What do you think constitutes a fair handicap?

[bowl1820]

What do you think constitutes a fair handicap?

Meaning should it be something that gives all bowlers a equal chance of winning regardless of their skill level.

Or should it be something that just helps a little, but still require you to bowl over average to beat a more skilled bowler.
--------
Let me try rephrasing the question.

If you think today's handicap system is unfair, Why is it unfair and how would you make it fair?

Update-
Heres a link to USBC information on handicaps

Click here for THE FACTS ABOUT HANDICAPS (http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/downloads/THEFACTSABOUTHANDICAPS.pdf)

[tomg2100]

yeah i think its nice that it gives everyone a chance but when it comes down to a time when your about110 pins its got to stop.

[Graaille]

The leagues I used to bowl in did 90% of 200, so if you were a 100 average bowler, you got 90 pin handicap.

[threeripmin]

20 years ago most leagues where i bowled were 80% of 200.

[bowl1820]

20 years ago most leagues where i bowled were 80% of 200.


The leagues I used to bowl in did 90% of 200, so if you were a 100 average bowler, you got 90 pin handicap.


yeah i think its nice that it gives everyone a chance but when it comes down to a time when your about 110 pins its got to stop.

Elaborate on those answers. How do they apply to the question.


Let me try rephrasing the question.

If you think today's handicap system is unfair, Why is it unfair and how would you make it fair?

[tomg2100]

I think its unfair sometimes if someone wins the league because of their handicap and you could make it fair by only being able to have up to 75

[Graaille]

If I were to say anything to the (rephrased) question, it would be the handicapped system is misapplied in my opinion. In the church league I was in a couple of years ago, there were people of widely different skill levels participating, and what usually happened was there were 1. 4 skilled people on teams, 2. 4 completely unskilled people on teams, or 3. husband/wife teams where there was maybe one person on the team that was completely unskilled who pushed the team handicap up quite a bit. So over 12 teams, the team handicap varied from 70 pins to over 400 pins of nothing but handicap.

Now, in my example, the high handicap teams became the 'spoiler' teams - they wouldn't win the league, but when they played the low handicap teams - it pretty much guaranteed that the low handicap team would lose most or all the games that evening - simply because if the high handicap team improved at all (which they usually do over the season), then the low handicap team needs to shoot well above average to have a chance of winning.

My solution: have handicap enabled leagues that have low/high end caps: i.e. must average between 140-180 to join this league. I know it doesn't work for social leagues like church leagues and such, but I think that would be a valid change for sanctioned leagues. That way the handicapping will be more uniform across the league, and would help in transitioning to scratch leagues because that would give people something to shoot for. Perhaps leagues that involve bowlers from having 60-100 averages, 100-140 averages, 140-180 averages, 180-220 averages, then scratch.

[BearFan]

There seems to be a general sentiment that a highly skilled team with a low handicap will most often lose against a lesser skilled team with a large amount of handicap points. In our league that has not been the case whatsoever. The team with the highest handicap (my team) came in dead last place during the 1st half of our bowling season. We improved enough during the 2nd half to finish in the middle of the pack, however the team that took over from us the honor of highest team handicap ended up coming in dead last place instead. Both the 1st half and 2nd half winners were 2 of the lowest handicap teams in the league. Also, in head to head competition I've found the higher skilled teams mop the floor with lower skilled teams despite all the extra pins given to them. Our league bases their handicap system on 90% of 200. The problem with this (IMO) is the better teams tend to have bowlers averaging well over 200. So our 120 bowler with 72 handicap pins would have to bowl 23 pins over average just to keep up with another teams 215 bowler who just rolls his/her usual game.

Do I believe high handicaps can be used to a teams advantage? Absolutely. If a team is full of beginner bowlers who are just getting into the game or starting to take is seriously, then there is high potential to improve and use all those pins to dominate a league. Or a team can be filled with baggers, but now I'm off topic and talking about cheating.

[Strike Domination]

I'm not too sure what's fair and what's not actually. Should higher average bowlers be punished? Should lower average bowlers be punished? Should the only advantage be to those who are improving? Examples:

1. 100% of the highest average

2. 80-90% of a lower base(such as 200)

3. 100% of 300

[Jord_84]

I like to keep handicap to a minimum...or bowl scratch. Bowling is a game of skill, the playing field shouldn't be leveled to give those less skilled the advantage.

My league uses 90% of 210....I think.

[truthseer]

Do I think today’s handicap system is unfair?

OK, unfair to whom? Is it unfair to the bowler that has a low average?, obviously not. Is it unfair to the bowler with a high average?

In my opinion handicaps to a high average bowler is irrelevant. In the spectrum from unskilled to skilled bowlers they can be categorized into groups. This relates to post #7’s point. A more black and white filter would have them in groups of low average bowlers and high average bowlers. The groups of high average bowlers are more matched for competition among themselves. The same goes for the low average groups, but to put low and high average bowlers into the same league offers a different competitive environment, and this is where it becomes unfair.

So, the discussion has developed to individual bowlers, and not teamed bowlers.

Why is it unfair and how would I make it fair? I agree with post #7. Offer leagues that are designed for closer averaging competition. This way the lower averaging bowlers can have the thrill of competition amongst themselves, and for the higher averaging bowlers to have the option of competing in more attractive leagues.

But, wait. Don’t they have them already? I belong to a league that has 2 bowler teams combating head to head with other teams and then switch lanes after every game for 4 games every week for 16 weeks this summer, and it’s handicapped. So, the point I’m getting at is that there are ways of getting into a competitive bowling environment in which the handicap system is not a dominating factor (as would a league having both low and high averaging bowlers), and therefore irrelevant.

That’s my input on this subject.

[psaunders300]

There were studies done by the USBC a while ago and over the long term, any handicap less than 100% gives the higher average bowler an advantage. For me I think 100% of 300 is the best. I have never seen it used, however.

[bowl1820]

There were studies done by the USBC a while ago and over the long term, any handicap less than 100% gives the higher average bowler an advantage. For me I think 100% of 300 is the best. I have never seen it used, however.

Heres a link to the USBC information

Click here for THE FACTS ABOUT HANDICAPS (http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/downloads/THEFACTSABOUTHANDICAPS.pdf)

Excerpt:
THE FACTS ABOUT HANDICAPS
The United States Bowling Congress (USBC) defines handicapping as the means of placing
bowlers and teams of varying degrees of bowling skill on as equitable a basis as possible for
their competition against each other.
Hasn’t this been accomplished in leagues, which use a handicap in their competitions?
FACT: The results of an extensive four year study of all types of handicap leagues -- mixed, all
women and all men -- disclosed that the handicap percentages most widely used today -- 75%,
80% and 70%, with 66-2/3 a distant fourth – do NOT achieve this goal as illustrated by the
results obtained in the study as follows:

[owlish]

I like Andy-Capp hot fries, yum...

Back to the original question I find handicaps a good way to level the playing field for fun leagues. I'm a little experienced but very compeititive when it comes to bowling. I would like to get into a tournament or league that uses none in a year or two.

But yes I have to agree with another poster that if my our team is considerably doing much better than an unskilled team YET we lose I find that irritating.

owl

[BearFan]

I understand that it can be irritating to roll much higher games than your opponents but still lose due to handicap pins. But the only way to eliminate that would be for all leagues to be scratch only. I'd guess that would eliminate 95% of bowlers and kill the sport.

Once again, with the exception being the sandbagger (cheater), I believe unless a handicap is based off of 100% of 300 then over time the higher skilled player will most often have the advantage. And like another poster said, I've never seen a handicap system like that.

[mdmjdm]

Handicaps can cause a problem for a few reasons. First of all, the average used to establish the starting handicap of a bowler can entice them to sandbag. In my Monday league, the pattern is always the same, certain bowlers/teams lose alot of games early in the season, and everyone looks at them and knows....sandbaggers.

Three in particular are notorious for it. Every year, they start the season averaging 180 or so, opening in the tenth when they have games won. Then, every year, their teams perform better in the second half, and they are among the "most improved" bowlers, finishing the season between 195 and 200. :mad:

Every year I lobby for the same adjustment to the rules: Previous year's average must be used for the first few weeks, then current averages are used for the remainder of the season. They want to sandbag? Fine...lose alot of games early and see if you can make it up. It never passes, but over time it has put everyone on notice that sandbagging will not be taken lightly, and it is much less prevalent now.:D

Teams can also be "mis-matched" in a league. This usually happens when some band of pinheads decides they want to take a powerhouse, competitive team into a FUN league. They win a few years in a row, everyone else gets frustrated and changes the rules to get themselves MORE handicap without changing the percentage...raise it to 90, 95, 100 percent and see what happens. The bullies will leave because now a 130 average bowler doesnt lose 18 pins (80% of 220) or 9 pins (90% of 220) to a scratch bowler. Then you can change it back if you want, or just leave it..."just for fun" leagues are supposed to be just that....FUN.

In a "fun" handicap league, a 130 bowler shooting 180 SHOULD beat a 220 bowler shooting 262. He/she was over average by 50 pins, while the 220 bowler was only up 42. In an 80/220 league, he/she loses by 10, in a 90/220 league, lost by 1.:(

Lastly, if you are a "high average" bowler (over 200), HELP LESSER BOWLERS IMPROVE!!! So what if they beat you next time? It's a game...it's supposed to be fun.;)

[owlish]

Post #16 is right on the money with this topic. Great post!

[J Anderson]

Lastly, if you are a "high average" bowler (over 200), HELP LESSER BOWLERS IMPROVE!!! So what if they beat you next time? It's a game...it's supposed to be fun.;)

AMEN! I still remember my first season bowling and having John Roth, ( no relation to the PBA hall of famer), give me advice during practice. Then one of his teammates came over and angrily told him not to help me.

[mdmjdm]

I help people all the time, even if they are bowling against me...unless its for money...lol

Usually it's helping them line up, which really irritates some others...god forbid I pass on some knowledge.;)

And, if you really ARE a good bowler, you should still be able to prevail, right?

[WAC4504]

I would love to see a resetting of averages at the half way point, this I think would help to maintain a truer average. As we all know once you get several weeks into the league it's much more difficult to raise your average. By resetting the averages in the middle of the season it would help level the playing field by forcing players who have improved to maintain there true average, and would help to cut down on sandbagging. As far as numbers go I believe that there shouldn't be any handicap over 100, at least for adults.

