Gravity swing can increase your scores......

[Aslan]

you should lean foward thats how u get a high back swing please go see a coach

Definition of Irony: Already saw a coach and the 1st thing they told me?? Don't lean over.

[bowl1820]

HEY!! I resemble that remark!

Is Bill Hall watching me bowl?? Erie....

So, bowl1820...if you push a ball forward lets say chest level on step 1....and gravity and the weight of the ball cause it to arc in a pendulum motion....it PHYSICALLY CANNOT go higher than chest level on the backswing. Am I correct in that statement from your point of view? Simple momentum/Force physics....the weight of the ball and gravity act to push it toward the floor...the kinimatics causes it to have momentum as it goes into backswing phase...and then gravity and the weight of the ball works against that momentum...then the ball comes back down.

Simple test....I'm at work so I can't try it right now....but somebody take their bowling ball....stand on approach....do the usual push out and let the ball fall....use NO MUSCLES to push it back...just let it swing...I can GUARANTEE it won't go back farther than where it started. Physically impossible.

BUT!! BUT!!...Tonight is my practice night and I'm gonna take some of these comments to heart...see if I can maybe reduce some of that "muscling" of the forward swing. I may need to generate a slightler higher backswing...and i'll have to slow my approach or the ball will definitely be late...but I'll keep this stuff in mind and see what happens.

What I and I think everyone else is trying to say is

1: You don't use muscle to lift the ball high up in the backswing.

2: You don't use muscle to throw the ball faster/harder down the lane during the forward swing.

Like Bill Hall said when your manipulating the swing that way, you create an inconsistent release.

You talk about the gravity/Free/pendulum swing by itself not making a lot speed.

Like your just standing at the foul line, swinging the ball back then forward and releasing it. And saying if I want more speed I have to throw it harder. But that's not the case.

Your not taking into account your timing, footwork, starting position, release etc. all of these are factors that affect the speed and leverage you can impart on the ball.

Is learning how to do it hard? it can be, but that's why you practice.

[J Anderson]

Definition of Irony: Already saw a coach and the 1st thing they told me?? Don't lean over.

Big difference between lean forward and lean over.

[Aslan]

I get what you're saying bowl1820...and I've already watched all the videos referenced plus some. And I understand where they are coming from and even agree with it.

I was just pointing out that when people start saying there shouldn't be ANY muscling of a swing (bakwards or forwards), they would actually be surprised that nearly every bowler does this to varying degrees...including the pros that make those videos.

The "point" of the pendulum discussion (from what I read and viewed) is less about how you throw the ball, speed, etc. It's more about keeping the ball going back to front (rather than a sideways motion). You push it forward...it goes straight back....kick the leg to the side....ball goes straight forward where the leg used to be. Simple pendulum. That same "pendulum" discussion wasn't really about "muscling" because how much muscling we use is more dependent on our bodies, age, how tired we are, swings, lanes....or even if we need a minute adjustment for timing purposes. As I tried to point out...EVERYONE muscles the ball either backwards, forwards, or both. Someone like Sean Rash or Rhino Page...without ANY muscling of the ball...with a simple, simple pendulum swing...would have to start with the bowling ball above their head to get a backswing that high purely using gravity and the weight of the ball.

Somehow we got off topic and started talking about "muscling"...but really "muscling" is more of a problem if you overdo it. I have had to cut down a bit on the force I apply in my back swing. It's very, very minimal now. Because when I was "trying" to push the ball back...it made my whole swing/approach inconsistent and errratic. I started pushing the ball out rather than dropping it...which gave it more momentum to go back...less need to muscle...things got better. Maybe as I learn to cut a little "muscle action" off the forward swing...I'll see similar improvements...worth a try!!

[noeymc]

Big difference between lean forward and lean over.

thank you anderson...

[Terrier]

So, bowl1820...if you push a ball forward lets say chest level on step 1....and gravity and the weight of the ball cause it to arc in a pendulum motion....it PHYSICALLY CANNOT go higher than chest level on the backswing. Am I correct in that statement from your point of view? Simple momentum/Force physics....the weight of the ball and gravity act to push it toward the floor...the kinimatics causes it to have momentum as it goes into backswing phase...and then gravity and the weight of the ball works against that momentum...then the ball comes back down.

Simple test....I'm at work so I can't try it right now....but somebody take their bowling ball....stand on approach....do the usual push out and let the ball fall....use NO MUSCLES to push it back...just let it swing...I can GUARANTEE it won't go back farther than where it started. Physically impossible.

In a stationary pendulum, you are correct. The height of the pendulum is determined by the height at the initial point.

You are overlooking that there is translational motion occurring at the feet, which delivers additional momentum to the ball during the backswing. This is responsible for the increased height at the top of the backswing. It's not physically impossible.

If you're not convinced, hold the ball loosely at your side while at a standstill. Take a brisk step or two, and the ball will start to swing. Translational kinetic energy becomes potential energy, which is ball height.

[Hammer]

Good luck trying to get better doing it your way instead of the right way. A bowling coach must tear his hair out after a session with you.
You would dispute everything he told you which would be the right way. I guess we should tell bowlingball.com to can BowlVersity
because evidently they have no idea what they are talking about. You should take over BowlVersity and show techniques to folks who want to keep their scores inconsistent. LOL.

[Aslan]

In a stationary pendulum, you are correct. The height of the pendulum is determined by the height at the initial point.

You are overlooking that there is translational motion occurring at the feet, which delivers additional momentum to the ball during the backswing. This is responsible for the increased height at the top of the backswing. It's not physically impossible.

If you're not convinced, hold the ball loosely at your side while at a standstill. Take a brisk step or two, and the ball will start to swing. Translational kinetic energy becomes potential energy, which is ball height.

Now somebody is speaking my language!! I'm still a little confused at how taking 3 steps in one direction can translate into momentum in the opposite direction (over all 3 steps)....but at least someone is speaking on the same level and understanding my frustration with the initial concept.

Apparenlty I'm going to have "nerd out" and study up on transitional kinetic energy!

[dnhoffman]

Bottom line for me, I have a low backswing, my ball speed is 16 at the pin deck, and i don't have a ton of revs. I never muscle a shot because when I do things go. awry


And I average 200 in two THS leagues at different houses. It's no Walter Ray, but it's definitely a level you'll never reach with this "force it" logic.

[bowl1820]

Somehow we got off topic and started talking about "muscling"...but really "muscling" is more of a problem if you overdo it.

Yes there's a difference between Muscling and controlling.

I have had to cut down a bit on the force I apply in my back swing. It's very, very minimal now. Because when I was "trying" to push the ball back...it made my whole swing/approach inconsistent and erratic.

Yes that's muscling the back swing.

I started pushing the ball out rather than dropping it...which gave it more momentum to go back...less need to muscle...things got better. Maybe as I learn to cut a little "muscle action" off the forward swing...I'll see similar improvements...worth a try!!

Okay progress here.