Gee, RobLV... Way to encourage people to participate freely in the forum conversation!
There are lecturers, graders and teachers.
Lecturers tell you what they think you're supposed to do.
Graders tell you what they think you're doing wrong.
Teachers tell you how to make changes, so you are doing less things wrong.
True teachers are rare.
Gee, RobLV... Way to encourage people to participate freely in the forum conversation!
Last edited by rv driver; 05-27-2014 at 09:38 AM.
I figure he was talking about the previous post just wanted to be sure.Originally Posted by rv driver
You actually were...I was surprised!
Well put. I admit, I suck as a teacher. I keep trying to "teach" my daughter to bowl...and it just isn't working. And I get too frustrated.
I see where Rob is coming from...but yes, that IS a drawback of a forum like this.
I know most people thought I was kidding...but I REALLY DO think we could alleviate some of these issues if we had a section where only bronze, silver, gold, or former PBA pros could respond. Or maybe an area where only those with a verified average over X. If we don't...and people ask for general advice...they will get general advice from everyone. Some of that advice may be valuable, some may be useless, and some may actually be counter-productive.
If we DON'T go to that type of system (which we won't), then I think Rob needs to just give the best advice he can, give his credentials, and if challenged make solid arguements. It's then up to the bowler asking for advice to decide which advice to take, which advice to consider, and which advice to ignore.
Welcome to the internet folks.
In Bag: (: .) Zen Master Solid; (: .) Perfect Mindset; (: .) Brunswick Endeavor; (: .) Outer Limits Pearl; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 192; Lifetime Average = 172;
Ball Speed: 14.7mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 198
Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!
This thread brings up some very interesting and complex issues. Yes, the idea of an internet "forum" encourages everyone to share their views. Unfortunately, when it comes to asking for and/or giving advice to help improve ones game, how are bowlers to know who to listen to? I apologize to rv driver for my curtness, however, this subject obviously hits a nerve with me. I've personally witnessed well-meaning, very high average bowlers give advice to others that was not only useless, it was actually detrimental. I know of at least one bowler who actually decided to quit the game because of some ill-conceived advice.
I think that a large part of the problem in coaching bowling is the process by which coaches are certified. In golf, if you want lessons you go to a PGA Teaching PROFESSIONAL. These are professional golfers who choose to specialize in coaching either because it's where their true passion lies, or simply because they are not good enough at playing the game themselves to compete at a professional level. In bowling, coaches are certified by the USBC, the organization to which virtually every league bowler in the country belongs. As USBC Certified Coaches, we are just that. We are not considered to be Coaching Professionals by the simple fact that it is the USBC and not the PBA that is doing the certifying.
Aslan is correct when he says that it's up to the individual who is asking for the advice to determine who to listen to and who to ignore. I have just one question. What criteria is the individual supposed to use to determine what advice to follow?
Very intriguing debate - not. Lost me at hello. But what I glean from all this:
Cliff Notes: Aslan has a kid?!?!??!?! Is there a law against such an atrocity? Now I am going to have to have 10 more kids to offset the damage to the gene pool.
I've also known board-certified physicians to injure and kill patients. I've known certificated pilots to put passengers and others in harm's way. I've known ordained ministers to drive people away from their faith and their sanity. I've known certified teachers to screw up students for life. I've known certified chefs to serve bad food and make people sick. And I'd be willing to bet that there has been more than one certified bowling coach to put aspiring players off the game with bad coaching.
If you think "certified" means anything other than the cheap paper it's printed on, you've got another think coming. Which doctors, pilots, clergy, teachers and chefs are we supposed to trust, then? What criteria do we use? I think most people are savvy enough to use their own noggin when it comes to taking advice -- "certified" or not.
The fact is, dear Coach, this isn't a "Certified USBC Coaching Center" -- it's (supposed to be) a friendly and open internet forum. Friendly, useful, useless, bad, great advice is expected and encouraged here -- just as it is in the open bowling centers where similar exchanges happen all the time. That's because this is a place to meet and banter -- not a place for serious coaching (until such a forum is added to this site). I apologize for having upset your bowling/coaching sensibilities with my friendly (and honest, BTW) posting. That's not what this forum is about.
I do have to say that your commentary in post #20 has done nothing to further endear me to the sport of bowling (which I've loved for a long, long time). It's also really done nothing to add to the conversational topic of the thread. Here's a suggestion: instead of bashing people for doing what they're expected to do here and running them down as useless and not worth listening to, making the thread all about protecting the sanctity of credentials, maybe you could impart some of your great bowling/coaching wisdom by pointing out exactly what points you disagree with in my post, and then give more correct information in contrast to it. THAT would help the OP improve his game by better addressing possible issues, and help me in the bargain (which is what a coach is supposed to do) by putting better concepts in my head. (And it wouldn't tick me off and make me feel like a stupid heel, which is always good). By discussing good and bad concepts in juxtaposition, better light is shed on our common mistakes and misconceptions. Isn't that what a "great teacher" does?
As a point of fact, I'd be very interested to hear how you disagree with my post (so long as it's respectful); I'm always up for learning something good -- just not up for being "put in my place."
I think you've had your limit.
As to the debate...I actually think certification does matter to some degree. Any time someone goes through that process, they are going to learn things that everyone else may not. How valuable is it in the end? Hard to say. You'll find non-certified guys who have been bowling for 40 years that might give you some of the greatest advice ever...and there are bronze certified coaches that just got the certificate so they can attract more people to their pro shop. But on AVERAGE...I think you listen to the certified folks over the non-certified folks.
