When did bowling become a battlefield between new and old?

[dpatrickv]

For example: Some might say that since nearly 100% of pro bowlers have graduated to modern or at least transitional approaches/releases…that it's a "no brainer". However, I'm not aware of more than 2 pros that bowl 2-handed nor ANY pro bowler that bowls thumbless. So if we simply use the logic, "do it because the pros do it and they know whats best." What would we say to a thumbless bowler?

Actually there is a number of thumbless and 2 handed pba pros out there. A thumbless one actually won the 2012 scorpion open(Tom Daughtery)

[Aslan]

With the changes in balls and lane conditions, strikes are much easier to get. If you cannot put strikes together you will lose. Spares are still important but only because getting spares in between your doubles, triples, etc. gives you a higher score than leaving opens.

I agree with that. It's actually depressing to me when I go out there and bowl a clean game and don't break 200. Then I see a guy with two open frames and he bowls 220-240. I agree, I think as scores have risen due to the equipment and oil pattern changes, running strikes together is imperative...especially at the higher levels. But I would still contend that in most leagues and lower level tournaments, even regional levels...90% of the time spare shooting is the determining factor.

Given the total domination that Jason Belmonte is demonstrating, I truly believe that 15 years from now two handed bowling will be the norm at the top levels unless it is banned at some point by either the PBA or the USBC. As to what to say to a thumbless bowler, I would say that power is only part of the equation, and that to be successful they need to figure out a way to incorporate accuracy as well. That, by the way, is why two handed bowling is here to stay: it allows thumbless bowlers to be accurate.

I guess it's semantics on what is "dominant". Walter Ray is "dominant". Earl Anthony was "dominant". Dick Weber was "dominannt". Some would argue Pete Weber is "dominant"...or even Norm Duke. You seem to discount "titles". Jason Belmonte isn't in the top FIFTY...in titles.

Now, the reason I think...Jason Belmonte is the best bowler RIGHT NOW....is:

1) He accomplished in 5 years what it took Wes Malott to accomplish in 12 and what it took Gary Dickinson to accomplish in 11.
2) I think on any given day, he is capable of beating any player in the World...more so than any other bowler.

The reason I'm still skeptical is:
1) Most all-time greats have had to adapt their game over time to stay dominant. He has not.
2) There are serious biomechanical questions as to whether 2-handed bowling is physically sustainable over time.
3) His PBA average in the high 220s is NOT that much different than any other bowler in the modern era. His 240-250 average that he's enjoying early in 2014...is likely not going to stand throughout the entire season.

Please forgive me if I occasionally show my frustration in these forums. I have dedicated many years of my life to becoming a student of the game to try and help bowlers improve their games. Please understand that professionally, I coach predominately 200+ average bowlers, some of whom bowl at the PBA Regional level. I think that you can probably see how frustrating it becomes when recreational bowlers ask for advice and then turn around and argue when I give it to them. Perhaps the problem is in defining the "next level." If you currently average 160 and your ultimate goal is to average 180, then bowl however you want: thumbless, blindfolded, or yes, even backwards. If, however, there is any possibility that you might, at some point, want to get really good, able to compete at the highest levels on the most challenging lane conditions, then you might as well start learning the modern fundamentals now because the longer you choose to ignore them, the harder it will be to learn them later.

Rob...as I eluded to in another thread....I completely understand this. I personally have seen it with other high level bowlers as well. And maybe it's natural that the better you get at something the less tolerant you become. But realize sometimes the difference between winning over a bowler and a potential fan and a potential salesperson and a potential witness and a potential etc... is simply the way you state the response. Especially in bowling where people learned how to do it 40 years ago...and many will NEVER bowl outside their local center. You're right...alot is about audience...and in bowling forums that audience varies greatly.

How many times have I heard people state the NEED for arsenals and how crucial it is for varying lane conditions and when oil breaks down and how every pro would agree. Then you ask that bowler how many different centers they bowl at and they say, "Oh. I only bowl at my one center twice a week." Really? So that person needs 7-9 bowling balls? On the off chance that what...the oil machine gets set to "random"?? And like YOU have said in your articles...how silly is it to have an arsenal and make 3 ball changes a series yet not know WHY?? I've seen it.

To me...the most important thing we should add to a person's bio or signature...that would help this kind of thing...is a little spot where a person can enter their GOALS. So if Rob M. sees a post by a gal who has the goal of a 170 average he can respond differently than to a gal who has the goal of winning the USBC Open. Beucase I'm willing to bet....the advice will be much different depending on those goals. Sometimes similar. But a lot of times different.

