Is it okay to put the fingers into the shot with current bowling balls?

[bowl1820]

Wow! Iceman has been told by MANY good bowlers around town, "Put some Finger, LIFT, into that ball."

Now your saying don't lift? bowl1820, your saying don't lift?

No, I said Rob said the faster you learn not to lift (aka: putting fingers into, hitting up) on the ball, the better off you'll be.

Here's one to read from Susie Minshew about lift:
http://www.strikeability.com/secret2.php

Excerpt:
Lift is what you do to the ball to get it off the ball return. When people talk about lift in bowling, they are usually referring to what they had to do 'in the old days' to get the ball to finish. With rubber and plastic and even some urethane, the exit of the fingers was usually a pulling upward toward the palm (referred to as 'putting some fingers in the shot'). If you do that in today's game, the powerful balls you are throwing behave very erratically and you hit the ball on the upswing, a very bad thing in the modern game. Today that behavior is kind of built in to the balls.

What folks are really describing when they mention lift is leverage. Leverage is having your body in the correct position to deliver the most powerful shot possible with the least amount of effort.

[sprocket]

I find it interesting that the problem you see in the 2nd video is the muscling.

I'm curious as a no thumb bowler, how do you achieve 17.5 - 19 mph without a long pendulum backswing?

With a combination of muscle and leg drive. I believe I have mentioned several times on these forums that I would not teach or want anyone copying my game. I'm pretty sure I even mentioned that I would like to coach but find my own game to be a contradiction to what I would be teaching and that holds me back.

I admire the first video because it is CLOSE to being a great non-muscled delivery. In the second video, from the top down things look much more forced. That's my opinion.

And this confirms how I feel about giving any opinions or advice when my own game is what it is.

[RobLV1]

The technological changes that have affected the modern game of bowling (reactive resin balls with dynamic cores, synthetic lanes, synthetic lane conditioners, etc.) have resulted in many misconceptions resulting from things that used to be true before all the changes. This thread is actually dealing with many of them. First and formost, I don't think that you will find a qualified bowling coach anywhere that would advocate muscling the ball. A higher ball speed which has really become mandatory in the modern game comes from a muscle-free armswing that lets gravity, in combination with footwork, create it. The players who hinge the ball rather than pushing it away do away with the idea that a big push away is required for speed, yet in the case of players who are shorter (Norm Duke and Rhino Page come to mind), it can help to add to the speed that is generated. The thing that creates the ball speed is timing that gets the ball to the line at the same time as the sliding foot. This is really hard for traditional bowlers to understand as it is contradictory to the old school thought that you need late timing to create revs. Remember that before the introduction of modern equipment, bowlers had to try to hook the ball. They used late timing to pull the ball through, ripping their thumbs out of the ball and turning it to get it to hook. The fact that late timing back then also resulted in slower ball speed was no big deal since the slower ball speed also gave the ball more time to hook.

Enter modern equipment that is more reactive, so it requires more speed, and has dynamic cores that has done away with the need to do anything to make the ball hook, and what you have is a situation where all of the things that bowlers used to do to improve their games, have now begun to work against them. So what are the keys to an effective game today? 1. Neutral Timing (the ball and the slide foot arrive at the foul line at the same time). 2. A muscle-free armswing. 3. A release that rolls the ball rather than "hits" the ball. 4. The ability to project the ball out, away from the pins, rather than pointing it at the pins.

If you can develop these four traits, your bowling will do nothing but improve. Please note that I talked about a release that rolls the ball rather than "hits" the ball. I purposely did not refer to a modern release that works the inside of the ball. That concept has stuck in the minds of league bowlers, who think that it is something that they'll try in league or in practice. Developing a modern release is not something that you just decide to do. It takes hundreds of hours of dedicated practice, much of it practicing boring one-step drills that are about as exciting as watching your hair grow. Most bowlers do not have the time, the patience, nor the motivation the develop a modern release. That's O.K.. Unless your ultimate goal is to make a living bowling the PBA Tour (what's left of it), you really do not need a modern release. You do, however, need to develop the four traits outlined above to become the best league bowler you can be. The easiest and most effective way to develop these traits is to find a qualified coach to help you.

Questions?

[MICHAEL]

The technological changes that have affected the modern game of bowling (reactive resin balls with dynamic cores, synthetic lanes, synthetic lane conditioners, etc.) have resulted in many misconceptions resulting from things that used to be true before all the changes. This thread is actually dealing with many of them. First and formost, I don't think that you will find a qualified bowling coach anywhere that would advocate muscling the ball. A higher ball speed which has really become mandatory in the modern game comes from a muscle-free armswing that lets gravity, in combination with footwork, create it. The players who hinge the ball rather than pushing it away do away with the idea that a big push away is required for speed, yet in the case of players who are shorter (Norm Duke and Rhino Page come to mind), it can help to add to the speed that is generated. The thing that creates the ball speed is timing that gets the ball to the line at the same time as the sliding foot. This is really hard for traditional bowlers to understand as it is contradictory to the old school thought that you need late timing to create revs. Remember that before the introduction of modern equipment, bowlers had to try to hook the ball. They used late timing to pull the ball through, ripping their thumbs out of the ball and turning it to get it to hook. The fact that late timing back then also resulted in slower ball speed was no big deal since the slower ball speed also gave the ball more time to hook.

Enter modern equipment that is more reactive, so it requires more speed, and has dynamic cores that has done away with the need to do anything to make the ball hook, and what you have is a situation where all of the things that bowlers used to do to improve their games, have now begun to work against them. So what are the keys to an effective game today? 1. Neutral Timing (the ball and the slide foot arrive at the foul line at the same time). 2. A muscle-free armswing. 3. A release that rolls the ball rather than "hits" the ball. 4. The ability to project the ball out, away from the pins, rather than pointing it at the pins.

If you can develop these four traits, your bowling will do nothing but improve. Please note that I talked about a release that rolls the ball rather than "hits" the ball. I purposely did not refer to a modern release that works the inside of the ball. That concept has stuck in the minds of league bowlers, who think that it is something that they'll try in league or in practice. Developing a modern release is not something that you just decide to do. It takes hundreds of hours of dedicated practice, much of it practicing boring one-step drills that are about as exciting as watching your hair grow. Most bowlers do not have the time, the patience, nor the motivation the develop a modern release. That's O.K.. Unless your ultimate goal is to make a living bowling the PBA Tour (what's left of it), you really do not need a modern release. You do, however, need to develop the four traits outlined above to become the best league bowler you can be. The easiest and most effective way to develop these traits is to find a qualified coach to help you.

Questions?

Aslsan does need something,,, modern or not!! hopefully you can help him Rob!! God knows everyone else has, including Mike White! If not you Rob,,, I fear the worst!!

[Aslan]

One thing I'm starting to see on various bowling forums, is these type of discussions can sometimes become "contentious" because we are lacking a very basic premise to the discussion. What are your goals?

For example; if PDW or Norm Duke are participating...then the topic becomes the modern release and how they can "tweak" it to give them that narrow edge over the competion. But if we're talking to a bowler that wants to elevate their average from 158 to 191...it's a COMPLETELY different topic.

I admit, that was hard to learn early on. I think all of us think that if we emulate a pro or learn pro techniques and throw "pro level" bowling balls...that it'll make us better. But thats NOT necessarily the case as Rob sort of eluded to. I personally think a bowler that bowls in ONE HOUSE....a couple leagues a week....and has no inkling to ever go the tournament route or join a sport league...has absolutely no need or business carrying a 4-11 ball arsenal and learning "the modern release". In MOST cases...it'll be more detrimental to their game than helpful.

And where I deviate from the "modern bowling" theories is that NO MATTER WHAT the changes to lane conditions or bowling balls...the BOTTOM LINE is it's still a ball going 60 feet into 10 pins. The GAME hasn't changed. It's still about accuracy and consistent shots. It's STILL about picking up spares. We've unfortunately forgot that as we've gotten lost in the new era of everyone getting 2-3 "300 games" per year...and averages in the 220-250 range for most good house bowlers. I think we sometimes make this game out to be harder than it has to be. Straighter is still greater. The pocket is still in the same spot. A bowler with consistency and good lateral movement will still have an advantage over some cranker or thumbless bowler that gets above average carry but can't consistently hit their spot.

I've struggled with it as well. Probably more than most. It seems logical that if I want to be the best I can be...I NEED to learn the most advanced approaches and throw the most advanced equipment. But thats not the case. Rolling a bigger hook ball actually hurt my game. Trying to throw "correctly" actually made my average go down. Because I started worrying more about pin carry and optimal angles and I stopped concentrating on accuracy and consistency. I convinced myself that if you can't throw with the same release as Chris Barnes...you might as well just quit the sport and play Wii bowling.

