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Thread: ball reaction vs inconsistent bowler?

  1. #31
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    Well What I did worked....sort of. I threw them on the spinner the other day and hit the Conspiracy with 2000 matte, the Kingpin 3000 matte, and Rhino 4000 polished. I didn't use the BWG tonight so we will leave that out. The Kingpin and Conspiracy were almost identical again tonight. Started with yjr Kingpin and was hitting light. Switched to the Conspiracy in the 8th frame and made an adjustment. 2nd game came alive. Conspiracy loved the refreshed surface. 166, 191, 233, 205. I did notice I was releasing inconsistently early in game 4 and think I may have been doing it in game 1 also
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  2. #32
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    I think what Rob and Vdub disagree with Aslan about is a set progression system. The lanes will tell you where to play and what balls you should use. If you have a set system, and the last ball in your system is the best for the night, you may never get to it or get to it too late. Lane conditions can vary so much from pair to pair and week to week that you need to watch your ball reaction and then adjust accordingly.

  3. #33
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonNJ View Post
    I think what Rob and Vdub disagree with Aslan about is a set progression system. The lanes will tell you where to play and what balls you should use. If you have a set system, and the last ball in your system is the best for the night, you may never get to it or get to it too late. Lane conditions can vary so much from pair to pair and week to week that you need to watch your ball reaction and then adjust accordingly.
    I'm actually not "100% clear" on what Rob and VDub are objecting to. I've read numerous articles by Rob...and he has advocated in the past for a arsenal selection based on varying RGs. I'm assuming that he, VDub, and others have a "system" for how they adjust to the lanes...sort of what LazySavage was talking about...I don't think VDub nor Rob get a bad reaction and flip a coin. So, I don't 'think' the disagreement is about how to "progress" through your arsenal based on ball reactions and results you are seeing.

    I 'think'...the disagreement is more about how to take 4-8 balls (actually 3-7...spare ball) and decide what ball to start with.

    I used to have a system where I would use a "benchmark ball"...that was my "middle reaction" ball...and if I needed more hook...or an earlier look...I'd ball up...if I needed less reaction...a longer look..I could ball down. The 'problem' with that approach was:

    1) If you don't have enough time in practice...you likely will start with the wrong ball.
    2) While it helped find that 'starting ball', it was horrible for figuring out what the next ball...next ball...next ball should be....because I didn't truly understand the specs nor ball motion at that point. Ironically, it's my interactions with RobM that really helped me gain a better understanding of ball specs and how those specs affect ball motion.

    Working with a coach, I was able to learn how the pros set up their arsenals...not "strongest to weakest" (per se)...but how to move from one 'type' of ball to another....based on what the lanes are likely to do. It's based on very simple facts about bowling...that are true everywhere...every center...everywhere...with modern bowlingballs.

    1) Bowling balls absorb oil...as they do this...you need to move left to be able to stay in the oil. This was an important lesson for me, as a bowler, and one that Rob had also preached when I worked with him. Moving right...is almost always a bad idea.
    2) (and Rob sort of refutes this one a bit) Over time, not only do bowling balls absorb oil...but plastic and urethane balls tend to 'push' oil down the lane. This effect may be negligible over 1-3 games...maybe even over 4-10 games...kinda depends on the number of shots thrown with non-reactive resin balls. This is called "carrydown"...and it's been around forever. MUCH less of an issue now...with reactive resin...than it was 30-40 years ago.

    KNOWING that oil gets absorbed by resin balls (causing moves left) and that carrydown 'could' exist near your breakpoint (as the night goes on)...a bowler can assemble a 'progression" style arsenal....meaning...a ball you generally will start with...a ball (or balls) you can ball down to as lanes transition...and a skid/flip stronger/longer type ball to combat carrydown (should you encounter it).

    Every bowler has a slightly different approach to this.

    - Some bowlers, like me, like to stay in one general area...so my progression balls down...so I never have to make a huge move left to get ahead of those left of me. I don't realistically have the "hand" to start moving left and competing with thumbless, 2-handed, and Mark Roth type guys. I'd have to drastically change my approach, timing, and balls speed to do so. I also don't want to set up a progression that makes me start around 1st arrow. I like the up-and-in shot...but playing the 1-3 boards usually results in my pulling my shots to avoid the gutter.

