which way do you go!!

[MICHAEL]

Ok,,, now I am confused! The DVD that came with my ball spinner says that on your most aggressive ball, with heavy oil you want a lower grit~ He even recommended a gray pad, which I think is around a 350-400. Why is a ball like the Manic delivered in box with a 4000? He says, If I get it correctly, the more oil, (with and aggressive ball), lower number grit. He goes to higher grit with dry lanes.
So say with the manic, on fresh oil, house pattern , what grit do you recommend? He shows a high grit aggressive ball sliding past the pocket, with the higher grit 1200-2000. Then he used the gray pad, and it kicks into the pocket.
I was told that aggressive balls need more oil, and to go 4000, and then even polish if that doesen’t work?
He said you need to experiment with (Your lane conditions), which I understand. But it seems to me he is recommending the opposite of what I have read on this site?
Which way do you go on heavy to medium oil with your aggressive ball? being a 3 type bowler?

[bowl1820]

Ok,,, now I am confused! The DVD that came with my ball spinner says that on your most aggressive ball, with heavy oil you want a lower grit~ He even recommended a gray pad, which I think is around a 350-400.
A "Scotch-Brite Nylon Pad" (which is what is what most bowlers have and come in the spinner starter kits) Lt.gray pad is around a 800 grit.

350-400 grit is what a gray "Scotch-Brite Hand Pad" is, they are not the same thing.

One thing to remember is Abralon pads, scotchbrite pads, wet/dry paper use different grit rating systems.
See my cross reference chart here:
http://home.earthlink.net/%7Elitefrozen/downloads/bowling_grit_chart.pdf

Why is a ball like the Manic delivered in box with a 4000?
It depends on the conditions the MFG. designed it for. 4000 Abralon is around a 1500 grit, so going to 800 grit gray pad isn't unreasonable for a oiler condition. Than the suggested MFG. condition.


He says, If I get it correctly, the more oil, (with and aggressive ball), lower number grit. He goes to higher grit with dry lanes.
As a general guide line, that's true coarse(Lower grit) for more oil, smoother(higher grit) for dry.


So say with the manic, on fresh oil, house pattern , what grit do you recommend?
You have to judge that from how the ball reacted with the factory surface on your condition.


He shows a high grit aggressive ball sliding past the pocket, with the higher grit 1200-2000. Then he used the gray pad, and it kicks into the pocket.
That could very well be, if the conditions were oily enough. The ball could slide past and you would need to give the ball more texture to handle the oil. A 2000 abralon pad is about a 1000 in the us system. So a 800 grit isn't that far away.


I was told that aggressive balls need more oil,
True


and to go 4000, and then even polish if that doesen’t work?
If the aggressive ball is hooking too much you would do that. Because the lane is too dry.


He said you need to experiment with (Your lane conditions), which I understand. But it seems to me he is recommending the opposite of what I have read on this site?
I'm just going to guess your just misinterpreting what he said, (Not hearing what was said myself.


Which way do you go on heavy to medium oil with your aggressive ball? being a 3 type bowler?
Not knowing what was meant by a type 3 bowler. It would all depend on how the ball reacted before.

[The German Shepherd]

Dude, you are an amazing source of info. Thank you for this...

J.

[billf]

Mike, I think you misunderstood something along the way. I don't remember a time on here that anybody said the opposite of your DVD. If the ball won't hook (and is thoroughly clean) you need more friction which means a rougher surface. If it hooks too much than less friction which is a smoother surface. The higher grits and polish are smoother. Also keep in mind, the more grits you hit as you work up to your final grit will provide a smoother looking ball. In another words, if you just went with gray pad then 4000 abralon it wouldn't appear as smooth as if you went gray, 500, 1000, 2000 then 4000.
Oil amounts are like trash in my opinion. One bowler's heavy oil lane is another bowler's dry lane. My treasure is your trash. Speed, rev rate, tilt and rotation all have an effect on the reaction, as you know. So if we both were on the same lane, using the same ball with the same surface, my reaction would or could be different than yours. That's where the fun is; matching the bowler, ball and lane conditions. When you get it right they think you're a genius. Miss by a little bit and you're a joke. Doing this without knowing the bowler and /or sometimes the lane conditions presents a real challenge.

[GeorgiaStroker]

The type 3 bowler remark refers to the system John Jameson from Innovative Bowling uses to rate bowlers according to their ball speed and rev rate. A type 1 bowler has a lot of revs but a low ball speed. A type 5 bowler has a lot of speed but a low rev rate. Type 3 bowlers have a ball speed and rev rate that are more equal. type 2 and 4 fall in between these types.

