Integrity damaged by technology?

[liowkc]

Bowling purists have sometimes argue that the integrity of the sport has been undermined by technolgical innovations in balls, pinsetter and lane surface which normally lead to inreasing scores.

Do you think scores are being improved artifically by technology rather than skill?

[kev3inp]

Personally, I think the high scores are a product of a lot of things. Better equipment, easier oil patterns, livelier pins, and increased knowledge all contribute.

[zman]

Most definitely technology.
Between the balls and lane conditions the game is way to easy.
I've been averaging around 220 I haven't practiced in years.
Last year high average in our league was 230 and that guy quite because
of lane conditions. What? How easy does he want it.
I walked down the line one night and watched guys throw the ball way out
it still comes back. Even if it's not right in the pocket the way the balls hit
they probably still get a strike.
One guy puts one in the pocket strike, next barely hits the headpin strike, next one cross over strike.
The pocket is huge.
It's crazy.
I miss the days when spares counted.

[TenPin]

Yes bowling technology has improved a lot over the last 20 years. Pinsetters actually place pins where they're suppose to be. Oiling machines can measure the amount of oil being laid on the lanes better. Pins are actually better than before too with their construction being more consistant with each other. Shoes with interchangeable soles and heels. Then the ball tech, the biggest advantage of them all, right?

Well here's how I can remember some of the things of 20 years ago. I can remember going to houses where the pinsetter would consistantly place pins off evey few frames. I can remember going to some houses that were oiling the lanes with a rag. I can remember when pins would break on the pindeck because they were either so old or poorly made they could not hold up to the thrashing they took. Bowling with shoes that made you wonder if you were going to slide or stick. I can also remember balls made of stuff that would do nothing more than go down the lane like a big glass marble.

So ya, technology has made the game easier, but you still have to throw the ball. You still need to get close to the pocket. You still have to have some idea of what you're doing. The game is not a gimmie, because if it was everyone would be averaging 220+. So instead of blaming technology for over inflated averages, ask for more challenging lane conditions and get off the THS. I know this much, many of you won't want to bowl thoughs type of lane conditions very long.

Oh ya, how many people here have had some kind of coaching too? Todays coach is well above the training level of coaches of yesterday. I don't mean the big guy coach, but the more down to earth everyday coach.

[kev3inp]

You hit the proverbial nail on the head. You still have to roll the ball.

I get a little upset at times because some houses don't lay out the oil the same way on the left as they do on the right. I had one "laneman" tell me he programs the machine to put a bunch of oil outside of 5 down the lane on the left side, but not the right, because he hates lefties. When I told him I was a lefty, he said he'd deny it if anyone asked and I should learn to bowl with the correct hand.

I'm glad whoever that was can roll 220's at will without practice, but I can't do it. I'd be willing to bet he's a spray and pray cranker who can get away with never hitting the same spot twice, but that's not "how I roll." If it's so easy, why bother doing it? There would be no challenge except to see how lucky you can get.

[zman]

TenPin - You make some good points. I didn't mean to put it all on technology. But the equipment has made the game easier. I would like to try a sport shot but. I've been bowling with the same guys for about 25 years on Friday's, that's the night we bowl and that's the shot that's out there. I know the majority of the league favors the THS so the shot won't change. It's still fun it's just crazy sometimes the scores that are shot.

kev3inp - I'm a lefty also, you bowl good you hear, the left sides easy, you bowl bad you hear, lefties suck, sometimes it's not easy being a lefty.:)
I'm not a spray and pray cranker, more of a down and in or tweener depending on the lanes.

[TenPin]

Hey zman, I didn't mean to sound off, but technology isn't the only or main culprit to over inflated averages. When you see averages at about 260-270, then question technology as the reason. Otherwise, tell your house you'd like to see more challenging lane conditions, I'm sure over inflated averages will drop then.

Hey Kev, my son is left handed and he has an awsome ball, if he pays attention. So smooth and effortless to the pocket. Makes me wish I were left handed, but alas I am not. I actually feel that left handed bowlers are more accurate than right handed bowlers too. The thing with right handed bowlers is they tend to have more revs on the ball which gives them more area to hit a mark or spot.

