This isn't about telling Walter Ray he's wrong, no one has suggested his bowling doesn't work for him or that we should all strive for the modern release.Originally Posted by Hammer
Words have meanings.
This thread had a purpose, and if you choose to engage it at face value it was about a question. A very specific question.
If we're wondering if WRW is "behind the ball" what does that mean? If his hand is on the side and top of the ball at release, is it both right and wrong to say he's "behind" it? Not to me. I've never met a coach (until this thread) who would argue being above the equator and at 45 degrees would qualify as "behind".
Why should I respect someone's opinion who looks at England and says it's on the southern hemisphere? Is it polite and civil to just say "Ok, you win, you speak authoritatively and have preceded your opinion with reasons why your eyes work better than mine so therefore all you say is right..."??
It might be, but this is a discussion forum not a prim & proper social circle and I'm not interested in Victorian manners. If you speak authoritatively on a subject, I'd suggest you be right....and it's even more imperative that you don't tell me that a man with his hand on top of a ball is putting it behind it. I'm not blind, and neither are any of you.
So if you want to swallow that kind of nonsense out of respect, then by all means knock yourself out. I have very little patience for that kind of hubris and condescension.
Rob is knowledgeable on many subjects to do with bowling, but he's whiffing thin air on this one.
Last edited by swingset; 04-02-2014 at 11:24 AM.
It's certainly obvious that you are not interested in Victorian manners. We had a difference of opinion, and I gave mine based on the fact that I have observed and analyzed thousands of releases over the years. Does that make my opinion right? Of course not, but it's still my opinion, and the fact that you don't agree with it doesn't mean that I am "whiffing thin air on this one," it just means that you disagree with me.
We need to get Walter Ray here himself to tell us what he did in the video. Does he have a FACEBOOK or TWITTER account? Maybe we can get an email address. Maybe I will take a look at this video and see what is really happening.
Arsenal: Raw Hammer Orange/Black Hybrid 14lbs, Blue Hammer urethane 14lbs, Columbia 300 Lava Ball Plastic 14lbs, Highest scratch series 710 Bowling 38 years Never hit that 300 game. Highest game 276, had 11 strikes and one spare in the middle of that game.
I am with you on this one Rob. I looked at that video posted by swingset and I stopped the action as he comes to the beginning of the release area and he is behind the ball. As he goes through the release area his hand does turn some just like guys with the modern swing which is right for a release area ending. Depending on the lane conditions a pro will stay
behind the ball to cut down on hook. So depending on the lane the turning of the hand can go from zero degrees no turn to
90 degrees which is the suitcase turn. I think the release that he is using is because he is playing between the one and five board. If he was playing deep from the left gutter and throwing right he would probably have to stay more to the inside of the ball at the beginning of the release. Does he ever play deep though? Maybe he is just a down and in guy no matter what.
Arsenal: Raw Hammer Orange/Black Hybrid 14lbs, Blue Hammer urethane 14lbs, Columbia 300 Lava Ball Plastic 14lbs, Highest scratch series 710 Bowling 38 years Never hit that 300 game. Highest game 276, had 11 strikes and one spare in the middle of that game.
Settle down boyz.
Also: I'm acting moderator since Bowl1820 is taking a break.
The above sentence is completely false and I give myself one infraction for being a liar....and another infraction for calling myself a liar.
Hammer: I pointed it out because I AM struggling with my release and I tend to release the ball kinda like WRW does in terms of form. But...as I was quick to point out....WRW is absolutely exceptional at so many aspects of his game...that even if I copied him...it doesn't make me WRW. The can hit a piece of lint at 10ft 4 out of 5 times.
