Finding the Yin and the Yang on Rotation

[mrbill]

I was having alot of problems with my ball hooking not hooking enough, and tryed many diffrent things to no avAIL:(
I tryed lofting
I tryed to shorten my approch and visa versa.
I tryed my back swing more or less.
I tryed working on flicking my fingers right at release.
I tryed the 50/50 approch.
I've been bowling almost every day for 8 months (only 2 game a day)
But today after watching my ESPNNC/ESPN2 and youtube vids It came apon me.
After watching and thinking it came to me, I can't crank like the younger folk so what do the strokers do that I'm not?
I found the most extream player that gets the same rotation, not alot mind you but the same and is known for being one of if not the most technical bowler on the PBA, {Chris Barns} I don't know why it never came to me before:confused:
I was trying to bend my wrist at the end of the stroke and muscling it and getting many diffrent reactions.
Chris Barns Keeps his wrist extremely bent from the start and at release he can gauge it down with out musling it:eek:
its so simple and I never even tryed it, Till Today:D
8 strikes during that last practice after my week/ 8month slump.
I found my Ying&Yang and I will keep you all posted on if it works tonight at League...........

[mrbill]

Well I lost it again, I have so many ways to release the ball so many Lines to throw the ball so many everything I'm learning so fast, I mixed myself up and lost my bace....
I have been doing so bad lately and feel so lost now on the line I need to pick 1 style and work on that.
I have a 186 avg in my wed night league and I bowled a 149 178 136! we lost every game and pins.
I practice almost every day and somtimes twice a day and I'm trying so many new things. My 16lb ball feels lighter my 14lbspare ball feels like a 10pounder its just Im all over the place making all the wrong choices it seems. I's hard to find help with any of my league team mate because they all have lower avg then I and most say I'm throwing the ball to fast, maybe therte right but if I throw it any slower the ball will be going backwards<<<
Any advice plz

[JaxBowlingGuy]

post a video... or wait 2 weeks and i could help some

[mrbill]

will do. thanks

[JackyChua_SG]

Well I lost it again, I have so many ways to release the ball so many Lines to throw the ball so many everything I'm learning so fast, I mixed myself up and lost my bace....
I have been doing so bad lately and feel so lost now on the line I need to pick 1 style and work on that.
I have a 186 avg in my wed night league and I bowled a 149 178 136! we lost every game and pins.
I practice almost every day and somtimes twice a day and I'm trying so many new things. My 16lb ball feels lighter my 14lbspare ball feels like a 10pounder its just Im all over the place making all the wrong choices it seems. I's hard to find help with any of my league team mate because they all have lower avg then I and most say I'm throwing the ball to fast, maybe therte right but if I throw it any slower the ball will be going backwards<<<
Any advice plz

I remembered when I was in my college bowling team, the same thing happened to me. The ball just doesn't seem to want to hook, despite putting so much effort to ensure I am doing everything right.

All people I asked, told me that I was simply trying too hard.

Upon graduating, I almost gave up the sport, resigned to the fact that I could never master a proper hook, like what those PBA players are doing.

Some time ago, I chanced upon an advice from a buddy, whom I had been bowling with occasionally.
He saw what I was doing, and advised me to just 'let it go' at the point of release.

I never believed that could work.

Nevertheless, I went back to the basics and worked on letting the ball go instead of lifting, when the swing arrives somewhere near the ankle.

Fast forward 2 years...
Hooking the ball should really be effortless & fun!

I hope I can share this with more people, so that they can experience the thrill of watching the ball travel like a guided missile, and smashing into the pocket as if it had been programmed by a remote control.

The reaction that I am getting nowadays are getting so aggressive that I have to switch to Urethane balls to get the length & control I need.

I never regret making that decision to re-work on my game 2 years back.
If you want to know more, feel free to write to my personal mail:

jackychua.sg@gmail.com

With warmest regards, & lots of high scores ahead!

