Bowl GREAT against some teams, and POORLY against others (:?

[MICHAEL]

I agree about sandbagging. They should have a sandbagging court and if you get convicted you can't bowl for a year or something.

I agree with that 100 percent! But,,,, when you bowl a good bowler that is a sandbagger, you not only have to beat them scratch, but you have to beat THEIR handicap that is added on!

I am new to bowling, but I have SEEN, and heard TEAMS talking sandbagging strategies!! Last Thursday the team we were bowling, one of there bowlers actually had the nerve to turn around and say, should just throw a gutter ball???? GURRRRR... we had them beat scratch, but they had that game, and he wanted to keep that handicap, as high as possible! Iceman was not a happy bowler when this Ding Dong said that!!! I wanted to do a brain freeze on him right on the spot!!

I know handicaps have been covered on this forum extensively! I just wish there were more selections to discourage it! It's ,,, agitating, and pisses me off that a noble idea to make the game a more level playing field, is used for EGO, WINS, AND MONEY/PRIZES!

What IS A FAIR PUNISHMENT FOR SANDBAGGERS?

I think 5 years in a Federal Prison is very fair, with a roommate called, Bubba!!!

Any other ideas, on the low form of bowling without honor type!!

[Aslan]

When you have to give handicap pins, you really never really win..... It like running a 100 yard dash, against a guy that starts out 50 yards ahead of you! Did he really win... NO,,, with help they did win a few..

And yes,, I would love to bowl scratch,,, but try to find one!! 98 percent of them are handicap...

I don't necessarily buy that. You're in Missouri...the St. Louis area is one of the strongest for bowling. St. Louis, Florida, Detroit. I mean, if you wanted to stop messing around with handicap house leagues, given your scores, I'd say you could find 1-3 scratch leagues (individual, doubles, and team) to compete in. And I think you'd definitely be competitive.

I still stand by the belief that 98% or more of bowlers with high averages don't take that next step out of vanity more so than any of the common excuses (travel expense, can't find a scratch league, just wanna have fun, etc...). I mean, I have no problem with good bowlers bowling in handicap leagues...have at it if thats what ya wanna do...but elite bowlers that are bowling over 200 every night shouldn't be able to complain about how they beat a team of new players and only lost because of handicap and how thats BS. Because it's equally BS that a team with 4-5 guys with 200 averages are playing no-tap or on some Monday Fun League.

At least bowling HAS a handicap format. Trust me, from experience playing ice hockey, in sports where you just have to rely on people being honest about their skill level...and joining the approriate league/division...HORRIBLE success rate. It got so bad I almost quit playing. I mean, you have college players playing in a beginner league over the summer??? Players that actually get scholarships to play hockey at a university...and instead of joining a "A-League", they join a "C-League". I've played in C-Leagues against college players, former junior level amateurs, former elite travel players, even an occasional former low-level (iron leagues) pros...it was rediculous.

[mjoyce]

I don't necessarily buy that. You're in Missouri...the St. Louis area is one of the strongest for bowling. St. Louis, Florida, Detroit. I mean, if you wanted to stop messing around with handicap house leagues, given your scores, I'd say you could find 1-3 scratch leagues (individual, doubles, and team) to compete in. And I think you'd definitely be competitive.

I still stand by the belief that 98% or more of bowlers with high averages don't take that next step out of vanity more so than any of the common excuses (travel expense, can't find a scratch league, just wanna have fun, etc...). I mean, I have no problem with good bowlers bowling in handicap leagues...have at it if thats what ya wanna do...but elite bowlers that are bowling over 200 every night shouldn't be able to complain about how they beat a team of new players and only lost because of handicap and how thats BS. Because it's equally BS that a team with 4-5 guys with 200 averages are playing no-tap or on some Monday Fun League.

At least bowling HAS a handicap format. Trust me, from experience playing ice hockey, in sports where you just have to rely on people being honest about their skill level...and joining the approriate league/division...HORRIBLE success rate. It got so bad I almost quit playing. I mean, you have college players playing in a beginner league over the summer??? Players that actually get scholarships to play hockey at a university...and instead of joining a "A-League", they join a "C-League". I've played in C-Leagues against college players, former junior level amateurs, former elite travel players, even an occasional former low-level (iron leagues) pros...it was rediculous.

Asian I play hockey also and I have to agree with you on that.