    - Some bowlers (see Rob Johnson's video) have a modified method I described...where he has a larger arsenal (6 balls versus my 3) and can decide whether to go to a ball #2 versus #3 based on how the lanes are playing and the scoring pace. I think this method is a bit too advanced for most bowlers...and requires a large arsenal...and good competition (to guage your move off of).

    - Some (higher level) bowlers have a few different "progressions"...because they are at a level where they play different houses quite a bit...places they've never played before...sport/challenge conditions, etc... One single progression may not work very well if one week you're on a 42ft PBA pattern and the next week you're on a 26ft flat pattern. These bowlers also can vary their speeds and hand positions and approaches effectively and can gain a lot of information from opponents (and usually ball reps).

    The bowlers NOT mentioned above...are what I consider the "chaos theory" league bowlers...and we've ALL bowled with them at one point or another (or still do regularly)...who switch balls for apparently no other reason than they aren't striking. They can't explain why...they don't have any idea about balls losing energy....or carrydown...and couldn't explain ONE ball spec...but if I left a split...it must be the ball...guess I need to randomly try another one. I KNOW...neither Rob (nor VDub) are this type of 'chaos bowler'.

    The "discussion"...seems to be: "How do you decide the FIRST ball to start using?" No matter WHAT your progression system...what ball do you start with?

    And, as these discussions have went in the past, we get into a theoretical optimum versus a practical reality. MOST bowlers have about 4 shots in practice. I've bowled in leagues where I had the whole 10 minutes to meyself...and I'd wear myself out in practice throwing shot after shot. And, I've been in 5-man leagues where you better make each practice shot count...cuz you'll be lucky to get more than 2 shots on each side.

    For ME...with 4-5 shots to work with...I generally don't have the time to mess around with trying Ball #2. I certainly don't have time to play with alternative lines and approaches. And...EVEN IF I DID...it's a THS shot...it's the same shot every week. It may vary a "little"...I'm aware of Rob's and Suzie's work on the subject...but a 'little'. That 'little' means you might have a better look with your next ball choice (in your progression system) IF you have a large arsenal (5-9 balls).

    CASE IN POINT:
    When I bowled REGULARLY at one house in California...like 2-3 times a week...I created chart where my feet/target should be for EACH LANE. This was a tiered house (split center) and one side certainly played differently than the other. The "variation"?

    LOW SIDE:
    Left Toe: Between 25 and 20
    Target (generally at the arrows): Between 10 and 13

    HIGH SIDE:
    Left Toe: Between 18 and 26
    Target (generally at the arrows): Between 9.5 and 13

    I started with the same ball (4-ball arsenal) about 96-99% of the time. I may have needed to move my feet/target 1:1 or 1:2 to account for pair to pair variation...humidity...topography...etc...; but generally the shot was what the shot was. Carry ultimately depended on my shot making and my ability to see when to move and when to change balls. Throwing the other 3 balls in practice...would have made no difference. The Ebonite ball would have went too long (because it was designed and surfaced to adapt to transition). The Hammer would have also went too long...as it was a less surface/similar spec ball to my Ball #1. And the Track ball I rarely ever used on league night on synthetics...it was practically a spare ball. Would it be "nice" to have 189 shots in practice (all quality shots) where I could experiment with every ball at every speed on every line, etc...? Sure, I guess. But am I really gonna mess with my timing to try and play an extreme angle when I don't have a hybrid (much less a solid) ball in my bag? Am I gonna try Balls #3-#4 up the 2-board even though I KNOW I'll end up pulling at LEAST 1/3 of those shots?

    I believe you play YOUR GAME. The lanes will tell you where to start, when to move, and when to change balls. LISTEN to the lanes...I 100% agree with that sentiment. But don't over-complicate things. Don't try to play Belmo's line when you ain't Belmo!! I'm sure a 650rpm shot at 21mph is gonna be an AWESOME shot on most nights...probably the BEST shot on many nights....but if you can't do that...then don't pretend you can just because thats the IDEAL shot. The ideal ball may be the Hammer VIBE...but if you don't have a Hammer VIBE...don't run into the pro shop and try to hurry up and have the nearest spec ball drilled. Play your game, trust in the arsenal you know. Only ROB-E/WALLY the robot (whatever the USBC robot's name is) can truly blame the ball/lanes.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    I'm actually not "100% clear" on what Rob and VDub are objecting to.
    I didn't object to anything to be 100% clear. I simply don't expect to use the same ball or ball progression (if I am needing to switch balls) each and every week.
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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post

