RAW talent vs Coaching

[MICHAEL]

Raw talent vs Best Instructions in the world! I am not knocking bowling knowledge, and instructions at all, BUT I think it can only take you SO FAR! That's when the Raw Talent of the individual comes to play!

I know many bowlers that have never had ONE lesion in their life, and have 220 and above averages. I know instructors all over this board are Flipping out with that statement, but I know it to be true. I bet on league night if I were to ask how many have ever had instructions from a Bronze level or above instructor,,, 5 percent would say yes, and out of that group several on my Monday league have above 220 averages... we had 6 300, and several 800 last fall! Including me,,LOL 780 and 300. I didn't do it because of coaching, or youth being 65! LOL (

I am not saying that coaching is a waste of money, but it will only take you to a slightly higher level! (IF YOU DON"T HAVE THE mind body physical connection,,, YOU WILL never be a 220 plus bowler. Golf the same!!! RAW Talent will always score higher then best coached golfer.

I am looking for the day that Aslan with all his Coaching reaches that 220 pentacle,,,, will he make it...... I don't think so, but it won't be for lack of coaching! His main problem is HE NEEDS A WOMAN!! Then everything else will work out!!

STATEMENT: Coaching does HELP! Can it make you a 220 average bowler, maybe, but not likely for most bowlers. NO,,, that's where the physical, hand, eye, legs, balance GIFT come to play.

I know many coach's around here, that do NOT HAVE 220 averages,,, Rob how about you? Knowledge is JUST one part of what can get you to that pentacle, but without RAW TALENT, Forget=about-it!! (

[RobLV1]

For the past several years I have averaged in the mid to high 190's. This was a problem, not in my mind, but in others minds who thought that my lack of bowling ability indicated a lack of coaching ability. Late last year I started working with a new coach who was actually able to help me to fix my footwork. Where others failed, he succeeded. I ended up booking 203 this year, and have averaged over 207 for 500+ games in several different bowling centers since the beginning of January. This month I am averaging over 210. The sad thing is that I don't know any more now than I did before my bowling improved, but suddenly people here locally are beginning to seek out my guidance. Does coaching work? You betcha!

[Amyers]

I don't know about this I believe everyone has a floor you can only be so bad at anything every one has a ceiling most of us not matter how hard we try, practice, and receive great coaching advice will only go so far. I really don't believe at my age even though twenty years ago I was considered really good that I will ever make the PBA tour and even if I had not been off for the last twenty years that I would have made it then but I do believe with good coaching and a solid effort on my part I will get back to whatever my ceiling is faster than I would have just doing it on my own.

[Aslan]

Iceman makes some good points...but as usual in his brief moments between acid flashbacks...I can't say I agree with everything.

For example;
Does instruction help?
YES! BELIEVE ME...I started out in August 2013 with a 121 average, no knowledge of lateral movement, no understanding of bowling balls, and no technique to speak of. After ONE lesson...I was a 140s bowlers and knew all the basics. After TWO lessons I was a 160s bowler and a value to my team. After THREE lessons...my average has climbed into the 170s and I'm picking up over 70% of my singe-pin spares.

Ice...instruction shows you where your holes are (in your game, not yur head)...and gives you a lot of food for thought on how you might want to change one thing or another to help you. If you (like many bowlers) are too PROUD to ask for advice or admit you're not the greatest bowler ever (on pure talent)...then you will never GROW past what you are. And no matter how high your average is...if it's not being tested at the USBC open or in PBA events or even ABT events...it's meaningless. Yes....MEANINGLESS. Right now...you're the best basketball player at your local YMCA. And all the 8th graders you play against sing your praises. BUT...until you join a Gus Macker tournament...maybe try out for a real team...you're only as good as the next best player at your YMCA. And you aren't getting BETTER...because how could you!!? You're already GREAT! You're a LEGEND in your own mind....there's no room for improvement.

Aslan just needs a woman.
Disagree...and I'll tell you why in the next example.

