Topography fix? Rob will enjoy this

[Phonetek]

Being used to wood lanes, topography to me meant that the lanes basically needed to be cut or resurfaced again to make them flat and even again. Unless there is a structure problem underneath then once they are cut they should be nearly perfect when done.

Now with synthetic lanes I always think of them basically along the lines of lament flooring compared to actual hardwood. They are panels vs individual boards. I never realized that these can actually get more out of whack than wood but that appears to be the case.

They actually have a machine that they can send down the lane to measure precisely how out of whack they are. I'm soon going to see one of these babies in action. Once they do this apparently they can actually repair these topography issues on the synthetic lanes by use of shims. I'm sure there is much more to it than that but I don't know the procedure just yet. In a few weeks I'm going to get the privilege to see this done at my current center.

Apparently there is no rules saying this is required to have done other than it SHOULD be done every 7-9 years. That said I guess it depends on the center and what events you have. If it's just open bowlers and leagues is likely not something you'll be seeing your center do.

I am completely fascinated by things like this and feel greatly privileged to be able to see things like this done first hand. Watching the lanes at my previous center cut was a great thrill to me. I still enjoy getting into debates when I tell people that real wood approaches really have no finish of any kind on them. They never believe me that it's just merely very smoothly sanded bare wood. Considering I bowled on them before anyone else did right when they were done, I can tell you that it was like trying to slide on pavement and shreds the bottoms of your shoes. Until a few weeks go by of people sliding around to shine then up they are brutal.

Anyway, I don't how many people would get very excited and fascinated like myself about watching things like this happen. Since I'm one of those guys who likes getting his hands dirty and loves watching and learning why things work the way they do, it's right in my wheel house. You can ask my mom, I was the kids that dissected dad's power tools to see how they worked and "sometimes" put back together again. LOL If I'm allowed, (which I might not be) I'll see if I can get some video of this process when it starts.

Some things are deemed "classified" and cannot be readily shared but I'll find out if this is one of them. So Rob, I guess although topography IS a big part of bowling I guess it's not something that can't be fixed. I always figured it's something we just had to live with. I'm very curious to see just how "perfect" they have to be and what the tolerances are.

Coming from someone who had to level pin decks in the past and spot pins, lemme tell you that in itself was a MAJOR MEGA pain! There was little to no margin for error. I can't imagine what is involved in doing that plus the entire lane too! Again, this is a few weeks away but I will keep you all posted as I learn more about it.

[RobLV1]

As you told me on the phone last week, you work in a very large bowling center. I can tell you that in the 18 years that I have lived in Vegas, a town with about 14 available bowling centers, I have never seen any attempt to do anything to address topography issues anywhere.

I will tell you that my teammate said to me last week after bowling several games with Chris Barnes and some other pros, that all they talk about is topography; not oil patterns. Gee, sounds like what I've been telling him for the past three years! LOL

[Phonetek]

I was able to witness some of this work being done with the topography. I am not able to share further information, photos or videos of the process as it's proprietary. Sad because it's very interesting but I have to respect the rules.

[Aslan]

This actually isn't very surprising...because the topography shouldn't be that far "out of whack".

On wood lanes, simply sending a machine down that lane (like an oil machine...but one capable of measuring topography) and then sending one capable of leveling (like a planer). The technology isn't SpaceX...it's more like 1940s sonar combined with 1960s wood shop...in a 2000 machine that can move back and forth down the lane.

How all that works on synthetics is the trick. You might not be able to actually plane or sand the synthetics...you might have fill in the synthetic gaps with very light amounts of resin or UV curable material. Again, not rocket science. And the synthetic lanes shouldn't be very "out of whack"...we're talking minute measurements.

Where topography gets tricky is if the lanes are 'tilted'. If you're bowling on a lane that leans to one side or the other...of God forbid...bowling uphill or downhill...now you got a bigger problem.

[Phonetek]

You'd be surprised just out of whack they can be. They are only as good as what's under them on synthetic.

[Aslan]

You'd be surprised just out of whack they can be. They are only as good as what's under them on synthetic.

I'm just saying it's all relative.

People used to complain when there were wood lanes because the fronts were so chewed up that it looked like somebody crashed a dirt bike into the front 10 feet of the lanes. Some of them were so bad, you could see spaces between the boards. Now people talk about slight variations in topography on synthetics.

