Question using Abralon sanding pads..........

[Hammer]

Is it possible to use a 2000 Abralon pad to sand a ball by hand or does it only work okay if you use a spinner? I saw a video where the guy said once you get to the 3000, 4000 and 5000 pads they will only work if you use a spinner with those. So I get this to mean that the lower grits from 2000 down are okay to do by hand. So what is the story on this, use a spinner with all grits or just the higher grits for sanding a ball?

[RobLV1]

You can use any abralon pad by hand. You may not know what actual surface is on the ball, but who cares? Whatever the surface is, if it works for you, if you do it for the same amount of time next time, you'll get the same result.

[boatman37]

Like Rob said, once you find a surface you like just keep doing the same thing. I have a spinner but seems like if I hit mine with a 3000 or up by hand it doesn't do much but I'm sure it does at a level I can't see. I even keep 3 levels of pads at each grit...brand new, slightly used, and a little worn...lol. I do see a difference between new and slightly worn but I keep a spreadsheet with details of when and what I used on each ball as well as how worn the pad was. I use CTD pads and only get maybe 3 sandings before I can start to feel the difference in the pad

[Aslan]

I did an informal calculation regarding this at one time when this question came up before.

The simple answer is, you can use pads, compounds, and polish with or without a spinner.

The longer answer is...spinning by hand is EXPONENTIALLY less effective than using a spinner.

The reasoning is based in physics and is quite simple to understand:

Surfacing a ball involves two things: Force and Revolutions

The more revolutions you have, the more the ball is in contact with the pad (or compound/polish).

The more Force you apply, the more EFFECTIVE the pad (or compound/polish) is at doing what it is intended to do.

So, if you spin a ball in you hand for lets say 1 minute...you might get 60 revolutions. Then, you switch sides...55 revolutions. Then, you switch sides, 50 revolutions. Then, you finish with 45 revolutions. Your revolutions go down because you get tired.

In comparison, my ball spinner is a 3/4hp 2-speed that is capable of 450rpms and 650rpms. So, it is roughly 10x more effective in terms of revolutions.

The second component is Force. You can't apply much force to hand sanding because you are generally just spinning the ball on the pad. The force is therefore the weight of the ball. So, let's say 15 pounds.

When using a spinner, you can apply a bit more force from your arms and upper torso because you are leaning onto the ball...either on a workbench or on the floor. I can't recall what we calculated that force to be, but even if it is just 30 pounds...thats twice as effective as hand sanding.

And, when you add these together, they MULTIPLY: So, in this example, a spinner would be (2x) * (10x) = 20 times more effective than hand sanding.

I believe the actual number was closer to 60 times...but I forget.

And, this also doesn't factor in that "hitting a ball" with a pad is not the same as "surfacing" a ball. If you wanted me to put a 2000 surface on your ball, I would probably:

- surface the ball 6-sided with a 500 pad at 450 rpms.
- surface the ball 4-sided with a 1000 pad at 450 rpms.
- then surface the ball 6-sided with a 2000 pad at 450 rpms.

That would better remove any deeper scratches and give you a truer 2000 sanded surface.

I also "wet sand" versus "dry sand". Dry sanding is more hazardous to your health because you're breathing in toxic dusts from the bowling ball and I've found that dry sanding leaves quite a bit of "scratching" on the ball where as wet sanding seems to give a more uniform finish.

[Phonetek]

My PSO said that how fast and how many times (on a spinner) you move your hand up and down will determine the actual finish you get. You can use a new 500 grit pad on a ball but you may end up with a 2000 grit surface if you move your hand too slowly and too many times.

So if you're trying to bring a ball down to 500, the key is to move quickly, press hard and don't keep going over the same spots. If you keep overlapping, you're creating more sanding paths, the more sanding paths then the higher the grit. Yeah you're taking more surface of the ball away but your also making it smoother with each pass which is counter productive to what your trying to accomplish. Again, hard, fast movements and 2-3 passes maximum to try get a 500 grit surface.

The smoother or higher the grit surface then go slower. Otherwise you're really just eating surface off the ball and clogging your valuable pads up for nothing. He demonstrated this to me and used a device that tells you what the surface is. Pretty cool really and it makes perfect sense.

