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Thread: Two questions

  1. #1

    Default Two questions

    This post might turn into a bit of a lengthy “stream of consciousness” format; bear with me.

    Basically, I’m a little confused about a couple of points about the release. My questions are:

    1. What really is the meaning of staying behind the ball, and can it be accomplished in a hook release?

    2. Should hook be created by lifting the fingers, or turning the wrist?

    I've compiled a few resources, which seem to give me conflicting instruction about these questions.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNtwJQLzE4A

    The above video states, “This is the position of the hand we want throughout the entire swing.” This position, the suitcase release, is definitely not “staying behind the ball”. As several individuals have commented on the video’s inferior instructions, I doubt its quality. Is the information in the above video correct?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9PmjSi2UJM

    First, this video refers to hook as spin. This definitely makes me doubt its credibility.This video warns against rotating the hand. However, at 2:48 Rich talks about rotation of the fingertips, yet his hand is also rotating. Furthermore, isn’t the correct term lifting the fingertips? Yet again, Rich damages his credibility.

    Also, www.perfectbowling.com writes, “It is a common misconception that in order to hook a ball the wrist initiates the process and the wrist movement of turning the ball gives the ball the curve it needs. But this is not true. While the wrist can be involved with a slight 15 degree turn, the source of the hook actually comes from the fingers as you release the ball.”

    However, www.bowlingball.com states that, “As you're lifting with your fingers is when you rotate your hand and wrist counter-clockwise.” In order to create hook, it says to lift with the fingers, but then says to rotate with the wrist. Which is it? This also seems to conflict with the previous source.

    In an article on staying behind the ball, www.bowlingball.com writes, “First, if you watch recent televised finals of PBA National Tour events, you may have heard one or two players "miked" for the cameras vocalize the words "stay behind the ball."” Since it is advantageous for the PBA bowlers to hook the ball, this leads me to believe that the ball can be hooked while staying behind it. Is this presumption correct? This point relates to my first question.

    Again, my questions are:

    What is truly meant by staying behind the ball, and can it be used for both straight and hook releases?

    Is the hooking motion of the ball created by lifting of the fingers, or turning of the wrist?

    Lastly, I think I might be getting hung up on the word “staying” in staying behind the ball. Several people I know have commented on my tendency to be too concerned with semantics.

    I would greatly appreciate any enlightenment I could gain on these questions.

    I apologize if my post was too extensive.

    Please don’t hesitate to ask for clarification, if needed.

    Thank you.

  2. #2
    Bowling God billf's Avatar
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    Wow, first off, there are many ways to impart rotation on the ball. I have tried covering this in detail for some members and will try so here again. In bowling the fingers, hand and wrist are generally considered a solid, single object hence the confusion from the contradictions. If you rotate your middle and ring fingers the wrist tends to follow.
    The first video is definitely for beginners and pretty old too. At the time it was made it was a common way to teach where the hand would be at release.
    The Rich Carruba video. He called it spin just to try to be on the same level as the beginners that video was intended for. He seems like a decent guy but his teachings aren't to my personal liking.

    Can hook be created while staying behind the ball? Yes. Doing so the ball will hook but with limited axis rotation. How? By lifting and when doing so have more pressure lifting with the middle finger. The further under the ball the fingers are at release, the stronger potential for revs and hook. I say potential because some have a hard time getting the ball to roll off the ends of the fingers which affects all releases. Are you hung up on semantics? It's not just you, I do it all the time and it's made learning some parts of bowling more difficult. It's a general term that is used when any part of the hand is on the back half of the ball.

    The easiest release? 45° axis rotation and 90° axis rotation. This is where I deviate away from some of the basic coaches so if I'm not clear let me know. Whatever position your hand is in on the downswing, it needs to come off the ball at the angle of the rotation you want. The rotation occurs after the thumb has been released. So if you want a 90° axis rotation and you come down with your hand perfectly behind the ball (6:00) then when the thumb exits, the fingers rotate (causing the wrist to follow) to the 3:00 position. 45° would be 6:00 to 4:30. Again, the more that you can get the ball to roll off the finger tips (acceleration phase) the more revs you will generate. Given your slower ball speed you may have to work on not getting too many revs but that's entirely up to you.