I'm NOT saying we shouldn't all strive to get better and be the best we can be. And I'm NOT going to settle for just being a pathetic house bowler that rolls a 200 average and throws 3 300-games a season but never strives for anything more. I WILL eventually play in amateur tournaments and expand my game. But I doubt the PBA will even be around by the time I get good and consistent enough to move to the next level...and if they are...they only exist to showcase the same 30 bowlers we've seen for the last 7 years...it's more "entertainment" than bowling.

So...after boring Mudpuppy to death with the above...in a nutshell...the "need" for a modern release came from the "need" for modern equipment...which came from the "need" to increase scoring which came from the "need" to make bowling more popular to the masses. We're trying to tell the bowling public that they "need" to develop this release....because it's a different game....because WE MADE IT a different game. We "need" to control a hook that we PUT IN the ball. Had we not made the equipment so hook dominant in the first place...we wouldn't have the "need" to change our releases. So follow Mike White's example...throw a Storm Polar Ice or Storm Mix...standard release...= 300-game. Don't MAKE the game more complicated then complain that you need the "modern release" because now the game is more complicated.

I'm still working with DYDS...I'm still open to changing my release. But the bottom line is...taking your hand from the inside quadrant to back of the ball...rotates the ball the same as taking your hand from behind the ball and moving it a quarter up the side. Same rev direction...same rev rate...same ball...same everything. There's NOTHING wrong with the old release. If you bought a new ball and it hooks too much...thats your own damn fault. Learn to play inside. Learn to increase your speed or loft. I disagree with Rob...You CAN outbowl a bad ball reaction. It's a BALL!! It's not an alien species! YOU're in control!! The ball doesn't skid 45 feet and make a conscious decision to "not hook"....it's a BALL...it does what you make it do!

[Mudpuppy]

One thing I'm starting to see on various bowling forums, is these type of discussions can sometimes become "contentious" because we are lacking a very basic premise to the discussion. What are your goals?

For example; if PDW or Norm Duke are participating...then the topic becomes the modern release and how they can "tweak" it to give them that narrow edge over the competion. But if we're talking to a bowler that wants to elevate their average from 158 to 191...it's a COMPLETELY different topic.

I admit, that was hard to learn early on. I think all of us think that if we emulate a pro or learn pro techniques and throw "pro level" bowling balls...that it'll make us better. But thats NOT necessarily the case as Rob sort of eluded to. I personally think a bowler that bowls in ONE HOUSE....a couple leagues a week....and has no inkling to ever go the tournament route or join a sport league...has absolutely no need or business carrying a 4-11 ball arsenal and learning "the modern release". In MOST cases...it'll be more detrimental to their game than helpful.

And where I deviate from the "modern bowling" theories is that NO MATTER WHAT the changes to lane conditions or bowling balls...the BOTTOM LINE is it's still a ball going 60 feet into 10 pins. The GAME hasn't changed. It's still about accuracy and consistent shots. It's STILL about picking up spares. We've unfortunately forgot that as we've gotten lost in the new era of everyone getting 2-3 "300 games" per year...and averages in the 220-250 range for most good house bowlers. I think we sometimes make this game out to be harder than it has to be. Straighter is still greater. The pocket is still in the same spot. A bowler with consistency and good lateral movement will still have an advantage over some cranker or thumbless bowler that gets above average carry but can't consistently hit their spot.

I've struggled with it as well. Probably more than most. It seems logical that if I want to be the best I can be...I NEED to learn the most advanced approaches and throw the most advanced equipment. But thats not the case. Rolling a bigger hook ball actually hurt my game. Trying to throw "correctly" actually made my average go down. Because I started worrying more about pin carry and optimal angles and I stopped concentrating on accuracy and consistency. I convinced myself that if you can't throw with the same release as Chris Barnes...you might as well just quit the sport and play Wii bowling.

I'm NOT saying we shouldn't all strive to get better and be the best we can be. And I'm NOT going to settle for just being a pathetic house bowler that rolls a 200 average and throws 3 300-games a season but never strives for anything more. I WILL eventually play in amateur tournaments and expand my game. But I doubt the PBA will even be around by the time I get good and consistent enough to move to the next level...and if they are...they only exist to showcase the same 30 bowlers we've seen for the last 7 years...it's more "entertainment" than bowling.

