallen 3-5mph after an injury.


Maybe he is right or maybe he thinks he is a know-it-all but no harm in giving it a try.
Logically and based on the laws of physics...he can't be right. Surfacing a ball, thrown over friction, doesn't help it carry. If it does...then the entire bowling ball industry is wrong...and we have to re-think at least one of Newton's Laws of Motion.


If you are struggling that much then you have nothing to lose. Maybe his thought is to add surface and move inside?

Maybe. I don't know. I don't think he knows. He also gets upset when I make ball changes. Last time he got upset I challenged him by asking him directly, "Why do YOU FEEL I should continue to throw that ball when I just threw it...same line, hit my target, good release, and left an 8-pin due to deflection?" His response was to stare at me as if to respond, "I wasn't expecting you to actually make me defend my opinion." He then went onto tell me that my last shot wasn't a good shot and thats why I left the 8-pin....even though me...the bowler who threw it...knew I hit my mark...knew how it felt off my hand...knew I was balanced at the foul line, etc...

In other words, he is a bowler that keeps throwing a ball when he is hitting the pocket and doesn't look for signs of deflection. Then, when he starts leaving 10-pins...he figures it must have been a "bad shot" or "these damn lanes". Since I tend to try and make a ball change based on what I'm seeing downlane...I'm wrong.

What I'm a little unsure on is...let's say I appease him. Just because of the combination of my current struggles and wanting to shut him up.

Right now I have:

The Grudge Hybrid at: 800/1500/3000/Royal Compound

and

The Optimus Solid at: 800/2000/Step 2

Now, I'm not a "surfacing expert". But, what I've seen online is that the Royal Compound is 1500 grit and the Step 2 is 320-1500. I've never really understood this...because surfacing to 1500 with a SiaAir pad looks a LOT different than finishing with compound. And, the reason this matters is...if I APPEASE this moron by just surfacing the Grudge to 3000 and Optimus to 2000...it seems like I'd be surfacing to a SMOOTHER surface than the compound???

I'm almost tempted to surface both balls to 800 SiaAir...start up 8-9...and prove my point. Kind've like "what do I have to lose"...nothing. Well, what does the team have to lose? Nothing. If the anchor is going to bully people into doing stupid things because he doesn't know what he's taking about...then the consequence is even lower scores. Actually, it'll take pressure OFF me to bowl well...help my handicap...and I can just practice my spare shooting next week.

Anybody with surfacing understand the difference between 1500 matte and 1500 with a compound??

[Ryster]

For a teammate to make comments like that over a ball surface change is ridiculous. Personally, I wouldn't change anything. That just reinforces his behavior and makes it seem like he got his way.

I would probably also give my 2 weeks notice, pay 2 weeks, and quit. No one should have to tolerate that at bowling. Losing the 2 weeks of dues would be well worth not having to deal with that garbage. Find another team on another night that doesn't act like that. It's just bowling and is supposed to be a diversion.

[boatman37]

A guy on my team asked a couple of weeks ago why I changed balls after rolling a 240-something. I told him cause I started seeing deflection towards the end then the first few frames of the next game I left corner pins. He said 'oh'. No argument, he just didn't know.

[Phonetek]

That also could be what they are trying to do, make him quit. If that’s the case then I’d definitely not do anything they ask and make it my goal to annoy the crap out of them. I’d also have fun doing just that.

See, I didn’t realize that Aslan was such a nice guy so my tactics probably aren’t his style. I’m a nice guy too but I’ve dealt with more asshats in my lifetime than many. Certainly more that him. Being a telephone repair man for as many years as I was, I literally met multiple every single day. Now working at bowling center I meet the same asshats but add alcohol.

That experience has given me very thick skin. I can take everything that they can dish out and more. Only now I can give it back two fold. I have a bigger arsenal of sarcasm, insults and lack of fear than they have bowling balls. I don’t take crap for very long. Those guys wouldn’t stand a chance.

I’m not saying it would come to blows, hopefully not as I’m not a fighting expert. If it did, THAT I’d likely lose plus it’s a felony. LOL However there are plenty of things I could say or do that would have them chewing their mustache probably screwing up their game at the very least. Then when it did I’d be like “Hey, maybe you should try a different surface on your ball?” That’s just me though.