[DanielMareina]

There is no way to make handicap completely fair. If you think about it, all of you know a true 120-130 average bowler. That person may shoot a 160 game every once in awhile but mostily right around their true average. Then there is the 140 average bowler who can't pick up a spare, but can string strikes together every once in awhile. These are the people that will do well with handicap. If this person shoots 105, 140, 200 there is no chance you are winning against 60 over average.

Here is what I prefer. I like a 90% of 220 handicap system. This allows people with a low average to have a good chance (200 average bowler shoots 200, the 130 average bowler only has to shoot 138 to win. That is picking up one more spare than usual) This also gives the higher average bowler less of a chance of having no chance to beat someone. I find that any more or less % and things start to sway toward one side or the other. Personally I bowl in a matchplay league. This means that all I have to do is bowl better than one person each game.

[mdmjdm]

I agree, 90% seems to work better than any other system, and you just set the basis so that only the top one or two bowlers receive NO handicap. I usually fall into that range, or close to it. My Monday league has a 90/220 system, and my average hovered between 218 and 222 all season, essentially giving me no handicap. My teammates average about 210(9), 220, 210(9), 185(31)...giving us about 48 pins per game.

The next lowest handicap in the league was 70 or so, highest was 240+. Even though we decidedly had the highest average team in the league...we did NOT lead it in wins, just won the title in a playoff. BUT, this was a men's league, lowest average being 160 or so....admittedly it doesn't work as well in a mixed league when there are averages in the low 100's.

When 100 average bowlers compete with 220 average bowlers, the 100's simply lose too many pins (24) in a 80/220 system to win half the time. 90/220 helps, but it's still 12 pins.

Whenever I see that type of disparity in averages in leagues AND hear the higher average bowlers complaining about it...I always have the same thought: Weren't YOU the lower average bowler once?

[americantrotter]

I dug this up rather than start a new thread. Last night was the first week of playoffs in my league. It's a fun league (plays music) but it's competetive. Handicap is 100% of 200. So everything varies wildly team to team.

Our team had a combined 213. The other team had a combined 386 handicap. Predictably we lost. All it took was us being off our game just a bit and the other team stringing a few strikes. We lost overall by a total of 66 handicap pins.

I know it's for fun, but it's also a competition. It makes you understand sandbagging.

It is so much easier for a 109 handicap to string a few closed frames than it is for a 45 handicap to string more than their average amount of strikes together.

I am obviously bitter, but I wanted to see how everyone felt about handicaps today.

[billf]

Tow of my leagues are match play and one team total. Anytime I bowl I try not to worry about what handicap I have or my opponent. I figure I'm always bowling against myself anyway, having no control over what my opponent does. That being said, I will try at times to mess up their line :)
The past week I just moved to play from the 1 through 5 boards and get to play there all by myself.

[bowl1820]

I am obviously bitter, but I wanted to see how everyone felt about handicaps today.


How do they feel? The same.

Looking around the forums the same feeling's are still here, Handicap has destroyed bowling because it makes everyone want to sandbag. Everyone except me and "thee" is a sandbagger.

The one main change is they have gotten away from arguing the numbers.

The new argument about the problem with handicap is. That it's easier for low average bowlers to bowl over their average, than it is for high average bowlers. That's why handicap isn't fair to higher averages.

And don't bother saying if you don't like handicap go bowl scratch, they have plenty of reasons why they can't.

:rolleyes:Now if they could just figure away to penalize a low average bowlers for bowling good and keep them coming back and pumping money into the prizefund. :rolleyes:

[Stormed1]

In many ways it's all relative to what the league wants. A prime example is my Friday senior league. sandbagging runs rampant in the league as the doubles pots are over 2 grand per game. We actually draw for which games are going to be the doubles games late in the 3rd game. One of the best handicap solutions i have experienced was 90% of the differences in the teams aveage of the players bowling that night. so for example if team a's averages total 1050 and team b's are 1000 team b would get 45 pins. Another solution is to make the league scratch with a team limit

[billf]

I believe a lot of it depends on who the person with the high handicap is. If it's somebody who tries every time, has bowled for awhile then the chances of that person shooting way above average is diminished. A scratch league where a 165 bowler goes against a 190 bowler doesn't seem much different or a 190 bowler against a 215 bowler. Given our low population these are real match-ups in our center.

[americantrotter]

I do want people to bowl. But it becomes that deal where unless I become a scratch bowler there arent many leagues for me to compete in and have a chance.

The other side is that this league that i bowl in is the only one that playes music. So I'd like to be able to compete in the league which I enjoy the atmosphere the best. which I suppose is a whole different problem, most accomplished bowlers probably hate music.

[DanielMareina]

Although I agree with a lot of what is said, and have my take earlier on the thread, I do think that a 220 average bowler bowling 50 pins over their average is more impressive that a 150 average bowler bowling 58 pins over their average. (which wins by one pin over the 220 average bowler). That said, I averaged 218 this year. My high game was a 279 and a low game of 148 (terrible!!!). Outside of the extremes, I bowled between 200 and 240 90% of my games. I ended the year winning 68% of my points in a 90% of difference in averages, matchplay league. All in all, I say it was pretty fair. There is no perfect answer, and there never will be one. The key is to find what works best for the majority of bowlers, and use that. We use 95% of 210 in our senior leagues, and in our mixed league. We use 90% of 220 in the rest, except the matchplay which is 90% the differnce in averages. As a good bowler, the matchplay format gets me the best chance to win points, without being unfair. All I have to do is bowl better than, or as good as the other bowler to win.

[billf]

Our scratch league lowered the average to qualify to 165 this year due to lack of bowlers. The captains drafted bowlers based off of average but you still end up with bowlers going against each other with 30 pin differences in average at times. Personally, I enjoy bowling against the better bowlers. Seems that's when I have bowled my best games/series. Last year I lost 784-686. At the time it was my all-time best series and I thank the other bowler for bowling his best every frame there by pushing me. I have a bad habit of losing focus/playing to the level of my competition. That's my fault, not the 120 bowler that beat me with his handicap.

[martin]

hmm just wondering.. what is meant by 90% of 200, 100% of 220 and so on? i don't understand the handicap system.. and what is sandbagging anyway?

[chrono00]

How do they feel? The same.

Looking around the forums the same feeling's are still here, Handicap has destroyed bowling because it makes everyone want to sandbag. Everyone except me and "thee" is a sandbagger.

The one main change is they have gotten away from arguing the numbers.

The new argument about the problem with handicap is. That it's easier for low average bowlers to bowl over their average, than it is for high average bowlers. That's why handicap isn't fair to higher averages.

And don't bother saying if you don't like handicap go bowl scratch, they have plenty of reasons why they can't.

:rolleyes:Now if they could just figure away to penalize a low average bowlers for bowling good and keep them coming back and pumping money into the prizefund. :rolleyes:

it doesn't destroy it, it keeps the less skilled people from quiting, so you don't only have that 5% or so that average over 180.

the only way it's unfair to the better average is when it's 100%, which I agree is pretty stupid. 100% means no matter how good you are, you get no reward for it.

80-90% is pretty fine. say 80%, your giving the lower average a chance. if a is a 100 average and b a 200 and b bowls his average, then a has to bowl better than average to win still.
it's average for a reason. the higher averages are obviously going to be more consistant.

[chrono00]

hmm just wondering.. what is meant by 90% of 200, 100% of 220 and so on? i don't understand the handicap system.. and what is sandbagging anyway?

90% of 200 for example. this means if your average is less than 200, you get 90% of the difference

so say your average is 150. the difference between 200 and 150 is 50. so you would get 90% of 50=45 pins handicap.

so if your a 150 against a 200, your only 5 pins apart after handicap.

since it's 90% of 200, if someone averages say 220, and your a 150, you would still only get the 45 pin handicap.

sandbagging=douchebags who intentionally play ****ty when it doesn't matter to have a lower average than what they are actually capable of/should average.

I know I should average 150, but I throw the ball in the gutter on some spares the first 2 weeks so my average for the league is 120. I get more handicap than i would at 150. after those 2 weeks I start throwing the 150 that I know I can average, but rather than "just hitting my average" I'm doing way better than average because I sandbagged it down.

[dgz924s]

Equality in a handicap system is never going to happen no matter how it is formatted IMHO. The USBC has done as best they can to create fairness. Handicapping is a set system whereas bowlers fluctuate in scoring meaning we have good nights and bad ones so one night we get beat by a high handicap by a lousy outing then turn around the next and bowl great and win over the same high handicapper. Bottom line here is ...just practice and get better. That same thing applies to low average bowlers, if you don't like being a 150 avg. get out and work to improve it. Practice means just that, practice! Not bowl league 1-2 nights a week and expect to jump 50 pins in average.
But back to handicaps, I feel it would be best to have a tiered system where averages are grouped, for example 130 to 150 averages all compete as a group, 151 to 170 and so on. Now the issue is this diminishes prize money. Having 100 bowlers and several tiers means several 1st places thus reducing the winning amount because the entire pot has to be divided several ways. 2000.00 pot for 5 winners is more than 10 winners having to share the pot.
But IMHO if you are bowling to win money, you are in the wrong sport. I feel that prize awards should be eliminated and a point system be established awarding points for high game for the week, X amount of strikes in a row, clean game and so on. At the season end add up the points and be awarded bowling equipment, free game, food, and the long gone trophy. The point system would be similiar to a autoracing points system just to give you something to get an idea.
Handicaps would still be a part but only apply to your tier level.

[bowl1820]

hmm just wondering.. what is meant by 90% of 200, 100% of 220 and so on? i don't understand the handicap system.. and what is sandbagging anyway?

Most leagues use what is called the "Individual Method" of handicapping. This is where each bowler receives a handicap based on a percentage of the difference between their average and a base (scratch) figure.

Example: 90% of 200

Here you see a percentage of 90% and a base figure of 200. To calculate the handicap you take the bowler's average, let's say 173. You then subtract that from the base figure, 200 - 173= 27.

You then multiply the difference (27) by the percentage (90%), 27 X 90% = 24.3

You drop the fraction and the bowler's handicap is 24, Then the individual handicaps of the bowlers are added together for the team handicap.

Another method used is the "Team Method" of Handicapping. This basically the same as the "Individual Method", but instead using the individual bowler's average. You use the teams average subtracted from a base figure.

Example: 90% of 800
Your team has 4 bowler's, their averages are 183, 125, 162, 179. you add these together.
183 +123 +162 +179 = 647 team average

You then subtract that average from the base figure, 800 - 647 = 153

You then multiply the difference (153) by the percentage (90%), 153 X 90% = 137.7

You drop the fraction and the team's handicap is 137

There is also the "Team Difference" method of handicapping. This is where the l handicap is a percentage of the difference between the two teams averages. The lower average team gets the handicap, the higher average team gets none.