I don't know how effective doing this by hand would be vs a spinner but for most even coverage and consistency I'd pick the machine over the elbow grease for this.

[RobLV1]

Who would have ever imagined that bowling would come to this? Perhaps some colleges and universities will add physics for bowling classes. Just knock down the pins, guys!

[Phonetek]

Anything worth doing is with doing right. If surface changes are things they feel is worth their time and they feel is helpful then let them have their cake. It's not hurting anyone and gives piece of mind. Even if it's peeing in the wind, no sense of shrinking the diameter of a bowling ball for no good reason and having the wind blow pee back on you.

Do it right and you'll be able to write your name in the snow although it will be short lived. You'll throw your freshly sanded ball a few games and realize quickly it shined back up and you'll need more snow. At least more to drink to keep your name there. Wow, never thought I'd get to use such a metaphor about bowling. LOL

[Hammer]

You can use any abralon pad by hand. You may not know what actual surface is on the ball, but who cares? Whatever the surface is, if it works for you, if you do it for the same amount of time next time, you'll get the same result.

I am going to use a 2000 grit abralon pad on my new Raw Hammer orange black that I have used for a while. That is the lowest grit that I will use on this ball.

[Aslan]

My PSO said that how fast and how many times (on a spinner) you move your hand up and down will determine the actual finish you get. You can use a new 500 grit pad on a ball but you may end up with a 2000 grit surface if you move your hand too slowly and too many times.
Your PSO is "kind've wrong".

This won't take physics knowledge...just being old enough to have had a wood/metal shop class in high school...

The "grit" of the pads (or sandpaper outside of bowling) determines the finish. You can't get a 500 finish with a 2000 pad...no matter how hard you press or how many times you spin the ball. It's physically impossible. The 2000 pad will surface the ball to 2000...then if you just continue to surface...the pad will eventually lose it's effectiveness.

Now, that's why I say, "kind've wrong"...because a "dull" 2000 pad is going to start to lose it's ability to surface to 2000...and you'll end up with something like a 2750 at some point if you keep using the dull pad till there's literally nothing left on it.

Where he's also "kind've right" is that in Hammer's scenario...hitting a ball, by hand, with a fresh 2000 pad is likely to produce a very thin 2000 surface...probably a spotty 2000 surface. Every time we throw a ball...the surface gets weaker...until it gets to around 3000-4000. If it's polished...it eventually dulls to 3000-4000. So, most people throwing their bowling balls who don't surface them regularly...are throwing balls with a 3000-4000 surface...no matter what the OOB surface was or what their pro shop put on it at the beginning of the season.

So, for Hammer....given it's surfaced by hand...that 2000 will likely wear off about 7-11 frames in...versus having used a spinner where it might hold up for 30-60 frames. In either case, it WILL start to move back to 3000-4000...it's just a matter of how fast because hand surfacing is 10-60 times less effective. This is why bowlers, pre rule change, kept hitting their balls with abralon pads during competition...because the surface was wearing off every shot...every frame...every game.


Who would have ever imagined that bowling would come to this? Perhaps some colleges and universities will add physics for bowling classes. Just knock down the pins, guys!

I find this to be a SHOCKING reply from a guy that has written in depth articles...some of which I've read in their entirety...on ball RG and topics such as how environmental factors and topography will minutely affect ball motion.

At the end of the day, 96% of bowlers aren't going to surface their equipment AT ALL...ever. They'll throw an OOB finish until it dulls to 3000-4000 and then that'll be the surface they use forever. PSOs charge an arm and a leg for resurfacing. Buying a ball spinner and all the stuff you need to surface yourself isn't cheap either. A lot of bowlers buy some Abralon pads and keep them in their bag...maybe they can add some surface if they see something in practice...and that might help them on the fresh. Nothing wrong with that.

BUT...I think there is a BIG knowledge gap when it comes to surfacing where too many bowlers get a bag full of Abralon pads, hand surface their balls before league, and then think they are throwing equipment at lower grit than they are. I think they got that misperception from watching elite bowlers use the pads prior to the rule change and I think the bowling supply industry is reluctant to educate bowlers because those pads are sold with massive margins...primarily to a shrinking PSO market. If they can sell some to everyday bowlers that "don't know any better"...thats $$ in the bank.