Obviously Aslan I don’t recommend to deal with them as I would. I wouldn’t want anything bad to happen to you because of me. It’s easy giving advice without actually being there. However using a few choice words and standing up telling them to worry about their own game and that their advice is NOT welcome would be something to consider. Say it in your own probably kind way but just get that point across. Maybe just maybe they will respect you enough after to listen. If not then consider leaving the league or switching teams.

You may ramble a lot, so do I. I don’t know you personally but one thing I do know from that rambling is you want to be a better bowler. The longer this stuff goes on, the longer that’s going to take. One way or another you do need to either step up and do something about it or walk away from them so you can accomplish your goal. Fight or flight my friend, it has been going on since cavemen have walked the planet. The caveman that decided to try to reason with the T-Rex got eaten. Whatever you decide I hope for the best.

[Aslan]

I would probably also give my 2 weeks notice, pay 2 weeks, and quit. No one should have to tolerate that at bowling. Losing the 2 weeks of dues would be well worth not having to deal with that garbage. Find another team on another night that doesn't act like that. It's just bowling and is supposed to be a diversion.

That's a possibility. I mean, it's too late to join another fall/winter team at this point. Especially given my leg/achilles injury and my game being in the toilet.

Right now I'm looking at 3 choices (no particular order):

A) Surface both balls to 800 and try to prove a point.

B) Leave the surfaces alone.

C) Give my two weeks notice.

PROS/CONS:

A: The PRO is maybe seeing that he's wrong about surfacing will get him to realize he doesn't know everything and the issue will die without further drama. The CON is that if I actually bowl well (physically)...despite the surfacing...then I might as well spend the rest of the season asking this guy what surfaces to use and what ball changes to make because my autonomy is gone.

B: The PRO is that I can just keep pushing forward, confident in my understanding, and work on the physical problems I'm having. The CON is this will effectively end my relationship with the team. The anchor and captain are the team and I doubt the anchor will be on the team with me next fall if I tell him I'm not gonna surface the balls, disagree with his assessment, and thats that. He's just one of those kinds of guys that doesn't "agree to disagree". So, it will a long season...if if I CAN fix my game...having one teammate that is gonna give me the cold shoulder for the rest of the season.

C. The PROs are that my leg will heal up and it'll end the aggravation. The CONs are multiple. The captain won't want it. He'll try to keep me from leaving. I won't be able to bowl...which is the one thing I look forward to each week. My game will continue to suffer. Last time I took several months off my average dropped 20 pins. AND...given where my game is now...I think I need professional help to get back on track. And thats gonna cost $$$. I can't qualify for Camp Bakkes...and that would be $4,000 in total expenses. 2-3 days of instruction at the IRTC in Texas would run about the same...when you add up all the costs...about $4,000. So...I may need to start a piggy bank and put money in it every week, month, etc until I can hit that mark. And that means weekly bowling will need to go on a hiatus so I can sock that money away.

[RobLV1]

A: The PRO is maybe seeing that he's wrong about surfacing will get him to realize he doesn't know everything and the issue will die without further drama. The CON is that if I actually bowl well (physically)...despite the surfacing...then I might as well spend the rest of the season asking this guy what surfaces to use and what ball changes to make because my autonomy is gone.


Kinda looks like A is your best choice. You have nothing to lose. If it doesn't work, then he'll shut up about it. If it does work, maybe asking him what surfaces to use isn't such a bad thing. Keep in mind that I have several years of experience in dealing with you both online and in person. In that time I've learned one thing: your autonomy rarely works in your favor, and it often kept you from solving whatever problem you were dealing with.

[Aslan]

Kinda looks like A is your best choice. You have nothing to lose. If it doesn't work, then he'll shut up about it. If it does work, maybe asking him what surfaces to use isn't such a bad thing. Keep in mind that I have several years of experience in dealing with you both online and in person. In that time I've learned one thing: your autonomy rarely works in your favor, and it often kept you from solving whatever problem you were dealing with.