Also, if the lane guy told you that, I'd grab the House manager and drag him to the lanes. Then I'd make him check the lanes for consistancy (across and length). If the house gets a history of skewing the lanes oil pattern, they can lose their sanctioning and I'd make that point to the manager. This is why I check 2 things before I throw a ball too. 1) I want to make sure I will slide and 2) I look at the bottom of the lane and check where the oil is laid gutter to gutter. Gives me and idea of what I want to do from that point on.

TenPin

[kev3inp]

If the shot is there on the left side it does tend to stay, but if it's not, it never shows up. I guess it's just a huge lack of talent on my part, then, that I can't even maintain a 200.

The house where the "laneman" told me that would not allow me to walk down the gutter cap with or without accompaniment to check for myself. Since sanction visits are announced well in advance, and they say which pair they'll check, it's pretty obvious that they'll do what they can to make them pass. The management at that house is very rude to most of their league members, too. They don't care if we don't come back, they're pulling in their cash from cosmic, parties, and open bowling. The bathrooms are horrid, the bowler areas are filthy and the equipment doesn't work very well. But it's a Schumacker house, so I don't expect anything different.

I can see the pattern at the foul line area, but the area in question is downlane, and I can't see the contrast that far, even if I lay on the floor. I've tried.

[liowkc]

Call me old fashioned. I don't really like technology enhancing performance - it is akin to cheating in the Olympics by using steroids. I still prefer the good old days when skill is the critical factor.

[onefrombills]

technology enhancing performance changes everything we do. not just in sports but in everyday stuff we do. theres NO getting around it we can only adapt to it

[PSBA10]

This is a loaded question that unlike a coin has many sides. Back when I started bowling the lanes were oiled by hand. A good lane man was worth his weight in well.... Anyway, the houses that prospered had people who were capable of duplicating conditions lane to lane. Thus the advent of the oiling machine. Now ball manufacturers got involved because lane conditions were such that you could predict what you will be faced with. This was/is a continuing battle back and forth. More oil, a stronger ball - a stronger ball, more oil.

Right now I believe the bowling centers control the scoring pace. Let me make a comparison. Golf for example has seen technological advancements equal to or greater than bowling. The scoring on the golf course is still dictated by the greenskeeper. By placing the tees and pins in certain positions he can either make the course basically unplayable, or very easy. The golfer still has to make the shot though. Bowling centers with the microprocessor controlled oiling machines can do exactly the same as the greenskeeper. They can make the shot unplayable or easy. However, it is to the bowling center's benefit if the shot is relatively easy. Most league and recreational bowlers will keep coming back and laying their dollars down when they feel they have accomplished something. There are bowling centers that will deliver a challenging conditioin. The more skilled bowlers tend to gravitate to these centers because the condition will test their skill, thus the advent of the sport leagues and the PBAX leagues.

[TenPin]

Very well said PSBA10, the house controls the average. Higher averages equal happier bowlers which then equals more money spent. My house manager explained to me, when I asked about a more challenging league, there wasn't enough interest to develop one. He said he needed bowlers so he puts out the shot people like best, a simple one.

Although I have to admit, they need to change out the old pins with new ones. He said he knows they need to be replaced, but I guess the owner doesn't want to put up the money to get them. Maybe it's their way to hold averages down 10-15 pins.

Hey, Kev, I know it can be tough to prove and even if you did, would they really care? Probably not, but at least you can have some satisfaction that you proved it. See if they'll do an inspection on a league night unanounced? No way to prepare for that one if they oil the lanes like this all the time. I'm not sure what kind of oiling machine they use to oil with, but I bet they can inspect it to see how it is set up for the lanes. I know this much, it will come back to bite them if they do this all the time.

TenPin

[MICHAEL]

I think this is a GREAT thread posted in 2008,,, I think it bares another look, goes right in there with my thoughts on technology!

[billf]

But Mike, you want to compare technology and averages with a THS. I averaged 195 on a THS while BLIND. That just proves anybody can crank it, spray and pray, and score well. Try that on a real pattern. The same technology alters the oil pattern to make the shot a lot tougher. This wasn't the case years ago. The oil wasn't the factor that it is today. Why? Because it didn't have to be. As the balls got more advance (offense) so didn't the oiling procedures (defense). Like any sport, once the offense steps up and smashes barriers then eventually the defense comes up with a way to stop them.
Open bowling scoring is a joke and should not even be considered in this conversation. The business has to make the shot real easy to try and lure recreational bowlers back in. That's why we don't bowl on those patterns.

