Flat 10 vs Ring 10

[Mike White]

I often thought ???? had a half dozen bowling books in his computer room, and he would just paraphrase them for many of his responses..
I look back at many of his threads, and I some time wonder if 30 percent of what he said was even close to the truth! His war stories, ???? lol was he even in the military??? who knows or cares!
Once You Catch a person lying, its hard to take anything they say serious!

I knew from finding out his true average, that he was not real!

LOL,, MIKE, I realize Rob is not a God, like Bill, but Opinions are ok in my book! I enjoy reading them all!

Do me a HUGE FAVOR MIKE,,,, GET ASLAN straightened OUT!! He needs HELP!! Bless his lonely womanless heart!
Do you have a sister out there MIKE? LOL

Talk about a huge favor…

Why not ask me to fix global climate change. It would be easier.

You can't shape play-doe after it has hardened to stone.

He may go to some coaching, but I think they look at him as a revenue source rather than a project.

I would need a willing subject, and in his case, would have to break him down to zero, and build back up.

There are just so many parts of his game that are fundamentally wrong.


Aslan, take a summer, winter, and summer off bowling league, so you can concentrate on technique rather than scores.

Come here twice a week, no charge, you just pay lineage.

Be willing to accept that what you're trying to do is all wrong.

I can get your game looking human.

But you can't half *** it trying to bowl league at the same time.


Aslan isn't completely womanless…
He does have a cute looking daughter.
Must get that from her mother.
Thats an assumption, I haven't met her mother.

But that begs another question.
How did Aslan get a good looking woman to breed with him?
Must have been a lot of alcohol involved.

[Mike White]

No rebuttal. I said what I have to say, and I stick by it. I'm tired of arguing. I do what I can to try and help bowlers to improve. I'm really not interested in convincing anyone that I'm right about anything. If you choose to listen to what I have to say, great. If you'd rather listen to Mike White, or anyone else for that matter, I have no problem with that. The fact that bowlers are looking to improve, and coming here and to other forums for advice is a very good thing. The only thing that's tough about it is determining whose advice to take, and whose to ignore. That, my friend, is up to you.

Did you ever think that by having a discussion about the inner workings of where your opinions come from, that you might find that some of those opinions were not correct.. and heaven forbid, learn something?

A simple one, that you seem to have latched on to real strong (based on the number of times you repeat it on your web site) is that the ball must reach its maximum rev rate ( you mistakenly call it the moment of inertia) before it starts to hook.

It's just flat out wrong.

When it reaches its maximum rev rate it begins to roll.

It's the point where the ball to lane friction changes from kinetic (sliding) to static (rolling)

Kinetic friction (sliding) makes the ball rev up (under the assumption the surface speed of the ball is lower than the forward speed of the center of the ball).
And any friction not in line with the path of the ball, will cause it to change direction (i.e. hook)


As for ringing 10 vs flat 10.

I was watching on Youtube the 1984 Angle Open, and Marshal Holman left a ringing 10 at 1:50

Later Nelson Burton Jr left a flat 10 at 3:06

Neither of these shots could possibly be considered coming in "behind the pocket"

Maybe the modern bowler has drastically increased the area which they consider to be the pocket since so many light shots carry because pins fly off the side boards.

[J Anderson]

The idea that the ball hits the "pocket" behind the head pin.

If you manage to get the ball to actually hit the head pin from "behind" you are likely to leave something like 2-4-8-10.

On those shots, it would be a massive stretch to call that hitting the pocket.


At the center I bowl at, the oil pattern (THS) is 10 to 10.

Given that your ball hooks too much straight down 13, would it be correct to say your ball hooks too much anywhere (from 1 to 17) you played straight down the boards?

I'm trying to gauge the difference between the oil pattern I see and the oil pattern you see.

The bowler I see this skidder happen to most often is the guy who lays the ball down at about 13, and hits 11 at the arrows, has a break point close to 7. But occasionally he will miss his mark left and throw the "frozen rope" into the pocket, leaving a flat 10.

It's not truly a straight shot, but since it only hooks about 3 boards, instead of the 11 boards he expects, it feels like it went straight.