    Inside the ball. As stated I use to assume that meant I had to have my entire hand between the ball and myself so the back of my hand was facing my body. That's too literal. Try having your index finger at 1:00 with slightly more ball weight outside (away from your body) at the beginning of your downswing (or earlier if that's easier for you). As your arm is almost perpendicular to the floor, release the thumb. Thumb should be clear by the time your arm is 90° to the floor. Rotate your finger (and wrist) quickly to the 4 or 5:00 position. What you can get use to and comfortable with will dictate the amount for you.

    *when I say for you, that's for each individual bowler and not towards any one bowler.
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  3. #3

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    Thanks for the quick reply, Bill! Great help, as always!

  4. #4
    Bowling God billf's Avatar
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    You caught me as I logged on
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    Wow. Great post. You really write well, which is a lost art in today's internet society.

    I'm not nearly as qualified as Bill to post, but when I write questions I often like to hear different perspectives. OF COURSE you should default to Bill, as he is an actual coach and I'm just a hack. That being said:

    I feel like it's a combination of the fingers and the wrist, and not either one by itself. This might be a complete reproduction of one of the things Bill had said, but bear with me...

    I feel like the fingers create most of the "spins," or "revs." Whichever one you choose to call it. I feel like they create a little extra oomph and cause the ball to spin in a certain direction. But I feel like my wrist angle creates the angle of the spin. My ultimate goal is to have the ball rolling completely end over end in the roll phase. I want maximum energy to carry into the pins. I once heard that if the ball comes into the pocket spinning it creates deflection and causes most splits. BUT if it hits the pocket rolling end over end in the angle in which it is traveling, then it will explode on the pins. I heard the key is to have it hit the pins within 2 to 4 rolls once it begins going end over end.

    So my wrist angle changes from night to night and as the lanes change. Sometimes the oil patterns feel longer so I have to make my angle more dramatic since it will be skidding in the oil longer, and have to come in at a sharper angle. If the oil isn't as heavy, I don't angle my wrist as much. I think my fingers pretty much do the same thing no matter what.
    Not helping the situation since 1983.


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  6. #6
    Bowling God billf's Avatar
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    Bowling is like many things in life; there are many ways to accomplish the end result. Which one is correct? The one that works for you. My belief is that many times a bowler will find an easy way for them to roll a hook or get more revs. Once that happens they become convinced that is the "true" correct way. Then a few years pass, they decide to become a coach. Now they espouse their way to anyone and everyone. Obviously for some it will work easily while others will never master that particular technique.

    You see it all the time in sports. A coach has success with "their" system then goes from team to team utilizing that same system. If that system was as perfect as they believe then why wouldn't success follow them? Because that particular system meshed well with that first particular group but doesn't mean that it's for every athlete. Oftentimes coaches try to mold a player to the coach's beliefs rather than develop the athlete's inherent skills.
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  7. #7

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    Staying behind the ball creates more "roll" and that is much better for your game. Much more dependable and predictable.

    Hook the ball by lifting with your fingers, I don't recommend trying to turn the wrist. Cupping the wrist to get more leverage will help get more revs on the ball. Some people even "flick" their wrist to get more on the ball.
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  8. #8

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    This thread has been very insightful. I used some the things in this thread to help clear up my own questions. Wish I had knowledge to impart, but I will take the tips and knowledge of others, put if to use and hopefully pass it in down the road

    Thanks

  9. #9
    Pin Crusher Hammer's Avatar
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    Staying behind the ball means keeping your wrist straight or a little cupped and your palm facing forward with ball until your hand is near your sliding foot at which time your thumb will quickly come out and then your hand will rotate a little toward you and the weight of the ball falls onto your fingertips which will cause the ball to spin/rotate giving you your revs. When the weight of the ball goes onto your fingertips you can add a little more to it by lifting with your fingertips. One thing about your fingertips. When the weight of the ball goes onto your fingertips don't suddenly straighten your fingertips to let the ball come off your hand. You want to leave your fingertips bent/hooked and let the weight of the ball pull itself off of your fingertips which gives it the revs. If you straighten them you will lose rotation or revs. I didn't know this when I first started using a fingertip ball and would straighten my fingers which would make the ball come off my thumb and and fingers at the same time. Not good if you want to hook the ball. When your hand turns at the release point you just want your hand and lower forearm to turn slightly and not your whole arm from the shoulder to the wrist.
    Last edited by Hammer; 12-29-2012 at 01:59 PM.

  10. #10

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    Keep the information and tips coming. Every time I read this thread after a new post I learn something else that I can put to use. I have been straightening my fingers and losing some action/reaction from my ball. Thanks

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