[MICHAEL]

I agree, even me, a guy from a small town in Poland can bowl a 298, in my first year of bowling! Was that skill,,, (no), just good equipment, and oil pattern that is very forgiving! (IT was a good clean game, that 298 except for that last throw,,, I go over it, and over it in my head every night before going to bed). Bill do you know a good shrink??
I, myself, really don’t care about high house pattern scores! REAL men do it on the sport pattern! I am more proud of that 274 I did on the turnpike a couple weeks ago, then all my other score put together! I like the challenge!!!!!! Trying to figure out angle, ball, speed, ect ect! That’s where the real fun is!! Waiting for tomorrow, Monday and bowing the U.S. Open is like Christmas Eve for me!! Can’t wait! Dude???? Where are YOU??? You are going to meet me there,,,,,,, RIGHT!!

[The German Shepherd]

I agree, even me, a guy from a small town in Poland can bowl a 298, in my first year of bowling! Was that skill,,, (no), just good equipment, and oil pattern that is very forgiving! (IT was a good clean game, that 298 except for that last throw,,, I go over it, and over it in my head every night before going to bed). Bill do you know a good shrink??
I, myself, really don’t care about high house pattern scores! REAL men do it on the sport pattern! I am more proud of that 274 I did on the turnpike a couple weeks ago, then all my other score put together! I like the challenge!!!!!! Trying to figure out angle, ball, speed, ect ect! That’s where the real fun is!! Waiting for tomorrow, Monday and bowing the U.S. Open is like Christmas Eve for me!! Can’t wait! Dude???? Where are YOU??? You are going to meet me there,,,,,,, RIGHT!!

I do believe that the blocked lanes have certainly made scores higher. All you need to do is look at the number of 300's and 800's thrown every year! I watch the videos of bowlers who love to make the ball HOOK. Many feel that this is how you measure the skill level of a bowler. Then you watch these videos a little closer and see that these bowlers miss 3 left and 3 right and still end up with strikes. Mama mia.

This past week I bowled 4 games on the US Open pattern. Right now, I am averaging 217.6something and I bowled scores of (in order)166/172/176/236 -a 771 for FOUR games, and I left feeling chastened and happy to get out alive.

Jay

[RoccoRock]

It's the same argument people make in golf. The glubs are so much better, the balls are better. These are the times we live in, every company wants to put out the latest and greatest, cause they know we all want the best. Would the game be better in we were all throwing plastic balls? I don't think so. Some of the challenge with technology is how to use it.

[The German Shepherd]

It's the same argument people make in golf. The glubs are so much better, the balls are better. These are the times we live in, every company wants to put out the latest and greatest, cause they know we all want the best. Would the game be better in we were all throwing plastic balls? I don't think so. Some of the challenge with technology is how to use it.

I agree with you but would suggest that the problem arises when the technology removes the challenge. Sure the argument holds in the sport of golf, but what if you had greens that sloped so that every putt had an automatic track to the hole? What would we be able to say about our sub-par rounds then?

Jay

[TheSheibs]

I think the advances made in the balls core and making it easier to hook the ball with no real skill is out allows those who do not have the knowledge of bowling(i.e. the guy who can get strikes but can't pick up a spare to save their life) are being given the advantage. These people are averaging higher than they were 10 or 20 years ago before the cores changed and the different oil patterns came out. It also changed the game for those who were able to average well before these advances were made.

[edpup316]

This is an disscussion that can be sumed up very easily. So golf, yes its tech advancments have made doing things like hitting 300+ yards drives easier but thats why courses have 600 yard par 5's and 500 yard par 4's now. What im trying to say is its not technologies fault for it being easier to get good scores its the houses that havnt changed to match the advancments in technology and the average joe bowler doesnt want to bowl on a difficult shot. Thats why there are PBA experience leagues and what not. I realize that a few of you guys dont have houses with those kinds of leagues but they still exsist.