Example: 90% of the difference in team averages.

Team "A" has a team average of 647.
Team "B" has a team average of 597.

First you subtract the lower average from the higher average, 647 - 597 = 50
You then multiply the difference (50) by the percentage (90%), 50 X 90% = 45

45 is the lower teams handicap.


and what is sandbagging anyway?

Sandbagging is where a bowler play's beneath their ability, to gain a unfair advantage in handicap or classified competition.
(their trying to lower their average to get more handicap)



it doesn't destroy it, it keeps the less skilled people from quiting, so you don't only have that 5% or so that average over 180.

I agree it doesn't destroy the game, but that is the impression someone can get from reading all the post's discussing handicap in the forums.

Most of the time when discussion's about handicap start, it's about how the high handicapper's always win the tournaments, the league, beat everybody in the brackets etc.

That high handicap's foster sandbagging, all the leagues and tournament's are full of sandbagger's.

And how they wish it was like the old day's, when 200+ averages were the elite and dominated everything.


the only way it's unfair to the better average is when it's 100%, which I agree is pretty stupid. 100% means no matter how good you are, you get no reward for it.

Now there's a point of contention, The research show's that even at 100% higher averages still have the advantage in the long run.

[chrono00]

Now there's a point of contention, The research show's that even at 100% higher averages still have the advantage in the long run.

i'm sure that's probably true. higher average usually means more skilled, which means they are going to be more consistent. but the 200 average bowler gets no reward for being 50 pins better than the 150 average they are bowling against. he gets as much as the 150 vs another 150...nothing.

80-90% gives the lower average the chance, but still gives the higher average some reward for being skilled.

I only average in the high 140's, so i'm not arguing against the 100% because I"m the "elite" bowler, it's just an unbiased opinion on what is fair enough to keep the lower average ppl from quitting because they can't win basically.

in all the leagues i've bowled in, with 80%, the teams with the highest averages are usually at or near the top of the standings, but the mid-lower average teams are usually in the hunt too. and that's how it should be, the more skilled teams should win more often. but the handicap gives everyone SOME chance.

hell one of the coolest things I saw was the first summer league I bowled.
one team completely stacked. 3 guys over 200, and the girl on their team around 150.
the other team was my g/f at the time and 2 other girls, all average between like 100-120, with the one guy averageing 200.
13 weeks, 3 wins a week, no points for totals. knockdowns, my g/f's team need to win all 3 games to take the championship.
pretty much our entire league was down at their lanes for the third game watching the stacked team melt down because they couldn't overatake these little girls that they were SOOO much better than
what really made it sweet was two of the guys on that team are huge douches anyway. and they were all kicking **** and cursing. the one guy was even trying to talk **** to the girls while they were on the approach to get in their head.

[bowl1820]

Thought I'd repost this link for those that haven't read from the beginning of this thread.

Heres a link to USBC information on handicaps

Click here for THE FACTS ABOUT HANDICAPS (http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/downloads/THEFACTSABOUTHANDICAPS.pdf)

[chrono00]

Thought I'd repost this link for those that haven't read from the beginning of this thread.

Heres a link to USBC information on handicaps

Click here for THE FACTS ABOUT HANDICAPS (http://home.earthlink.net/~litefrozen/downloads/THEFACTSABOUTHANDICAPS.pdf)

on that sheet, 0 out of 100 won with 80% handicap. but in my above post about my g/f's team, they're team was in the bottom 3rd of a 20 team league in team average, and they won the championship.

[10-in-the-pit]

Our league uses 90% of 220. You are limited to a 10-pin drop throughout the season from the Entering Book Average and/or 1st half league average. Unfortunately, we still have a good share of sandbaggers and a few who are re-rated. Then the sandbaggers would bring in new blood and have this "beginner" bag the whole season and just turn it on at the end. My favorite one was when the guy starts the league using a house ball, and all of a sudden, shows up with his own set of equipment and looks like he's been doing it for years (I'm sure he had been too). I think the handicap percentage is just too high, but it would just drive even more people away from bowling or bowling in a league. Unless it's a scratch league, you pretty much just have to put up with this kind of stuff and just try to have fun.

I think the people with the advantage are the beginners/mid-level experienced bowlers. As they begin to get better, the natural assumption is that their scores will increase over the course of the year at a rate faster than a more experienced bowler.

[bowl1820]

Now the 10-pin drop rule is pretty good, one of my leagues here uses it to help keep people from bagging.

For those that don't know about the 10-pin drop rule. This rule say's your average can't drop lower than 10 pins below your entering average.

Example: Say your entering average is 190, this mean's your average won't go below a 180 as far as handicap is figured.
So you bowl bad for several weeks and your average goes to a 175, your handicap will be based on a 180 average.

[J Anderson]

on that sheet, 0 out of 100 won with 80% handicap. but in my above post about my g/f's team, they're team was in the bottom 3rd of a 20 team league in team average, and they won the championship.

I'm sure that the study didn't take the results from every certified league over a 4 year period. It is also possible that there were a few winners among the lower average teams, but so few compared to the sample size that the percentage rounds to 0.
That is a great story about your girlfriend's team. Everyone likes to see David beat Goliath with the probable exception of Yankee fans.

[martin]

90% of 200 for example. this means if your average is less than 200, you get 90% of the difference

so say your average is 150. the difference between 200 and 150 is 50. so you would get 90% of 50=45 pins handicap.

so if your a 150 against a 200, your only 5 pins apart after handicap.

since it's 90% of 200, if someone averages say 220, and your a 150, you would still only get the 45 pin handicap.

sandbagging=douchebags who intentionally play ****ty when it doesn't matter to have a lower average than what they are actually capable of/should average.

I know I should average 150, but I throw the ball in the gutter on some spares the first 2 weeks so my average for the league is 120. I get more handicap than i would at 150. after those 2 weeks I start throwing the 150 that I know I can average, but rather than "just hitting my average" I'm doing way better than average because I sandbagged it down.

thx 4 the explanation.. i think its fairer this way.. i don't know in other parts of my country, but in my city, they use a fix set of handicap based on grade.. Open = 0 handicap; Grade A = 5-10 handicap; grade B = 15-20 handicap..sort of unfair sometimes..

hmm sandbagging, can't they be prevented? for example, we know this bowler spares well.. then we he misses spares, can't he be suspected?

[chrono00]

hmm sandbagging, can't they be prevented? for example, we know this bowler spares well.. then we he misses spares, can't he be suspected?

some leagues will have rules against sandbagging resulting in suspensions ect.

but you'd have to have multiple people filing complaints with evidence blah blah, so it's tough to get anything done sometimes

othertimes, the people running the leagues are either sandbaggers themselves so they don't wanna punish it.

...or they just don't give a ****

[martin]

some leagues will have rules against sandbagging resulting in suspensions ect.

but you'd have to have multiple people filing complaints with evidence blah blah, so it's tough to get anything done sometimes

othertimes, the people running the leagues are either sandbaggers themselves so they don't wanna punish it.

...or they just don't give a ****

hmm... this type of ppl exist everywhere seemingly..

[J Anderson]

thx 4 the explanation.. i think its fairer this way.. i don't know in other parts of my country, but in my city, they use a fix set of handicap based on grade.. Open = 0 handicap; Grade A = 5-10 handicap; grade B = 15-20 handicap..sort of unfair sometimes..

hmm sandbagging, can't they be prevented? for example, we know this bowler spares well.. then we he misses spares, can't he be suspected?

The problem is that not all sandbaggers are obvious about it. It isn't all missing the five pin when the game is in the bag. the devious ones will switch to a ball that's not right for the lane condition, or move to a line that's not right, so it looks like they're still trying to bowl well and just getting lousy breaks.
And most of us don't want to wrongly accuse anyone of sandbagging, because most of us have gotten up and blown games that were going well by making simple mistakes

[MICHAEL]

I am new at bowling just started two years ago at age 61. I had bowled a few times back in the 70's with my mother/fater on a league with my wife. It was 80% on those
leagues. I think handicaps are ok, but not real fair for a bowler like me. I have a 182 average, but on any given weekend I can bowl a high 600 series. The other day, well a few weeks ago I bowled a 692 series, and have (last June on league) boweled a 298, even got a trophy at the end of the season for high game scratch, ((but that is with a group of bowlers over 60!! And there are some darn good bowlers on that league. getting back to the subject, my opinion is that bowlers should bowl scratch, but organize the
leagues such that you bowl with a group that is in your bowling range, or age group. Bowling on any given night can be explosive, even if your and average bowler! If it seems
more fair, esp when bowling for big prize money, then I think the 80 percent rule should rule! Just and old X Iron Workers opinion~ ( personally I don't care for handicap), but then I bowl on 3 times a week for fun!

[Okiebowler]

Handicaps should be based near the highest average of the league. If that is 250, then handicaps should be based at a percentage from 250.
What is a fair percentage? Handicap golf leagues usually use 90%. This seems fair for bowling. This gives higher handicaps teams a fair chance of winning a league if they work at their game and improve.

[billf]

Handicaps already favor the person/team with the highest handicap. The higher the handicap the better the chance of improving. I won most improved average my first two years. If I could raise my average another 30 pins again, that would be amazing. How is a bowler who is always around average suppose to beat a bowler who is getting 30 pins over their average per game? I'm all for handicaps but realize that the bowlers with the big handicap should be able to beat me fairly easily.

[TheSheibs]

I actually think that no handicaps should be used. I think that gives a person the mindset to think that as long as they are within so many pins they win. It's almost a gimme, in my opinion. My team lost three out of four last week because the other team had a 83 pin handicap. We won the scratch but with their handicap added lost some. Granted we didn't do that hot but still....If they are going to do handicaps then it should be no more than 50 or 60 pins. Anything more than that is ridiculous.

Also by giving a team/person the handicap pins added to their score. Is that really encoruaging them to try to improve? If they can win by having a high handicap, what's the point of trying your best?

[bowl1820]

I actually think that no handicaps should be used.

I looked at your profile says you have a 140 average, I wouldn't cast stones, You're getting a lot handicap yourself, shoot you'd be one of the ones the higher averages would be complaining about having too much handicap.

As for complaints about handicap, I'll fall back here on the old tried and true answer. Go bowl on a scratch league.

I know what everyone will say "Well we don't have scratch leagues here". Well if all the bowlers who are complaining would go to the house and say we want to start a scratch league you might get one started.

But nobody will do it.