Thats kinda what I'm thinking.

The only "issue" with this 'situation' is:

While my 'autonomy' may not have propelled me to PBA50 stardom...most of that is my physical limitations. My timing, release, poor spare shooting, lack of an inside game, etc... And one thing that I feel has been a positive for me (versus most bowlers) is that I'm very open to suggestions and assistance concerning my physical game. Most bowlers resist coaching...I've embraced coaching and had coaching from multiple highly qualified sources. Most bowlers ignore internet suggestions/conversations...I participate regularly. While I didn't renew my bowler's journal subscription...mainly because I just never needed up having the time to read the articles...I regularly read bowling ball.com's tips that come into my inbox.

So, I think it's more accurate to describe me as someone that still is a work in progress when it comes to the physical elements of bowling...someone that needs significant work...but someone willing to listen and be coached.

Now...and here's the issue...on the "technical" side of the game...I still have much to learn...BUT...I'm confident that I know more than most of the people I bowl with or against on any given night. For example, despite bowling with 4 guys that have been bowling since the 1980s (I started in 2014)...they;

- don't know what an "RG" is.
- don't know why they make ball changes.
- they don't understand how you can read a ball's path through the pin deck to determine a ball's future strike potential.
- they don't understand that a ball can "lose energy" as oil is removed from the lanes.
- they don't understand the concept of 'moving left' to stay in the oil.

And thats the problem. YOU (RobM) are an expert in ball motion and modern bowling. You understand ball specifications. You understand how surface affects ball motion. While we disagree on some issues related to strategy and arsenal progressions and chaos theories...at the end of the day...I think we agree on most fundamental issues concerning bowling ball specifications. To allow THIS GUY to dictate when I should make ball changes and what surface I should use....you're going to get answers like:

ME: "I think I need to ball down. The ball went through the nose, I moved left, now it's deflecting."
HIM: "Absolutely not! You've thrown 4 out of 5 shots that were strikes...just keep throwing that ball...you'll be fine."

ME: "The ball with that surface is forcing me inside of 11...but with my speed dominance and that ball's overall weakness...it's not making the turn. But if I move outside of 11 and loft it...it's still losing too much energy to carry the 10. I think it a better strategy to lose some of the surface and try to play just outside the oil line."

HIM: "Nope. I surfaced my ball to 2000 and it does great (first two games...then it burns up and he throws a fit and blames the center for their lousy pattern)...so everyone should follow my lead and surface their equipment."

Realize...in that first example...knowing YOU...I gotta think you would disagree with his advice.

Also, in that second example, whether you agree or disagree with him or me...you must realize that he's basing his advice on nothing. Worse that nothing...he's basing it on him throwing a very different ball (Incognito)...at a slightly lower ball speed....with slightly more hand. Since he knows virtually NOTHING about bowling balls...he doesn't understand that there is more to a bowling ball's movement than just surface. He's neglecting core, differential, coverstock, manufacturer, age of technology, etc...

He believes that if I surface my Optimus Solid...that it will behave the same as his Incognito. Anyone that understands bowling balls KNOWS that is not going to happen. The Optimus Solid is not as strong as the Incognito. He's throwing a stronger ball, at a slightly lower speed, with slightly more hand....but he doesn't factor any of that into his "equation". To him, it's just the "magic of surface".

And he doesn't even surface properly. I take my balls down to 800...6-sided wet-sanded...then go up in steps depending on what I want. He just dry-sands using a 2000 Abralon pad and calls it a day. :confused:

But...you're right...option #1 is the best option in terms of PROs/CONs. Best upside with Least downside.

[boomer]

my son-in-law's grandfather is like that. He's old-school, which is the only school that should be allowed according to him. I get away with it because I'm more traditional with my style, but he's hugely derogatory especially to my son-in-law.

I've pulled my (vocal) punches for family peace, but he's affecting my SIL and that's affecting me so he's going to get challenged very soon - with a smile on my face and polite words, but questions into the physics of bowling (which I KNOW he doesn't understand) and then before he can stumble an answer, another question as to the root cause of a specific problem (which I KNOW he can't answer) and then before he can stumble an answer to THAT, another . . . and another.