As far as my experience in bowling goes; the only time my team loses to a team getting a ton of pins is if a couple of us bowl under our average.

If everyone bowls around their average then it's a pretty good competetive match. Currently my team is pretty bad and we have a high handicap. Shoot I'm the captain with a 140 average, my GF has a 108 average and the other two team members are just at about 100. We're improving so our averages are going up every week and the handicap is going down. So it all evens it self out.

There will be games we win because of handicap but also games we lose.

Now if this was a hockey team in a summer league we'd lose every game because we'd be up against all the same things Asian mentioned in his post. I guess the conclusion is that sandbagging to win is human nature. (BTW no one on my team is sandbagging we're bad at bowling )

[bowlerRob2]

i bowl better when i bowl against people with higher avgs

I second that! Last week I had to bowl against someone with a 89 average. At first that looks like a slam dunk until you look at her handicap. And you consider that with an average like that; she has no where to go but up up up.. And how does someone with an 89 average have a "bad game"? By having a 79 game? That large handicap feels like a mountain sometimes. But in that league, it's part of the fun and gives everyone equal footing. BTW, Hugh Miller is on our league and carrying an average in high 220's. If I bowl against him, there would be the chance he would have an "off game" down in the 180's or something.

But bowling god Michael, you roller of 300's should really consider a scratch league! :-)

[Aslan]

Asian I play hockey also and I have to agree with you on that.

Now if this was a hockey team in a summer league we'd lose every game because we'd be up against all the same things Asian mentioned in his post. I guess the conclusion is that sandbagging to win is human nature.

I think in hockey and softball and basketball…stuff like that…people want to win…so they look at the league they "belong in" and go one league lower. And that creates problems…especially in the bottom division. The place I used to skate at had 4 divisions.

Division I: Checking, Advanced players: defined as players who have played organized hockey at the college or junior level or a long career of organized hockey.
Division II: Non-Checking: Players with > 5 years organizational hockey experience.
Division III: Non-Checking: Players who have limited organization hockey background, but 1-5 years hockey background on teams/leagues.
Division IV: Non-Checking/Non-Slapshot: Reserved for beginner players with < 1 year experience. No players with organized playing experience High School level or higher.

So…what do you think the league make-up was? And realize this was in Michigan, the 2nd hottest area for hockey.

Division I: 4 teams
Division II: 6 teams
Division III: 27 teams
Division IV: 5 teams

In other words…nobody wanted to play check versus the best of the best…and many would have played Division IV…except they couldn't use a slapshot…so they all picked Division III. So now, you had a couple beginner teams that could barely skate (but weren't gonna play in a non-slapshot league)…and you got a couple Division I teams that wanted to try to go undefeated…and about 4-5 Division II teams that thought Division II was just a little too hard. So some games…we (a true Division III/II team) would play a close game…then we'd beat beginners 8-1…then we'd lose to a team 11-0.

Fortunately…the rink changed their policy and would re-seed teams after 5 weeks into "divisions within divisions"…so if a team was 5-0 with 49 goals and only 2 goals against…they'd be Div. IIIA…and the teams getting killed would be in Div.IIID…etc...

[MICHAEL]

I second that! Last week I had to bowl against someone with a 89 average. At first that looks like a slam dunk until you look at her handicap. And you consider that with an average like that; she has no where to go but up up up.. And how does someone with an 89 average have a "bad game"? By having a 79 game? That large handicap feels like a mountain sometimes. But in that league, it's part of the fun and gives everyone equal footing. BTW, Hugh Miller is on our league and carrying an average in high 220's. If I bowl against him, there would be the chance he would have an "off game" down in the 180's or something.

But bowling god Michael, you roller of 300's should really consider a scratch league! :-)

I have my moments Rob2, lol... not sure I am ready for scratch! Remember, I just got into bowling a few years back, after retirement!!! I don't need my Ego destroyed at this point in time.. LOL Of my 3 leagues, I am only getting 5 pins on one, and none on the other two! damn,,,, maybe I should!!

You know its hard to find a scratch league period!! I wonder if in other parts of the country they have more choice in regards to scratch leagues???

[bowlerRob2]

You know its hard to find a scratch league period!! I wonder if in other parts of the country they have more choice in regards to scratch leagues???

Not much choice up here either although I know of one nearby. However I figure that when I am ready for that step, I can do tournaments. Should be plenty of scratch tourneys around your area.

[Hampe]

I haven't really noticed any problems like that, Iceman (playing bad against certain teams). It actually seems like the opposite most times. Sometimes it feels like our opponents that week are bowling their best series of the season. I hate when that happens.

As for the guy who was openly joking about sandbagging.....that's about as despicable as it gets (as far as bowling goes). If I were the world emperor of bowling, anybody who openly bragged or joked about sandbagging would receive a 3 year ban.....lifetime for second offences! You can't stop sandbagging, since it's easy to miss a spare or just throw a washout while looking like you're trying, but I can't stand people who chuck the ball in the gutter and then brag/joke about it.....those people should have their balls sawn in half!

[Aslan]

Not much choice up here either although I know of one nearby. However I figure that when I am ready for that step, I can do tournaments. Should be plenty of scratch tourneys around your area.

Theres a decent amount of them in Cali Iceman...so you can always move back out here!

The scratch leagues are usually smaller...but I bowl next to one on Thursdays and there are at least 3 advertisements in the bowling news paper each month. If you want to find one...just page through that little newspaper/magazine they have in the alley...you'd be surprised.

And I'm not saying anyone MUST join a scratch league. I'm just saying if your average is over 190 (PBA entry level)...and you are frustrated getting beat by bowlers with 105 averages and a ton of handicap pins...BOWL IN A SCRATCH LEAGUE. Those people with the 105 averages are EXACTLY WHERE THEY BELONG...it's YOU that is in a league you probably don't belong in. It's not THEM...they have nowhere else to go except no-tap.

If it was up to me...and it was my alley (which would be mecha cool):

- All new players and players with an average lower than 121 are in a no-tap league.
- Players with averages between 121-189 are placed in a sanctioned handicap league.
- All players with averages of 190 or greater are placed in a sanctioned scratch league.

Problem solved. And your placement is based on your USBC average...which if you played in other than no-tap last season...is on record. So if you want to waste a season sandbagging your way back into a handicap league...go ahead. You'll just be bumped back into scratch the next time you want to join a league. Because your previous average at THIS ALLEY takes precedence over your last USBC average at another alley (if it was within the last 5 years).

Player A- beginner...105 average. Plays no-tap for one 20-week league...finishes with a no-tap 140 average. Gets moved to handicap/sanctioned league...ends up with a 126 average...stays in that league for 1,2, 3 years...ends year 3 with a 190 average...gets bumped to scratch league...struggles and finishes with a 164 average...bumped back down to handicap/sanctioned....etc... If some player wants to play no tap...they have to waste 20 weeks sandbagging in handicap league. If a guy (lets say Iceman) doesn't like being the 12th best bowler in the scratch league...he either has to improve or has to sandbag for 20 weeks in scratch league to get a 189 average and get bumped back to handicap league.

It's a great system...similar to Euro soccer...you're too good...bump to elite...you aren't good enough...bump back down to a level. You could even do it where the bottom 10% of the top two leagues get bumped down while the top 10% get bumped up..which would hinder sandbaggers even more.

The ONLY downside to this idea...is it messes with "teams". If you have 4 coworkers and join a 5-person team together...and love playing together...and two people score a 105 and 106, two throw 126 averages, and their one good player ends the season at 189...the team has to split up...with the 2 worst players staying no-tap...and the other 3 moving up to handicap. And if they're okay with that...and that one good player ends the season with a 201 average...now the team gets split up again.

But I still like the concept. You wanna bowl with your buddy in handicap league...it don't take much practice to bowl 122 no-tap. A 6-year old rolling the ball down the center of the lane can score 120 no-tap. And it keeps handicaps reasonable...because there's not gonna be many 100 average bowlers in the handicap league. A 178 average could get you zero pins...while the worst bowler may have a 124 average and get at most 47 pins. The main "objections" would come from those guys currently sporting 200-220 averages in handicap leagues...that don't want to go from seeing their name at the top of the scoring sheet each week to suddenly facing tough competion.

[e-tank]

^ i like that idea

I think our team handicap in league is about 80. Gf has 40, me and my friend have 20 and the last guy has 0. Nothing i hate more than a high handicap team that has a good series and we get destroyed. I dont think im good enough for scratch yet but i do want to look into a sport shot league and tournaments