[billf]

Ummm, excuse me, one of my leagues is scratch. I don't care about handicap. Either way I win some and lose some. No big deal really. I just try to control what I can to the best of my ability which would be my bowling. That's why I practice at least 5 days a week. I can't control how a league is set up but they don't force me to bowl in them either. I bowl leagues for fun and tournaments for money.

[MICHAEL]

When bowling Jason, a broken thumb on throwing hand, bare feet, and a bottle of Yukon Jack 100 proof~ Then maybe it would be fair!!!! LOL

[TheSheibs]

I looked at your profile says you have a 140 average, I wouldn't cast stones, You're getting a lot handicap yourself, shoot you'd be one of the ones the higher averages would be complaining about having too much handicap.

As for complaints about handicap, I'll fall back here on the old tried and true answer. Go bowl on a scratch league.

I know what everyone will say "Well we don't have scratch leagues here". Well if all the bowlers who are complaining would go to the house and say we want to start a scratch league you might get one started.

But nobody will do it.

I may have a 140 average this week but it has been increasing each week. I have no problem bowling without a handicap. I am very confident with my ability and equipment that I don't pay attention to handicaps. I also just bowled on of the top 10 scores last week.

[bowl1820]

I may have a 140 average this week but it has been increasing each week. I have no problem bowling without a handicap. I am very confident with my ability and equipment that I don't pay attention to handicaps. I also just bowled on of the top 10 scores last week.

Okay right here you just gave the perfect example of why people complain about handicap.

Your a improving bowler.

You have a low average and a high handicap. But Now you are bowling your average or higher more often. Which in turn means you'll have higher handicap games , you win games, brackets etc. more often.

Now thats why bowlers with higher averages than you, who lost to you, are sitting there saying "handicaps unfair" "The only reason you or your team won was because of the handicap" "look he was on the top ten list last week, now he bowled lower than that, he's sandbagging"

When you win do you say its just because of handicap or is it because you bowled good?

In your example of playing the team with a 83 handicap, you said you lost but you didn't bowl that hot. Right there your saying the reason you lost wasn't handicap, but that you bowled bad.

Should you have won even if you bowled bad?

[billf]

I'm still trying to figure out how a bowler that can pick up any spare, on any condition, in any alley, at any time, only be averaging 140 ;)

[TheSheibs]

I'm averaging a 140 due to having a ball that was set up as a spare and had to fight it to curve it. I also had 10 years of not bowling due to surfing my country. I'm in my first ear back bowling regularly. I admit I'm a little rusty but am starting to get back to where I should be.

As for last week losing to a team with an 83 handicap. Yes, we lost because of their handicap. The scratch games had us winning two out of three plus the series. With having a bad night, we could have taken three wins and be in 5th place. Due to their handicap giving them two games plus the series, meant that we ended up one win out of 5th.

Also I don't care about handicaps. If you have a good night of bowling and hit a high game, and you have a higher scratch total, you should win. I have no problem losing to a team with higher averages and higher scores. Doesn't matter to me. I just want to get out of the house, do something I'm passionate about, and have fun doing it. I shouldn't win because of having a high handicap, I should win by bowling a higher game than the opponent.

To answer your question. No, we shouldn't have won even if we bowled bad. Without their handicap we still scored higher even with having a bad night. We all still had games at our average or slightly higher. I have no problem bowling scratch only. If I do good and win great, if I do bad and lose oh-well. Losing is not the end of the world.

[TheSheibs]

How about adding another part to the league sheet. Scratch wins and losses and change the other win/lose column to be HDCP win/lose? Then add prizes to the team that has the most scratch game wins? So the top three teams with the most HDCP win/loses get prizes at the end of the season and the team that has the highest scratch game wins get something at the end too. Just a thought but what do you guys think about that?

[kev3inp]

Our league does 80% of 230, which is about the high average. Often my team has a 100 or more pin advantage to start the game, but it's gone by the 5th frame. We manged to bowl ourselves out of last place in the final night. Sure a low average bowler has a better chance of having a big night, proportionally. But the point is they don't do it, ON AVERAGE. Or their average would be higher. All the opposing team has to do is to bowl their average and they win by 20% if the team they're bowling does the same. Hey Al, think Sandi would want to bowl on a scratch league? LOL!

[bowl1820]

Hey Al, think Sandi would want to bowl on a scratch league? LOL!

She wouldn't care as long as she was bowling with me.

[MICHAEL]

Our league does 80% of 230, which is about the high average. Often my team has a 100 or more pin advantage to start the game, but it's gone by the 5th frame. We manged to bowl ourselves out of last place in the final night. Sure a low average bowler has a better chance of having a big night, proportionally. But the point is they don't do it, ON AVERAGE. Or their average would be higher. All the opposing team has to do is to bowl their average and they win by 20% if the team they're bowling does the same. Hey Al, think Sandi would want to bowl on a scratch league? LOL!

I agree 100 percent~~ In fact I have said that many times, that a good solid 210 team or higher, will most times beat the team with the lower averages!
I see it a lot in my very short 2 years of bowling. People with low averages as you said usually bowl in that area, only once in while will they have" the big" game that is in reaity, the average of the 210 and up bowlers.. The better bowlers win on the leagues I have been on so far, even if some teams get big
handicap pins. I am sure its not a all the time thing.... but more times then not it seems to be the case.... JMHO

[TheSheibs]

I agree 100 percent~~ In fact I have said that many times, that a good solid 210 team or higher, will most times beat the team with the lower averages!
I see it a lot in my very short 2 years of bowling. People with low averages as you said usually bowl in that area, only once in while will they have" the big" game that is in reaity, the average of the 210 and up bowlers.. The better bowlers win on the leagues I have been on so far, even if some teams get big
handicap pins. I am sure its not a all the time thing.... but more times then not it seems to be the case.... JMHO

In my years of bowling league, I've noticed the same thing. Most bowlers tend to bowl +/-10-20 of there average. Sometimes, on really bad nights a bowler could even be farther below their average than that. I saw a guy with a 197 average bowl a 112 and a 119. Talk about a bad night. And the league I'm in calculates the handicap as 80% of 220. I'm thinking that needs to be lowered.

[martinezsam2495]

Handicap is a great way to balance the games, because think about it, a person who throws a 130 game, can not compare with someone who can throw an easy 200,
with the handicap it gives a more fair advantage to the game, it doesn't give an advantage to the person with the handicap or with the opposing member.

[Florida Bowler]

Handicap is just a way to even the field out a little bit. Bowlers averaging 140 would not have a real shot at bowlers averaging 220. The handicap just lessens the gap between the elite bowlers in the league and the rest of the bowlers. The advantage still goes to the elite bowlers.

Let's say that the top bowlers average 220. A fair handicap would be 80% of 220.

A 220 bowler (a) would have a 0 handicap. A 140 bowler (b) would have a 64 handicap. A 180 bowler (c) would have a 32 handicap.

Let's say that they all bowl their average for the first game. The scores would be 220 for a, 204 for b, and 212 for c.

In order for the 140 bowler to beat the 220 bowler if the 220 bowler has an average game, the 140 bowler would need to bowl a 157, which is 12% higher than average. In theory, if the 3 bowlers truly have that average, the 220 bowler would win the majority of the games. That is why handicaps are set at 80% of the high average, and not 100% of high average.

I prefer playing in handicap leagues, because I have a realistic shot at winning every week. In a scratch league, I would not have that oppurtunity. If I'm bowling against a 220 bowler, his average is higher than my high series. With my handicap, I would need to bowl a really good (for me) series to beat him, but it's possible.

Just my thoughts, from somebody who is not an elite bowler, but likes to compete.

[billf]

I get beat more by bowlers with high handicaps than those I am equal with. It's a focus thing and I realize this. I do it for the competition and to work more on my focus. There is no reason a 120 bowler should beat me other than myself. It's not meant to be mean but rather a fact of how I let the scoreboard affect me.
It seems to be working though as I am currently among the match point leaders and average leaders in my sport shot summer league.

[TheSheibs]

billf- if I might make a suggestion related to the scoreboard affecting you mentally. I guy I use to bowl league with told me at a state tournament that I should do a game without looking at the scoreboard. By not looking at it you are more focused on the throw your about to make. Your not calculating how much you are ahead or behind by. I do this when I find myself focusing more on the score and less on what I am doing. This guy also averaged a 190 or something like that. I'm sure it's higher now. Just a suggestion that might keep you from focusing on the scoreboard.

[billf]

I've heard that and tried it. With a 5 man team I find the play so slow I can't seem to keep myself from looking. Or for that matter just mentally knowing. It's not hard to look when we first walk in to see that my opponent has a 80 handicap or whatever, and know that I should score high enough in half a game to win. One open frame in the second half and I screwed myself.

[ursus]

That old aying that it is 90% mental 10% physical is so true. Sometimes we just beat ourselves with overthinking

[GeorgiaStroker]

It's funny. The guy with the 200 average walks in and sees he's bowling a guy with 80 pins handicap and thinks, Crap! I've got to be on my game or I'll get beat bad. Meanwhile, the guy with the 80 pins thinks Crap! This guy's a 200 average. I'll have to bowl over my head to beat him. :D

[TheSheibs]

That old aying that it is 90% mental 10% physical is so true. Sometimes we just beat ourselves with overthinking

I did this for the first game and a half tonight on the league. I kept thinking about that one game difference between my team, in 6th place, and the team in 5th place. I finally stopped over thinking and moved over one dot, kept the same mark for my target, slowed down and ended up finishing the night with a 189. I also stopped thinking about beating that team and focused on taking my time. I stopped looking at the score until i was in the 6th frame and saw that we were one pin ahead and increasing our lead. We took all three games and the series even though they had 44 pin handicap. I also noticed that I was thinking about how my ball went down the lane and also stopped watching my ball and kept my head down looking at my mark until the ball hit the pins. Overthinking can cause me to miss shots I know I can make or leaving splits like crazy.

[MICHAEL]

And we won 3 out of four including total pins. Only reason we lost the second game was because We were off on our averages!! I think its fair, and makes the game more of a level playing field! Sure you hat it when you lose to high handicap, but if you bowl well, you will win like we did, regardless of pins given! JMHO (this game was yesterday, I thought when we say the amout pins that we would be impossible to win without a huge game from all of us. But about half way through we were about even.... and 8,9, 10 took the lead,,, our last game we beat them by over 100 pins.... )

[TheSheibs]

So my team has moved into third place and for the past month has had to give every team we face extra pins due to handicap. Since we are good bowlers and have realistic averages, we are able to still beat them even with giving them the extra pins. This shows that if you or your team is actually good, that a handicap should not prevent you from winning.

