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Thread: Finally I've seen the light at the end of the tunnel.

  1. #21
    Bowling God MICHAEL's Avatar
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    Default Mike vs Rob



    Iceman likes!! Mike vs Rob..... who is right? Is Rob a little condescending to Mike? Is Mike upset with the demeanor of Rob? Is Mike right, is Rob right...... tune in next week for the exciting conclusion!!

    I for ONE can't wait!!!
    Don't walk on Thin Ice!

  2. #22

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    Mike: If I had actually posted the two paragraphs that I had initially written, THAT would have been condescending. As it is, I'm serious. Enjoy your bowling. After all, that's what it's all about, isn't it?

  3. #23
    Bowling God MICHAEL's Avatar
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    Default Iceman does Enjoy Bowling

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Mike: If I had actually posted the two paragraphs that I had initially written, THAT would have been condescending. As it is, I'm serious. Enjoy your bowling. After all, that's what it's all about, isn't it?
    Which MIKE? MIke or MIKE? Just to keep things clear, call me Iceman if you would. I am just a observer, observing.

    Why did you change you mind and decided not to condesend? condescending can be a useful tool used to get your point across, when used with several analogies.

    I am just watching the ....

    Last edited by MICHAEL; 02-06-2014 at 10:44 AM.
    Don't walk on Thin Ice!

  4. #24

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    Iceman: Fair enough. What I was going to say in a nutshell was the fact that you bowled a 300 game and could not post a 700 series was plenty proof enough that you had the wrong ball in your hand, at least for the first game. See why I deleted it?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Okay, Mike, I was just trying to help. Use your Polar ICE and enjoy your bowling.

    Rob Mautner
    Just trying to help?

    You were preaching your dogma.

    Would a more aggressive ball found a little more friction and not entered the pocket behind the head pin?
    How was this question intended to be helpful?
    First it implies that the ball entered the pocket "behind the head pin".
    That is total BS.

    Yes a more aggressive ball would have found more friction.
    But what more aggressive ball would have found a little more friction?

    While the answer would at first glance appear to be yes. With a little more thought, I would say No.

    A more aggressive ball would have found a lot more friction.

    Pocket 7-10, ball hit like a marshmallow, need I say more?
    Well, if you had any evidence that my shot hit like a marshmallow, then maybe you wouldn't need to say more.

    But you just leave the question hanging out there with an assumed answer.

    Not really helpful is it?

    In modern bowling, the solid 8 is no longer "the only true tap." It's caused by a ball that deflects off the head pin, but not quite enough to result in a weak 10.
    You make a statement, that doesn't apply to the situation, because I'm not using the "modern" equipment.
    The pins are still in the same location as pre-modern.

    Helpful or preaching?

    Uh, oh!
    Helpful? if anything you are agreeing with my assessment that I shouldn't have made an adjustment based on an errant shot.

    If a one board adjustment gets you the BIG FOUR, then you are either using the wrong ball or playing the wrong line, or both.
    You didn't factor in my description of the errant target so that you could use the results as evidence of using the wrong ball.

    Helpful or preaching?

    As someone who writes about not using preconceived ideas, it's odd you've pretty much locked on to the "wrong" ball theory like a dog with a bone.

  6. #26
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post
    No, I was always too important to deal with riff raft like you
    Dick

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post
    BTW when are we going to have that shootout?

    On wood?
    You COCKY SOB!! So you throw ONE 300 game and now you're challenging the GREAT ASLAN for Southern California dominance!??? Wow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post
    And how did the other shootout go with the guy in San Diego?
    The "Aslan vs ZDawg Billy Hardwick Memorial Southern California Championship/Palooza is scheduled for Temecula on March 1st. So, it hasn't completed yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post
    BTW when you came to my place and we bowled, you saw me unsuccessfully trying to throw the modern ball.
    It's nothing like what I'm doing now.
    I hope not. I expect a challenge.

    Anytime after March 1st...but NOT the weekend of the 22nd where I'll be dominating my league and winning $$$ in Vegas...I would be HAPPY to ablige the GREAT Mike White and get a 1st Annual Phillip Seymour Hoffman Memorial Orange County Championship/Palooza started with you versus me. However, unlike ZDawg who I am graciously GIVING 10 pins per game to...I expect that great Mike White will be giving ME a bit of pins in handicap since I carry a 144-169 average and have been bowling 6 months where as his highness is a 300 game rolling 35 year veteran sporting a 200+ average. I'll settle for 35 pins per game in YOUR house or 20 pins on wood lanes. But realize, wood lanes disappear in April...FYI.

    But seriously, PM me your schedule for March/April because I need to have you tri-grip drill my Slingshot. I'm going to semi-retire the Frantic after league ends and need a back-up ball.

    Quote Originally Posted by MICHAEL View Post


    Iceman likes!! Mike vs Rob..... who is right? Is Rob a little condescending to Mike? Is Mike upset with the demeanor of Rob? Is Mike right, is Rob right...... tune in next week for the exciting conclusion!!

    I for ONE can't wait!!!
    You just like to start ***T. But thats cool. I get accused of starting ***t all the time.

    Rob is what I call a "paradox". And he's not "unique" in that way. What I mean by this is, I find many high level bowlers to have this "issue" (good or bad).

    First, the praise:
    Rob is AWESOME. Sites like this one and others LOVE to have a guy like Rob...because they provide a level of inside knowledge and experience that even an experienced amateur tournament player or league player simply doesn't have. So many, many responses to him will be SUPER positive...because no matter whether you agree or disagree...when you see a post by "RobLV1" you're OPENING it!! I PERSONALLY have found his articles and input to be VERY helpful. I am especially impressed with his knowledge of ball specifications and that type of thing.

    BUT (as Bowl1820 would say after hinting towards a non-COMPLETE dislike of Aslan)....

    I've found that experts and pros...in bowling and I'm sure other sports as well....tend to not like being disagreed with. They "tend" to think their opinions are infallible. And it's NOT just Rob. I've interacted with at LEAST FOUR pros/semi-pros/etc.. and ALL of them to varying degrees have a sort of "disinterest" in competing theories. The first time I interacted with Joe Slowinski...I wanted to hit him in the face. He came off as the most smug, disinterested, self important pr*ck. But...sometimes us "lowly beginner bowlers" have to take a step back...cherish the input...and take a breath.

    I've found Rob's input awesome. I love having him here and reading his stuff elsewhere. I agree with "some" of it. And I keep an open mind about the stuff I'm not so sure about. Yoú'd be surprised what an open mind can do for your game. That being said, I don't buy into "arsenals". I don't think traditional "stroking" is dead. And when Rob acts overly aggressive or (dare I say) "snarky" towards posters that disagree with one or more of his premises...I can see how that can be aggravating.

    I worked with a pro a couple times...and he was a nice guy and he was great and helped my game...but the ONE criticism I had of him...he didn't "listen". Now, he's a pro...one would argue...he doesn't need to listen to me and I should shut up and listen to him. But a good teacher/instructor has to have good 2-way dialougue (in my opinion) to be truly great at instruction. If you just want to shout dogma and expect everyone to listen and not question....thats not teaching. There may be something the student is struggling with in trying to implement your game/style...and simply "listening" will help you get that student to the next level.

    If I were Rob...and I heard Mike's story...I wouldn't respond to it as if it's some "shot over the bow" and an insult to his modern bowling theories. I'd instead take in WHY Mike bowls like that...where he's seeing success and failures...and maybe adapt your hints/input to his game. I know if it were ME (if I were Mike)...I'd be much more receptive to suggestions on modern bowling techniques to improve his game an convert him to a "transitional" bowler if they were phrased in a way that praised his accomplishment and offered just a couple hints/tidbits...rather than the way the post read, which was..."your accompishment is meaningless...and it must have been dumb luck since bowling with one urethane ball straight at the pocket is an abortion of a strategy."

    Mike criticizes and jabs at my game all the time. But I'm rather rare in that I strive on that criticism. If Mike says I'll never be a good bowler "chucking it"....I'm hell bent on proving him wrong. If Rob says I'm dumb for not using a plastic spare ball....then dammit...I'll use a reactive resin ball and work, work, work to prove him wrong. That DOESN'T mean....I'm so stubborn and pig headed that I'll continue to bowl crappy just to try and "prove a point". At some point...I will concede the point if I find it to truly be a weakness. Like "chucking it"...once I played on heavy oil and saw my 182 average drop to a 118 average...and realizing it was because of my insistence on that style...I conceded, and began working on an earlier release. Now that average has evened out to a 140-170...and rising.
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  7. #27
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Wow. That was longer than I meant it to be. Mudpuppy is gonna hate it. DHoff "would" hate it....but it's invisible to him.

  8. #28

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    Wow, "snarky," great word! Anyway, Aslan, thank you for the honest imput. If I seem to get frustrated when someone disagrees with me, it's because I do. It's not because I think I'm always right. I'm not (just ask my wife). My opinions do differ from most of the other posters here because they are based on a combination of research (what the "experts" say), education (what the powers that be say), experience (what I have found to be true for me as a bowler), and most importantly, observation (what have I seen in other bowlers). When I make a suggestion, it's often taken as confrontational by bowlers who stubbornly hang on to beliefs that are no longer relevant because of changes in the game. When I suggest, for instance, that bowlers can benefit from learning to work the inside of the ball, it's not because I think it's "better," it because the nature of modern synthetic lanes, reactive bowling balls, and dancing pins require that bowler's be able to project the ball out and down the lane to take full advantage of the modern conditions.

    Great games can still be bowled using "old fashioned" urethane bowling balls, it happens all the time. But when I observe, time after time, the frustrations of bowlers who want great games all the time, who finally come to the realization that to bowl great games all the time they have to modernize their games and learn about bowling balls, I try to save them some time and lots of aggrevation.

    Personally, I don't much like lugging five or six balls to bowl. The day before yesterday I was able to average 235 for four games using the same ball on two pairs of lanes and never moving more than three boards. Yesterday, at the same bowling center, I used five different bowling balls on two pairs of lanes and averaged 188. When, in the seventh frame of the final game, I pulled out the fifth ball, a ball that I rarely use and rarely have with me, I finally found something that worked. Did it salvage my set? No, I tried it too late. Did I learn something for next time? You betcha! Using multiple bowling balls is a necessity in modern bowling. Like it or not (most of us don't), it is a fact.

    Finally, as I said earlier in this thread, the physical basics of bowling have not changed much. When I suggest that bowlers learn to work the inside of the ball it's not because you have to do that to bowl well on all conditions, but you do have to learn to keep your hand behind the ball rather than coming over the top of it. Coming over the top is not traditional bowling, it just bad bowling. It was in 1975, and it is today. My point was, and is, that if you are coming over the top of the ball and want to improve, you might just as well learn to work the inside of the ball as the outside of the ball.

    Aslan, thank you for the kind words. I'm glad my efforts to help bowlers here are appreciated for the most part. Please be aware that if and when I sometimes come accross as condescending it is in no way intentional, just my way of venting some of my frustrations. When I make a suggestion that disagrees with someone's "belief," it is not an attack on the belief, just looking at it from a different perspective.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    Wow. That was longer than I meant it to be. Mudpuppy is gonna hate it. DHoff "would" hate it....but it's invisible to him.
    You got that right - I skipped it. Lost interest at "dick".

    It's the year of the horse - time to minimize EVERYTHING, i.e. continuous improvement. I am in the process of cleaning everything out and only keeping what is absolutely of value. Minimize. In terms of posts that means think long and hard about what you want to say and say it in a sentence, 2 if it is super important. Paragraphs are for the dark ages kids.

  10. #30
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Aslan, thank you for the kind words. I'm glad my efforts to help bowlers here are appreciated for the most part. Please be aware that if and when I sometimes come accross as condescending it is in no way intentional, just my way of venting some of my frustrations. When I make a suggestion that disagrees with someone's "belief," it is not an attack on the belief, just looking at it from a different perspective.
    Well said. And you just need to understand that no matter how much some of us argue and disagree and sometimes punch each other in the nuts....having your input and Bowl1820's input and vDub's input and Janderson and swingset, etc... makes this whole forum better for everyone. I've learned a LOT!! I'm still stuck in my ways a "tad"....but I'm trying. I may "poo poo" modern bowling a bit...but that doesn't stop me from trying to keep my hand behind the ball more or experimenting with the more relaxed release that Barry Asher taught me nor experiment with the DYDS stuff from Joe Slowinski. I may appear to "not be listening"...but I'm listening. Like I said...disagree with you or not....I've read all your articles on your site.

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