Swingset: I LOVE Swingset...because, like me, he's fearless and willing to challenge even the "elite" on the website if he feels they are mistaken. That type of thing may not be tolerated on "other" bowling sites (that shall not be named) but I appreciate it. It makes for a better end product and a better understanding when we can all question each other without being told, "Shut it...he's the expert, you're just a schlub...so be more gracious." I love Rob...I read all of his stuff online, I've learned SO much from it and his lesson he gave me in Vegas has so far really helped my game. But I don't think blindly blowing smoke up his (insert word that will get me an infraction) does him or anyone else any good. Guys like me and Swingset and even an occasional MWhite...if we do nothing else...we remind Rob of some areas where his beliefs "might" be challenged and that allows him to look at those areas, give them a second glance, and decide if maybe he needs a little more work on them or maybe just explain them differently. It's not an attack on him personally...it's not even a disagreement with his beliefs/methods...it's just conversation and discussion.
Rob: Obviously theres something to the modern release. I just watched a really cool video on youtube showing everyone from Mika to Mike Fagan and to see them throw, behind the ball, ring finger, etc...as effortlessly and repeatably and successfully....it really made me think about continuing to develop that type of release. But then I watch some of my old videos (go to the "videos for noeymc" thread for a new slow motion complilation) and I see the ball head down the lane....with what looks like a great release (in terms of rotation and movement)...at 15-21mph....the pins exploding...and I think..."am I giving up on something special to try and be somebody I'm not?"
But it all comes down to the orignal question. If that guy in THAT video...WASNT WRW....and was "Tom D. Williams" from Chilton, Wisconsin...a 147 average bowler who's claim to fame is that he once killed a mouse with a bowling ball during league play when it ran across the lane at exaclty the wrong time....would we "praise" his approach/release?? Cuz I look at it and I think, "wow. Hand doesn't appear to stay behind the ball, he seems off balanced, his balance leg doesn't stay on the lane, etc... This guy is a MESS!" But he's not a mess....he's not Tom D. Williams....he's best or 2nd best bowler that ever lived (3rd if you're Chris Barnes eliteist, or 3rd/4th if you're a Belmonte lover).
It's interesting...thats all. It's not meant to start a fight. It's just an interesting release in this modern era. And to Rob's credit...and as Bowl1820 has mentioned once or twice before....perhaps what allows that release to be effective for WRW....is WRW has a level of accuracy/experience that allows him to do things the rest of us can't or shouldn't. As much as I want to be WRW...I currently am trying to have a more "modern" release...because I'm not WRW. Maybe I change my mind down the road and decide the "modern release" is for the birds and develop my own "pro style"...but until then...like I told Rob...I'm a "sponge" (not a female contraceptive...although, well, nvm)...I take in tidbits and info and suggestions and teachings and preachings and observations....and I try everything! A little of this, a little of that...as long as I keep getting better....thats all that counts.
Next Up? Rob's ring finger concept....and Shockley's "underhand football" concept. Now that I got my approach and timing and loft and speed and accuracy improved...the release needs some attention. I know Rob preaches that the ball does the work by itself....but I've watched the ball do the work by itself...and my bowling balls are lazy ****s! If I don't have a good release...they don't do a DANG thing!! Except sail into the 3-pin and leave a wonderful 1-2-4-10. Friggin balls.
In Bag: (: .) Zen Master Solid; (: .) Perfect Mindset; (: .) Brunswick Endeavor; (: .) Outer Limits Pearl; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 192; Lifetime Average = 172;
Ball Speed: 14.7mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 198
Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!
Where do you find this video of WRW? I saw your other video you posted of WRW and watched that. At the top of his backswing is he behind the ball or slightly on the side of it as in this picture? Playing as close to the gutter as he is if he stayed to the inside of the ball to the beginning of the release area he would probably have his ball rolling nicely down the gutter. That would be a good shot for getting dead wood out of the end of the gutter.Well, I don't have a magical coaches eye, but I do have a pause button and the ability to screen capture.
Thumb is just starting to exit the ball here, he's above the equator and already coming around the side of the ball.
Not behind in any way, shape, or form.
But feel free to tell me what I'm not seeing.
Arsenal: Raw Hammer Orange/Black Hybrid 14lbs, Blue Hammer urethane 14lbs, Columbia 300 Lava Ball Plastic 14lbs, Highest scratch series 710 Bowling 38 years Never hit that 300 game. Highest game 276, had 11 strikes and one spare in the middle of that game.
