"Muscling" the backswing?

[zdawg]

So one of the things I want to work on is creating a bigger backswing - partially because my coach told me my backswing was too short, and partially because I've been recording myself a lot lately and I can see what he is talking about. He also had me stop pushing the ball out in favor of a hinge method, so it feels like it causes the backswing to be even shorter.

I'm considering forcing or muscling the ball a bit on the backswing to allow it to get some height, before letting gravity take over completely on the forward swing. To be clear, I'm not interested in Mike Fagan height on my backswing, just something closer (not necessarily exactly) to parallel to the floor at the maximum height of the backswing.

Just using gravity after the ball drops has left me with a frustratingly small backswing, and I can't help but think I'm doing something wrong or that I should help it a bit just to get it to a reasonable height.

[bowl1820]

Take a look at this article.
Click for How High Can A Free Swing Go?

by Ron Clifton

[zdawg]

Take a look at this article.
Click for How High Can A Free Swing Go?

by Ron Clifton

Thanks, that looks like it could help me a lot!

[Aslan]

Thats odd what your coach is saying. The pros I've worked with have said the opposite which is to:

A) Push the ball out rather than let it "drop"...
and
B) Shorten the backswing...

Thats odd...but it seems like to increase your backswing without "muscling"...can't you just start with the ball higher (chin level vs. waist level for instance)? IDK...just an idea.

[sprocket]

Thats odd what your coach is saying. The pros I've worked with have said the opposite which is to:

A) Push the ball out rather than let it "drop"...
and
B) Shorten the backswing...

Thats odd...but it seems like to increase your backswing without "muscling"...can't you just start with the ball higher (chin level vs. waist level for instance)? IDK...just an idea.

I think the reason that tends to not work is because the swing has an overall length and and overall time to execute. The feet tend to time themselves to the swing. A swing that starts higher often results with the feet starting to move along with the initial ball movement. In order to stay in time the back swing ends up shorter. If you think about it you probably see it all the time; a bowler starts the ball high and really tries to exaggerate the pushaway in an attempt to lengthen their back swing, yet invariably their feet start to move at the start of the swing and when the feet are getting ready for release, the ball is barely past their hip!

I like the Idea of spine tilt far more. I think Ron Clifton is exactly right. An easy smooth pushaway with properly timed spine tilt will result in the ball getting higher in the back swing even though the actual total swing length hasn't changed!

[zdawg]

I think the reason that tends to not work is because the swing has an overall length and and overall time to execute. The feet tend to time themselves to the swing. A swing that starts higher often results with the feet starting to move along with the initial ball movement. In order to stay in time the back swing ends up shorter. If you think about it you probably see it all the time; a bowler starts the ball high and really tries to exaggerate the pushaway in an attempt to lengthen their back swing, yet invariably their feet start to move at the start of the swing and when the feet are getting ready for release, the ball is barely past their hip!

I like the Idea of spine tilt far more. I think Ron Clifton is exactly right. An easy smooth pushaway with properly timed spine tilt will result in the ball getting higher in the back swing even though the actual total swing length hasn't changed!

I think you've hit the nail on the head with that, its a timing issue. My coach is Mark Baker btw, so I tend to watch a lot of Chris Barnes's stuff a) because he's coached by Mark Baker and b) because his form is pretty much as close to perfect as I've seen - and while I realize I'm built differently than him he too has that "hinge push off" rather than pushing the ball out and down if that makes sense.

And Aslan, you're right on starting the ball higher, originally I was starting at about belt height but he had me start much higher (around chest level). I'm still playing around with it when I practice, I think I'll try leaning a bit per the article that Bowl1820 linked to above

[Aslan]

And Aslan, you're right on starting the ball higher, originally I was starting at about belt height but he had me start much higher (around chest level). I'm still playing around with it when I practice, I think I'll try leaning a bit per the article that Bowl1820 linked to above

I had the opposite issue in that I was starting with the ball at face level and just "dropping" it. So the coaches I've worked with have stressed a more "beltline" starting point and an outward push (rather than a "drop"). This was a tough adjustment at first...but like sprocket...once I saw the video of myself that the one coach shot...I realized that my backswing was far too high...way over shoulder/head level...and for a relative beginner...that adds a lot of speed and a lot of variability and timeing issues.

Thats also why I don't always agree with "doing it like the pros"...because many of those pros have such good timing and releases and equipment...that they'll have backswings that are nearly 270 degrees...straight above their heads (Mika, Rhino, etc...). If a beginner tries to mimic that...without the approach and equipment and release and timing at an advanced level....I would think it would lead to horribly inconsistent scoring...it did for me just being slightly above shoulder level.

[zdawg]

I had the opposite issue in that I was starting with the ball at face level and just "dropping" it. So the coaches I've worked with have stressed a more "beltline" starting point and an outward push (rather than a "drop"). This was a tough adjustment at first...but like sprocket...once I saw the video of myself that the one coach shot...I realized that my backswing was far too high...way over shoulder/head level...and for a relative beginner...that adds a lot of speed and a lot of variability and timeing issues.

Thats also why I don't always agree with "doing it like the pros"...because many of those pros have such good timing and releases and equipment...that they'll have backswings that are nearly 270 degrees...straight above their heads (Mika, Rhino, etc...). If a beginner tries to mimic that...without the approach and equipment and release and timing at an advanced level....I would think it would lead to horribly inconsistent scoring...it did for me just being slightly above shoulder level.

Agreed. In my case, my backswing was so short/slight (and still is but is slowly improving) that I was muscling the ball just to get it to go faster than 10 - 11 mph so I guess I started at the opposite end of the spectrum.

[Aslan]

Agreed. In my case, my backswing was so short/slight (and still is but is slowly improving) that I was muscling the ball just to get it to go faster than 10 - 11 mph so I guess I started at the opposite end of the spectrum.

WHOA! I need YOUR game...to combine with my game. Again...opposite problem...on heavy oil...i need to get down to about 13mph...and I just can't seem to get below about 15.5 without feeling like I'm just "dropping" it.

Bowling is an interesting journey....2 people starting their learning curves with opposite problems trying to reach that same eventual goal. Good luck!

[zdawg]

Bowling is an interesting journey....2 people starting their learning curves with opposite problems trying to reach that same eventual goal. Good luck!

It certainly is, and good luck to you as well