My goal this season was to play in my first league...to bowl in ONE low level tournament...to try and bowl a clean game 525+ series EVERY game...and to finish the season with a 190+ average (started at 121). Well...lets just say I accomplished 2 of the 3...but that 190 average in 24 weeks was a bit aggressive...so I'm hoping for a 170+ with only 6 weeks left in the season and a 166 average presently. Those are MY goals. As I get better...those goals will change. I'll never be in the PBA. I'll never be on TV. The BEST I could hope for would be to bowl in a PBA event or USBC Open....YEARS down the road. Bowl in...not dominate. Participate. Maybe a 300 game and an 800 series someday...before I die.

[dpatrickv]

I guess it's semantics on what is "dominant". Walter Ray is "dominant". Earl Anthony was "dominant". Dick Weber was "dominannt". Some would argue Pete Weber is "dominant"...or even Norm Duke. You seem to discount "titles". Jason Belmonte isn't in the top FIFTY...in titles.

And you seem to discount "time". Belmonte has been on the tour for SIX years. Walter Ray has been on tour for THIRTY FOUR. WRW has averaged 1.3 titles a year. Belmonte has averaged 1.3 titles a year(8 titles in 6 years). Earl Anthony was active for 36 years, with 41 titles.

It's almost borderline irritating on some of your comparisons. You cannot even begin to compare most of the bowlers on the top 50 list and and a guy who has been around 6 years. If you do you have to make the comparison fair, and not just say "HE HASNT EVEN CRACKED THE TOP 50!"(And to be honest, in terms of titles, he is in the top 50 as there are plenty who are tied together.)

Also, to say that Dick Weber was dominant and then hesitate to include PDW is just asinine.

[dpatrickv]

One last thing....in the first 6 years:
WRW had 3 titles.
Norm Duke had 1 title
PBIII had 5 titles
PDW had 4

[Aslan]

It's almost borderline irritating on some of your comparisons. You cannot even begin to compare most of the bowlers on the top 50 list and and a guy who has been around 6 years. If you do you have to make the comparison fair, and not just say "HE HASNT EVEN CRACKED THE TOP 50!"(And to be honest, in terms of titles, he is in the top 50 as there are plenty who are tied together.)

Is it fair to compare him to Wes Malott or Chris Barnes or Parker Bohn or Sean Rash?? So by your logic, whoever has the "hot hand" is hands down the best bowler ever? Bowling is measured in TITLES. The reason for that is guys like Anthony and Williams have amassed those titles on various conditions and formats over many years...proving their dominance. Belmonte has "proven" that he's a young bowler with a hot hand and possibly a bright future. Thats IT. Thats IT. He won 7 titles in 5 years. Thats great. The only GUARANTEE is....if he stops at 8....nobody will give a flying **** who he was or what he did. He will be an afterthought. Lets table this discussion until he's hit 20 titles and then revisit it. Anything less than that....to crown him King BEFORE then...is just fans talking trash to support their FAV.

Also, you have to realize there are differences now in terms to what the PBA is. Back in the old days, it was a sport open to lots of bowlers. If you were making the finals it was because you beat out a LOT of people to get there. Frome 2004 to 2011 (or 2010?) the tour was an "exempt" tour which meant the same roughly 30-40 bowlers competed each week meaning they were more likely to win because the field was so small. Fortunately they got rid of that in 2010 or 2011.

And it's not just "titles". Iceman praised Belmonte and his "Player of the Year" status...which he has won once. WRW won it 7 times!! Mika has won it twice! Parker Bohn has won it twice! And you act like they never won it with Belmo in the league...both Mika and WRW won it while Belmo was in the league!!

Like I said, I think Belmo has the hot hand. I think the PBA has a vested interest in these strugling times to make sure they "squeeze him in" any possible TV match. I think 2-handed bowling has helped grow the sport at the youth level. I can go on and on with my praise of Belmo. But if you want me to with a straight face nominate him for the PBA Hall of Fame because he was player of the year last year and won the first tournament of 2014....you're beyond nuts!! There are a LOT of bowlers that spent the better part of the last 3 decades to establish themselves as truly GREAT....and I don't just "bump" them because the new guy with the accent has a hot hand.

[dpatrickv]

My point is you are completely discounting Belmo's accomplishments when you shouldn't be. He has been on tour since 2008 and has won more than ANY other bowler in that time span(Look it up). Belmo has been more dominant in his first 5 years than the vast majority of PBA hall of famers have been in any 5 year span.

And it's not just "titles". Iceman praised Belmonte and his "Player of the Year" status...which he has won once. WRW won it 7 times!! Mika has won it twice! Parker Bohn has won it twice! And you act like they never won it with Belmo in the league...both Mika and WRW won it while Belmo was in the league!!