BTW - phone repair guy? What the heck is that? LOL

[Phonetek]

BTW - phone repair guy? What the heck is that? LOL

Hence the reason I now work in bowling centers. LOL My previous career no longer exists. Today that title describes someone who replaces cell phone screens or tosses one dropped in a toilet into a bag of rice to dry out.

It was a great gig while it lasted. Too bad those of us who installed switches to cell towers and fiber optics didn’t realize we were actually working ourselves out of a career to extinction.

[Aslan]

Part II

So, I surfaced the Optimus Hybrid to 800 this morning before work. I was on my way to an assignment and I started seeing texts from the team. They usually just text nonsense back and forth on the day we bowl. Well, one of the texts...even though I wasn't participating in the conversation...was "this guy" AGAIN stating that he was going to "resurface my REAR if I didn't show up with a surfaced ball."

So, I decided to chime in and stated that I HAD surface my ball that morning to 800 and was ready to go! Well, apparently, my teammates didn't even know you 'could' resurface a ball to 800...so they were quite surprised. "This guy", in particular, responded with a LONG text about how surfacing them to 800 is going to make em just as bad as polishing them and I needed to surface them to 1500 or 2000. He then went on to say that some coach at a small university told him surfacing a ball to 2000 was optimal. I responded that I already surfaced the ball to 800 and wasn't planning on going home before bowling. The guy responded that he would bring 2000 pads with him so I could surface the ball to 2000.

Now, realize, the other people on the text were trying to change the subject...but later in the afternoon...'the guy' AGAIN posted about surfacing the balls to 2000. I mean, it was getting to the point that I figured there was at least a 35% chance things would implode tonight...because this guy was already on my nerves..and was seemingly going out of his way to get further on my nerves.

to be continued....

[Aslan]

Part II (cont.)

So, I get to the lanes...do my leg stretches and tape up my calf. I put the sanded ball on the table and wait for the rest of the team to arrive.

Eventually, "the guy" gets there and sees the ball. He's surprised and doesn't think the ball is actually surfaced to 800. He asks if I used a fresh sanding pad or not.

Now, realize...the main reason for his question is that I "wet sand" using a 6-sided sanding method. I have every grade of sanding pad from 180 to 4000...Storm compounds, Brunswick compound, and resin polish. I have a semi-professional 2-speed ball spinner. 'This guy' essentially uses a low-end spinner and "dry sands" his balls.

So, he went on to suggest that I show the balls in practice and if they reacted too much...I could hit them with 2000 Abralon pads that he had with him. I agreed.

Practice went pretty much as I predicted.

The Optimus Solid at 800...up the 8-9 didn't react much...and I couldn't carry the 10-pin. I actually had to move 1:2 right to straighten out the line...because there was so little movement downlane. You'd expect a sanded ball...especially at 800...to react violently in the dry...BUT:

1) Surface doesn't make a ball hook MORE...it makes a ball hook SOONER.

2) By the time the ball hit the pocket...there was no energy left...especially up the 7-9 boards.

BUT...I was committed to at least ONE GAME using this "sanded miracle".

For results...see "Aslan's Scores (of the non-lady kind)" thread...

[boomer]

Surface CAN make a ball hook more - it typically also make it hook sooner. It will also, as you said, burn up energy. You have to look at both the "wheel" and the "road"

If the "road" is flooded and wet, a slick tire is not going to move until it hits the traction at the end, and it's going to snap and deliver its energy in a hard to control fashion. A grooved tire is going to grab traction throughout the length. It will lose more energy throughout, but it will be controllable throughout.

If the "road" is dry (or wet in a shorter length) - the slick tire is going to be more efficient. It will snap, but not as much and there will be recovery time. A grooved tire will burn EVERYTHING and not have anything left at the end.

Sorry for my rally-driving analogy. It's what I used to do (97 Neon ACR in the California Rally Series) and it has really helped me clear up how balls work on the lanes. The analogy isn't perfect (no analogy is) but it's close enough to really clear things up for me.