We had one night were we had to give 103 pins. That was a tough night and we did end up losing because the other team had gotten really lucky. Also the reason I am commenting is due to the match-up my team faces next week. We are bowling the team that has moved into first place with a comfortable three game lead over the team that is now in second place. My team is in third place, two games behind the team in second.

The team that is in second place is in second instead of first because of my team. Going into last night, the first and second place teams were tied for first place. We actually had some handicap pins given to us and we were able to narrowly get out of it with three wins. But the wins where very close, first two by 25-27 pins and the third game that we lost was lost by 11 pins.

Going against, the now, first place team next week we are going to be giving them pins. After looking at what they have done in the past it seems like they have been just winning by 5-50 pins each game. Their averages are in the 130-180 range but they always have people bowling 200+ at least for one game.

This is where I do not like handicaps. because we have a higher average by about 15 pins, we will be giving them pins next week. I think if you are bowling in a league with teams, there should not be any handicap pins given to any team that is in the top 4 places. If the team that is in first place right now were never given the handicap pins, they would not be in first place.

What really irritates me is seeing their scratch pin total for the season and seeing that if places where given based on pin total, my team would actually be in second place if we went by total pin and not by wins or loses. I'll get off my soap box for now so people can read this before it becomes a novel.

[billf]

So you want a handicap league but not for the teams that would be in the first four places? If you took their handicap away chances are good that another set of four teams would take their place....until you took their handicap away and so and so on. In that case, it may as well be a scratch league.
I'm sure this isn't how you meant this to come across but in paragraph three you state how your team narrowly won after getting pins and seem perfectly fine with that. In paragraphs four and five you state how you have to give pins and that seems to be where the problem lies; you want your cake and eat it too.
I'm also curious what your average and handicap is. It should be well over 200 considering you can pick up any spare on any lane with any condition at any location ;)

[J Anderson]

So my team has moved into third place and for the past month has had to give every team we face extra pins due to handicap. Since we are good bowlers and have realistic averages, we are able to still beat them even with giving them the extra pins. This shows that if you or your team is actually good, that a handicap should not prevent you from winning.

We had one night were we had to give 103 pins. That was a tough night and we did end up losing because the other team had gotten really lucky. Also the reason I am commenting is due to the match-up my team faces next week. We are bowling the team that has moved into first place with a comfortable three game lead over the team that is now in second place. My team is in third place, two games behind the team in second.

The team that is in second place is in second instead of first because of my team. Going into last night, the first and second place teams were tied for first place. We actually had some handicap pins given to us and we were able to narrowly get out of it with three wins. But the wins where very close, first two by 25-27 pins and the third game that we lost was lost by 11 pins.

Going against, the now, first place team next week we are going to be giving them pins. After looking at what they have done in the past it seems like they have been just winning by 5-50 pins each game. Their averages are in the 130-180 range but they always have people bowling 200+ at least for one game.

This is where I do not like handicaps. because we have a higher average by about 15 pins, we will be giving them pins next week. I think if you are bowling in a league with teams, there should not be any handicap pins given to any team that is in the top 4 places. If the team that is in first place right now were never given the handicap pins, they would not be in first place.

What really irritates me is seeing their scratch pin total for the season and seeing that if places where given based on pin total, my team would actually be in second place if we went by total pin and not by wins or loses. I'll get off my soap box for now so people can read this before it becomes a novel.

This can't become a novel. Novels are fiction. You are merely relating the facts that influence your opinion of handicaps.

Personally I think handicaps are a necessary evil. I don't have any facts to back this up but I would guess that less than 10% of bowlers would enter a scratch league if they knew that half the bowlers in the league had a higher average than they had. A fair handicap gives everyone a chance to at least be in the running near the end of the season. There are few things worse than a 36 week season where the first place team gets so far ahead that the last ten weeks don't mean anything.

[ursus]

If there wasn't any handicap then there would also only be a few teams in each of the leagues. Handicaps make it where at least some of the lowert averaging teams believe they have a chance to suceed. It helps fill the lanes when otherwise they would probably be empty. Almost every league is below what the USBC recommends of 100% of the top bowler.

[TheSheibs]

For the games we just narrowly won it was due to the other team being given pins. If they hadn't been given the pins then we would have won by a lot more pins. Also I didn't think of the top four teams changing as frequently as your comment suggests. I was thinking that the top four teams would stay in the top four spots regardless of being able to get pins. I bet you could look at any leagues top four teams and while looking at the scratch pin totals for all the teams, you would see that the teams with the most total scratch pins for that league. This kind of leads to the assumption that the top four teams are not receiving any pins from handicap when bowling other teams. Also when you are one of the top four teams in any league, how often do you get any handicap pins? I know my team is in third and the only time we get any pins is when we bowl the team in first or second place. It seems that the top four teams never get any pins for their handicap and are always giving pins to their opponent. I was also talking about using a teams scratch pin totals to determine places, not games won or lost. This thought comes from looking at the standing for the league i'm in and noticing that the team that just moved into first place has the least amount of scratch pins AND handicap pin totals. How the hell does a team with the fewest total pins win more games than anyone else? Are they sandbagging? Could they have improved that much over the course of the season? I mean how the hell does a team with the fewest total pins, both scratch and handicap, end up in first place?!?!?!?!? That is what has caused me to leave the comments that I have.

Also the team in second has the most total pins, both scratch and handicap. My team is in third and has the second most total pins, both scratch and handicap. It is really out of not understanding how this could happen. Seems like there could be something shady going on with that team.

[billf]

I believe you but look at your other post again.. The team that is in second place is in second instead of first because of my team. Going into last night, the first and second place teams were tied for first place. We actually had some handicap pins given to us and we were able to narrowly get out of it with three wins. But the wins where very close, first two by 25-27 pins and the third game that we lost was lost by 11 pins.

Something does sound strange with what you are describing but may I am just misinterpreting it. Is there any chance you can scan and post a standing sheet? Just use marker to redact the peoples names.

[J Anderson]

For the games we just narrowly won it was due to the other team being given pins. If they hadn't been given the pins then we would have won by a lot more pins. Also I didn't think of the top four teams changing as frequently as your comment suggests. I was thinking that the top four teams would stay in the top four spots regardless of being able to get pins. I bet you could look at any leagues top four teams and while looking at the scratch pin totals for all the teams, you would see that the teams with the most total scratch pins for that league. This kind of leads to the assumption that the top four teams are not receiving any pins from handicap when bowling other teams. Also when you are one of the top four teams in any league, how often do you get any handicap pins? I know my team is in third and the only time we get any pins is when we bowl the team in first or second place. It seems that the top four teams never get any pins for their handicap and are always giving pins to their opponent. I was also talking about using a teams scratch pin totals to determine places, not games won or lost. This thought comes from looking at the standing for the league i'm in and noticing that the team that just moved into first place has the least amount of scratch pins AND handicap pin totals. How the hell does a team with the fewest total pins win more games than anyone else? Are they sandbagging? Could they have improved that much over the course of the season? I mean how the hell does a team with the fewest total pins, both scratch and handicap, end up in first place?!?!?!?!? That is what has caused me to leave the comments that I have.

Also the team in second has the most total pins, both scratch and handicap. My team is in third and has the second most total pins, both scratch and handicap. It is really out of not understanding how this could happen. Seems like there could be something shady going on with that team.

There is something called luck. The first scratch league that I bowled in had the following setup: 4 bowlers per pair, A bowls C, B bowls D. After each game A & B move left, C & D move right. There were a number of nights where several games I would get no points despite having the second highest game on the pair. I just had the bad luck of bowling against the guy or girl who had the highest game.

[billf]

I just checked out the standing sheets for my Saturday Night Mixed league this past season. We finished second. We had the highest total scratch pinfall by over 600 pins and highest total with handicap by about 100 pins. Looking at what we shot each week as a team, when we won we won big. When we lost it was usually under 20 pins. Now if the old, fat, disabled guy bowling anchor could have just picked up one more strike and spare per game, we would have only lost 16 points for the season.

[bowl1820]

I believe you but look at your other post again.. The team that is in second place is in second instead of first because of my team. Going into last night, the first and second place teams were tied for first place. We actually had some handicap pins given to us and we were able to narrowly get out of it with three wins. But the wins where very close, first two by 25-27 pins and the third game that we lost was lost by 11 pins.

Something does sound strange with what you are describing but may I am just misinterpreting it. Is there any chance you can scan and post a standing sheet? Just use marker to redact the peoples names.

What doesn't sound right is where he said "we were able to narrowly get out of it with three wins"

Then in the next sentence he say's they won 2 games and lost the third. "the third game that we lost was lost by 11 pins"

If you lose one game out of three, that means you won two games not three.

[billf]

The first post today TheSheibs said they were given the pins and then in the later post said they gave the other team pins. Not quite sure how that works as you can't get and give at the same time.
I don't usually get many pins, if any and don't really care. What I don't understand is this; if you don't like handicap then just bowl in a scratch league. The girl I bowled against tonight had a 102 handicap. So what? As long as I hit my average the chances of getting beat are greatly reduced. And if my opponent can bowl over average and I can't, then they deserve to win.

[bowl1820]

. How the hell does a team with the fewest total pins win more games than anyone else?

Because the other team didn't bowl good enough and lost.
A team with the lowest average in the league, could just bowl their average and win every point, every night of the league and win the league and still have the lowest pin count if the teams they bowled those nights bowled low and lost. just because they have low total pins doesn't mean they couldn't have won games.

[TheSheibs]

I believe you but look at your other post again.. The team that is in second place is in second instead of first because of my team. Going into last night, the first and second place teams were tied for first place. We actually had some handicap pins given to us and we were able to narrowly get out of it with three wins. But the wins where very close, first two by 25-27 pins and the third game that we lost was lost by 11 pins.

Something does sound strange with what you are describing but may I am just misinterpreting it. Is there any chance you can scan and post a standing sheet? Just use marker to redact the peoples names.

It is actually posted on leaguesecretary.com and can be accessed by anyone, with or without a login. Here is the link: http://www.leaguesecretary.com/aclassic_bowling_center/alane_lovers_jubilee/bowling/league/62556/2012/U/8/leaguefilesstandings.aspx

[TheSheibs]

What doesn't sound right is where he said "we were able to narrowly get out of it with three wins"

Then in the next sentence he say's they won 2 games and lost the third. "the third game that we lost was lost by 11 pins"

If you lose one game out of three, that means you won two games not three.

