Can You Lose Points Like This?

[Ryan_W]

A few weeks ago, a captain's meeting was called to let everyone know that a team had been substituting a male for a female. (something we voted on to be illegal) We were told they forfeited all there games and lost all the points won on the weeks they were illegally subbing.

Once the sheets were updated we noticed we had lost 5 points. I spoke with the Secretary and she said that the league office told her to give the absent female bowler zero's on the weeks she had a male subbing for her, effectively making them lose points (the sub's scores were thrown out)

However, what that did was drop her average and raised her handicap dramatically. (100% of 220) We had bowled that team and took 7 points. When they were finally caught weeks later and the scores updated we had lost 5 points to them because of that difference in her handicap.

I explained to her that giving her zeros isnt really a forfeit. She kept saying that's what the office told her to do.

If a team bowls with an illegal lineup they forfeit...a forfeit is like not bowling, nothing happened, they didn't exist, no one gets 300s and no one gets zeros, and no points can be won. They won 5 points from us for using a male sub for a female in previous weeks.

Am I right here? Can someone please explain to me if this situation is messed up??

[bowl1820]

I would write to the USBC rules dept. (rules@bowl.com) and check with them. While not knowing the details personally, I don't think it was handled right.

I believe it's covered by at least rules #105, 110c/2 and 110c/6

105. Absentee and Vacancy Scores
b.Absentee or vacancy scores may not replace scores bowled by an ineligible player.

110c/2 What is an unknown forfeit?
The team bowls unaware that a forfeit will be declared. For example, it was found out
immediately after bowling the opposing team used an ineligible player. The forfeiture would
have to be acted upon within the specified timelines of Rule 119. The forfeiting team does not
receive any points and the non-forfeiting team is automatically credited with all of the points.

110c/6 If a team has to forfeit because an ineligible player is used, what happens to the
scores bowled?
An ineligible player’s score becomes zero, and the game(s) is (are) not included in their
average. The team’s score for the forfeited game(s) is (are) also zero. However, the scores
bowled by the eligible players are counted toward their averages and any individual prizes.


I believe because you appear to have bowled in the unknown forfeit situation in this instant. That you being the non-forfeiting team should be automatically credited with all of the points according to rule 110c/2.

The Absentee woman shouldn't have been given anything. Also her Absentee score wouldn't factor into either.

As for her ave.and handicap , It sounds like what they did was count the nights she missed as actual games she bowled with a score of zero. Which would lower her average (because it would show her having bowled more games than she did) and depending on how many nights she missed it could be a lot.

Which is wrong she missed those nights and should not be credited anything for them.

[Strike Domination]

I agree. Sounds to me like you were right. The illegal sub and the woman on the team don't get anything for scores, as the games are forfeited. As Bowl1820 said, their(woman and sub) averages and handicap are not affected since they don't get scores.

[mrbill]

I would not onlt do as bowl1820 says but copy and print and show the league sec. but it seems to me the sec is a drone and needs the USBC to tell her whats right in writing....
Good luck, for what its worth I think you w0n...

[PSBA10]

The responders above are all correct, that is assuming your league is a sanctioned league. Rules enforcement is one of the benefits of being in a certified/sanctioned league. If however you are not, other than arguing there is nothing you can do.