[RobLV1]

The discussion about one ball hooking more than another is always predicated on how the amount of hook is calibrated. If you use the traditional method of counting the number of boards covered, then yes, one ball hooks more than another. If, on the other hand, you use the angle of the change of direction, then no, that angle is generated by the release of the bowler. Number of boards is affected by when then ball hooks, while the angle of the change of direction is the only true indicator of how much it hooks.

[Aslan]

The INTERESTING (to bowling nerds like me) think to me...about this debacle...and maybe Rob can shed some light on this or give his 2 cents....

But, when I was throwing the sanded Optimus Solid (symmetric, solid, 2.48 RG, 0.048 diff., 800 Siaair)...I started standing left foot on 19 and aiming 8-9. So, even on a wider THS...I was outside the oil line. I ended up having to move 1:2 RIGHT...to straighten out the angle of entry to the pocket...AND...I had to loft the ball by changing my vertical target to about the midpoint of the lanes.

Now, in Games 2 & 3...I switched to the Pyramid Force Pearl (assymetric, pearl, 2.53 RG, 0.051 diff., surfaced to 2000 Abralon and then polished with resin polish). I ended up having to move my targeting back down closer to the arrows...and needed to move quite a bit left. On the left lane I was standing left foot on 25 and aiming at 12 and on the right lane I was standing with my left foot on 27 and was aiming at 13.

So...to sum up the lateral movement...we're talking 3-5 boards left with my eyes and 4-6 with my feet. Not creating a great deal more angle...a little bit. But if you consider a THS oil line is almost always going to start by 11...I was moving INSIDE the oil line by late Game 2 and all of Game 3.

The "results" were also interesting:

Game 1: Pretty much all pocket hits...maybe 1-2 Brooklyn strikes: 5 strikes, 3 10-pins, 2 5-pins, 1 7-pin.

Game 2: 6 strikes, 1 5-pin, 1 7-pin, 1 3-pin (pulled shot), 1 9-pin (telling me I needed to move left).

Game 3: 7 strikes, 1 split (telling me I needed to move further left), 1 1-3-6-9 (pulled shot), 1 4-pin (telling me I need to move left), 1 10-pin.

If I'm looking at those results...and feel free to disagree:

A) I see a LOT of missed opportunities to carry in Game 1 when I was leaving pins that are evidence of balls hitting the pocket lacking energy (10s, 5s, maybe 7s).

B) In Games 2 and 3, the spares left tend to be more related to either bad physical shots (pulling shots) or are leaves that are evidence of transition (going through the nose, 4s, and 9s).

So if SURFACE is supposed to help me play in the oil...why did I need to move right and straighten out my line with a surfaced ball?

Likewise, if a polished ball is too slick to play 'in the oil', why when I balled down did I need to start rapidly moving left into the oil?

Could it be, maybe, that I was correct in my initial assumption..based on throwing the Optimus Solid all summer with a 1500 surface on it as my Ball #1...that you can't make a ball stronger by surfacing it? The Optimus Solid is a weaker ball and I don't have the hand to make it perform well in the oil. Surfacing the heck out of it isn't going to turn it into a different ball. The Force Pearl...a much STRONGER ball. I can polish it so it doesn't burn up in the transitioned lanes so I can use it later in matches...but I can't stay out in the track all night and pretend that the polish magically turns it into a Storm Mix.

Or am I off base?

[RobLV1]

"Game 1: Pretty much all pocket hits...maybe 1-2 Brooklyn strikes: 5 strikes, 3 10-pins, 2 5-pins, 1 7-pin."

Kinda seems like game one featured a low RG ball with too much surface, playing in the dirt where it was rolling out real early leaving weak 10's, 5 pins, and a seven pin.

Once you moved left and changed to a ball designed to hit the pins with some integrity, you had better results. You just went from a horrible line with too much ball, to a good line with the right ball. You really need to stop thinking that oil is your enemy. It's not! In modern bowling, oil is your friend... it helps the ball retain it's energy for the pins where it's needed.

[Aslan]

But why did I need to move right with the first ball?

Thats where my "stronger/weaker" comes into play.