So, if a center has $20,000 to spend...what should they spend it on? Replacing a ball return that catches fire, leaves marks on balls, and sometimes breaks down and leaves balls stranded under the lanes? Or should theiy replace their 1970s scoring system that they can't get parts for anymore? Or should they annually or biannually replace their dead pins? Or should correct minor lane topography variations? Or should they replace their oil machine that doesn't put down a consistent pattern?

I just think fixing minor topography variations...unless we're talking serious issues with building settling...is probably something to look at after a center has invested in other areas...and most centers struggle to do so. It sounds like your center has put their resources into all the necessary items and is now addressing topography.. Thats great. But, I'd hate to see a smaller center do that and then fail to replace their dead pins or continue to use a broken down oil machine...both of which are probably 20-50x more important at the end of the day.

[Phonetek]

Most of what you are talking about is having competent mechanics, proper maintenance schedules and keeping on top of things. All of the things you described are from neglect, poor management, not having the right personnel and failure to understand what it takes to run a center.

If they are too broke (pandemic being the exception) then they aren't marketing properly, providing good customer service or not putting money where it should be. None of what you described happened over night, if they can't afford to do what's necessary before all that happened then they have been making bad decisions for a very very long time and in the wrong business.

Think of it like skipping oil changes in your car. You can get away with it for a while. Instead you bought a kicking stereo system for it. Keep skipping them then your problems will get worse and worse, cost you more money. Unfortunately the damage is done, you're blowing smoke out of the tail pipe and it's knocking. Now it's only gonna take a complete rebuild. But hey, you can jam some great tunes while waiting for the tow truck since that stereo was more important that those oil changes right?

Wood lanes should never look as your describing. That means they haven't been resurfaced or cut within any reasonable amount of time. At least 8+ years minimum to get like that. Ball return motors should be checked so they don't burst into flames instead of buying extra fire extinguishers. Pins life can be extended by properly rotating them out and proper storage while they rest. Each set CAN last as long as 2 years if you are on top of things or be beat to death in 9 months if you don't. (I posted about this before.)

Typography IS a much bigger deal than you think. If serious bowlers find they can't bowl good scores because your lanes are trashed then they will leave. Guaranteed money lost because of neglect. Bad business.

Nearly half the house is now repaired and in the past two days we've had 4 300's and two 800+ series. Before the fix there was only 2 300's and 3 800's ALL Season! So I have to disagree that typography is a minor issue.

You may want to pay closer attention to Rob when he talks about it and learn how to identify it and adapt to it. I'm pretty sure he has mentioned typography countless times in the few years I've been here. I am only now actually realizing why he stresses it so much. It's a huge deal! That's why he tries so hard to beat it into our heads.

Bowling centers are expensive places to run. Big or small the CAN be successful of you're smart. One of those things is understanding what the cost of doing business is by operating one. Typography is one of those costs of doing that business as is resurfacing/cutting wood lanes. So it's finding good mechanics and paying them what they deserve. They are the make it or break it key to a bowling center. If they can't deal with that then they will be turning into a new Walmart or Amazon store near you and I have no sympathy for them.

[Phonetek]

Oh and as far as their 70's scoring system? That would consist of telescores which were over head projectors or a good ol paper score sheet and a pencil. If you have excellent lanes, well maintained machines and friendly knowledgeable staff I'd be willing to bet that a place like that would pack them in regardless of the frills. The lanes would be the stars not the tech thats globbed up all over them like other places. Actual bowlers would flock there, but fewer birthday parties for 8yr olds. Darn!

[RobLV1]

One of the most frustrating things about dealing with topography issues is that, as the oil is absorbed off of the lanes by reactive resin bowling balls, it often becomes more apparent to the bowlers on the pair. This may be because of increased friction that causes the topography to become more apparent, or it may be that, as the lanes dry out, the break point moves closer to the bowlers and the topography becomes more of an issue.

Last Wednesday in the high average Senior Dbls league in which I bowl, I was on a very difficult pair of lanes. The averages of the four bowlers on the pair were 185-185-198-213. The pair was difficult because of a consistent bad rack on the left lane, and very questionable topography on the right lane. By the last game (fourth), my 171 was the high score on the pair! The sad thing was that I was the only one who would even accept the fact that topography on the right lane was the major issue. Everyone else was talking about carry down causing that lane to quit hooking. You can lead a horse to water...

[Aslan]

Nearly half the house is now repaired and in the past two days we've had 4 300's and two 800+ series. Before the fix there was only 2 300's and 3 800's ALL Season! So I have to disagree that typography is a minor issue.
Well, this leads to an entire different discussion...about whether the goal of a center should be to prop up scores...so I'll just leave that alone.