[boatman37]

Heck, there are 7 of us on my current team and I'm the only one that even cleans them after we are done. The other guys are in their cars and on the way home while I'm still sitting there with a towel full of ball cleaner. My last team was the same. I was the only one that ever cleaned them. I haven't watched everyone but I'd say I may be the only one that cleans them after every use. Occasionally I will see a guy cleaning one but that might be the first time in 6 months that they cleaned them.

[Phonetek]

Your PSO is "kind've wrong".

This won't take physics knowledge...just being old enough to have had a wood/metal shop class in high school...

The "grit" of the pads (or sandpaper outside of bowling) determines the finish. You can't get a 500 finish with a 2000 pad...no matter how hard you press or how many times you spin the ball. It's physically impossible. The 2000 pad will surface the ball to 2000...then if you just continue to surface...the pad will eventually lose it's effectiveness.

Now, that's why I say, "kind've wrong"...because a "dull" 2000 pad is going to start to lose it's ability to surface to 2000...and you'll end up with something like a 2750 at some point if you keep using the dull pad till there's literally nothing left.

Your comprehension of what I wrote is kind've wrong, actually just blatantly wrong. I never said you'd get a 500 surface from a 2000 pad, that would be a ridiculous statement. Re-read what I said and you'll notice it's quite the opposite.

They may not cover it in wood/metals but in physics they do. Chapter 2 "Every action has a reaction". Action: Keep going over a 500 grit over and over. Reaction: You are evening out the surface of the ball.

The point of a lower grits IS to make it UNEVEN. The higher grits are to make it smoother, hence EVEN. Every pass you do it you're making it smoother so how is making it smoother keeping it 500 grit? I'm not even taking about wear and tear on the pads, for sake of argument pretend they never wear out.

If you're curious what Chapter 1 is in Physics, I believe it's "What goes up, must come down" by Sir Isaac Newton. It's irrelevant for this conversation though.

[RobLV1]

I find this to be a SHOCKING reply from a guy that has written in depth articles...some of which I've read in their entirety...on ball RG and topics such as how environmental factors and topography will minutely affect ball motion.

As a teacher, it has always been my job to first assess what students need to learn based on their particular levels of knowledge and attitudes. Back when I was writing those complex articles about the modern aspects of our sport, I was reacting to those many bowlers who were stuck in the past and ignoring the modern aspects of the game. Now I see a disturbing trend in the other direction of which you (Aslan) are a prime example. Many bowlers have become obsessed with bowling balls, either the core specifics, or more commonly, surfacing as it is easier to understand. Many have forgotten that it is still the physical activity of the sport that must be mastered before the extras such as core dynamics and surfacing make much difference at all.

Despite my own history of writing complex articles about bowling balls, I have to admit that I am currently bowling better than I ever have before despite the fact that I leave my six bowling balls in my locker at the bowling center, touch up the surfaces by hand about once a month, never clean them, and take them home to resurface once a year whether they need it or not!

[SRB57]

As far as surface conditioning consistency is the key. I do mine on a spinner and do the same thing every time. I clean my stuff the next morning on the spinner which is just my way and it works for me. I recently had a Roto Grip Helios drilled and that ball get dirty fast but cleans up good on the spinner. I see others around that look like they have been in war and these guys are the higher average guys in my center. So just come up with your way and do it the same all the time. One other thing you can do whatever to the surface but if you don't execute and don't make your spares you won't score. Steve

[Aslan]

Heck, there are 7 of us on my current team and I'm the only one that even cleans them after we are done. The other guys are in their cars and on the way home while I'm still sitting there with a towel full of ball cleaner.
Yup...Me too. I'm cleaning each ball I used that night and everyone else is gone.


Your comprehension of what I wrote is kind've wrong, actually just blatantly wrong. I never said you'd get a 500 surface from a 2000 pad, that would be a ridiculous statement. Re-read what I said and you'll notice it's quite the opposite.

Okay...but now Phonetek is arguing with Phonetek...and that's confusing.


.. You can use a new 500 grit pad on a ball but you may end up with a 2000 grit surface if you move your hand too slowly and too many times.



They may not cover it in wood/metals but in physics they do. Chapter 2 "Every action has a reaction". Action: Keep going over a 500 grit over and over. Reaction: You are evening out the surface of the ball.
Incorrect physics reference...and "keep going over it with X grit and you are evening out the surface of the ball." is "kind've true". I would alter it slightly to say, "continually going over a surface with "X" grit will result in "X" surface.