You have seriously got to stop comparing Belmo to people who have been on tour for 20 years. Mika won it twice? Spectacular, hes been on tour for what...15 years? PBIII has won it twice? Great, he's also been on tour 29 years. My point is you are comparing a guy who has been on tour for just over 5 years to guys who have been on tour for 2/3/4/5 times that long and trying to compare things like titles and POY awards. It's asinine man. Nobody is saying Belmo is the best bowler to have ever lived(Hell, he's far from my favorite all time bowler) but he is a force to be reckoned with and is immensely talented. Your severe dislike of his bowling style blinds you to his accomplishments. You don't need to like the guy or his style but to be blindly ignorant of how good and dominant he currently is is just ridiculous.

[Aslan]

I don't know if your picking and choosing what you are reading or what. You must be related to Bowl1820 because he does the same thing when I compliment him 19 times and criticize him once...he completely ignores the compliments and whines that I'm saying negative things about him.

I have REPEATEDLY said that I think he's the best player on the tour RIGHT NOW. I think he's the best player RIGHT NOW. I also have went on record saying it is HIS SKILL level...not his style...that allows him to be SO successful as a 2-handed bowler.

So...since you apparently have selective viewing clicked "on"....I will just end it there...he's my personal hero...my personal lover...I invented an ice cream flavor in his honor...I just switched to 2-handed and immediately added 314 pins to my average....and I'm wearing a pair of his underwear I stole from a laundrymat <-------- BEFORE he washed them...YES!!

So there...greatest now, greatest ever...and maybe now we can move on from talking about him constantly.

[Hampe]

I think he's the best player RIGHT NOW. I also have went on record saying it is HIS SKILL level...not his style...that allows him to be SO successful as a 2-handed bowler.

And that's where you are wrong. You refuse to acknowledge that the 2 handed game gives players an inherent advantage. Just like how the modern one-handed approach has an inherent advantage over the old school style. It's all about strike percentage and pin carry, and with more speed and revs generated by the 2 handed release Belmo has an advantage over all the one handed players on tour. I don't know how you have missed this, since they mention it every single telecast where he is involved.....

Now, he obviously also has great skill (ALL PBA players do). That's what differentiates him from Joe Blow-2 Hander at your local alley who started bowling 2 handed 3 years ago after he saw Belmo do it. Jason's been bowling 2 handed his whole life. Just wait until the next generation of kids that have been learning the 2 handed game their whole life turn pro.....they're most likely going to take over the sport.

[RobLV1]

My referral to Belmo's dominance has nothing to do with longevity; he hasn't been on tour long enough to judge that yet. I was referencing the fact that right now he has more power (speed/rev rate) than any other bowler and that, as Chris Barnes stated during the Clash last weekend, makes his pocket bigger than anyone else's. How will history view him? Who knows. But right now, he is the dominant force on the PBA (make that the World) Tour. As far as thumbless bowlers on Tour, yes, Tom Daugherty won a PBA Title. He also bowled the lowest game ever bowled on TV by a professional bowler (100). Not putting ones thumb in the ball adds power, but costs in terms of accuracy. There may occasionally be a bowler who doesn't put his thumb in the ball who wins a title, but it's just to hard to control for any consistency. Two handed bowling, however, is here to stay unless, as I stated earlier, some organization decides to ban it.

[MICHAEL]

And that's where you are wrong. You refuse to acknowledge that the 2 handed game gives players an inherent advantage. Just like how the modern one-handed approach has an inherent advantage over the old school style. It's all about strike percentage and pin carry, and with more speed and revs generated by the 2 handed release Belmo has an advantage over all the one handed players on tour. I don't know how you have missed this, since they mention it every single telecast where he is involved.....

Now, he obviously also has great skill (ALL PBA players do). That's what differentiates him from Joe Blow-2 Hander at your local alley who started bowling 2 handed 3 years ago after he saw Belmo do it. Jason's been bowling 2 handed his whole life. Just wait until the next generation of kids that have been learning the 2 handed game their whole life turn pro.....they're most likely going to take over the sport.

YOU ARE RIGH ON Hampe! Its here to stay, too many viewers enjoy the style, and high scores, not to mention the old school vs the UP AND COMING style!

I bet they raised hell back when the first finger tip balls came out vs the standard non finger tip drilling!

Its the evolution of the Sport, and Rob I bet you money its here to STAY!

Its not cheating! If it is the style that gives advantage, LEARN IT, or like so many other things in life, ,,,,,, be left behind! ( NOW am talking high school, college, and professional level)