You NEED some natural ability.
TRUE...and here's my example;

My work buddy...I've tried to get him into bowling with me. At first, he was Gung Ho about it. But he wasn't "good". And no matter how many times I tried to help...even after a lesson with a pro...he's still not good. He doesn't stand in the right place....he doesn't know what he's aiming at...30% of his shots just go in the gutter. He has LESS natural ability...then the average child. ANd I can't help him. I don't think anyone can help him!! You tell him to line up in one place...he lines up somewhere else. You tell him to aim for an arrow on the right side...his ball is in the left gutter!

AND....he recently found a woman!! And did that HELP his game!?? NOPE. Now he cares even LESS that he sucks at bowling...because he's got a horny lady friend competing for his time. Tonight, he canceled on the bowling team...because he'd rather miss out on bowling and pay the sub to play...so he can go to Disney Land on a date with his lady friend. Is it his first ever trip that he just couldn't pass on!!? Nope. He's been there 50 times, has a season pass.

H Word (that rhymes with LOWES <----quality building center) before Bros apparently!

See Ice. No coach can help you...because you're a LEGEND. And so long as you can live in that tiny world...that 1-2 centers...that THS shot beer league...there's ZERO reason to ever try to get lessons and get better. You're a LEGEND. They will write stories of you in the local paper. Now...when I'm bowling with vdub in Reno...against actual elite bowlers...and struggling to learn and get better...you "may" think that I'm a fool for doing so. Perhaps that I should instead just stay in my own center and bask in the glory of a 207 average!!

But THAT is where we differ. If there is no mountain left to climb...I'll find a new sport. When I started running...I ran in 5Ks to WIN...not just to "participate". I was running 7k every DAY!! What "glory" is there in "participating"?? And if bowling becomes me patting myself on the back for being a local "legend"...and "poo-pooing" those that are taking lessons to get better...because I'm such a natural talent....then I have OVERSTAYED my welcome as a bowler and it's time to find something a bit more challenging.

[classygranny]

Well stated Aslan!

[Stormed1]

Where coaching with show its benefits more is on sport shot and just challenging conditions. On todays house shots you have tons of "spray and pray" bowlers averaging over 200 those same people on a challenging condition and they struggle to average 180. Proper technique and knowledgeable play will win out most of the time over just raw talent

[Aslan]

Well stated Aslan!

Hopefully it wasn't "too harsh" to Iceman. I didn't mean it to be. And I DO agree with him that bowlers need some of that natural skill if they're going to become elite…it can't be ALL lessons.

BUT…I see FAR too many bowlers in house leagues that the ink they are God's gift because they can roll a 212 every game in a house they've played at exclusively for 14 years. And when you mention tournaments or scratch leagues in other houses…they make excuse after excuse and claim they don't have time for that and just bowl "for fun". But it's NOT that. It's FEAR and EGO. It's PRIDE and VANITY. They don't want to walk into a house and bowl a 175…they can't take that.

Does that mean I think it's fun to bowl a 175?? HECK NO! I hate bowling under a 180. There's times I consider quitting altogether because I get so dang frustrated. Felt the same way about golf. Felt the same way about running. Felt the same way about hockey. Because I get frustrated too easily. But I'd rather bowl on a USBC pattern and realize I'm more of a 180 bowler than a 210 bowler…and work to improve…than to sit back and brag that I'm a 220 bowler with 7 300-games.

In high school, our PE teacher used to call kids like that; "Gym Class All-Americans"…because in gym class they'd tear it up no matter what the game…kickball, dodgeball, races, lacrosse, basketball, etc… But they'd never play organized sports. They'd never put on a uniform and attend practices. They were legends as long as they didn't need to prove it.

[RobLV1]

Yesterday I had the unique opportunity to coach at a USBC clinic alongside Carolyn Dorin-Ballard, Wendy Macpherson, Dave Wodka, and Jimmy Calahan. It was a very interesting experience for me as it was the first multiple-coach clinic in which I've participated. We worked with bowlers at a great range of levels with averages from 160 to 220 and ages from some college bowling team athletes to some senior citizens with some limiting physical issues. The clinic was held in conjunction with a special event, so the participants came from all over the country.