The point of a lower grits IS to make it UNEVEN. The higher grits are to make it smoother, hence EVEN. Every pass you do it you're making it smoother so how is making it smoother keeping it 500 grit? I'm not even taking about wear and tear on the pads, for sake of argument pretend they never wear out.
Again...at risk of poking the bear...and creating an MWhite style argument...

...not really true...at least not how you're phrasing it.

The point of sandpaper/sanding is to SMOOTH out a surface...not "make it uneven". The surface is already uneven...whether it's a wood board, a piece of metal, or a resin ball. The sanding pad simply smooths out the surface to a specific level. Will sanding a ball that is at 3500 with a 500-pad "make it uneven"? Actually, "sort of". I wouldn't use the term "uneven"...I'd say it will make the surface "evenly 500 grit"...assuming you are applying 4-sided or 6-sided technique and relatively even pressure.


If you're curious what Chapter 1 is in Physics, I believe it's "What goes up, must come down" by Sir Isaac Newton. It's irrelevant for this conversation though.
I was kind've curious. And, it DOES have relevance to this topic. (turn away RobM)...because the original calculation I used to determine the effectiveness difference between a sanding by machine versus by hand took into account the Force applied by gravity...which is related to that "chapter".


So if you're trying to bring a ball down to 500, the key is to move quickly, press hard and don't keep going over the same spots. If you keep overlapping, you're creating more sanding paths, the more sanding paths then the higher the grit. Yeah you're taking more surface of the ball away but your also making it smoother with each pass which is counter productive to what your trying to accomplish. Again, hard, fast movements and 2-3 passes maximum to try get a 500 grit surface.

This explanation...I, again...just don't think it's correct. You always want to apply constant pressure. Surfacing is about consistency...not fast and quick and intermittent forceful movements.

I guess, I'd try to put it more simply like this:

Sanding isn't like painting...it's like wallpapering. If you paint a wall, and then put on another coat, then another, then another, then another...you get a darker result each time. With wallpaper...the result is always going to be the same...no matter whether you put one sheet of wallpaper or 3 sheets of wallpaper...it's the same design.

When you sand with 2000...it surfaces to 2000. Pressure and revolutions and technique will effect the consistency and how long that surface will last...but 2000 is 2000....just like a wallpaper with trains on it is a wallpaper with trains on it. But, like I said...there is the variable of the pads not being fresh. And, thats a significant variable given they wear out quickly and become clogged quickly. So, if you're using an old pad...then it may not be a true 2000 grit.

The "grit" is essentially different sized pieces of rock (it's not actual rock anymore, it's synthetic). So, the finer grits are just tinier pieces that are closer together. The smaller the rocks and closer together they are, the smoother the finish. "Compound/Polish" is essentially very, very tiny "rocks" suspended in a liquid...which produces the smoothest finish. Thats why you can't change the "grit" of the finish by applying more pressure. You can change the consistency, but the grit is what the grit is because you can't change the size of the rock.


Now I see a disturbing trend in the other direction of which you (Aslan) are a prime example. Many bowlers have become obsessed with bowling balls, either the core specifics, or more commonly, surfacing as it is easier to understand. Many have forgotten that it is still the physical activity of the sport that must be mastered before the extras such as core dynamics and surfacing make much difference at all.

A part of me thinks you just like to be critical of your students.

I mean, you spend years trying to get people to get past preconceived notions and embrace modern bowling concepts...and when they finally do...you scoff at them and tell them they need to stop focusing on all that nonsense, just grab a ball out of the locker, hit it with a pad, and go bowl. Pretty soon you're gonna be telling bowlers to stop moving inside and stick with 2nd arrow which works for 95% of bowlers on a THS!

Rob...my prodding you aside...I DO actually agree with you. At the end of the day, bowling is 90% about making quality, repeatable shots and picking up spares. I only dove into the surfacing discussion because that was the discussion...but I totally agree that if you have your choice between spending $1200 on a year's worth of lessons or on a ball spinner and a year's worth of surfacing supplies...go with the lessons every day and twice on Saturday! Your game will be better for it.