[billf]

What's great is when you ask a bowler and most say they have a low rev rate. Then when you check it their rev rate is over 350rpm with a speed around 13pmh

[MICHAEL]

Category of Bowler
Ok, the book has a scale of 1 to 5 (innovative guide book)
1. Rev rate totally dominates ball speed
2. Rev rate slightly dominates ball speed
3. Rev rate and ball speed match
4. Ball speed slightly dominates rev rate
5. Ball speed totally dominates rev rate
Compared to everyone else, do I roll the ball slow, medium, or fast.
Compared to everyone else, do I think I have lots of revs, medium amount of revs, or not many revs at all.
1. Ton of ball speed and very few revs. Category 5
2. Higher ball speed and could use more revs. Category 4
3. Medium ball speed and medium revs. Category 3
The guide goes on with several examples,,, it states that knowing which category you fit in will help adjust what bowling balls to purchase, and what surface will work best for THAT BOWLER.
I know speaking for myself that my biggest problem is the leaving the 10 pin. The book that came with my spinner says to add more surface One number grit more. It says to do this if you are hitting the pocket consistently but leaving 10 pins, swishing 7 pins, 8-10 splits, 2pins, 2,4,5, combination, pocket 7-10 so adding more surface is the lower number on the sandpaper, or more aggressive grit.
Very interesting information, Its starting to sink in!! I have one aggressive ball, and one medium, that being the Virtual Gravity nanno, and Undefeated. I think I will tweak them differently and see what happens.
Wow,,, Its going to be a BLAST working with the ball cover stock,,, making notes, and coming up with the right combination!!

[bowl1820]

The type 3 bowler remark refers to the system John Jameson from Innovative Bowling uses to rate bowlers according to their ball speed and rev rate. A type 1 bowler has a lot of revs but a low ball speed. A type 5 bowler has a lot of speed but a low rev rate. Type 3 bowlers have a ball speed and rev rate that are more equal. type 2 and 4 fall in between these types.

Okay I know what that is, I have a chart of it from Morich and Track bowling. I didn't think about using it in the sanding ball context.

Should have remembered I posted this chart in another thread.
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/2/29/BallSpeedvsRevRate.JPG

[bowl1820]

Some info that could help.
Kind of a updated version of the calculator below, just with out the calculator part
Click for Bowling Ball Surface Adjustment Table (http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/f/f7/Surface_Adjustment_Table.pdf)

Heres the link to a pdf of the Ball Surface Friction Calculator:
Ckick for ball_surface_calculator.pdf (http://home.earthlink.net/%7Elitefrozen/downloads/ball_surface_calculator.pdf)
This info is a little dated (from the Urethane early reactive/particle ball times) but a good comparison piece.




Ball Surface Friction Calculator
From Ebonite Tech Center:
Read through each of the five categories below. These are the important topics to consider when
choosing the proper ball surface friction for your style and lane condition.
Simply note the choice in each category the variable that fits you. At the end, add up the five numbers
and compare this sum to the chart at the bottom of the page.
This chart is only a guide. You may have to fine tune the final surface texture, but this will provide you
with a starting place.
Having a trained pro shop technician assist you will pin-point the proper selection.
VARIABLE (POINTS)
✔ Lane Condition
◦ Heavy Oil (3)
◦ Medium Oil (2)
◦ Light Oil (1)
✔ Bowler's Ball Speed
◦ Faster (3)
◦ Average (2)
◦ Slower (1)
✔ Bowler's Revolutions
◦ Stroker (3)
◦ Tweener (2)
◦ Power (1)
✔ Bowler's Axis Rotation (hand position at release)
◦ 90 Deg. [3:00 hand release] (3)
◦ 45Deg. [4:30 hand release] (2)
◦ 10 Deg. [5:30 - 6:00 hand release] (1)
✔ Bowler's Axis Tilt (size of track)
◦ Maximum [Small - under 9 ½"] (3)
◦ Medium [Medium - 9 1/2" to 11"] (2)
◦ Minimal [Large - 11 1/2" to 13 ½"] (1)

Total Points and Recommended Surface Texture
15 points: 320 grit sandpaper
14 points: 400 grit sandpaper
13 points: Maroon scuff pad
12 points: Powerhouse Sandblaster
11 points: Grey scuff pad
10 points: 800 grit sandpaper
9 points: 800 grit sandpaper, polish with Powerhouse Matte Finish
8 points: 800 grit sandpaper, white scuff pad
7 points: 800 grit sandpaper, polish with Powerhouse Factory Finish Polish
6 points: 800 grit sandpaper, polish with Powerhouse Extender Polish (reactives) or Powerhouse
Particle Polish (particle balls)
5 points: 800 grit sandpaper, polish with Powerhouse Extender Polish (reactives) or Powerhouse
Particle Polish (particle balls), then with Factory Finish Polish