Sorry, we get a win or lose for the series totals as well. So there are 4 wins/loses per night. That is how we won three out of four. Sorry for the confusion.

[TheSheibs]

The first post today TheSheibs said they were given the pins and then in the later post said they gave the other team pins. Not quite sure how that works as you can't get and give at the same time.
I don't usually get many pins, if any and don't really care. What I don't understand is this; if you don't like handicap then just bowl in a scratch league. The girl I bowled against tonight had a 102 handicap. So what? As long as I hit my average the chances of getting beat are greatly reduced. And if my opponent can bowl over average and I can't, then they deserve to win.

To clearify. My team usually gives the team we are bowling against that night pins. However, with bowling against the team we did, which had a slightly higher team average then us, we were able to get 61 pins. Looking at the totals, those pins is what pushed us above the other teams scores to have the wins we did. Third game had my whole team kind of beat and we didn't do as well since we were all trying very hard to beat the team we bowled against since they pretty much have dominated the entire season. They also have one guy who is trying to get his average up to get his "pro" card. So just him alone makes that team tough to beat.

[TheSheibs]

Because the other team didn't bowl good enough and lost.
A team with the lowest average in the league, could just bowl their average and win every point, every night of the league and win the league and still have the lowest pin count if the teams they bowled those nights bowled low and lost. just because they have low total pins doesn't mean they couldn't have won games.

The main reason for this comment was because they went from 5 place to, after last night, first place. I looked at the past weeks results and every time they do not total over 700 except every once in a while. they also have only won a game by 100 pins over their opponent once. The rest of the time their wins have been by around 50 pins. How does a team consistently win by 50 pins ALMOST all the time? Especially with a wide range of averages across the league. I know that some nights a person is really on and the stars are aligned just right to allow them to have one hell of a game. But to even beat the team in last place by 50 pins. It makes me wonder what is going on with that team.


SORRY for the separate posts. I just wanted to make sure that I covered all the misunderstandings that people brought up, and that I replied to those who commented on my post.

[bowl1820]

How the hell does a team with the fewest total pins win more games than anyone else? Are they sandbagging? Could they have improved that much over the course of the season? I mean how the hell does a team with the fewest total pins, both scratch and handicap, end up in first place

Your league is a adult child league, with a 10 pin rule! Somebody was really paranoid about sandbagging there. And your figuring team handicap using 90% of the team difference.

In regard to team green they aren't sandbagging. You have a 10 pin drop and those guys averages are over their entering averages, that's not sandbagging.
The Roll another 1 team half their team is just bowling average and the other halfs averages are below the ten pin drop. that's why they lost . Not that little 15 handicap team green had.


Those league rules are something. The way the award rules read one person could conceivably win all of them and Subs can win league prizes but not have to pay into the prize fund.

[Hampe]

Seems kind of weird to have both an individual handicap AND a team handicap....

[bowl1820]

Seems kind of weird to have both an individual handicap AND a team handicap....

Not really on leagues that use the Team difference for handicap. You have to a way to figure the individual handicap awards like high game,series etc.

[Mike White]

Back when I first started in Adult leagues I bowled in a competitive Mens HDCP league that used 66 2/3 % HDCP.
The though was that the higher average bowler had earned his 33 1/3% advantage by putting in the time to become the higher average bowler.

I don't know if that would apply anymore. Take a 140 bowler with "cheap" equipment, put them up against their clone who has the resources to buy the "best" ball available.
They still throw the ball the same, but who is likely to average higher?

This is how bowling ball wars get started.

If you are fairly new to the game your living in post apocalyptic times and don't even know it.

[J Anderson]

Back when I first started in Adult leagues I bowled in a competitive Mens HDCP league that used 66 2/3 % HDCP.
The though was that the higher average bowler had earned his 33 1/3% advantage by putting in the time to become the higher average bowler.

I don't know if that would apply anymore. Take a 140 bowler with "cheap" equipment, put them up against their clone who has the resources to buy the "best" ball available.
They still throw the ball the same, but who is likely to average higher?

This is how bowling ball wars get started.

If you are fairly new to the game your living in post apocalyptic times and don't even know it.

When I started bowling in '75 the handicap in that league was 80% based on 200. When I became a team captain I found out that one of the league "rituals" was for Bob P. one of the other captains, to propose raising the handicap to 90%. It would always get voted down with only one vote in favor. Several years ago, awhile after Bob had passed away, this league raised the handicap to 90%. Last year we realized that the basis needed to be at least as much as the high average, and we changed to 100% of 210. Lowest average team finished first, highest ave.- fifth out of eight, second highest-third, and third highest- dead last. On the last night the first place team took all seven points. Had they lost all 7 they would have finished second.

[TheSheibs]

Your league is a adult child league, with a 10 pin rule! Somebody was really paranoid about sandbagging there. And your figuring team handicap using 90% of the team difference.

In regard to team green they aren't sandbagging. You have a 10 pin drop and those guys averages are over their entering averages, that's not sandbagging.
The Roll another 1 team half their team is just bowling average and the other halfs averages are below the ten pin drop. that's why they lost . Not that little 15 handicap team green had.


Those league rules are something. The way the award rules read one person could conceivably win all of them and Subs can win league prizes but not have to pay into the prize fund.

Yeah, I've read the league rules and they just seem to make things way more complicated then it needs to be. Such as your average cannot drop more than 10 pins below your book average. since this is my first year on this league I will hold off on trying to change things. Seems like the rules really need to be rewritten, one of these days.

[billf]

Those are some strange rules. If absent you don't pay full amount, subs eligible for prizes..wow!
Another part I personally disagree with is a person being able to win more than one individual award. Leagues with that rule seem to have one bowler who really cleans up.
The rule about your average not being able to drop more than 10 pins below your book average; that's designed to keep people from sandbagging the first part of a season and then just laying it on everybody the rest of the way. I'm not too sure how well it works.

[MICHAEL]

The only good handicap is NO HANDICAP!! Bowl with people of the same ability, or close to it! There is no way to make it fair with the millions of sandbagger’s that are out there! People,,, ONE ON one! Life is that way! No one has ever said it was fair! Do the Pros’s have handicap,,,,, NO! I even dislike handicap parking that sooooooooo many people take advantage of! I was given a permit by my doctor to have one, but I ‘ll be damn if I ever will use it! I have too much pride to ask for special parking privileges. People LIFE IS NOT a LEVEL Playing Field,,, why,,, expect it from bowling, or any sport!
I know no once cares what I think,,,, but my thoughts are…… scratch!!! You win…. GREAT!! You lose, that’s life!
Maybe leagues where people are put with others, that have same bowling skills! I don’t like the present system… amen!! lol

[bjeffe1234]

As long as it is not 100% the higher handicapped team still has to bowl above average to beat the lower handicapped team when they bowl average. I'm in the high 170's and in the leagues that I bowl in I have a lot of bowlers with higher averages and a lot with lower averages. Would I bowl in a scratch league where most of the bowlers have a higher average than me. Yes, I would but most bowlers won't. Especially beginners. Unless it's a league with no prize fund. They would be just throwing money away. I feel that having a fair (one that is not set at 100%) handicap system in place helps to grow the sport.

[MICHAEL]

And example, We all know who the fast man in the world is in the 100 meter dash! He will, and does win 95 percent of the time. So that others that go up against him, will run, lets give them a 5 yd, 7.5 yard, ect lead out of the box…. Does this seem fair. NO. Hay I am almost 64, and I don’t want any handicap at all!! If a better man/woman beats me…. ((I live with it LOL)). This society we live in that in so many things is always trying to level the playing field, is not something I agree with personally.
Why does it have to be level in bowling?? Is it in any other sport,,, boxing,,, ( should one boxer have much thicker gloves, then the other that can hit harder, in race car driving should one car with the best driver have his engine modified so that it doesn’t go as fast, as maybe a lesser driver. I could go on and ON,,, and ON!
Why in bowling does it exist? ( I am just and average bowler, but I would not feel good about getting HELP, Hell, I either beat the person, or they beat me!
I remember my wife and me getting beat by a team that got 42 pins,,,, not a lot, but enough to beat us
3 out of 4. I remember him coming up to us and saying? ( Well … I guess we were the better bowlers today!) My reply was. ( No not today, or any other day are you a better bowlers! Take away the give me pins and you’re both loser’s!)
It was the cocky way he bragged about beating us.
Bowling should not be about so much a level playing field, but personal goals, and achievement! You only WIN,,,, when you WIN!!
NO handicap is the only good handicap! In My humble opinion, from a guy that doesn’t need level playing fields.
I think people should have access to all bowlers that want to bowl on leagues, and averages of like bowlers should be paired up.
I am bowling on a league right now where all the bowlers are about 210 plus!! It doesn’t keep me from bowling with them,,, I know that on some good days I will win,,,,, but most of the time they will kick my butt,,, but ,,,,, that’s LIFE, and I get over it! LOL……. (

[bowl1820]

in race car driving should one car with the best driver have his engine modified so that it doesn’t go as fast, as maybe a lesser driver.
Let's see Restrictor plates, Rev limiters, limits on the displacement and air intake mouth dimension to make all the cars equal = "Handicap"

Handicapping is used in scoring many games and competitive sports, including go, chess, croquet, golf, bowling, polo, basketball, and track and field events.

[backahead]

The only good handicap is NO HANDICAP!! Bowl with people of the same ability, or close to it! There is no way to make it fair with the millions of sandbagger’s that are out there! People,,, ONE ON one! Life is that way! No one has ever said it was fair! Do the Pros’s have handicap,,,,, NO! I even dislike handicap parking that sooooooooo many people take advantage of! I was given a permit by my doctor to have one, but I ‘ll be damn if I ever will use it! I have too much pride to ask for special parking privileges. People LIFE IS NOT a LEVEL Playing Field,,, why,,, expect it from bowling, or any sport!
I know no once cares what I think,,,, but my thoughts are…… scratch!!! You win…. GREAT!! You lose, that’s life!
Maybe leagues where people are put with others, that have same bowling skills! I don’t like the present system… amen!! lol

I'll second that amen. I'm not a good bowler yet but I don't want or like the handicap I get. I don't mind losing at all, that is what drives me to get better.

[J Anderson]

Let's see Restrictor plates, Rev limiters, limits on the displacement and air intake mouth dimension to make all the cars equal = "Handicap"

Handicapping is used in scoring many games and competitive sports, including go, chess, croquet, golf, bowling, polo, basketball, and track and field events.

You forgot horse racing where the better horse carries more weight.