You may want to pay closer attention to Rob when he talks about it and learn how to identify it and adapt to it. I'm pretty sure he has mentioned typography countless times in the few years I've been here. I am only now actually realizing why he stresses it so much. It's a huge deal! That's why he tries so hard to beat it into our heads.
His head was already too big to fit into 30% of the casinos in Vegas...so thanks for that.


Oh and as far as their 70's scoring system? That would consist of telescores which were over head projectors or a good ol paper score sheet and a pencil. If you have excellent lanes, well maintained machines and friendly knowledgeable staff I'd be willing to bet that a place like that would pack them in regardless of the frills. The lanes would be the stars not the tech thats globbed up all over them like other places. Actual bowlers would flock there, but fewer birthday parties for 8yr olds. Darn!

You're not wrong. The lanes I used to bowl at 3-4 times a week had old Brunswick 2000s...which were one of the oldest automated scoring systems. For those who haven't seen them (you probably have), they have two consoles that look like old computer monitors with a little keyboard in between the monitors and then two monitors hanging up above. No graphics...just the scoring. And, while I think it did annoy some open bowlers who had trouble figuring out how to enter names into the system...I don't think most people minded. The biggest problem was they would go down and sometimes there weren't parts immediately available to fix them. I think they had a very small amount of surplus parts from other centers that would close down because you couldn't get new parts anymore. And if too many units broke at once...they had a problem. Eventually, I think they found a way to replace the overhead monitors while still keeping the scoring units on the floor...but I'm not sure about that.


One of the most frustrating things about dealing with topography issues is that, as the oil is absorbed off of the lanes by reactive resin bowling balls, it often becomes more apparent to the bowlers on the pair. This may be because of increased friction that causes the topography to become more apparent, or it may be that, as the lanes dry out, the break point moves closer to the bowlers and the topography becomes more of an issue.

Last Wednesday in the high average Senior Dbls league in which I bowl, I was on a very difficult pair of lanes. The averages of the four bowlers on the pair were 185-185-198-213. The pair was difficult because of a consistent bad rack on the left lane, and very questionable topography on the right lane. By the last game (fourth), my 171 was the high score on the pair! The sad thing was that I was the only one who would even accept the fact that topography on the right lane was the major issue. Everyone else was talking about carry down causing that lane to quit hooking. You can lead a horse to water...

It would be interesting to see the USBC do a topography study. Not only a random assessment of a few centers to see how big of a problem it is, but also use their robot to see the effect on ball motion.

[Ryster]

Kegel did a Topography Study if anyone is interested in reading it:
https://www.kegel.net/topography-study

Centers prop up scores because high scoring customers are happy [repeat] customers. If customers bowl "poorly" they aren't as excited to come back. If the center can get all of the lanes to "play the same", it just makes customers even happier.

[Phonetek]

Aslan says: Well, this leads to an entire different discussion...about whether the goal of a center should be to prop up scores...so I'll just leave that alone.

No, that's not the goal. If the topography was bad then they should be obligated to fix it regardless of the scores. The fact the scores were bad before but not after just proves how few of bowlers take topography into consideration.

I'm pretty sure the vast majority assumes all lanes are exactly the same and know little to nothing about typography. I admit I was oblivious to it before I read about it in here. Either that or they suck at adjusting to it. Scores happen to be speaking for themselves proving this correct. If a center really wants to boost scores

It also proves that Rob is a bowling God with wisdom beyond comprehension and we'd be idiots not to listen to him.

If a center really wants to boost scores there are plenty of much cheaper ways to do it. Lighter pins, easier shot, higher flat gutters, different kick back panels. Or you can even spot the pins closer together (cough Bowlero cough cough). Probably many other ways I can't think of at the moment or don't know.

That's all artificial ways of doing it, merely making the lanes flat is not and it is the most ridiculously expensive way of doing it. So I assure you that's not the goal, just a side effect that happens to make bowlers happy.

Don't think because our topography is fixed that is an easy house. It's far from it. The ones who got those honor scores are the top bowlers in our center. These aren't beer leagues I'm talking about. I'm sure the normal 220+ bowler from other places would still being pulling their hair out. If a center has good topography and is completely within spec it should NOT be easy. LOL

Only the most dedicated and practiced people in the sport would really be earning those honor scores of things were as they should be aside from someone getting lucky now and then. If it's too easy then something is out of spec I can promise you that.