What I found fascinating was the wide variety of coaching styles and the way some of the atheletes were immediately comfortable with one coach over the others, yet said they gained something from everyone. As Dave Wodka and Jimmy Calahan are working ball reps for Ebonite and Storm, there were some very interesting discussion about bowling balls, aside from the physical instruction. Something that I found very interesting that you could do yourself was when they had one of the collegiate bowlers throw a shot with his bowling ball, then Wodka hit it by hand with a 1000 abralon pad before he threw it again. The difference in reaction was amazing! Next Calahan hit it again with a 3000 pad, and everyone could again see a visible difference in ball reaction. One thing that all of the pro bowler/ coaches had in common is that none of them have a single polished ball in their current arsenal. Food for thought!

[MICHAEL]

Ok, Aslan and granny! By the way I am a grandpa myself with no training, and do bowl at 4 different lanes,,, Two AMF's, Gladstone bowl and Retro in liberty. LOL

Good example, My son that NEVER BOWLED IN HIS LIFE, or even knew what a finger tip, ball was ended the season with a 185 average. He had a bunch of 600 series, and almost a 300 a couple times,,, 8 strikes in a role,,,, I think I posted a picture of it....! RAW TALENT!! NO COACHING,,, just a lot of advice from other bowlers on THAT LEAGUE, that never had instructions themselves.

YES everyone has a ceiling, Granny/Aslan,,, you both have had a LOT OF COACHING, I read about it on here all the time. LOL MY SON NONE?
What is are both your averages?

I REST MY CASE!

Hey, nothing wrong with coaching, and I am sure it can HELP! BUT as you yourself said, Man Without Woman, but lots of bowling balls, we all HAVE A CERTAIN CAPACITY that we will be dealing with, due to the RAW TALENT FACTOR!

My son that's 40, bowled his first season ever several 600 series, he is also ONE HELL OF A GOLFER! HE HAS the athletic Gift, that many don't have, and never will.

AS I SAID, I bowled on and inter-city-league with some SUPER GREAT bowlers, with high averages! I would always ask a lot of questions, and I can honestly say non,,, had coaching!

O sure,,,, people they bowled with through the years gave advice to them, but that would be the extent of their coaching... LOL

Many had very unique, VERY DIFFERENT deliveries but guess what????? IT WOKED FOR THEM! I am thinking of one right now, among many with high averages that had no coaching. that I bowled against last year,,, that has a 220-25 average.

Again,,,, COACHING is not a BAD THING, but its not a MAGIC bullet by any means. GIVE ME RAW TALENT ANYDAY!

Granny you have had a LOT OF COACHING,,,, we are about the same age,,,, so not being disrespectful, but are you a 200 plus bowler?

I bowl with a couple female bowlers on Tuesday night that have at this time. (one a 220 average, the other 200 plus) neither have had coaching!

AGAIN<<< LOL,,,, Is ICEMAN saying coaching is a bad influence on a bowler,,, LOL ,,, NO! BUT ,,,,,,, if you have the gift, like MANY I KNOW including my son, who almost had that 300 and a half dozen 600 plus games, ((((HIS FIRST SEASON EVER bowling))))) well I rest my case, and stand by it! ( HIS ONLY COACHING WAS FROM ICEMAN!! LOL ( AND I AM NOT A COACH!!) lol

[MICHAEL]

It can only take you soooooooo far!!

You all know Jason,,, my nemeses in Me vs Michael! He had a 231 average on a league we bowled on together this last year. LOL NO COACHING! JUST RAW TALENT!! Aslan you are absolutely correct in saying we ALL HAVE Ceiling, Limits that the best coaching in the world, (what ever that might be lol), can take you!

Some on house patterns especially, don't need any coaching, and do VERY WELL, as I have noticed bowing on that HUGE league as a back up last winter!

A Good Coach is a good thing for MOST,,, but if you have a HIGH AVERAGE and you have never been coached,,,,, ((((DON'T GET ONE LOL)))

They just might screw you up,,,, getting you into the " THINKING TOO MUCH MODE, like ASLAN!!!!" You can think TOO MUCH in my opinion! LOL