[TheSheibs]

ummm...How is handicap used in scoring basketball??? or Chess for that matter? I only ask the chess part because I don't know how chess is scored.

[bowl1820]

ummm...How is handicap used in scoring basketball??? or Chess for that matter? I only ask the chess part because I don't know how chess is scored.

A handicap (or "odds") in chess is a way to enable a weaker player to have a chance of winning against a stronger one. There are many kinds of such handicaps, such as material odds, extra moves (i.e. the weaker player can play the first x number of moves at the beginning of the game), extra time on the chess clock, and special conditions (such as requiring the odds-giver to deliver checkmate with a specified chess piece or pawn). Various permutations of these, such as "Pawn and two moves", are also possible.

See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_handicap

[MICHAEL]

Viva la Revolution!!!! We bowler’s that don’t want handicap unite!!! Its time to take the pin’s by their heads and say: “ We are mad as Hell,,, and we aren’t going to take it any more” ( from another movie bill,,, know the name?? lol.
Be a Man/Woman! If you bowl low scores,,,,, so what??? If it’s the best you can do so be it! Why have the bowling god give you huge amounts of pins to level the playing field. I am not a kid, but in my days that was called stacking the deck!! We are bring up a generation of kids that ALL THINK THEY ARE SPECIAL, no matter how damn dumb they are! If your dumb, your dumb!! Live with it! I know I do!! Bowling should be a sport of the Scratch bowling! If you never win, so what? Do YOU REALLY Fill Good when you beat a guy/gal that bowled a 234, and you had a 175, but because the,( Bowling Level Field Fair Play Act),,, you win!! Did you REALLY win!!! Did you Really!!
As most of you know my thoughts on handicap!! I will refrain from making any more comments!!
If I ruffled any people with large handicaps that feel good beating better bowlers, (which I am not), well get over it! That’s What America Is All About!! Did you really beat the better bowler???
Handicaps are like delusional thinking!! Your deluding yourself into believing you actually beat the guy that won! Lol….. LOL ()

[bowl1820]

A Simple solution is already in place If someone doesn't like handicap. They can Bowl in a scratch League.

It has always amazed me all the griping about handicap there is. Bowler's could easily bowl in a scratch league, nobody forces you to bowl in a handicap league or tournament, but they insist on doing it and then start griping.

"Oh there's no scratch league here, we'd like to have one, but the house won't do it" I bet if you went to the manager and said we enough people for X number of teams, they'd set up a league.

"there's no money in scratch" that might be true,but if your in it for the sport, money don't matter, but if your trying to get rich by bowling . It's not going to happen so don't worry about there being no money in it.

[MICHAEL]

A Simple solution is already in place If someone doesn't like handicap. They can Bowl in a scratch League.

It has always amazing me all the griping about handicap there is. Bowler's could easily bowl in a scratch league, nobody forces you to bowl in a handicap league or tournament, but they insist on doing it and then start griping.

"Oh there's no scratch league here, we'd like to have one, but the house won't do it" I bet if you went to the manager and said we enough people for X number of teams, they'd set up a league.

"there's no money in scratch" that might be true,but if your in it for the sport, money don't matter, but if your trying to get rich by bowling . It's not going to happen so don't worry about there being no money in it.


If your talking to me, bowling for money, YOUR talking to the wrong guy!! I bowl for what I think the true reason for bowling should be,,,( THE SPORT).

What I think is fair to bowlers is for the bowling establishments to put bowlers into maybe 3 catagories, low, average, and high scores!

Put your leagues togerther, by grouping players that havereasonably close averages!!

I will look for scratch leagues, thanks for the advise! I don't want ANY hand-me-downs! When a better man/woman beat's me,,, I am big enough to say, Great game, enjoyed watching you kick my butt!! But watch out,,, I am going to get YOU next time!!

Money, sandbagers, ect ect... no problem when you bowl scratch! I guess it was the way I was brought up! We will just have to agree to disagree!

I am on a handicap money 1000.00 14 week league, but If we win, ( my wife and Me) I will donate the money to charity!! I would not feel right taking it!!
ONLY reason I am on this handicap league is Dude talked me into to it, and we both wanted to see one another hit those goals,,,, 300,,, 700,, 800!

He, Dude, might even win the 1000.00. And if he does it will be without handicap, and I am sure he will keep the money with a clear consious!

[bowl1820]

If your talking to me, bowling for money, YOUR talking to the wrong guy!! I bowl for what I think the true reason for bowling should be,,,( THE SPORT).

No I'm not talking to you Mike, I'm just commenting on the general situation.


What I think is fair to bowlers is for the bowling establishments to put bowlers into maybe 3 catagories, low, average, and high scores!

Put your leagues togerther, by grouping players that havereasonably close averages!!

Okay "categories" in bowling those are called Division's and they have them.

Like in the National's tournament which has two divisions: Classified for
bowlers with 180 and under averages (360 combined doubles average, 900
combined team average) and Regular for bowlers with averages 181 and
higher.

You can set up a league with average-based divisions, so bowlers are matched up according to skill, not age or gender.


Here you want a fun format take a look at this.


Survivor

The "Survivor" league format is a unique, fun, versatile and competitive USBC Sport Bowling experience originated by Mark Robey at Skore Lanes in Taylor, Mich. The league's name and internal concepts are based on the popular network TV show of the same name. Survivor bowlers battle in a 14-week league that is comprised of individual match play competition, an individual stepladder tournament, team competition and a team tournament. Bowlers of any average can join Survivor; the league's unique format allows all bowlers to enjoy very competitive matches.



How does Survivor work?



For the first six weeks, individual bowlers battle in a head-to-head, three-game match. Points are awarded for each game won plus totals. Each week bowlers are separated into "tribes" based on their averages. Within each tribe, bowlers are ranked based on their individual winning percentages.



On the seventh week, bowlers compete in a match play tournament. Tribes hold match play competition to determine champions of each division, named for the four suits in a deck of playing cards. These four champions compete for the title of "Ultimate Survivor."



In preparation for the team competition, a draft is held. The leading average bowlers become team captains and draft fellow Survivors to make even teams for the team competitions.



In weeks eight through 13, the focus shifts to team play with Survivor bowlers on these drafted teams bowling for the right to win their portion of the team prize fund, and the title of Survivor Team Champion.



The 14th week is a Baker team tournament. This format calls for head-to-head competition among seeded teams with bowlers from each team alternating frames until the Ultimate Team Survivors are crowned

[Hampe]

What I think is fair to bowlers is for the bowling establishments to put bowlers into maybe 3 catagories, low, average, and high scores!

Put your leagues togerther, by grouping players that havereasonably close averages!!
This is how the "company sport" league I play in is, and it's one of the things I really like about it. There are 5 small 7-8 team leagues A-E. A is the best players and E is for the new guys and super casual bowlers. If you win your league one season, you move up to the next league, and the last place team from the league above moves down. This way you're always playing against people around your ability (well, your team's composite ability anyway).

The only thing I hate about the league (and I'm not the only one....I think it's going to be voted on this year if we remove it) is that there is an antiquated "women's handicap", where women get a 10 pin handicap regardless of ability. This means if you are 4 guys playing a team of 4 ladies (of the same ability level), you're down 40 pins each game right from the start! Lame!

[MICHAEL]

Survivor League


That looks like a Well thought out,,, FUN league!! I like that,,, I might take that system to our lanes, and see if their is interest, THANKS!

[MICHAEL]

This is how the "company sport" league I play in is, and it's one of the things I really like about it. There are 5 small 7-8 team leagues A-E. A is the best players and E is for the new guys and super casual bowlers. If you win your league one season, you move up to the next league, and the last place team from the league above moves down. This way you're always playing against people around your ability (well, your team's composite ability anyway).

The only thing I hate about the league (and I'm not the only one....I think it's going to be voted on this year if we remove it) is that there is an antiquated "women's handicap", where women get a 10 pin handicap regardless of ability. This means if you are 4 guys playing a team of 4 ladies (of the same ability level), you're down 40 pins each game right from the start! Lame!



Paul, that’s more to my liking then the standard handicap system used around here. I think creativity is what is needed to help rejuvenate the game! There are ways to create a level playing field, without giving pin’s to people that shouldn’t get them.
We have on our seniors league, a couple REALLY cool ladies in their mid 80’s. I enjoy watching them bowl very much. One throws a 6 lbs ball, and it sometimes takes 45 minutes for the ball to get down the lane, but you know what,,,,,,, when that damn ball gets there its almost always right on target!!!!!
Both of the ladies I am talking about are good bowlers,,,, ( not high scores, only due to the light balls they have to use now). Many a time they will hit that pocket PERFECT only to have the ball deviate due to being so light)
I think their averages are in the low 100’s , but again only because of light balls.
They are not bowling for money, but for the pure pleasure of bowling! They don’t care about handicap, they just enjoy having a great game with people they enjoy being around.
I am beginning to see that these thoughts of better systems have been well thought out already! Some I will look into, and see if there is any interest! Thanks for the INFO!

[MICHAEL]

It will have a huge bearing on your teams ability to FAIRLY play one another! It will all be dictated by what you decide at your First League Meeting! What is your leagues handicap, if any! I was on, and will be again this year an awesome team!

We would give up almost 300 pins to some teams, but in the end we almost always over came the handicap! We were in first from the beginning, and never lost it! At one point mid way through we had a 16 game lead!

My feeling is that a good team will always win out over a high handicap team, unless their is serious sandbagging on the team you are bowling.

What I have noticed is that sandbagging happens most often on high money leagues, where the top teams get most of the pot! I have, this last summer bowled on a Top Gun league, and did see first hand, sandbagging! It was a two person league, big bucks, almost all the bowers top guns. One example, happed with a female bowler throwing gutter balls toward then end of game 3, that they had won, to keep her average down! OOOOO , it was spare shots, but easy ones that she had not missed all night! So,,, it seems the high money leagues foster a lot of sand!!!

On the leagues where the money is evenly distributed, and the increments are not that much from top to bottom, much less Bowl-Baggers!!! lol

MY THOUGHTS HAVE evolved as you might notice since last year LOL funny the difference a year can make!! (:)

[swingset]

No handicaps are fair. Anything that gives someone points that they have not earned by scoring could be considered fair...unless the idea of "winning" is to give everyone a prize.

I understand why they exist, but "fairness" and handicaps don't belong in the same sentence.

[swingset]

A Simple solution is already in place If someone doesn't like handicap. They can Bowl in a scratch League.

It has always amazed me all the griping about handicap there is. Bowler's could easily bowl in a scratch league, nobody forces you to bowl in a handicap league or tournament, but they insist on doing it and then start griping.