If every center suddenly did everything 100% in spec then 200+ would have to be truly earned, however bowlers would be quitting in record numbers and bowling would be a thing of the past. That ladies and gentlemen is fact and unfortunately is the way it works in this era, like it or lump it. I see it every day, people slamming their equipment in their bag and storming out because the shot 699? Seriously? It wasn't long ago that was greatly celebrated! Everyone had become spoiled crybabies. (Cough Rash cough cough) Sorry had to mention it.

[Phonetek]

Kegel did a Topography Study if anyone is interested in reading it:
https://www.kegel.net/topography-study

Centers prop up scores because high scoring customers are happy [repeat] customers. If customers bowl "poorly" they aren't as excited to come back. If the center can get all of the lanes to "play the same", it just makes customers even happier.

LOL You must have responded while I was responding to Aslan. Further proving my point

[boomer]

Well, this leads to an entire different discussion...about whether the goal of a center should be to prop up scores...so I'll just leave that alone.




I think it's more of a discussion as to whether the topography was IMPACTING scores as opposed to propping up scores.

If the only thing done was to "tram" the lanes and scores went up . . . then it's clear that the topography was impacting scores in a detrimental fashion.


I don't want a center to make me better or worse - I want a center to reflect me.


We have a pair of lanes that have a bouncy spot - if I let the ball down at that spot, it will bounce in the air for at least 5-7 feet. It is exactly where I set it down if I use my solid and cross the lanes so on that pair I am forced to bowl down-and-in - which is fine but may not be what I want to bowl. A center should not do that - that's topography and structure forcing things.

[Phonetek]

Bottom line is that topography should be addressed to simply put out a quality product, NOT to increase scores. Simple as that.

[RobLV1]

His head was already too big to fit into 30% of the casinos in Vegas...so thanks for that.

Nice comment, John. Thanks for that!

[Aslan]

Nice comment, John. Thanks for that!

You know I'm a big fan. ;) :cool:

[Phonetek]

Nice comment, John. Thanks for that!

Wait... What? He gets thanked for that and I get nothin for...

"It also proves that Rob is a bowling God with wisdom beyond comprehension and we'd be idiots not to listen to him."

What's up with this Rob? LOL

[boomer]

Bottom line is that topography should be addressed to simply put out a quality product, NOT to increase scores. Simple as that.

And if scores increase, it's evidence that the product lacked quality previously.

I remember going to a local center that did not maintain its lanes at all - was NOT enjoyable, scarred up my balls (heh heh) and just bad experience. I've not gone back there since, and that's like 20 years. I've been told they've changed but . . .

[RobLV1]

I think that the original idea of this thread has been lost. Lanes that have topographical issues do not "lack quality." Topography is a fact of life on synthetic lanes; it's the nature of the beast. The idea is that bowlers have to get it in their heads that oil is no longer king; topography is!

Phonetek: The comment to John was dripping with sarcasm. Yours didn't warrant it! LOL

[Phonetek]

I think that the original idea of this thread has been lost. Lanes that have topographical issues do not "lack quality." Topography is a fact of life on synthetic lanes; it's the nature of the beast. The idea is that bowlers have to get it in their heads that oil is no longer king; topography is!

True but how many posts actually stay on topic? At least they are still valid to subject although not the original point. Nonetheless, I agree topography is King. The now 12 300's in about a week will also agree.

Phonetek: The comment to John was dripping with sarcasm. Yours didn't warrant it! LOL

One of my few comments that I wasn't being sarcastic and giving credit where credit is due. I'll keep in mind for the future that you only respond to insults. LOL

[boomer]

I think that the original idea of this thread has been lost. Lanes that have topographical issues do not "lack quality." Topography is a fact of life on synthetic lanes; it's the nature of the beast. The idea is that bowlers have to get it in their heads that oil is no longer king; topography is!

I think that, as with most things, it's within limits.

"Lanes that have topographical issues, but are within limits, do not 'lack quality'" would be a better statement. If centers let their lanes get outside those limits then we have issues. If the lane profile was convex overall, that would not be enjoyable or constructive. If the USBC and the owners associations aren't enforcing it, why would owners do it?

Nothing is ever perfect. You get zeros on a thousandth depth gauge and woohooo - until you grab a tenth-thousandth depth gauge and see that needle wiggle . . . crap! And then you slide it on a reference plate and see that ink . . . and start scraping.