Jacky Chua

[mrbill]

Wow Thanks for the insite and I will take it to heart be trying what you said Jacky.
I have been working on putting together this short video of me on 070709 and in july at the florida bowlers classic.
My ball movment is not what I would like and Now my aim seems to be off. Its like my brain is saying H00k and my body is saying noway lol
Heres that Vid Robert, I hope I'm not a lost cause hehe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8HZT7v186A

If the link does not work please let me know, this is my first time trying to do it...:eek:

[extraacount]

Just wondering but most of your shots went towards the middle. Were you going for the pocket or a brooklyn?

[mrbill]

Just wondering but most of your shots went towards the middle. Were you going for the pocket or a brooklyn?

I was going for the pocket on all the shots.:(
I was missing my mark Most of the time on the first half and on the 2nd half was a turney THS shot I think and I was playing the inside stright 10 board and my stance was the 20. My ball I just found out has never been washed in many years and I'm a noob for not notice.
My ball always h00ked great like 10 boards on a house shot but by the 2nd 3rd games my ball would lose its reaction.....
I took Stormbowlers/Roberts advice watched his video and washed it, (6 times) Then Went out and got 91% alcohol and wha la!!!
My ball works great again, Knocked out a 187 and a 208 today and yesterday I got a 167 and a 213:cool:

[JaxBowlingGuy]

I was going for the pocket on all the shots.:(
I was missing my mark Most of the time on the first half and on the 2nd half was a turney THS shot I think and I was playing the inside stright 10 board and my stance was the 20. My ball I just found out has never been washed in many years and I'm a noob for not notice.
My ball always h00ked great like 10 boards on a house shot but by the 2nd 3rd games my ball would lose its reaction.....
I took Stormbowlers/Roberts advice watched his video and washed it, (6 times) Then Went out and got 91% alcohol and wha la!!!
My ball works great again, Knocked out a 187 and a 208 today and yesterday I got a 167 and a 213:cool:

That way of cleaning works very well doesnt it...lol and always keep the 91% handy with you... i keep a big bottle in my bag at all times for in between sets.. Make sure you have it at trnys that you bowl multiple squads

[gparks]

without seeing the video (im on a cell phone at that moment) i bet we throw a similar style ball... when im feeling low on revs /lift i tuck my pinky under my hand before i put my fingers in the ball it gets my wrist to cup tighter it seems .i only do it on a real oily lane when i cant see the ball snap and im standing very right and hitting second arrow big thing for me is i rev more when im loose and relaxed,and not thinking about it .some nights im a "tweener" most nights im a "stroker" dont know until i pitch my first ball down the lane:) good luck my friend keep us posted

[mrbill]

Just got back from league. We won 5 out of 7 so thats good.
I rolled a 179 186 167 I was tight and missed more spares then any one should.
My ball lost traction in the 2nd game so some one let me use some kegel ball spray, it worked and my ball traction came back.

That way of cleaning works very well doesnt it...lol and always keep the 91% handy with you... i keep a big bottle in my bag at all times for in between sets.. Make sure you have it at trnys that you bowl multiple squads

I will from now on lol...


without seeing the video (im on a cell phone at that moment) i bet we throw a similar style ball... when im feeling low on revs /lift i tuck my pinky under my hand before i put my fingers in the ball it gets my wrist to cup tighter it seems .i only do it on a real oily lane when i cant see the ball snap and im standing very right and hitting second arrow big thing for me is i rev more when im loose and relaxed,and not thinking about it .some nights im a "tweener" most nights im a "stroker" dont know until i pitch my first ball down the lane good luck my friend keep us posted

I will try tuckinh my pinky, heck I'll try anything hehe. I have a 8 year old ball too but this week i'm getting the JigSaw drilled 4x4
If that don't work better then I know its me and if that happens its tredmill/workout time lol

[gparks]

Ahh the jigsaw is nice, my team capt just got one and it is aggressive. have you tried a wrist support at all?
i don't but thinking about it. that was a good night 5of 7 will work for me tonight :) we start our fall/winter (a 32 week marathon) weeeee