As far as trying to get a house to change its shot; its way more difficult then its worth. I tried for a couple months to get the manger of my house to change the shot to soemthing more difficult. He finally gave in and said for the Summer leauges this year he was going to put down more oil and the patteren was similar to the kegel Main Street. That lasted for about 3 weeks. There was practiclly riots!!! People sending him emails about how they have bowled here for years and threatened to quit the league and go bowl somewhere else. Its was a nightmare.

[Mike White]

I have to believe the lane oil has a significant part in the inflated scores.
At this point I have only thrown a White Dot, so there isn't any ball technology
involved in my scores. That leaves Lane Surface (synthetic), Lane Oil, and Pins.

[MICHAEL]

I have only been bowling for about 2 1/2 years,,, never had the time while working and raising 3 boys! I do remember a few friends that bowled, and I do remember the yellow dot! Hot ball as I remember when it came out. You said you are still using it! Do you mind me asking what your average is using it! How old is that ball? I looked on your profile but did not see any data! Thanks..... Iceman

[MICHAEL]

Anyone have the data sheet on the Yellow Dot! Would be fun to look at anc compare to the newer balls!

[panbanger]

Oh technology has inflated scores for sure. No doubt. The same comparison can be made in many other sports though. Would you rather play tennis with a modern raquet or maybe use the famous T-2000 from the 70s?

Alot of amateur golfers today can hit the ball much farther than the pros could just 30 years ago, due to improvements in equipment. Doesn't mean that that they are better golfers though.

[Mike White]

I have only been bowling for about 2 1/2 years,,, never had the time while working and raising 3 boys! I do remember a few friends that bowled, and I do remember the yellow dot! Hot ball as I remember when it came out. You said you are still using it! Do you mind me asking what your average is using it! How old is that ball? I looked on your profile but did not see any data! Thanks..... Iceman

I am using a brand new White Dot, and currently averaging 212 with it.

Note: I've only got 14 games on the ball, and only 6 of those were in league. Thats 14 games after a 20 year layoff. Based on how I've thrown the ball, if it had been back on the old oil patterns, I doubt I'd be averaging more than 150.

The differences in oil pattern that I see is:

In the old days:
A pulled ball went thru the nose, or crossed over.
There was a board or two that would result in pocket shots that could carry.
If you got the ball wide by more than the board or two, you probably didn't get back to the head pin.

A small group of people could hit the pocket and throw messengers like almost everyone can now.

On todays condition (at least where I bowl at):
A pulled ball sits in the pocket, maybe a little light, but tends not to carry the 10. (again I'm using a White Dot).
That board to two seems to carry a higher percent than it used to. (again assuming a White Dot in use).
If the ball goes wide now, it hooks even more, going thru the nose leaving something ugly. (3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10, or 3-4-6-7-10 are a few I've left)

So the results of the mistakes seem to be reversed.
As long as you limit mistakes to pulls, I think the scores go up because of easier leaves, and a chance at luck carry.


As for the Columbia line of balls way back when...

The Blue Dot was the "go straight ball" When you measured the hardness, the durometer would say "ouch".
The White Dot hooked more than the Blue Dot, but thats like saying someone 5' is taller than someone 4' 11".
The Yellow Dot hooked even more, and again, more doesn't mean a lot.

In the late 80's my ball of choice was the Faball Nail (highly polished) I shot a lot of good scores with that ball.

I quit shortly after original reactive resin balls came around. Damn ball went straight in oil, then produced a shocking left turn when it hit dry. Never could get one under control. This was before the core technology played it's tricks.

The process of oiling the lanes back then wasn't "computerized" so few bowling centers had the info / talent to put out a high scoring condition.

[Mike White]

Oh technology has inflated scores for sure. No doubt. The same comparison can be made in many other sports though. Would you rather play tennis with a modern raquet or maybe use the famous T-2000 from the 70s?

Alot of amateur golfers today can hit the ball much farther than the pros could just 30 years ago, due to improvements in equipment. Doesn't mean that that they are better golfers though.

I'd prefer to play tennis with, and against people using a Jack Kramer wood racket. It was a more civilized game back when.

With the rackets of today, I'd stand waiting for my opponent to serve, then yell OUT. Since I couldn't see the ball, nor hear the ball (went by so fast), I'd have to go by smell.