If oil = good...and sanded = better in oil...then the first ball should have been the bee's knees. But, it wasn't. I actually had to move right 1:2 because it wouldn't make the turn.

Now, in fairness...I wasn't really in the oil with it when it wasn't making the turn...I was up 8-9. But, the Force Pearl made the turn (and the some) up 8-9...forcing me all the way into 12-13. So, Force Pearl = "stronger ball" than Optimus Solid?

"AND"...you can't sand the Optimus Solid to make it into a Force Pearl. Right?

[boatman37]

Just a guess but was the ball rolling out? I have had them not hook before because there was so much surface that once it his friction it just rolled end over end. At first I was confused thinking moving right was the solution but ended up being too much surface for that part of the lane.

[RobLV1]

It wouldn't "make the turn" because there was so much friction out there in the dry that your end-over-end type of roll never produced enough sideways energy to get the ball to hook. You are operating under the assumption that there is oil from ten to ten on all house shots. That is not always the case. Once you switched to the Force Pearl, you found enough side rotation to equal the forward momentum and allow the ball to hook. Then you had to move into more oil to control that hook. This is where your weak ball / strong ball strategy is flawed. It's not weak ball, strong ball, it's right ball, wrong ball. Does this make sense?

[Aslan]

It wouldn't "make the turn" because there was so much friction out there in the dry that your end-over-end type of roll never produced enough sideways energy to get the ball to hook. You are operating under the assumption that there is oil from ten to ten on all house shots. That is not always the case. Once you switched to the Force Pearl, you found enough side rotation to equal the forward momentum and allow the ball to hook. Then you had to move into more oil to control that hook. This is where your weak ball / strong ball strategy is flawed. It's not weak ball, strong ball, it's right ball, wrong ball. Does this make sense?

:confused:

Now I'm admittingly lost...

Okay, can you explain it this way. Given those two balls (specs provided and whatever you know about them)...why wasn't there enough sideways energy in the Optimus vs. the Force?

I mean, the RPMs and axis tilts...all that stuff are essentially constant. The angle I was playing may have opened up 'slightly' when I moved inside with the Force Pearl...but very little. If we look at the Optimus; I was probably laying it down on 12-13 and aiming for 8-9...essentially 4 boards of difference. At my deepest spot in Game 3 with the Force Pearl I was probably laying it down on 18-21 and aiming for 12-13...so 6-8 boards difference.

So, if you have two balls...both thrown at similar speeds, similar RPMs, similar axis tilts/axis rotation....what are the differences?

- ball specifications (RG, differential, manufacturer, coverstock, age/technology)
- surface

When I switched from the Optimus to the Force Pearl...I had moved into 'about' standing 21/aiming 9...but my vertical target was midway down the lane due to massive surface problem on the Optimus. Switching to the Force...I could bring that vertical target back in around the arrows.

BUT...I still needed to move left. 1:1 at first...then 1:2, etc... until I was eventually around standing 25/aiming 12.

My only explanation (besides the stronger ball explanation)...is simple transition. I always move left over the course of the night...that night was no different. As I moved into 9-11...I was in the track, heavily played area, a lot of transition, so you're going to need to make more frequent moves.

@boatman
The point I was trying to get at is that the Optimus Solid has been giving me problems over the summer. I was hoping to surface it to 1500 and use it on fresh oil...do exactly what Rob has been preaching...get inside that oil rather than start out in the 7-10 area. But, I couldn't find a line that worked. If I layed the ball down around 14 and targeted 11-12...it wouldn't make it back to pocket...as if the line wasn't right. Not that it was burning up...just that the line was too extreme for the ball given my low RPMs.

So, then I'd move outside (of the typical oil line) and lay the ball down around 12 and aim for 9...and the ball would either go through the nose or hit the pocket and deflect terribly...leaving me 10-pins, 5-pins, 8-pins, etc.. So, that ball, with surface...just wasn't working on fresh conditions...because I couldn't find a line where it worked.