[mrbill]

Ahh the jigsaw is nice, my team capt just got one and it is aggressive. have you tried a wrist support at all?
i don't but thinking about it. that was a good night 5of 7 will work for me tonight :) we start our fall/winter (a 32 week marathon) weeeee

Yeah I got a hand wrist support I use some times, I took the bar out though just to use the grip and wrist strap.
Good Luck on the fall/winter league:)

[Evilash71]

That way of cleaning works very well doesnt it...lol and always keep the 91% handy with you... i keep a big bottle in my bag at all times for in between sets.. Make sure you have it at trnys that you bowl multiple squads

would you mind sharing this cleaning technique?

[JaxBowlingGuy]

would you mind sharing this cleaning technique?

http://www.bowlingboards.com/showthread.php?t=3371&highlight=cleaning

The video is on my youtube

[Rocket]

I was having the same trouble, just returning to bowling after 20 years. Then I read to stay behind the ball until thumb comes out at ankle (do not turn hand early) and then as the ball is coming off the finger tips the hand will turn naturally while the arm continues the follow through have been throwing a nice smooth hook ever since.

[JackyChua_SG]

Wow Thanks for the insite and I will take it to heart be trying what you said Jacky.
I have been working on putting together this short video of me on 070709 and in july at the florida bowlers classic.
My ball movment is not what I would like and Now my aim seems to be off. Its like my brain is saying H00k and my body is saying noway lol
Heres that Vid Robert, I hope I'm not a lost cause hehe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8HZT7v186A

If the link does not work please let me know, this is my first time trying to do it...:eek:

Thanks Robert!
I'd be putting up my Youtube videos as well, sometime next week (editing them now).

See you around!

Jacky

[JAnderson]

I was having the same trouble, just returning to bowling after 20 years. Then I read to stay behind the ball until thumb comes out at ankle (do not turn hand early) and then as the ball is coming off the finger tips the hand will turn naturally while the arm continues the follow through have been throwing a nice smooth hook ever since.

This is a good description in terms of when the thumb exits the ball in relation to the ankle. Staying "behind" the ball, however, is only one piece of the puzzle. Since it can mean different things to different people, I'll clarify.

At the time your thumb exits the ball, transferring the weight of the ball onto your fingers, if you are "behind" the ball, it means the entire ball is between your hand and the foul line. We probably refer to this as "behind" because the backs of the fingers are furthest from the foul line while the ball is going forward. You can stay "behind" the ball without being "under" the ball by breaking your wrist. The ball will hook little if at all.

The second piece of the puzzle is staying "under" the ball. Think of a ball resting on the lane and compare it to the earth with the south pole being where the ball is touching the lane. The equator is right around the middle. Staying "under" the ball means that at the time your thumb exits the ball, transferring the weight of the ball onto your fingers, your fingers are "under" the equator. The further under, the more potential to impart revolutions on the ball. Think of it as having the entire ball between your fingers and the ceiling at the point where your thumb exits the ball. This requires a cupped writs.

If you can achieve both of the above - staying "behind" the ball and staying "under" the ball - when the thumb exits next to the ankle, all that's left to do is relax the wrist.

(Now before the technical guys and gals jump all over me - if you do all of the above exactly, the ball will rev but will have nothing but forward roll unless the ball is rotated slightly. That's true, but most people will do that as they move through the release and follow-through.)

If none of this makes sense to you, go grab a football. Can you throw and under-handed spiral with a football? Have someone stand across from you about 10 feet away. Throw the football in and underhanded spiral to that person. Usually when I'm coaching someone and ask them to do that, they can do it with little effort BUT the nose of the football is pointed at the person to whom the student is throwing the ball.