[boatman37]

I find this to be a SHOCKING reply from a guy that has written in depth articles...some of which I've read in their entirety...on ball RG and topics such as how environmental factors and topography will minutely affect ball motion.

I think Rob's point was more to the fact that, as an extreme for example, a 120 average bowler is worried about issues that a 220 average bowler should be worrying about rather than focusing on the fundamentals that can get that 120 guy/gal to 180, like form, consistency, etc. That's how I took that comment. Or he was just frustrated and said 'just throw the damn ball' lol

[RobLV1]

I think Rob's point was more to the fact that, as an extreme for example, a 120 average bowler is worried about issues that a 220 average bowler should be worrying about rather than focusing on the fundamentals that can get that 120 guy/gal to 180, like form, consistency, etc. That's how I took that comment. Or he was just frustrated and said 'just throw the damn ball' lol

While sitting at my computer, I must admit to laughing out loud at this post. You are right on both counts! There is another issue, however, and that is one of emphasis/exclusion, and that's the heart of the matter. Yes, bowling balls are important, and understanding them is even more important. Yes, surface is important. Yes, topography is important. Yes, oil patterns are important. Yes, lateral adjustments are important. Yes, hand position adjustments are important. Yes, speed adjustments are important. Yes, loft adjustments are important. Most importantly, noticing and understand transitions is important. My point of this whole thing was that bowlers today cannot effort to get hung up on one thing... you have to look at everything and learn when to make the correct adjustment. Just thinking about what surface you are applying to your ball and how you are doing it is going to leave you several dollars short!

[Phonetek]

To much to quote so I'll pick just this
Aslan said this..."The point of sandpaper/sanding is to SMOOTH out a surface...not "make it uneven". The surface is already uneven...whether it's a wood board, a piece of metal, or a resin ball."

You're simply not understanding what I'm saying but I'll give it one last try. You are not evening the surface with 500 grit unless the ball was 0-499 grit to begin with. Of course they are uneven but not THAT uneven. Take any ball with any higher grit surface. Let's use a plastic ball for the example, say it's 5000 grit. Look at the surface with magnification.

Now hit the ball with 500 grit and again look at the same surface with the same magnification. Can you seriously tell me that that surface is more "EVEN" that it is at 5000 grit? With 500 you're putting deep grooves in the surface hence making it uneven. Your making a smoother surface rough not making a rough surface smoother.

Sanding something doesn't automatically mean you're smoothing it! You're only smoothing it if the grit is smoother than what you're using it on. It doesn't matter what the surface is made of, wood, metal, bowling ball or a freaking diamond.

Now those deep grooves you just put in the ball by sanding quickly like I was saying are spaced out because of the size of the grit. Look again with magnification. If you go too slowly now these grooves are going to continue to over lap, the grooves get wider and wider. Eventually the grooves will be so wide that they aren't grooves anymore they are now a flat surface again which is counter productive. You're not making it MORE 500 grit by sanding it more, you're making it less like 500 meaning 800, 1000, 1500 and so on. Again, look at it with magnification and you'll see what I'm talking about. Yeah it will be rougher than you started with but it won't truly be 500 grit.

Those grooves are what gives you the surface. You WANT those singular deep grooves at 500. Making them wider and overlapping them takes them away! All you accomplished is making the surface dull and powdery looking. That doesn't equal surface, all you did is take away the luster. If that's the case then by the time practice is over and it's lane shined the surface is moot when the league starts. For it to last as long as it should it needs to be done properly. It still don't last long either way but why grind away at the diameter of the ball for nothing?

Maybe you'll understand with this explanation because I apparently didn't make it clear enough before. If not then I give up, I will not go back and forth. I'm not Mike W. and I don't appreciate the association by the way. I'm not going to bang my head against the wall though trying to explain something to someone that can't grasp it. I do have better things to do. Hopefully I succeeded.

[J Anderson]

Personally, I do not bother adjusting the surface of my bowling balls. I do on occasion send one or two to spend time in the pro shop’s sauna which is followed by a ride in the resurfacing machine and the changing of the finger grips.