Agreed on the pocket. I know at least one bowler who thinks as long as the ball so much as touches the 1 and the 3 it was "in the pocket". I'm not sure if he needs glasses or someone with a 230 average to explain to him the actual location of the pocket.

I may have to experiment next time I'm practicing. I seldom see a fresh oil house shot playing right handed. It's either second shift or a sport pattern. I know that left handed I can throw down 6 and have it hook into the pocket. Right handed I can throw a White dot down 8 and hook it to the pocket. I'll have to see where it actually goes if I throw down 13.

[tccstudent]

I may have to experiment next time I'm practicing. I seldom see a fresh oil house shot playing right handed. It's either second shift or a sport pattern. I know that left handed I can throw down 6 and have it hook into the pocket. Right handed I can throw a White dot down 8 and hook it to the pocket. I'll have to see where it actually goes if I throw down 13.

Wait a minute you are both handed

[J Anderson]

Wait a minute you are both handed

Yes I am, although you'll have to take my word for it. I don't think that the USBC is set up to keep track of separate averages. If you go to http://www.bowl.com/findamember/ and look for me member #337-3810 you'll see a big dip in my standard average in 08-09. That season and the next I bowled lefty in my regular league, and got my feet we bowling right-handed in the sport league. 11-12 I tried lefty all the time which explains the drop in sport league average. This season I'm right-handed in my regular leagues but lefty when I sub. Not to mention totally confused all the time

[RobLV1]

O.K., we seem to be getting a little confused here. I have never claimed to be a great bowler. I'll be the first to admit I'm not. I do claim to be a student of the game, an educated and certified coach who has helped many bowlers, both high average league bowlers as well as PBA Regional players. I have also written over 60 articles for BTM, as well as over a hundred more for other bowling publications. In 2013 I was named one of the top 100 Coaches by Bowlers Journal. For some reason golfers are smart enough to understand that Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, and Sean Foley have TWO things in common: they have all coached Tiger Woods, AND none of them have ever had their name on a PGA Leaderboard. Not too long ago Sean Foley, when asked in an interview why he didn't attend one of the well-known golf universities, said that his family did not have much money, and he wasn't a good enough player to get a scholarship.

Frankly, I think that posting my USBC number is one of the more tacky moves that I've witnessed in my life. Hopefully most of the bowlers on here are smart enough to realize that there is a totally different skill set involved in being a coach than in being a participant.

I will continue to try and help any bowlers who can benefit by it. My "opinions" are a composite of what accepted bowling experts have written, or told me personally. As I posted earlier, believe who you want to, I really don't care. I have enough confidence in my knowledge and intellect that I really don't feel the need to defend myself from some self-proclaimed experts on a bowling chat site.

Thanks for making my day. Reading all this makes me feel a whole lot better about the crappy round of golf I played today.

[MICHAEL]

O.K., we seem to be getting a little confused here. I have never claimed to be a great bowler. I'll be the first to admit I'm not. I do claim to be a student of the game, an educated and certified coach who has helped many bowlers, both high average league bowlers as well as PBA Regional players. I have also written over 60 articles for BTM, as well as over a hundred more for other bowling publications. In 2013 I was named one of the top 100 Coaches by Bowlers Journal. For some reason golfers are smart enough to understand that Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, and Sean Foley have TWO things in common: they have all coached Tiger Woods, AND none of them have ever had their name on a PGA Leaderboard. Not too long ago Sean Foley, when asked in an interview why he didn't attend one of the well-known golf universities, said that his family did not have much money, and he wasn't a good enough player to get a scholarship.

Frankly, I think that posting my USBC number is one of the more tacky moves that I've witnessed in my life. Hopefully most of the bowlers on here are smart enough to realize that there is a totally different skill set involved in being a coach than in being a participant.

I will continue to try and help any bowlers who can benefit by it. My "opinions" are a composite of what accepted bowling experts have written, or told me personally. As I posted earlier, believe who you want to, I really don't care. I have enough confidence in my knowledge and intellect that I really don't feel the need to defend myself from some self-proclaimed experts on a bowling chat site.

Thanks for making my day. Reading all this makes me feel a whole lot better about the crappy round of golf I played today.

Sorry to hear about that crappy round of golf!! LOL,,,, wish I could play around here but too much snow, and I don't like playing with orange balls in the snow!!
Many Great coaches, never even played the sport they coached! Point made, I agree! (

I for one know your not a phone like someone else we had on this site, that was lying about his scores!
Your scores are nothing to be upset about! You and me are about on the same page, and I for one am proud
of my accomplishments that can be verified, I post, and think everyone one should my USBC number!

Should someone post your USBC number? I wouldn't, I only did on ONE person! The Lies were JUST TO MUCH FOR me to handle!

Keep the good stuff coming, its appreciated very much! Everyone Coach has his OWN ideas, and thoughts related to the sport they teach.

I enjoy Mike's thread, and yours equally!! A Chinese Wise Man once said, "Knowledge is the Key to good bowling!"

Another great philosopher once said, " Sticks and Stones my break my bones, but bowling disagreements and commits really only cause heartburn, loss of sleep, and emotional distress!

My golf is usually around 80, to 90! I play, and bowl in sandals!

[Pauley]

Keep the good stuff coming, its appreciated very much!

X2! It is appreciated. I enjoy learning about bowling as much as I enjoy bowling and you have a great amount of knowledge and thank you for sharing it with us.

[swingset]

O.K., we seem to be getting a little confused here. I have never claimed to be a great bowler. I'll be the first to admit I'm not. I do claim to be a student of the game, an educated and certified coach who has helped many bowlers, both high average league bowlers as well as PBA Regional players. I have also written over 60 articles for BTM, as well as over a hundred more for other bowling publications. In 2013 I was named one of the top 100 Coaches by Bowlers Journal. For some reason golfers are smart enough to understand that Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, and Sean Foley have TWO things in common: they have all coached Tiger Woods, AND none of them have ever had their name on a PGA Leaderboard. Not too long ago Sean Foley, when asked in an interview why he didn't attend one of the well-known golf universities, said that his family did not have much money, and he wasn't a good enough player to get a scholarship.

Frankly, I think that posting my USBC number is one of the more tacky moves that I've witnessed in my life. Hopefully most of the bowlers on here are smart enough to realize that there is a totally different skill set involved in being a coach than in being a participant.

I will continue to try and help any bowlers who can benefit by it. My "opinions" are a composite of what accepted bowling experts have written, or told me personally. As I posted earlier, believe who you want to, I really don't care. I have enough confidence in my knowledge and intellect that I really don't feel the need to defend myself from some self-proclaimed experts on a bowling chat site.

Thanks for making my day. Reading all this makes me feel a whole lot better about the crappy round of golf I played today.

I have no dog in this pissing match except to say in this case your take on a technical matter was directly challenged (as is fair and customary on a discussion site). You refused a rebuttal. Instead you say you won't defend yourself from a self-proclaimed expert, as you then tell us why you're an expert.

That's a lot of calories burned for people you don't care about. I don't care what your average is, but if you're going to give advice then be prepared to be contradicted and be prepared to demonstrate the knowledge you profess to have.

If you're right, and want to be taken seriously, then explain why you're right or take your lumps. As a coach, you should understand that anyone reading countering opinions on a technical matter would prefer that those opinions be backed up with explanation and details, not your resume.

I've found many of the things you've written about very informative and appreciate your input, but this is turning personal and the way to defend it is to defend it with facts, not purse swinging.

Your experience might tell you you're right, but that doesn't mean someone reading your words should or can trust your words. You have to demonstrate something beyond "I'm a coach, so listen to me". This is not a visual medium, it's a contest of words and ideas.

If you refuse to hit the ball back, you lose.

[RobLV1]

Swingset: You're right, this is turning personal and that is exactly why I will not "defend" my position. When I said I don't care who people listen to I was being dead serious. I have no personal stake in being "right." I've spent countless hours researching, observing, and reflecting upon the sport of bowling. I do it because I love the game, and as a retired school teacher I love doing research and, yes, thinking. The thought that the conclusions that I have arrived upon through the research, observations, and thought that I have put into the sport, are somehow invalid because of my bowling average is absurd, to say the least. Based on your statement, if I choose not to "hit the ball back," I don't lose, you do. If one person decides not to play the game, there can be no game. I choose not to play!