    I started with the same ball (4-ball arsenal) about 96-99% of the time. I may have needed to move my feet/target 1:1 or 1:2 to account for pair to pair variation...humidity...topography...etc...; but generally the shot was what the shot was. Carry ultimately depended on my shot making and my ability to see when to move and when to change balls. Throwing the other 3 balls in practice...would have made no difference. The Ebonite ball would have went too long (because it was designed and surfaced to adapt to transition). The Hammer would have also went too long...as it was a less surface/similar spec ball to my Ball #1. And the Track ball I rarely ever used on league night on synthetics...it was practically a spare ball. Would it be "nice" to have 189 shots in practice (all quality shots) where I could experiment with every ball at every speed on every line, etc...? Sure, I guess. But am I really gonna mess with my timing to try and play an extreme angle when I don't have a hybrid (much less a solid) ball in my bag? Am I gonna try Balls #3-#4 up the 2-board even though I KNOW I'll end up pulling at LEAST 1/3 of those shots?

    I believe you play YOUR GAME. The lanes will tell you where to start, when to move, and when to change balls. LISTEN to the lanes...I 100% agree with that sentiment. But don't over-complicate things. Don't try to play Belmo's line when you ain't Belmo!! I'm sure a 650rpm shot at 21mph is gonna be an AWESOME shot on most nights...probably the BEST shot on many nights....but if you can't do that...then don't pretend you can just because thats the IDEAL shot. The ideal ball may be the Hammer VIBE...but if you don't have a Hammer VIBE...don't run into the pro shop and try to hurry up and have the nearest spec ball drilled. Play your game, trust in the arsenal you know. Only ROB-E/WALLY the robot (whatever the USBC robot's name is) can truly blame the ball/lanes.
    This is where we differ you think you can't get to the pocket with these other balls or it's some huge jump (maybe it is for you) I've never seen that. Taking plastic out the weakest ball I've ever had in my bag vs the strongest ball I've ever had in my bag is maybe 6 and 3 different. A ball that goes longer might be 1-1 change it's not like your moving to the next lane to throw most balls. Most days I really believe I can throw plastic with a 6-3 move but I haven't proven myself with that one. I can guarantee you your Scandal Pearl is perfectly capable of reaching the pocket weather it's the first ball thrown or the 45th that night.

    Having a ball with a "benchmark" reaction to start with makes some sense to start with as an intitule throw in practice as it might be good for a more even judgment of the lane. Having a ball #1 that you start with 95% of the time or believing it's the only one getting their is a huge mistake that you've been bowling long enough to know better.
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  6. #36
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    @ Amyers

    Well, last night I actually had plenty of time to practice...2 of the 3 players on the other team were late. I warmed up...was making good shots...and I seemed to be lined up.

    I had to make a slight vertical laydown adjustment on the right lane....no biggee.

    Well...I seriously considered moving a little right and taking out the Warning Sign...maybe seeing what that shot looked like.

    But, here's why I didn't bother:

    1) Like you said, and I totally agree, you can find the pocket and probably strike with just about every ball in your bag...so why switch to another line and ball...when I already have one that is working?

    2) (and this is the MOST important in terms of having a 'progression')...IF you do that...and you go to Ball #2...even though Ball #1 was working just fine...you've now taken 1 of your 4 strike balls out of the game.

    If there's transition...I'm gonna need to switch to the Scandal Pearl before there's enough carrydown for the Scandal Pearl to be effective. It's going to over-hook. Which means, by starting with Ball #2, I've potentially knocked 2 of 4 of my balls out of the game...or at least would need to give up on Game 2 until there's (hopefully) enough carrydown where the Scandal Pearl will be effective.

    I suppose I could ball down to the 300A...but that's a HUGE jump down...I'll likely be out at the 5-board praying the 300A has enough energy to at least give me a little carry.

    My best comparison would be a bowling ball arsenal to a MLB pitching rotation. You have a starter, a middle reliever, and a closer. Your middle reliever 'may' be pitching the best...but if you try to start him...he's gonna have to go more innings than he's used to...or you'll have to bring in your closer way too early. Likewise, the bowling ball progression is sort of a "team approach" to tackling lane conditions...each ball has a role to play. Each ball in the progression is designed to be utilized for a specific task. Balls have been chosen and surfaces adjusted so that each ball fits in that slot. The Warning sign isn't a Ball #1...not only because of specs...but because of how I surfaced it.

    If I go to Vegas, or a tournament, or play on a sport pattern...I can alter surfaces...but the progression stays the same...because I can't alter specs. I can't change out cores or switch coverstocks. Like Rob Johnson said in his video, you aren't going to be successful trying to make a ball do something it wasn't designed to do.

    I'm not saying you stubbonly NEVER start with Ball #2...I've done it. But it takes enough shots in practice to see that simply moving left isn't going to carry with that ball on that lane. Would I ever start with Ball #3? Probably not. If Ball #1 isn't working...Ball #3 is almost guaranteed not to work. Would I start with Ball #4? Maybe...if they didn't oil the lanes...wood lanes...maybe.

    Now, the PROS...they have much larger arsenals...so they can make some more elaborate decisions. They also don't bowl on a THS....they need more options. If I had a 6-ball or 8-ball arsenal...would I be more likely to try 2-3 balls in practice (if I had the time)? Probably...almost certainly. Because, I'd still have plenty of options to switch to...plenty of balls downstream in the progression. But, with a 4-ball (essentially 3-ball) arsenal?? Probably not...because taking my starting pitcher out of the game after 2 innings means I'm going to have problems by the 6th inning. Larger arsenals = more pitchers in the bullpen...maybe another fresh starter...or 3-4 middle relievers...
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  7. #37

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    Would you ever go from "ball 2" to "ball 1" and move inside? A big part of the game today is balling up and moving in if the lanes call for it.

  8. #38
    Bowling Guru Amyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    @ Amyers

    Well, last night I actually had plenty of time to practice...2 of the 3 players on the other team were late. I warmed up...was making good shots...and I seemed to be lined up.

    Well...I seriously considered moving a little right and taking out the Warning Sign...maybe seeing what that shot looked like.

    But, here's why I didn't bother:

    1) Like you said, and I totally agree, you can find the pocket and probably strike with just about every ball in your bag...so why switch to another line and ball...when I already have one that is working?

    2) (and this is the MOST important in terms of having a 'progression')...IF you do that...and you go to Ball #2...even though Ball #1 was working just fine...you've now taken 1 of your 4 strike balls out of the game.

    If there's transition...I'm gonna need to switch to the Scandal Pearl before there's enough carrydown for the Scandal Pearl to be effective. It's going to over-hook. Which means, by starting with Ball #2, I've potentially knocked 2 of 4 of my balls out of the game...or at least would need to give up on Game 2 until there's (hopefully) enough carrydown where the Scandal Pearl will be effective.
    And this is where I don't think your quite getting it.

    1. Carry down doesn't exist in modern bowling especially with a ball like the Scandal. So it's not going to remove it from play.
    2. Starting off with ball #2 doesn't preclude throwing ball #1. if you want to start off with #2 that will necessitate a move right usually. Make a move left and go to the stronger ball it works.

    This is the point. It's okay if you order the balls in your head 1,2,3,4. Thinking you have to use them in that order is plain wrong headed. You have to understand which balls are more or less in your head and be able to switch between them.

    If your using plastic or urethane I will give you it may be necessary to consider the possibility of carry down if your bowling a group with a lot of urethane or plastic they are throwing. Personally I doubt this happens often but I'll admit the possibility but only if both groups are making a high percentage of use those types of covers. If your using reactive resin it dose not exist. I do occasionally use plastic in league and I haven't seen carry down with it in years either. Simply the odds of 3 or more bowlers playing the same area with plastic or urethan equipment and you happening to even some what hit their carry down spots consistently are astronomical.
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  9. #39
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mc_runner View Post
    Would you ever go from "ball 2" to "ball 1" and move inside? A big part of the game today is balling up and moving in if the lanes call for it.
    With a bigger arsenal...maybe. But not with the current arsenal. Moving left of everyone else I don't have the ball and I have too much speed. I could try to slow my approach, but that'll just mess with my timing. Plus, I'm usually not the furthest left...so I'd just be moving onto someone else's transitioned area. So once Ball #1 is spent...and the lanes have transitioned enough...there's almost never a reason to go back to it.

    @Amyers
    I think the other big point of contention is how much change you 'really' see. I know Suzie and Rob have done some research...and I read alot of it...and don't disagree with their findings...but the effects are not "really" noticeable...not to the extent that you need all these variations in releases and balls and speeds and lines. And thats part of my point.

    Sure...if you're VDub and you're bowling the USBC Masters or sport patter tournaments...or even if you're in a really high level travel league (if those even exist anymore)...sure...you might need to vary up some things. I read that the Pros have three releases, three lines, and at least 2 approaches (5-step, 4-step, 3-step). Add a choice of an unlimited number of balls and drilling angles. They need all that "choice" to adapt to some drastically different conditions.

    Now lets look at ourselves (for most of us). We bowl 1 house...maybe 2. We never see anything but a THS on league night. We probably don't even play the entire house...maybe our league is delegated to just one side of the house. That makes your variations that you need to prepare for...EXCEEDINGLY small. Honestly, most of us that bring 3+ balls probably don't use all 3 more than 25% of the time.

    I'm not saying there isn't "chaos"...but honestly...if you have the biggest effect of humidity or topography...and put it up against a 'slight' variation in your release...the slight release variation will almost certainly cause a larger reaction. Same thing with "drillings"...could they help maximize your game? Sure. But I'd take the better fit of a ball over a better drilling angle. I'd take a more ideal surfacing over a better drill angle anyday.

    What TRULY has the greatest impact on ball motion, hitting the pocket, and carry?
    1) Release
    2) Speed control
    3) Oil Pattern
    4) Accuracy
    5) Surface
    6) The right ball

    From there...it's a distant drop to:
    7) How your opponents are affecting your line.
    8) Drilling Layout
    9) Lane to Lane topography variations

    I think we did a poll on that topic at one point.
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  10. #40
    Bowling Guru Amyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post

    @Amyers
    I think the other big point of contention is how much change you 'really' see. I know Suzie and Rob have done some research...and I read alot of it...and don't disagree with their findings...but the effects are not "really" noticeable...not to the extent that you need all these variations in releases and balls and speeds and lines. And thats part of my point.

    Sure...if you're VDub and you're bowling the USBC Masters or sport patter tournaments...or even if you're in a really high level travel league (if those even exist anymore)...sure...you might need to vary up some things. I read that the Pros have three releases, three lines, and at least 2 approaches (5-step, 4-step, 3-step). Add a choice of an unlimited number of balls and drilling angles. They need all that "choice" to adapt to some drastically different conditions.
    I'm not sure how we got onto varying speed and releases and such. I personally have never advised anyone that they should adjust those. In my opinion most bowlers are lucky to have their primary half consistently. Nor have I ever suggested varied approaches or buying balls that are the same with different drillings. The converstation has been about being able to change into different balls at any point and not waiting for some mythical condition that doesn't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    Now lets look at ourselves (for most of us). We bowl 1 house...maybe 2. We never see anything but a THS on league night. We probably don't even play the entire house...maybe our league is delegated to just one side of the house. That makes your variations that you need to prepare for...EXCEEDINGLY small. Honestly, most of us that bring 3+ balls probably don't use all 3 more than 25% of the time.

    I'm not saying there isn't "chaos"...but honestly...if you have the biggest effect of humidity or topography...and put it up against a 'slight' variation in your release...the slight release variation will almost certainly cause a larger reaction. Same thing with "drillings"...could they help maximize your game? Sure. But I'd take the better fit of a ball over a better drilling angle. I'd take a more ideal surfacing over a better drill angle anyday .
    I'm pretty sure you backed up my point here. What's the biggest difference you ever really see on league night? Maybe 4-2 and that's rare. How much is the difference between your ball #1 and Ball #3? I personally don't buy hook monsters but the biggest I've seen is abut 6-3. If your primary target is 10 why can't you aim at 7 or 13 with just as good of results? that the point We've been arguing you should be making the decision on which ball to throw not the way you have them numbered in your head


    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    What TRULY has the greatest impact on ball motion, hitting the pocket, and carry?
    1) Release
    2) Speed control
    3) Oil Pattern
    4) Accuracy
    5) Surface
    6) The right ball

    From there...it's a distant drop to:
    7) How your opponents are affecting your line.
    8) Drilling Layout
    9) Lane to Lane topography variations

    I think we did a poll on that topic at one point.
    I'm pretty sure you made my point again. Lets look at this slightly differently of the 9 items you listed here which ones are you truly in control of?

    We both think #1+#2 are difficult to vary well
    The house controls #3
    #4 your having a good night or bad with your not flipping a switch
    #7 your opponents control
    #8 Your not changing
    #9 you can't change

    So basically the ball #5 and the surface #6 are then only items you get to choose!!!!
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