"Oh there's no scratch league here, we'd like to have one, but the house won't do it" I bet if you went to the manager and said we enough people for X number of teams, they'd set up a league.

"there's no money in scratch" that might be true,but if your in it for the sport, money don't matter, but if your trying to get rich by bowling . It's not going to happen so don't worry about there being no money in it.

For some people, scratch leagues are almost impossible to join. I'm one of those people, I work night shift M-F and it's almost unheard of to have scratch leagues on weekends. The only one I've seen is for seniors, and I'm to young to join. There's simply no way to get the weeknight scratch bowlers to move to the weekends, or the weekend handicappers to drop that antiquated "I wanna win some money too" BS from the 1950's.

I don't like handicaps, but I have no choice. It's a silly outmoded crutch for a sport that helped people legitimize the gambling/purse aspect of a weekly league. Otherwise, it makes no sense and degrades the "sport" when players are punished for their skill, or artificially advanced because of their lack of it. And, I say that as a 190 average bowler who usually gets a little handicap. I never want it.

No other sport I've ever played included handicaps. Why would they? You're supposed to earn your score by actually scoring. The only exceptions are golf and bowling, both of which use handicaps to make the quasi-gambling more enticing.

[J Anderson]

For some people, scratch leagues are almost impossible to join. I'm one of those people, I work night shift M-F and it's almost unheard of to have scratch leagues on weekends. The only one I've seen is for seniors, and I'm to young to join. There's simply no way to get the weeknight scratch bowlers to move to the weekends, or the weekend handicappers to drop that antiquated "I wanna win some money too" BS from the 1950's.

I don't like handicaps, but I have no choice. It's a silly outmoded crutch for a sport that helped people legitimize the gambling/purse aspect of a weekly league. Otherwise, it makes no sense and degrades the "sport" when players are punished for their skill, or artificially advanced because of their lack of it. And, I say that as a 190 average bowler who usually gets a little handicap. I never want it.

No other sport I've ever played included handicaps. Why would they? You're supposed to earn your score by actually scoring. The only exceptions are golf and bowling, both of which use handicaps to make the quasi-gambling more enticing.

Makes one wonder how many would quit bowling if the prize money went away, teams bowled for the pride of winning, and only the unofficial side pots and brackets remained? I'm pretty sure that ball manufacturers and pro shops would see a big drop in sales, having spent all of my winnings from last season between reconditioning two balls and buying a new Roto-Grip Shatter.

[GoodGravy]

So the question is "Is it Fair"????

That is an interesting question since "Fair" is a highly subjective term in the first place. From a straight competitive standpoint, there is nothing more Unfair than to give a lesser player an artificial advantage to compete with a higher skilled player. What is the motivation to get any better, or to achieve any level of expertise if you can just be handed points because you stink. It is just like the ridiculous notion that in kids sports leagues there is the 'we don't keep score because all the kids are winners for just trying' attitude...John Wayne is turning over in his grave...

Having said that, the handicap system gives the appearance that the bowling community as a whole is more interested in creating an environment where the average and less than average joe can be enticed to enter a league. It keeps the general interest up and keeps the coffers of the league full.

So overall, considering that the handicap system gives the impression that there is a way for new and under-skilled bowlers to compete in league play, I guess some would consider is 'fair'. As a final thought, if somebody out there is really that good and the concept of playing in a league where there is a handicap is causing them grief, take your bad self and get your PBA card and go for it!

[Eternal Bowler]

This topic always seems to come up everywhere I go in what I like to call "the bowling portion of the Internet"...because it never seems to come up in real life. :p

With that being said (or maybe not actually being said, but typed :cool: ...see what I did there?), however, I'm the kind of bowler who genuinely wants to improve. I look at handicap as sort of an obstructive number. I remember not that long ago when my handicap was higher than my average...of course it's been over a year since that was the case. We're talking a 90% of 200 handicap scale here.

Of course, the youth tournaments had different handicap systems from the youth leagues (at least ours, anyway); one tournament was 80% of 210 and another was a whopping 90% of 210.

I'm a newbie so I improved a ridiculous amount over both league seasons I've bowled in (2011-2012 and 2012-2013)...went from averaging in the 40s (after 3 games) to 78 in my first league and from 96 (after 3 games) to 120 in my second. Between those two seasons...well, you do the mathematics as to how much I improved. I can assure just about anyone with any doubts at all, I was not sandbagging at all, heh.

I don't think anyone seriously considered me to be a sandbagger. My team last season did finish in last place, despite quite a bit of handicap we got. I was so livid that despite all those times I raised my average (and I was the anchor, too...yep, I did have the highest average as well), I couldn't pull my team together. I think my team (a different one from last season) had a better season when I was the lead-off (finished with second lowest average) in my first year, but my memory's very fuzzy as to anything relating to that year.

Thus, handicap is not something to be proud of in my opinion; handicap to me is like a golf score; you want to get it as low as possible.

Whew, that was a whoppingly long post...sorry about that.

[dnhoffman]

I just want to be a scratch bowler.... So close, yet so far away.

[DrOcktagon]

I don't think there's anything unfair about the current handicap system. IMO it keeps things pretty level and competitive across varying skill levels. However, I do think scratch is the only real way to go. Bowling is a sport just like any other; the better bowler/team should be the victor. Obviously not everyone is skilled enough to bowl scratch - your average league bowler wouldn't stand a chance without a handicap - so there will always be a place for handicap bowling.

But if you make the decision to bowl on a handicap league you know what that entails going into it, so it doesn't make much sense to complain about handicaps being unfair.

It is kinda weird though. Are there even any other sports that have a system like this in official competition? Most sports are usually just about who's the most skilled, not who's the most consistent and/or improved.

[Hampe]

It is kinda weird though. Are there even any other sports that have a system like this in official competition? Most sports are usually just about who's the most skilled, not who's the most consistent and/or improved.Well, at the highest levels of bowling there are no handicaps, it's only the recreational level that has it and that's only to make it interesting/competitive among vastly different skill levels. Also, other sports do have handicaps in some form.....a salary cap in team sports is a kind of handicap. In a lot of team sports in European countries there is a limit to how many foreign players you're allowed to put on the field at a time....that can also be seen as a kind of handicap.

For me, a fair handicap is 60% of the difference of the highest players in the tournament/league. So if you have a bunch of players in your league who average 220, 60% of 220 minus your average (a 180 avg player would have 24 hcp). The better player still has the advantage, while the lower skill player at least has a chance to win.

[bowl1820]

It is kinda weird though. Are there even any other sports that have a system like this in official competition? Most sports are usually just about who's the most skilled, not who's the most consistent and/or improved.

Polo:
Here, it is based in goals. A rating between two and ten is assigned, based on the determination of the worth of the player to the team. The cumulative individual ratings of the players determines the current handicap for the whole team. At this point, the handicap for both of the competing teams is compared, and the difference between the teams results in the award of points to the lower rated team before the competition begins.

Horse Racing: Handicap Races:
A handicap is based on the basic concept that different horses have different levels of ability. In a handicap, each horse is assigned a certain weight, in the hope that heavier weights will slow more accomplished athletes, while lighter weights will give less talented horses an edge. Weights are assigned by a handicapper, an official who ranks horses on the basis of their past race performances.

Archery:
In Great Briton The Grand National Archery Society runs two systems of classification: the main Classifications (for indoor and outdoor shooting) and Handicaps. To do this, they produce tables of scores for all recognised rounds and an archer's classification and handicap can be worked out from their scores, normally by a club's Record Officer.

For indoor rounds, an archer has a classification represented by a letter from A to H, with A being the best and H the worst. This applies for both seniors and juniors.

Trap Shooting:
Each time a competitor wins an event or shoots a score of 96 or higher, s/he may earn additional yardage (also known as "getting a punch"), and must thereafter shoot from farther away from the traphouse.

[JJKinGA]

A lot of fairness has to do withwhat the league is like and wha tyou are trying to accomplish.

Usually we take a very simplifed approach - which is to make everyone have an equal chance of winnign on average. (Or 90% of equal).
the better bowlers have less days when they really suck so they ahve an advantage. Teh scoring system makes it really hard for high average (210+) bowlers to get huge pins above average night so they suffer a bit to the wildly streaker intermediate skill player.

I think for most handicap leagues with a range in skill level that wants a competitve environment, the goal is to create an environment where no one feels they can't compete but that still encourages them to beocme better. So I think the target is to bring everyone up to a passing level but leave room at the top so better si still better.

I like the idea of handicaps at 100% of 185. This way the 140 average bowler and the 160 average bowler and the 180 average bowler are on equal footing relative to their average. But they are still 15 pins behind the 200 average bowler and 30 pins behind the league best at 215. This make incentive to improve. A great night will still beat the hgih average bowlers, but a good night wil not.

[josheaton16]

i think handicap is fair, if a team is high average it shouldn't matter. I bowled in a mens league a couple years ago and 3 people were new bowlers. So we always got tons of handicap and still finished dead last. Against one team we even got over 400 pins a game!! And still lost. So the advantage is definitely with the high average bowlers still. Our handicap was 90% of the difference in team averages by the way

[e-tank]

The better i get the more it kinda gets to me sometimes when i team only beats us because of their handicap but i have to realize that not even a year ago i was a 120 avg bowler with a large handicap. It may not be fair but the handicap is what lets less skilled bowlers have fun and break into the sport. I probably wouldnt have quit if there was only scratch leagues because im always working to get better, but not everybody has that mentality.

[GoodGravy]

Interesting Update:

We had our league captains meeting a few days ago, and the heated topic of discussion was where to set the handicap this year. As I think it is usual in most leagues, we have a bell shaped distribution curve for our teams, a small amount way on top, most in the middle and a converse small amount on the bottom.

Well, the group spoke up and said they wanted to 'have a chance' against the few higher teams, so based on popular vote ( I voted Nay) we moved out handicap to 80% of the league leader's 230. This is shaping up to be quite an interesting league year...I'm seeing a ton of over 300 handicap games in the near future.....

[Perrin]

Most of the leagues in this area use 90% of anywhere from 200 to 250 depending on the higher bowlers in the league.

as long as everyone in the league receives the same handicap (no-one averages at or above the cap) then I consider it 'fair'

I've been on both sides of the debate.
I beat a guy that bowled a 279 last year because I had more handicap and bowled a 264

But I have been beat bowling 230 by a guy that shot 200 but he averages 150

It's like pin carry. sometimes you get that messenger off the wall to trip the 10 other times the second hit on a pin just stands it back up...