So...after boring Mudpuppy to death with the above...in a nutshell...the "need" for a modern release came from the "need" for modern equipment...which came from the "need" to increase scoring which came from the "need" to make bowling more popular to the masses. We're trying to tell the bowling public that they "need" to develop this release....because it's a different game....because WE MADE IT a different game. We "need" to control a hook that we PUT IN the ball. Had we not made the equipment so hook dominant in the first place...we wouldn't have the "need" to change our releases. So follow Mike White's example...throw a Storm Polar Ice or Storm Mix...standard release...= 300-game. Don't MAKE the game more complicated then complain that you need the "modern release" because now the game is more complicated.

I'm still working with DYDS...I'm still open to changing my release. But the bottom line is...taking your hand from the inside quadrant to back of the ball...rotates the ball the same as taking your hand from behind the ball and moving it a quarter up the side. Same rev direction...same rev rate...same ball...same everything. There's NOTHING wrong with the old release. If you bought a new ball and it hooks too much...thats your own damn fault. Learn to play inside. Learn to increase your speed or loft. I disagree with Rob...You CAN outbowl a bad ball reaction. It's a BALL!! It's not an alien species! YOU're in control!! The ball doesn't skid 45 feet and make a conscious decision to "not hook"....it's a BALL...it does what you make it do!

1. I read it all in its entirety without yawning or any boredom. It was a good post. Do I agree 100%? No. But you make some good points.
2. What is wrong with WII bowling?
3. Personally I love all the hook that has been put into the modern balls - when it destroys the pins it is such a beautiful sight

63.75% of my game hinges on my release - if my release is off it's a guaranteed light pocket shot, missed pocket shot, split or something else catastrophic. This usually happens at a pivotal moment in the game. Nothing worse than the walk of shame after a bad shot when you needed a good shot more than a fish needs water.

[zdawg]

63.75% of my game hinges on my release - if my release is off it's a guaranteed light pocket shot, missed pocket shot, split or something else catastrophic. This usually happens at a pivotal moment in the game. Nothing worse than the walk of shame after a bad shot when you needed a good shot more than a fish needs water.

Same here, in fact if I string together 3 or 4 strikes its a guarantee that the next one my wrist will break, my release will start too early and I'll come over the top, or I'll pull the ball. Frustrating, but that's why I focus 100% on my release for now until I can get much better consistency.

[Aslan]

1. I read it all in its entirety without yawning or any boredom. It was a good post. Do I agree 100%? No. But you make some good points.
2. What is wrong with WII bowling?
3. Personally I love all the hook that has been put into the modern balls - when it destroys the pins it is such a beautiful sight

63.75% of my game hinges on my release - if my release is off it's a guaranteed light pocket shot, missed pocket shot, split or something else catastrophic. This usually happens at a pivotal moment in the game. Nothing worse than the walk of shame after a bad shot when you needed a good shot more than a fish needs water.

For the Win!! So suck it critics!! Aslan ROCKZ!! Even Mudpuppy thinks so!!

[RobLV1]

Aslan, you are absolutely right... it all depends on your goals. When someone throws an honor score using a plastic or urethane bowling ball, I will be the first to contratulate him (or her). I know that for a league bowler, that 300 game is going to be a memory that will last a lifetime. I also know that the bowler will never be able to compete in a tournament on a sport shot, because he can't adjust, but that's O.K., because he'll probably never even want to bowl on a sport shot. Keep in mind that we, the bowlers, didn't invent the modern game, the bowling centers and the ball manufacturers did. Try to outbowl a bad ball reaction as much as you want, you won't: guaranteed!

[tccstudent]

Aslan, you are absolutely right... it all depends on your goals. When someone throws an honor score using a plastic or urethane bowling ball, I will be the first to contratulate him (or her). I know that for a league bowler, that 300 game is going to be a memory that will last a lifetime. I also know that the bowler will never be able to compete in a tournament on a sport shot, because he can't adjust, but that's O.K., because he'll probably never even want to bowl on a sport shot. Keep in mind that we, the bowlers, didn't invent the modern game, the bowling centers and the ball manufacturers did. Try to outbowl a bad ball reaction as much as you want, you won't: guaranteed!

Why cant you throw plastic or urethane on a sport shot or at a tournament.
I have a few friends that was bowling at the PBA regional in Lubbock around July and one cashed pretty high throwing urethane lofting the gutters. the others said they lanes were so dry half the people there were throwing plastic.