I found the Thailand video that you show in one of your replies. When you reach the one minute mark of the video they show him throwing the ball from a different angle that swingset shows in his reply. After doing stop action at the beginning of the release area to me it looks like he is behind the ball. After that point his hand does turn and his fingers are above the equator of the ball because his thumb is coming out
and the ball is coming off of his hand at the end of the release area. So swingset is right with the pic he shows in his reply. But before Walter
Ray reaches that spot he is like every other pro behind the ball as he is entering the release area.
The action in the release area happens so fast that you go from behind the ball to the hand turned slightly and the fingers above the equator
as the thumb is coming out because the ball is being let go and the fingers do go from below the equator to above the equator. So all of those actions do happen as you cycle through the release area. So as I said swingset is right as far as the photo he shows from the Thailand video.
Link for Thailand video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAQj2H1u25U
Last edited by Hammer; 04-02-2014 at 09:17 PM.
Arsenal: Raw Hammer Orange/Black Hybrid 14lbs, Blue Hammer urethane 14lbs, Columbia 300 Lava Ball Plastic 14lbs, Highest scratch series 710 Bowling 38 years Never hit that 300 game. Highest game 276, had 11 strikes and one spare in the middle of that game.
As I said earlier in the thread. WRW is certainly capable of putting his hand behind the ball (at release, which is the only place it matters), but he is not putting it there in the videos we displayed. By the time his thumb is starting to come out of the ball, he's well up and to the side.
If you want to argue your way into sorta, kinda, if you turn your head just right, and for a millisecond....then knock yourselves out. But, I'd bet my life's savings if WRW wasn't who he was, and showed up at Slowinski's place for a lesson, he'd not be saying "Great job, Walter, you're behind the ball just like I want you to be".
I think if he was an unknown and showed his video online for criticism, we'd say the same thing, and we'd say "sure coming up hard at the line, and not posting your shot very well either".
And, we'd all be right. Except he's WRW and has the titles to prove you can get the job done without conforming to a rote set of mechanics.
What has to be agreed upon is a standard point in the release to reference from. If we can pick any point in the swing, then Pete Weber's hand is completely on the inside of the ball and his palm faces the right wall. This is true at the top of his back swing. Somewhere coming down he gets to straight behind the ball and as his thumb exits he is very much on the side of the ball. I accept "as the thumb exits" as a reasonable standard position to reference from (unless, like myself, the thumb isn't in the ball ever).
So from my point of view Walter Ray is not behind the ball at the release point.
Ball speed: 17 - 18.5 mph Rev rate: 400ish
PAP 6 1/8" over 1/4" up
13° axis tilt / 30°-60° axis rotation
Thumbless bowler
High game: 300 High series: 804 High average: 217
Good point. Thats something that frustrates me about bowling is, if you're good...and you have a high average....and have bowled in a couple USBC events (or higher)...no matter how "wrong" (and I'm using that term loosely) you are....you can say you're right. And to some degree....thats how it "should" be. If you can win...who cares if you throw it underhand or 2-handed or 6mph?? If Earl Anthony was alive...and he still threw super old school....who the **** has the nerve to tell him he should do it differently?? On the other side of the coin....shouldn't bowlers kinda learn a "right" way?? And just because a guy does it well....doesn't mean he does it right??
And THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER. I can see BOTH sides of that arguement.
And it hits home with me personally because my first coach taught me a high speed/loft approach. Most consensus bowlers (on this site and elsewhere) agree that he's not teaching the "right" way. But he would argue that he's bronze certified USBC, has been bowling competitively for 25+ years, and carries a 200+ average...so why listen to a 160-180 average bowler on the internet??
So again...interesting discussion...meant to be interesting/thought provoking; but no right or wrong answer per se.
In Bag: (: .) Zen Master Solid; (: .) Perfect Mindset; (: .) Brunswick Endeavor; (: .) Outer Limits Pearl; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 192; Lifetime Average = 172;
Ball Speed: 14.7mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 198
Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!
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