So, I changed the surface to Storm Step 2 and figured I'd use it as a "ball down" option to my Aura Mystic (which I took out of retirement). That decision seemed to be working fairly well...for 2 weeks...and then I went to pull the Mystic out of my ball bag and noticed it had cracked all the way around the ball. At that point, I had to unretire the Grudge Hybrid...which has always been a bit too strong for the house I bowl at. It gives me the same problem I talked about above. I try to play close to 3rd arrow...I leave 2-pin combinations...I try to move outside and play more "up and in"....it either goes through the nose or deflects terribly.

[Ryster]

As others have said, sounds like the ball is losing energy/rolling out, causing the deflection. For context, I was once bowling in a Pro-Am and complained to the pro on our pair that I had left a few weak 10's, a couple of 8's, and an 8-10 in the previous game. I incorrectly attributed it to carrydown. He said to me "sounds to me like the lanes are getting dry and you are using a ball with too much surface. it is rolling out and deflecting. if you happen to have a pearl try that and see what happens." So I immediately switched to a pearl, my carry issues went away, and I ended up beating that same pro.

[RobLV1]

We keep coming back to your attitude about oil. You know that a ball cannot hook in the oil and you think that's a bad thing. It's not. That fact alone should tell you how to use the oil to your advantage. You use the oil to help to get your ball to the point where it needs to be to maintain maximum power to impart to the pins. You are looking at the lanes from side to side instead of front to back. You needn't be afraid that your ball is not hooking for the first thirty to forty feet of lane. Know that whatever hook you get for the last 20 feet of lane is what is going to knock down the pins.

[ALazySavage]

Aslan, something I would recommend doing if you haven't already is drawing to scale a bowling lane, from foul line to the back of the deck to get a different view of the impact of front to back ball motion vs. left to right ball motion. There is definitely some really good points in this thread about oil, releases, etc. and I do think that the common thread of you were using too strong of a ball with too much surface to create room and carry. My two cents on this (and I am open to correction/critical comments) is as follows:

1. Another way to say oil is your friend - you use the oil to attack the friction on the lane. The oil helps you gets to that part of the lane in which your ball needs to use its energy.
2. When talking about "ball up" or "ball down" it may help to shift your perspective away from the left and right comparisons and more to the front and back comparison. Think of "ball up" not as a recipe to move left, but rather as a recipe for the ball to start its move (and use its energy) closer to you, and "ball down" as moving this closer to the pins. I know this is an over-generalization, but it may help in the rolling out discussion.

[RobLV1]

Aslan, something I would recommend doing if you haven't already is drawing to scale a bowling lane, from foul line to the back of the deck to get a different view of the impact of front to back ball motion vs. left to right ball motion. There is definitely some really good points in this thread about oil, releases, etc. and I do think that the common thread of you were using too strong of a ball with too much surface to create room and carry. My two cents on this (and I am open to correction/critical comments) is as follows:

1. Another way to say oil is your friend - you use the oil to attack the friction on the lane. The oil helps you gets to that part of the lane in which your ball needs to use its energy.
2. When talking about "ball up" or "ball down" it may help to shift your perspective away from the left and right comparisons and more to the front and back comparison. Think of "ball up" not as a recipe to move left, but rather as a recipe for the ball to start its move (and use its energy) closer to you, and "ball down" as moving this closer to the pins. I know this is an over-generalization, but it may help in the rolling out discussion.

A great summary and recommendation!

[J Anderson]

But why did I need to move right with the first ball?

Thats where my "stronger/weaker" comes into play.

If oil = good...and sanded = better in oil...then the first ball should have been the bee's knees. But, it wasn't. I actually had to move right 1:2 because it wouldn't make the turn.

Now, in fairness...I wasn't really in the oil with it when it wasn't making the turn...I was up 8-9. But, the Force Pearl made the turn (and the some) up 8-9...forcing me all the way into 12-13. So, Force Pearl = "stronger ball" than Optimus Solid?


I do not know how both Rob and I missed this, maybe Rob is just tired of saying it, we have to get away from thinking of balls as “weak” or “strong”. There are at least four things that affect how a ball reads the lane, R.G., differential, cover stock composition, and surface texture. Those are too many variables to resolve into a simple stronger/weaker choice.