My day job does at times involve using sandpaper on wood or painted wood. Sanding longer with a coarse grit does not equal sanding with a finer grit. It just removes more of the wood. In wood finishing the idea is flatten the high spots with the coarse and then remove the scratches left by the sand paper by using progressively finer grits. A bowling ball is already uniformly round. The only reason for us to sand it is to change the surface texture of the ball. Bowlers have effectively changed the texture by hand sanding for decades. There’s no doubt in my mind that a ball spinner would probably do the job quicker with less effort.

[Phonetek]

I'm not disputing the longer you sand the more surface you are removing. You can sand a bowling ball to the size of a golf ball if you really want to. The difference between using a spinner and by hand isn't really what I'm talking about. I'm specifically talking about using a spinner.

What I'm saying is the more you sand it the less chance of maintaining the surface of what you're trying to put on it will be by sanding more.

Obviously there is no way I can prove this with mere words. I need one of those surface checker doo-dads that the pro shops have, a few new pads and do a video.

If my PSO didn't show me this in person I would likely be skeptical too. Since I don't have that doo-dad I obviously can't do this. It wouldn't be a feasible purchase because I wouldn't use it other than to prove my point. That's ok.

All I can suggest is that any of you with a spinner grab two balls and two new 500 pads. Do one with a 500 doing it like I said and do the other at 500 going over it and over it a bunch of times slowly. Bring them both to your PSO and have them use their doo-dad to read the surface of both balls. Then come back here and tell me if I'm right or wrong. Nothing more I can say until then.

[boomer]

I think a certain amount of the problem here is confusing "smooth" with "make consistent"

sandpaper (abralon pads, whatever) don't "smooth" (bear with me) but rather "make consistent"

if you have a surface that is raw, it is inconsistent. There are bumps, valleys, some may be at one consistency and other parts may be at another.

We can hit that surface with a high grit pad, say 1000, and it will take the high points and grind them so they are at a 1000 grit consistency. If we continue long enough, we can eventually get the whole thing to a 1000 grit consistency although it will take quite a bit of time to do so.

We can hit that surface with a low grit pad, say 120, and it will QUICKLY take down the high points, even down to the valleys, and make the whole thing a 120 grit consistency.

We can then move up grits, say to 240, and that will then start by taking down the peaks to a 240 consistency with valleys left. Keep it on longer and it will take down the peaks low enough that the valleys disappear. Repat this process to get a fully consistent surface of 1000 or whatever.

We can also combine this - take that 120 grit, then knock down the peaks so you keep some deep valleys but you have a lighter consistency on the now leveled peaks.


But all of this is dependent upon GRIT, PRESSURE, and TIME.

Grit plus pressure and no time - not much consistency.
Grit plus time but no pressure - not much consistency - might knock off tops or put in surface scratches but no consistency unless a LOT of time is used.


In woodworking or metalworking, it's about consistency - smoothness is used in place of that, but consistency is what we mean. We use a higher grit until we smooth out the scratches made by a lower grit - we make the surface consistent with the grit we are working with until we get to the surface we want.

And I think that's where the confusion comes in - smoothness can equal high grit AND/OR it can mean nice consistent surface (no scratches from a lower grit, etc.)

[Aslan]

I agree with boomer. I think Phonetek and I are kind've in agreement...it's just semantics about smooth versus consistent.

Where Phonetek seems to go off the rails is where he talks about how applying "quicker" or "harder" sanding with one level of pad will result in a different number of a surface. Thats simply not how the surfacing works.

JAnderson is right...that in woodworking, very low grit sanding is often done to roughly remove material. You'll notice that bowling ball grits don't go nearly down to that low of a number. I use a 180 from time to time...but thats as low as you can get. Most surfacing is done at 500-4000. Meanwhile, woodworking tends to use grits in the 20-320 range. A sanded surface on a piece of wood is essentially a very rough surface on a bowling ball.

It's not worth getting into the weeds about. Like I said early on in my post...98% of bowlers are throwing a ball with a 3000-4000 surface because whatever they got OOB or surfaced their ball to at the start of the season has long been reduced to 3000-4000. And, while hitting it with an Abralon pad by hand might buy you a more aggressive game....it'll be back to 3000-4000 by Games 2 and 3. Same thing for polishing. So, as Rob was commenting...it's much ado about nothing...at the end of the day.

It's one of those weird ironies in bowling...that the number one effect on when a ball hooks is surface...proven fact...yet probably 92-98% of bowlers are throwing about the same surface each night. :confused: