drilling question

[diamondave]

:confused: let me know what you think of these 2 drillings the one with the pin above the ring finger is a gas mask core and the the other with the pin placement on the side of the ring finger is the Karma ball with a lightbulb core. they don't roll the same at allhttp://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/263959_1853909189897_1305824401_31679403_243654_a. jpg.
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/265154_1853906149821_1305824401_31679401_3138514_a .jpg

shouldn't the pin placement be the same on both balls? I am new to the whole different layouts produce different rolls. so I don't know if this is why my Karma ball is not consistant at all.
Thanks for any advice.
Dave

[The Mayor]

Dave,

It all depends on your PAP. Everyone rolls the ball different and so a layout will react differently for me than it will for you. There's no reason the layout on the Karma shouldn't work for you. It may not be the best layout choice, but you should be able to find some use for it. I'm thinking it's more of a surface issue than anything else. If I were you I'd take the coverstock to 2000 grit abralon with no polish. This will make the ball more consistent. It won't skid as much if it hits oil and it won't jump when it hits dry. Give that a shot and let us know how it works!

[diamondave]

Dave,

It all depends on your PAP. Everyone rolls the ball different and so a layout will react differently for me than it will for you. There's no reason the layout on the Karma shouldn't work for you. It may not be the best layout choice, but you should be able to find some use for it. I'm thinking it's more of a surface issue than anything else. If I were you I'd take the coverstock to 2000 grit abralon with no polish. This will make the ball more consistent. It won't skid as much if it hits oil and it won't jump when it hits dry. Give that a shot and let us know how it works!

thanks for the response I will try this and let you know the results.

[diamondave]

what a difference a cleaned up ball makes. I had been using rubbing alcohol, but I brought to a proshop and he used a oil remover and then wow did that make a difference. bought a bottle for myself. Last nights results 149, 193, 193 and 212.

[The Mayor]

Cool! Did you change the surface or just use the "oil remover"?

[diamondave]

I kind of buffed it up myself, after leauge I will get it done professionally. Turns out the wood lanes are really chewing up this ball. tons of scratches. It will be unreal when I get back to the synthetic lanes I am used to.

[JAnderson]

Wood lanes are generally going to change the surface of a ball quicker simply because they are softer and more abrasive than their urethane/synthetic counterparts.

Whiskey is 100% correct about the same layout rolling differently for two different bowlers. Heck, same layout and same ball and the same lane and same line can roll differently for two different bowlers. There are so many variables.

There are a bunch of good ball cleaners you can buy or you can make your own. Any pro shop should be able to help you clean and adjust the surface of your ball.

[diamondave]

Odd thing is both are mine. I brought the one with the pin over the finger with me when I got the other drilled. That is how the pro-shop guy drilled the other with the pin on the side. Oh well league is almost over, next week is position week. I have had an awesome time and gotten better even with this ball so when I get back to fall league comes. I have improved 24 pins on my average.

[Trex]

Dave, another thing to think about is.....From looking at those pictures, it's hard to tell but I will try to estimate the difference in Pin to cg distance between both balls just by looking at the picture and then try to give you an idea of the difference. The top picture shows a ball with the Pin above the ring finger and cg below....But the Pin to cg distance looks to be about 4 inches. .... The Karma ball looks to have a Pin to cg distance of about 2.5 to 3 inches. ...The ball driller in order to drill the Karma to have a similar layout would have had to drill the ring finger hole through the Pin in order for the cg to even be close to being in the same position as the other ball. If I were going to try and set up the karma the same as the gas mask core ball(without ordering a longer Pin ball) and working with what you have here...I would have drilled the Karma with the Pin above the bridge and cg below towards the grip center, then adjust the weight as needed/if needed. ....Even so, if both balls had the same layout, you will not get the same reaction because one ball has the gas mask core which is a heavier mass bias type Asymmetric core, and the karma is more of a symmetric type core and also the cover stock on each ball is not the same formulation even though they are both reactive.

So.....even if the core was the same on both balls, and lets say the cover stock were the same also...."Then there is the fact that one ball has a longer Pin to cg distance"...This alone will make a difference in ball reaction as the longer Pin to cg distance ball will go longer before it hooks than the shorter Pin to cg ball.

The longer the Pin to cg distance the longer the ball will go before making it's move, That is why a 4 inch to 5 inch Pin to cg distance ball will work better on short oil patterns, and a shorter Pin to cg ball will hook sooner making this ball better for longer patterns assuming you have two identical balls and the only difference is the Pin to cg distance.

The problem here in this situation is that you are comparing a Asymmetric core ball to the symmetric core ball, and to make the comparison even worse both balls are made by two different companies....So the cores are different and the cover stock formulation is different, the Pin to cg distance is different ...So even if both balls had the same Pin to cg distance and both were setup with the same layout as close as possible they still will not react the same.

So what I would take from all this is that you match up better with a Asymmetrical core ball drilled with the Pin above ring finger and cg below with mass bias to the right of the thumb.....This layout on this type ball works better for you than the symmetric core ball that has a layout that basically works good on house shots as opposed to tougher conditions.

The Karma ball and the way it is setup would work good for someone who has less hand, The Gas mask core ball you have and the way it is setup would work better for the bowler who has more revs such as the cranker type bowler!!

This is just my opinion according to my own experience and may not apply to everyone else, But I hope it is helpful in some way as to help you understand why you see such a big difference between both balls and there reaction differences.

The Karma is supposed to be the re-make of the Popular Danger Zone by Brunswick, this ball as great as it is on most conditions....May not be consistant on tougher patterns, especially if it is a condition that causes over/under type ball reactions!! ....In that case I can see why the other ball works better....The layout would work better in that situation and the cover stock and core combo would match up better also in that situation...meaning the gas mask core ball and the layout it has on it with the Pin being above the ring finger and the cg and mass bias position where it is.

Does this make any sense to you?? :)

Look at the video Below as this is a better comparison between balls made by the same company with different cover stocks, and or layouts, and the reaction differences.

(Notice this is only for educational purposes, I am not promoting any ball company or it's products)

http://www.900global.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=122&Itemid=213&pid=23

or

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnDROU_S7Ws&feature=related

Hope this helps.... :)

[kev3inp]

Hey, just what ball cleaner did you get? I'm always looking for a better one. :)

[JAnderson]

Kevin - remember, whatever ball cleaner you get, mix it with a little elbow grease :)

[kev3inp]

I'll have to get some more lube for my elbows. I use Ebonite Powerhouse, the "Perfect Clean" that came with my spinner, I still have some original Clean and Dull left, Neo Tack Hook It, and Ultimate Ultra Clean.

[diamondave]

Not sure what the pro shop used but I got a bottle of Kegel Revive Ball Cleaner. I thought who better to know how to clean the oil off then the maker of the oil machines.