I try to only offer advice if I see something in someone's game that I used to struggle with or still am struggling with. Not so much as "instruction" as "comiseration". But if they have an actual technical question...no matter what my "opinion"...I'd defer them to Rob, Bowl1820, or vdub. Rob is a credentialed instructer, Bowl1820 is a wealth of knowledge, and vdub is walking the walk. Does that mean I agree with everything they say...no. Not because they are wrong...just because some things don't fit my game and some things my game isn't ready for.
I know eventually I'll have to improve my release to get more revs. If I want to get to the next level...thats a given. Release is the single most important thing (just ahead of timing). But right now I need to master slowing my speed down and my accuracy. Trying to develop a modern release or go back to my high loft/post to the ceiling release...isn't going to do me any good if I can't hit my spot with accuracy or get my speed under control. So...I work on little things...I practice a lot...I watch a lot of film...and I try to stay focused. Can't improve everything all at once. When I feel like I've mastered these couple items...time to go visit Rob for lesson #2 and have him give me some more things to work on. Who knows...maybe some day I'll be ready for that "modern release" I keep hearing so much about. But until then...I got enough to work on.
When I commented on Rob's instruction...it was simply to clarify. Because I KNOW FOR A FACT that when Rob first gave ME that advice (stop trying to make it hook, keep your hand behind it, it'll hook on it's own)...I threw it straight into the right gutter because I left my hand behind the ball and rolled it directly over the thumb hole straight as an arrow. And if Amyers tries Rob's advice...word for word...THAT is what will happen (especially with an older ball or symmetric core, non-aggressive ball). And what will Amyers think? "That Rob guy is full of it!" But "that Rob guy" isn't "full of it"....he just didn't explain it very well.
I know it's frustrating RV. Believe me...I've been told by more than one person that my "opinions" are "dangerous"...which I think is rediculous given I can't fathom ANY BOWLING ADVICE being "dangerous" unless it involves suspending a ball a great distance above one's head and dropping it. I've also been routinely mocked for having "a lot of opinions for someone with not a lot of average/experience". But...it's okay. Some of these guys average 190-210 and have been bowling 35 years. I should be averging 190 after bowling less than 2. And I use every insult as a source of motivation. I'm not just focused on getting better...I'm focused on proving a lot of haters wrong.
I agree.
I'd still be really interested in seeing what Rob has to say about my observations. I feel like I could learn something if he'd give me the opportunity.
rv driver: Fair enough. Here goes:
Here's my 2-cents' worth. I'm not a coach, but I used to be a bowler with an average just shy of 210. On your first step, the ball ought to be on its way down. The ball and the first step should move in tandum, with the ball being moved in an outward direction, not upward. An upward direction in the pushaway creates two bad effects: late timing and muscle in the swing that can only be detrimental.
By the end of your second step, the ball should be approaching the apex of your backswing. Ball should be by the ball side leg at the end of the second step.The ball reaches the full height of the backswing at the end of the third step.
All of that is late, which means that your forward swing and release are late. When that happens, all your weight is being balanced on your left foot,but you've got a lot of late weight movement (arm, shoulder, body carry-through and ball) coming forward after your left foot is already planted. The slight pause at the beginning of the push away, combined with the upward motion of the push away and the resulting muscle in the swing is causing the late timing.
That will cause a rotation around that planted foot in the direction of the movement. If you were looking at yourself from a top view, you would see your shoulders moving counter-clockwise around the axis of your left foot. That's what's throwing you off balance and causing you to pull your shot to the left. When the bowlers slide foot reaches the line before the ball does, a natural reaction is to pull the bowling shoulder forward to help the ball to catch up. This is called "late timing trying to be early." This often leads to pulled shots, and general inconsistency in terms of hitting the intended target.
If you did a few things (in my humble view): 1) bring the motion of your throwing arm into congruity with the motion of your left foot as it takes its slide step, When the motion of the ball (the motion of the throwing arm should be free of muscle and totally dependent on the momentum of the ball's motion) is "brought into congruity with the slide step," the bowler has corrected his timing. This is easier said than done, but a good exercise that I often recommend is to concentrate on posting every shot at the line. In order to post the shot, the timing must be correct, and it's often easier for a bowler to kind of back into a timing correction by concentrating on the finished result - posting the shot.
2) set your weight back just a hair behind your left toe (which requires more knee bend) your weight and momentum wouldn't be thrown counter-clockwise around your left foot, causing your weight to come forward of your balancing left foot, over the foul line, 3) put your left arm out in front of you on your backswing (thus putting your left shoulder slightly ahead of your throwing shoulder). and 4) put a bit more slide into your slide step, you would counterbalance the weight, offset the momentum of your shoulder, and release the ball on time. One of the first things that coaches are taught during the Certification process is that by introducing more than two or, at a maximum, three things for the bowler to work on at one time you run the risk of causing massive confusion and doing the bowler more harm than good. In this particular case, I believe that the bowler would benefit the most by: 1) Making sure that the ball moves in an outward, not upward, direction in tandum with the first step, 2) Posting each shot at the line to correct late timing, and 3) Rolling the ball rather than throwing the ball to further encourage neutral timing by discouraging a muscled pull of the ball as it is thrown down the lane.
Last edited by bowl1820; 05-27-2014 at 08:04 PM. Reason: broke up wall of text to improve readability
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