Also this
http://cdn.bowlingball.org/images/content/morich-surface.jpg

[MICHAEL]

Thanks for the great information. Do you remember when I was saying the Vivid went flat into the pocket? It was suggested that I go 4000, and then polish if that didn't work!
I think it was said that it was burning up before it got to the pocker? Jason and I use to laugh about if it was burning up,,,, it was not showing it in the way of revolutions, or movement! This will all sink in,,,, and I will figure it out, thanks for the imformation

[MICHAEL]

Mike, I think you misunderstood something along the way. I don't remember a time on here that anybody said the opposite of your DVD. If the ball won't hook (and is thoroughly clean) you need more friction which means a rougher surface. If it hooks too much than less friction which is a smoother surface. The higher grits and polish are smoother. Also keep in mind, the more grits you hit as you work up to your final grit will provide a smoother looking ball. In another words, if you just went with gray pad then 4000 abralon it wouldn't appear as smooth as if you went gray, 500, 1000, 2000 then 4000.
Oil amounts are like trash in my opinion. One bowler's heavy oil lane is another bowler's dry lane. My treasure is your trash. Speed, rev rate, tilt and rotation all have an effect on the reaction, as you know. So if we both were on the same lane, using the same ball with the same surface, my reaction would or could be different than yours. That's where the fun is; matching the bowler, ball and lane conditions. When you get it right they think you're a genius. Miss by a little bit and you're a joke. Doing this without knowing the bowler and /or sometimes the lane conditions presents a real challenge.

I was told that it was hooking to soon, and that it needed to go through the oil, and to use 4000, and then polish. Which I did and it was even worse. I know they kept saying it needed more oil,,, at two different alleys, with fressh oil, still not much better then my plastic ball. Bill thats what I am talking about!
The chart says less hook lower numbers, I was told to go high! I think OIL IS THE big question here, and the degree of it!!
I will work this out through trial and error..... have faith in me men!!!/Women lol

[bowl1820]

Thanks for the great information. Do you remember when I was saying the Vivid went flat into the pocket? It was suggested that I go 4000, and then polish if that didn't work!
I think it was said that it was burning up before it got to the pocket?

Given the information at the time, yes it was suggested the that the ball may have been "burning up" and rolling out do to not enough oil, That is a more common occurrence in house's , than having too much oil. So smoothing and polishing is the first change to try, to see if it make's a difference. You got the problem resolved before we could try going the opposite way and making the surface rougher.


Jason and I use to laugh about if it was burning up,,,, it was not showing it in the way of revolutions, or movement!
Well given we can't actually see the balls reaction on the lane, it makes it difficult to diagnose a problem.


This will all sink in,,,, and I will figure it out, thanks for the information

[billf]

Fresh oil doesn't mean more oil. So your oil was put down a few hours after mine. Yours was a typical house pattern with 26ml. Mine was put out before yours but was a sport pattern with 50ml. Yours is "fresh" but still not more. When people were posting that it was hooking too soon, that means it did not get to complete the skid phase before going into the hook phase. Heavy oil balls, such as the Vivid, need that heavy oil to complete the skid phase otherwise they can and will enter the hook phase too early and roll flat through the pocket. There are ways to play around this condition but not everyone can do so.
I don't think it would matter what you did to your Vivid. If the coverstock was indeed bad you would probably never would have found a happy surface for it.

[MICHAEL]

I understand that Bill…. I know now that I had a problem with Vivid. Its problem was it didn’t show any hook,,, not early ,,, not late,,, behaved like a plastic ball. That’s what was confusing to me,,, why go slicker, with a high 4000, and polish, when it never hooked early, or late. I do understand the system now! I guess the advice I was getting was assumed to be that the vivid was hooking to early! That not being the case, going to more surface might have helped. (even though I believe it came out of the box 4000).
I know I have a lot to learn, and I am new to the sport, but believe it or not its staring to sink in! I will set my balls up in such a way as to be able to handle Heavy oil,,,, Medium heavy, and medium dry
I think the most important thing will be to keep records on EACH balls treatment, then make notes at the alley how it worked out.
Thanks for the help all of you…… Iceman

[billf]

Oh no, not a "Top Gun" reference for the next top gun bowling lol