Try it again, but this time, throw an underhanded spiral with the belly of the football pointed at the catcher (the nose of the football is pointed to the side). Can you do it? If you can, then you've learned to stay behind (the ball is completely between your hand and the person catching) and under (the hand starts at the bottom with the entire ball between you and the ceiling/sky) the ball while throwing it. The more the ball spins, the higher your rev rate.

The tighter the spiral, the more you're using your wrist and the less you're using your fingers. This is the modern release. If the ball wobbles, you're using more of your fingers and less of your wrist. That's old school.

BTW - practicing with a football in this fashion can help develop a good release.

[JAnderson]

MrBill - thanks for posting the video. That takes guys and a willingness to improve that many bowlers simply don't have.

I was lucky to be able to freeze-frame your video and make a couple of scribbles on it to illustrate my previous post. If you take this as criticism, please understand that I'm trying to be constructive. If you take a look at the picture, the red line points to what looks like where your fingers are in the ball at the point where your thumb is exiting the ball, or at least where your fingers are as the ball is next to your leg in the forward swing. The yellow line points to the "equator" of the ball. I would classify you as being "on top" of the ball. Almost the entire ball is between your fingers and the floor (instead of between your fingers and the ceiling) at release. There just isn't much you can do from this position to hook a ball.

http://www.pugnest.com/on_top_of_ball.jpg

The following picture is one I scraped off youtube from a slow motion video of Tommy Jones' release. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBvJDJk025U&feature=related). I know it isn't a fair comparison, but I know he can do it right, so I looked for a video of Mr. Jones. I used the same color lines to denote the same things - yellow line for equator and red line for finger position. You can see that he is below the equator and the ball is almost 100% between his fingers and the foul line. There's a whole bunch you can do with a ball from here!

http://www.pugnest.com/tommy_jones_under.jpg

To be fair to Mr. Jones, his fingers start lower/more under the ball before he begins to un-cup his wrist. The video is blocky, but without very high-end video equipment that allows you to capture 300+ frames per minute, some parts of the actual action get missed. It looks like the maker of the video did a fine job with the equipment at hand.

[mrbill]

MrBill - thanks for posting the video. That takes guys and a willingness to improve that many bowlers simply don't have.

I was lucky to be able to freeze-frame your video and make a couple of scribbles on it to illustrate my previous post. If you take this as criticism, please understand that I'm trying to be constructive. If you take a look at the picture, the red line points to what looks like where your fingers are in the ball at the point where your thumb is exiting the ball, or at least where your fingers are as the ball is next to your leg in the forward swing. The yellow line points to the "equator" of the ball. I would classify you as being "on top" of the ball. Almost the entire ball is between your fingers and the floor (instead of between your fingers and the ceiling) at release. There just isn't much you can do from this position to hook a ball.

http://www.pugnest.com/on_top_of_ball.jpg

The following picture is one I scraped off youtube from a slow motion video of Tommy Jones' release. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBvJDJk025U&feature=related). I know it isn't a fair comparison, but I know he can do it right, so I looked for a video of Mr. Jones. I used the same color lines to denote the same things - yellow line for equator and red line for finger position. You can see that he is below the equator and the ball is almost 100% between his fingers and the foul line. There's a whole bunch you can do with a ball from here!

http://www.pugnest.com/tommy_jones_under.jpg

To be fair to Mr. Jones, his fingers start lower/more under the ball before he begins to un-cup his wrist. The video is blocky, but without very high-end video equipment that allows you to capture 300+ frames per minute, some parts of the actual action get missed. It looks like the maker of the video did a fine job with the equipment at hand.

This is great! JAnderson thanks for this, I did not catch that I was that much on top of the ball>
I will heed this great advice and implement it today... I am happy to be here on these boards with all the great minds:)

[JAnderson]

Heh - i don't know about "great mind" but I'd settle for "student of the game" anytime with a hearty "thank you!". I've learned from many a wise person over the years and would be remiss if I didn't pass that information on when asked to do so. Does the football analogy help at all?

Soon I'll be able to post pictures and video to help explain these things a little better.